EPISODE SUMMARY

Guest: Doug McKnight - Montana Guide and Fly Designer (Livingston, Montana / currently at Blacksmith Lodge, Punta Herrero, Mexico)

In this episode: Streamer fishing expert Doug McKnight shares the 30-year evolution of his legendary Home Invader pattern and reveals counterintuitive tactics for targeting trophy brown trout in heavy water. Topics include baitfish imitation philosophy, material selection from pheasant marabou to Australian possum, slow presentations in fast currents and the pattern's versatility from trout to tarpon.

Key fishing techniques covered:

• "Do nothing" retrieve in screaming fast water
• Slow streamer presentations with sink tip lines
• Swinging streamers in heavy current
• Stop-and-go retrieve variations
• Articulated fly construction with two-hook systems
• Baitfish imitation across multiple species

Location focus: Yellowstone River, Paradise Valley Montana; Pennsylvania spring creeks and Delaware River; saltwater destinations including Mexico permit flats

Target species: Brown trout, smallmouth bass, stripers, tarpon (Home Slice variation), permit, peacock bass

Equipment discussed: Pheasant marabou, Australian possum fur, arctic fox tail, lead eyes, cree hackles, 7-8 weight rods, 250-300 grain sink tip lines, Berkeley wire for articulation, sargassum crab patterns for permit

Key questions answered:

• How to fish streamers effectively in heavy fast water
• Why slow retrieves work better than fast strips for pressured trout
• How to scale baitfish patterns from small to large species
• What materials create movement without excess bulk
• When to use bright versus natural color patterns

Best for: Intermediate to advanced anglers interested in streamer fishing philosophy, baitfish pattern design, big trout tactics in heavy water and adaptable fly patterns for multiple species

Marvin Cash00:00:04

Hey, folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Butcher Shop where the Meat Meets the Water. On this episode, Doug McKnight takes a break from permit fishing to break down one of his signature patterns, the Home Invader.We discuss its creation, how to fish it, how to tweak it, and much more.I think you're really going to enjoy this one, but before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items to make sure you don't miss a single episode of the Butcher Shop. Be sure to subscribe in the podcatcher of your choice.We're only distributing episodes on the Articulate Fly for a limited time, and if you like the podcast, please tell a friend and subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out. And finally, a shout out to our sponsor, Trout Routes.We all know streams are getting crowded, and chances are you're not the only one at your local access point. Get away from the crowds and busy gravel lots by using Trout Routes Pro.With over 350,000 access points mapped across 50,000 trout streams and much more, Trout Routes has all the data you need to help you find angling opportunities that others will overlook. Up your game and download the app today. Use code ARTFLY20.ArtFly20 all one word for 20% off of your Trout Routes Pro membership at Maps docked trout routes and a shout out to our friends at Schultz Outfitters.Schultz Outfitters is Southern Michigan's premier flying tackle shop, and the guys at Schultz Outfitters are some of the fishiest dudes on the planet. Book a day on the water, swing by the shop or check out one of their many classes taught by some of the best anglers and tires in the game today.Check them out@schultzoutfitters.com or give them a shout at 734-544-1761. Now on to our interview. Well, Doug, welcome to the Butcher Shop.

Doug McKnight00:01:48

Well, thanks for having me.

Marvin Cash00:01:50

Yeah, I'm looking forward to our conversation. You have to let folks know you're in a pretty exotic location. I think this is the most exotic location I've ever recorded a guest from.Why don't you clue people in?

Doug McKnight00:02:00

Well, we're totally off the grid outside for satellite Internet. We're in Blacksmith Lodge in Punta Herrera, Mexico.

Marvin Cash00:02:11

And how's the fishing been?

Doug McKnight00:02:13

It's been unbelievable. Not so much in how many fish we're catching, but how we're catching them.

Marvin Cash00:02:24

Super cool. And it's just permit, right?

Doug McKnight00:02:26

Well, there's big turf in here. There's plenty of bonefish and some gagger snook. I mean, it's. It's kind of the world of opportunity down here, for sure.

Marvin Cash00:02:37

Very, very cool. And so, you know, folks, last time we.We had the folks from SA on to talk about line design, we're kind of going back to the original format where it's one pattern, one fly designer, and all the questions. And so tonight, we're going to talk to Doug about the Home Invader.And, you know, Doug, if we step back in the time machine, you know, what was the hole in your fly box you were trying to fill when you started working on the Home Invader?

Doug McKnight00:02:59

Well, it wasn't necessarily a hole in the fly boxes. We're, you know, time absolutely anything and everything we can could. But, you know, certainly some. Some people doing some innovative stuff.You know, I grew up just outside of Philadelphia, so I was fishing for trout as an aspiring striper fisherman, and, you know, getting in the smallmouth, getting in the streamer fishing. And Bob Popfix was coming out with, you know, new innovative streamers that were using different materials than anybody else.I mean, you know, using wool, doing these wool head, sculpted flies that were, you know, I mean, looked exactly like bait fish. And I was getting into, you know, striper and small wild fishing and, you know, been all about catching minnows my entire life. And.And, you know, just where I worked, it was some materials on the wall and some materials that I had taken from a rooster pheasant, one of the last rooster pheasants that I shot in PA from my granddad's farm right before he sold it. And it kind of happened by accident. Yeah.

Marvin Cash00:04:30

Interesting. And so, you know, who are some of the kind of the anglers and tires that kind of inspired the design, in addition to Bob.

Doug McKnight00:04:37

Certainly Bob Clouser, you know, with the inverted, you know, lead eyes. I mean, talk about revolutionary stuff. I mean, a fly that swims upside down is essentially snagless that for sure.You know, plus what Bob Popovic was doing with, you know, New Jersey striped bass and bluefish and, you know, whatever. I mean, some of the stuff that he was coming up with, different materials, you know, tying with wool, you know, time with different hair, that was.That kind of got me going for sure.

Marvin Cash00:05:17

Yeah. I think the interesting thing about Popovic's is, you know, it's kind of. It's interesting because I've talked to other folks about this.I mean, he was figuring all this stuff out and literally, like, going to the hardware store right Right.And I can remember watching him tie those wool headed streamers and he literally was sitting in Edison and he had a tube of like, you know, silicone goop that you would buy, you know, at Home Depot or Lowe's.

Doug McKnight00:05:41

Right. And we still do that today. I mean, with what we're doing currently, I mean, none of that has changed.

Marvin Cash00:05:51

Yeah. I think some of the young kids are spoiled because I think they just order everything in a catalog now. Right?

Doug McKnight00:05:56

Well, I mean, yes, but if they knew about those other things that they need at the hardware store, they'd go to the hardware store if they knew. Yeah.

Marvin Cash00:06:05

It's kind of like trolling the craft shops for time materials.

Doug McKnight00:06:07

Right, right. 100%. It's all the same.

Marvin Cash00:06:11

Yeah. And so, you know, talk a little bit about kind of the bite trigger you were trying to kind of build into the home invader when you were designing it.

Doug McKnight00:06:19

Well, there was no epiphany as, as far as, you know, where I was going with a certain pattern. You know, I had certainly seen what, you know, my neighbor in New Jersey was doing with striped bass and I mean, other stuff.And he was imitating bait fish and I was imitating bait fish. And I was basically a kid crawling around in southeast Pennsylvania without a home trout stream to spend my time on.But yet the lower Yellowstone or lower Delaware river, which is smallmouth land, striper land, and a bunch of coarse fish and, you know, shad in the springtime.And if you go way up top, you know, it's trout land and where all these places meet, I. I kind of snuck onto this spring creek just north of my house where I lived, you know, 40 minute drive. And nobody fished this thing. And I would basically sneak in from where it met the Delaware.And you know, there was a paper company that owned the bottom end and I would sneak up there and trout fish that.And I would also catch smallmouth and I also caught stripers and saw some big stripers in there coming in and recon herd on what I wanted to catch with flies. So, you know, it was about imitating bait fish and minnows. And I knew it was in there, you know, black nose days, little sand, eastern sand arters.And, you know, I just had this wonderful material, you know, at my feet that I had killed and taken samples of from my grandfathers, which was the marabou off of a ring neck pheasant, off their, you know, their thighs, if you will. And there's not many blood marabou plumes on a rooster pheasant, but there's some.And, you know, got a couple of granddad's roosters on this property, you know, before he sold it. And I'm like, these are special feathers. I'm going to save them. These things are wonderful. I got to find a use for them.And at the same time, I was working for a dude, had a very small fly shop, a really shy, beaten nude named Ken shwam. And he had, you know, he went pegboard to organize his material. So he had all kinds of stuff hanging up. And he had a Australian.A full, fully tanned Australian possum skin just hanging up right behind the tine bench, hardly been trimmed on. And it's a beautiful skin, a beautiful fur. A lot like rabbit, but coarser and more translucent and just magical stuff.And the hide is super thin compared to rabbit. I mean, you can cut a strip off of this thing and wrap it, and there is no bulk at all.And dense, dense, translucent hair that goes all the way from graphite gray to peach to tan to rust, all in the same skin. And every single one of them is different.And honestly, it was looking at that and looking at this, and I'm like, we're going to do a tail of marabou instead of clouser eyes, and we're going to fill around the lead eyes with this fur, this beautiful fur. And we can control the color and make it just like the fucking minnows in this. In this creek. And I remember tying the first few.And we use cree hackles because, I mean, you know, anytime you're tying a trout fly and you can put a cree hackle in there, why wouldn't you? Because that stuff is solid gold. I mean, it's a genetic miscreant and super rare and super fun and super effective.And so we did ring neck pheasant hill maru out the back, lead eyes like a clauser, and fur around the lead eyes, and then cup in a couple hackles right over the top of the lead eyes with a little bit of flash. And I remember quite distinctly the brown trout in the spring creek that I'm not supposed to fish. I am poaching at this point, but I'm 18 years old.I can get away with this. And they came absolutely unglued for it. And we took it down to smallmouth land just downstream from there.I mean, just not even a mile and caught a bunch of smallmouth. And it's like, dude, we're imitating bait fish. This is what we're doing. And we got a good one.

Marvin Cash00:11:29

Very, very neat. Any Kind of materials as you kind of tinkered on the kind of the, I guess, quote, final design that didn't make the cut.

Doug McKnight00:11:36

Well, we're not set on the final design. I mean, just like any good work, it's a work in progress.But yes, instead of the Aussie possum, which only works really good for the small little natural creek ones, we started using different material, different marabou.You know, instead of the pheasant marabou, which you only get a couple of feathers per bird, you know, you can use turkey marabou and use whatever color you want to in whatever size you want to. You can get much bigger marabou there. And then, well, we need a bigger fur than Aussie possum. Well, what's the next best one?It's arctic foxtail or red foxtail or gray foxtail or even a coyote if you want to. And you can get as big as you need to with them. And it's not just a trout fly. It's not just small enough flights.It's any fish that wants the amino because you can scale it up or scale it down. You can put two hooks in it, you put one big hook in it and make it six inches long.

Marvin Cash00:12:43

And so, you know, if you are generally imitating bait fish, do you generally stick to kind of natural color combinations or do you kind of have natural and then kind of attractor color patterns you like?

Doug McKnight00:12:54

Oh, no, for sure. Definitely tractor color patterns too. You know my take on color trout fishing, maybe small Mount bash bass fishing.The dirtier the water, the birder I want the fly. The clearer the water, the more I want it muted, subdued. And that's where like that pheasant marabou, which is unbelievable stuff, you can get it.If you have a friend that shoots pheasants, get them to save you every feather that he can because it's solid gold, but you can do it in any color.

Marvin Cash00:13:33

Yeah.That's interesting because it makes me think with you being in Montana, not now, but normally bird season is coming up, so everybody needs to get their orders into their buddies. Right?

Doug McKnight00:13:44

Right.

Marvin Cash00:13:45

And we just started dove season too, so that's a good place to pick up a few feathers.

Doug McKnight00:13:50

Oh, my goodness. Absolutely.

Marvin Cash00:13:52

So you had mentioned a two hook variation. I know all of the tying nerds are going to want to know kind of your preferred way to secure that second hook.

Doug McKnight00:14:02

I would say for me, lately I haven't found a better way than some like 30 pound Berkeley wire and a couple of beads. And what do you want to do with those beads, you know, in between the two hooks. You know, I would say heavy.I mean, for me, where I fish, it's heavy because we're dealing with heavy, violent water. And that's where we do good. A fly that'll, you know, get down and stay down, track down and stuff.But, you know, you don't have to make it that heavy. But yes, there is definitely a two hook version of it.

Marvin Cash00:14:44

And do you have a preferred, like some preferred size configurations, front hook, back hook that you want to share with folks?

Doug McKnight00:14:50

You know, honestly, since the Kelly Gallup revolution as far as articulated flies, my flies have consistently gotten smaller since then. You know, back in the day, back 20 years ago when I was, you know, fishing my water, you had an advantage.With a bigger fly, you're showing them something different. And those days are gone. So everything is shrunken, small to where we're now not only tiny, but tiny and articulated. And that's fine.I mean, that's the way things go.

Marvin Cash00:15:29

Yeah. So you're tying like smaller stinger hooks on the back, right?

Doug McKnight00:15:32

Yes. Pair of sixes, pair eights, pair of lead eyes, you know, same rig, you know, 7, 8 weight, 250, 300 grain line.And trying to fish some heavy water on my river that is a consistent marker for good fishing. The heavier the water, the better. And you know, a fly that you can fish fast and you can fish slow.And what I mean by slow is like the fly has its own action whether you're stripping or not. Because there is an advantage to a slow moving fly in really, really fast water. Because I mean, think about it from the fish's perspective.You know, you're a 20 inch brown trout sitting and screaming fast water to get away from all the bullshit, right? Everything is a maelstrom at that point, right? And you're, you're seeing stuff in that fast water. You're sitting on a screaming fast stream scene.I'm sorry. And you know, everything's a blur.And here comes a dude fly fishing, throwing a streamer, maybe throwing an articulated streamer move, the single hook streamer and the flies moving fast in that screaming fast water that looks like a maelstrom, you might not see it, you might not catch it. And if you did, you might chase it. Oh, I gotta chase, right?But if you were in that same water with a fly that moved on itself and you were efficient, slow and you covered it more, you give that fish a chance to bite it and they're there. But the circumstances around where that fish Lives. And what you got to do to do it, you got to be.You need a slow moving fly that still looks good, still gets bit and you know, fly like the home invader that's got, you know, every single thing outside of the hook and lead eyes know the flash, the hackles, the marabou, the fur, they all move. It looks alive, like you can just drag it in the current. It looks alive.A fly that fishes good slow, there's a lot of trout, streamers and streamers in general that fish good fast. But does your fly fish good slow in those greasy spots where, you know, stuff gets bit?

Marvin Cash00:18:25

Yeah.It's interesting because I think a lot of times people don't understand, you know, the decision a big fish has to make to kind of, for lack of a better word, to swim up in the tornado to go chase up fly. And that makes it a lot harder. Right.

Doug McKnight00:18:37

And you know, particularly these days where I mean, these fish are premium and they're being fished too.And you know where those fish go when they're pressured, they get into extremely difficult spots, spots that you know you're going by and even a properly row drift boat, you know, I mean, maybe you get one cast in there, if you blink or make a cast in the wrong spot, you're. You're not even showing them the fly.

Marvin Cash00:19:12

Yeah, I've had some of those boat arguments before with guides. Right. Missing the shot.

Doug McKnight00:19:16

Sure, absolutely.

Marvin Cash00:19:18

Yeah.

Doug McKnight00:19:19

Because they saw it and maybe we didn't and you know, stuff gets sideways.

Marvin Cash00:19:23

Yeah.Or you find those like eddies where you're coming down a fast trough and you got to kind of cast back behind up, back behind the boat as you kind of come through and if you don't get it right, you're kind of screwed. So.

Doug McKnight00:19:33

Yeah, yeah. And, and honestly, I mean, my home fishery, it's. We have a lot of fast water on the Yellowstone, you know, in Paradise Valley and below.And when things get tougher, those fish move up and those move up spots. I mean, if you're not, if you're not at the top of the spot, you're not getting even 20% of it. And if they're in that back 20%, maybe you got a shot.But like if you didn't show it to them the whole way, I mean, that's what it takes these days to get one of these things.

Marvin Cash00:20:12

Yeah. It's amazing how much fishing pressure has increased.I mean, it's kind of crazy even we were talking before we started recording and you know, I'm always amazed now you Go.Kind of what I would consider late, like late September, October, and you go by Kelly's place on the upper Madison and they're like 25 boats dropping.

Doug McKnight00:20:29

Right.

Marvin Cash00:20:29

I mean, it's kind of nuts really.

Doug McKnight00:20:31

Right.

Marvin Cash00:20:33

But you know, back to the home invader.Tell me, you know, if you see some common mistakes people make when they tie the fly either way with the way they tie the eyes in or weight the fly or proportions or things like that that our time buddies would.

Doug McKnight00:20:45

Love to know, I would say the most common mistake is too much like fox hair or a possum hair. Whatever hair you want to tie it.I mean, you can tie it with whatever kind of hair you want to, but if you use too much, it, you know, clogs up the eye of the hook, makes the next step, which is tying the hackles and the flash in, you know, maybe a little bit more tough. And it really doesn't make a better fly to swim.You know, the more hair you put on there, the more it drags, the more you want it down in fast water, the more it stays up, you know.So, you know, it's not a super durable fly, you know, tied right, but it's, you know, a fly that'll get reasonably down and push some water and show that it's alive and something eaten, something for these fish to eat, you know.

Marvin Cash00:21:43

Yeah. Any tricks for like the way you like to secure the eyes you can share with folks?

Doug McKnight00:21:48

Yeah, for sure.Put down, you know, beat a Zappa gap and take some lead wire and put some lead wire down and then tie your eyes over that lead wire, you know, with a bunch of thread with the figure eight method and squeeze it down with, with definitely some Zappa gap is, is the way to go. I mean, head cement is great, but it's a, it's, it's a varnish. You know, where zap gap is, you know, pretty damn solid.

Marvin Cash00:22:16

Yeah. Super glue will set you free.

Doug McKnight00:22:17

Right, right.

Marvin Cash00:22:21

So, you know, it sounds like, at least on the Yellowstone, you generally like to fish the home invader in like the bottom third of the water column. Is that about right?

Doug McKnight00:22:30

Yeah, I mean, a lot of it depends on just the time of year and you know, when you're doing it.I mean, personally, when I get to do it a bunch, me personally is, you know, say late February through the beginning of runoff, you know, the beginning of mother's day cattle.So me personally, when I get to fish and get to do it with a sink dip line, you know, a 250 on a 7 weight or a 300 on a, on an 8 and you know, whatever size and color you know, you want to fish for the water you got.And we can be anywhere from, you know, a thousand cfs to six thousand cfs at that time of year and muddy and cold and 6,000 or cold and you know, 38 degrees and. But it's a magical time of year to fish and you know, really just depends.But generally the dirtier the water, the brighter I go, the clearer the water, which is generally the earlier part of that, you know, as we're coming out of winter, you know, the more natural lamb, olives, tans, blacks for sure in the wintertime. And then as we get more mud in the system, which is not a bad thing, mud is excellent.We just think the good mud, you know, maybe we're going more towards like a yellow or a bright olive or a brighter fly, you know, that that does better in the murky water.

Marvin Cash00:24:13

And what's your favorite leader setup?

Doug McKnight00:24:18

I'm usually fishing a sink tip with them. Not always, but usually.So, you know, 24 foot sink tip, you know, 250, 300 butt section, 15 pound maxima to whatever, you know, fluorocarbon tiff you want to 12 to 20 pound test. So the whole, you know, 3, 4 to 15, 20 pound maxima, 3 foot of whatever tippet you want to, you know, tied with loop knot. Pretty easy.

Marvin Cash00:24:50

Yeah, got it. And so, you know, we talked about you can fish the home invader fast, but it excels at slow.Talk a little bit about how you like to animate the fly when you fish your home waters.

Doug McKnight00:25:00

Well, I would say what I tell people when they climb in my boat the few times that I get, you know, good streamer fishermen in my boat, I would say the faster the water, the slower you want to move the fly.And when I say slow, if it's fast enough, cast it out there, get tight to it with that sink tip, get it down, you know, use the whole head of the line and just stay tied to it, let that fly swim. And I call it the do nothing. And we catch a lot of fish like that.If you're in some in between water that's maybe moving more moderate, moderate to medium slow, you know, fish those fast spots, you know, cover those seams, those good areas, and then it's a stop and go, you know, where you get it down, you get it to those good spots, you're tight to it. If you get a bit a bite, you'll feel it.And then, you know, maybe as you get a Little bit swing on the line, maybe the boat strip us moving a little bit slow.If you got a good rower and it's a stop and go at that point where you strip it a couple times, maybe sink it down a little bit more, strip back a couple times, all the way to the boat, all the way to where we have clear water and warmer water temperatures where the fish are more active and more up to chase. And when I say chase, sometimes the chase is you're just moving it too fast. And the reason they didn't bite it is because you're moving too fast.You mean it slower.But the times when they're, you're, you're moving at that medium speed and you're moving fish but you're not getting them maybe move it faster, maybe they want it faster.And certainly the warmer times of the year in clear water, there are times when you, you really want to be moving it pretty quick to show it it's real. Because if it's moving too slow and they have that much time to react to it, like that's not working.So it really just depends on the time of the year.But I would say, you know, if you have a fly that you can fish slow and be in the game, you're covering more water, you're taking advantage of situations and, and generally, you know, maybe that translates into a more bite or two.

Marvin Cash00:27:33

Yeah. And backing up to your, your do nothing retrieve. Are you swinging it almost like at the old school streamer way, or are you doing.

Doug McKnight00:27:40

Hell yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, you, you, you could take, you could take one of these flies.I mean, maybe instead of a single hook version where it's tied up front like a closer, maybe you'd want it in the back. You could swing up fish with this fly. For sure. It does. It swims on its own.

Marvin Cash00:27:58

Yeah.I was just trying to figure out if you were swinging or if you were maybe mending it to get it to kind of stall a little bit and actually not really move at all.

Doug McKnight00:28:05

100. Absolutely. Every time out of the drift boat, I'm, I'm trying to do that.

Marvin Cash00:28:12

Got it.

Doug McKnight00:28:13

And you know, it's interesting and also too, I mean, depends on the time of year. And there are times when I'm stripping, stripping that, you know, super hard, really moving it and moving it as soon as it hits the water.But there are a lot of times where I'm throwing it out there in a good spot, you know, using that sinking line and just getting down, getting tight and letting the fly do its Thing. Yeah.

Marvin Cash00:28:35

Very neat swing. Yeah, absolutely. You know, very neat. And it's interesting too, right, because, you know, we've had this tremendous evolution in fly lines, right.And I remember having this conversation with Russ about the peanut where, you know, you have so many more options to adjust the weight of the eyes and the fly and the lead wraps to tandem with the fly line.And, you know, I don't know if you tinker a lot with that or you, you know, deal with people that do, but I was kind of wondering if you could kind of give people thoughts about like, you know, use a heavier line, like maybe like a triple density line and maybe take some of the weight out of the fly or kind of things that they could play around with to get kind of different presentations for sure.

Doug McKnight00:29:14

And that's definitely all on the table. And in preface to that, I tie, you know, medium sized beach chain, single hook home invaders and do very well with them at certain times.Bright days, non bright days.And it's, it's, you know, definitely, definitely super important to have kind of, kind of everything, have everything from light to, you know, dredge stuff in your box and everything in between, because you don't know what it's going to be like out there.

Marvin Cash00:29:52

Yeah.And I think the interesting thing too, right, is you can almost get to a place where like, you have inherent jig action in the home invader, but you can also kind of fish it almost a little bit like a swim fly if you wait it lightly enough.

Doug McKnight00:30:04

And you know, that's honestly where that fly kind of shines is like when you're not doing too much to it, when you have just enough weight to it to get to the zone where you want to and you swim it. You know that that's where that fly shines.

Marvin Cash00:30:23

Yeah. Because I would assume, right, you give it slack and it's going to drop, right?

Doug McKnight00:30:28

Yes.

Marvin Cash00:30:28

Yeah. So you don't really need a lot of weight per se. Right.

Doug McKnight00:30:33

And dude, the other really cool. You know, 15 years ago, I started getting more and more into saltwater fishing and more and more in a tarpon fish. And that is certain respects.There's many facets of turpin fishing, many facets backcountry fishing. But at the end of the day, they're fish and bait fish. We're fishing bait fish. Right.Could we morph the home invader into a fly that would work really well for tarpon? And we did it.And instead of, you know, trout fishing, dealing with heavy current, we want some lead eyes on there to get under that current and you know, get tight where with a lot of turf and backcountry fishing, you know, it's a, it's a light fly, you know, you're fishing a heavy fluorocarbon shock tippet that'll drag your stuff down to a couple feet, you know, after a few strips. But generally speaking, most turpin flies, most backcountry flies for snook, whatever, they're weightless.And we effectively turned the home invader into one hell of a turp and fly. Enough to toot my own horn. But how many, you know, new turf and flies out there?I mean, the last real great one was like, you know, the, the tasty toad, Carrie Merriman, which is up on a level. I mean, I got to fish that thing before a lot of people knew about it. I was like, holy moly, this thing works.And you know, even, even with the, the streamer fishing that we did, trout fishing, smallmouth bass fishing, it's in a lot of respects the same thing. What other guys are doing, tarpon, you know, backcountry fishing, snook fishing, and boy, does it work.The difference is, you know, home invaders got heavy lead eyes. Home slice weightless fly, you know, plastic eyes, same format, but you know, home invader swims upside down, Clouser style.Home slice swims right side up with no weight. Equally effective and absolutely deadly.

Marvin Cash00:33:09

Got it.And so really, if we kind of zero in the fact that we're going to imitate bait fish, that really kind of tells tires everything they need to know to multi purpose the home invader for whatever non trout species you want to chase.

Doug McKnight00:33:20

Right, right. I've, I've tied them for peacock bass. I mean, if it eats a minnow, it will eat that fly neat.

Marvin Cash00:33:30

And so, you know, before I let you go this evening, you know, you know, I know, you know, it's been a while since you design the, the home and the home invader, but.

Doug McKnight00:33:38

30 years.

Marvin Cash00:33:39

Yeah, I was trying to be nice. Right.

Doug McKnight00:33:43

I'm not that old.

Marvin Cash00:33:44

Where. Well, we're, I think I designed it.

Doug McKnight00:33:47

When I was 2.

Marvin Cash00:33:47

Yeah, I, I think we're actually of a similar vintage. And I've actually got a birthday on Monday, but.

Doug McKnight00:33:53

Happy birthday.

Marvin Cash00:33:54

I appreciate that. The. But I'll.I know you guys are always like tinkering with stuff and playing with stuff, either whether you're trying to solve a tying problem or you've got a new material, big time. Yeah, there's a new fishing problem. Anything like that you want to share with our listeners?

Doug McKnight00:34:09

Well, I'm actually in Puno, Mexico right now and I'm fishing for permit at a new lodge. That's kickass. It's called Blacksmith. And so, I mean it's, it's been done a bunch before, but done with I don't think this kind of consistency.We're going permit fishing with dry flies and doing insanely well to the point of where I don't quite know what to do when it's my turn to fish.

Marvin Cash00:34:50

That's a, that's a good problem to have. You want to elaborate a little bit?

Doug McKnight00:34:53

Yes. So there's a lot of sargassum weed which is a free floating. It's not an algae, it's a leaf forming and flower forming organism.That open ocean and there are all kinds of critters that live in this sargassum out in the middle of the open ocean, nowhere near a permit flat. Maybe a marlin flood out in 3,000ft of water.But there's so much of it out there that during the summer months in the Gulf of Mexico this stuff piles up, you know, catches the trade winds and heads east towards Belize, Mexico, Bahamas, Nicaragua, Honduras, Mexico, all these places and it's full of food. There are indigenous shrimp and crabs that their only job is to live in the sargassum. And they look just like it. They are blended into this.And when these giant mats of weeds go into the shallow water, you know what the fish do? They start looking at it and start seeing food in it and start keying in on what's living in the sargassum.And it's to the point of where now I tie a lot of permit flies and a lot of saltwater flies. A lot of what I'm tying for a permit is geared around this sargassum.And you know, I had, I had done this for a little bit and heard some things like hey, wow, this is super impressive what you're doing. And this week just got to come down here to Mexico and experience it myself and it will quite frankly melt your face.You know, I've done a bunch of permit fishing with sinking flies, you know, where you're down and tight and working for the bite on the strip, you know, subsurface. And today we did nothing but fish a floating crab for permit and head fish come up and sh.It And I'm trying to wrap my head around it right now and I'll probably do better tomorrow, but today, who knows.

Marvin Cash00:37:38

Yeah, that's, that's awesome. Any kind of, you know, new materials or anything like that, you know, it's.

Doug McKnight00:37:45

It'S very much, much out there on the, you know, front, front part of the web. But, you know, 6 millimeter fly foam and a set of really good claws and legs to wear and eyes and antenna where that permit looks up.And I've seen it, I've never seen it before, but I've seen it a bunch in the past week since I've been there, where these fish, you know, just a permit cruising. I mean, 10 years ago we were all throwing merkins or maybe a different fly, same fish.And now we're throwing a fly that runs on top and moving a certain way and they're looking up and coming up and biting it. And a lot of times, unfortunately for me, in a shocking fashion, that leaves your mouth, you know, your, your bottom jaw on the ground and frozen.

Marvin Cash00:38:47

It's a good problem to have. Is there anything else going on you want to. Yeah, is there anything else going on you want to share with our listeners?

Doug McKnight00:38:53

Ah, not really, no. No, I don't think so.

Marvin Cash00:38:56

Got it. So you'll, you'll head back in a couple days and what kind of, you know, anchor in down in Livingston for fall and winter?

Doug McKnight00:39:03

Yes, yes. Finish, finish up the fall God season in Livingston. We don't have too much to go, you know, certainly looking forward to it.And then it's bird season and then, you know, it's wood split in time and, you know, and then we start the whole process over again, you know, after the first of the year.

Marvin Cash00:39:21

Yeah. So you enjoy actually having Livingston to yourself for a few months, Right. With no tourists.

Doug McKnight00:39:27

Yes. 100.

Marvin Cash00:39:28

Yeah. It takes, I guess, what, until October for the people from California to go home?

Doug McKnight00:39:33

Yeah, I mean, they're kind of done. I mean, it kind of depends on what happens in October.You know, I, ideally, you know, a first week October, you know, 22 degrees and, you know, ice and maybe a little bit of snow and, you know, but hey, Howard, shakes out, you know, however the weather shakes out. Whenever snowbirds go home, it's, it's, it, it's gonna happen.

Marvin Cash00:39:59

It's just when. Yeah. We'll just hear you chuckling in your hot chocolate.

Doug McKnight00:40:05

Yes, sir.

Marvin Cash00:40:07

So if folks want to follow your adventures at the vice, on the water and in the field, where should they go?

Doug McKnight00:40:13

Probably my Instagram, you know, probably. Probably not a better spot than that, which is Doug underscore McKnight.

Marvin Cash00:40:23

Well, there you go. Easy enough. I'll drop it in the show notes. And Doug, I appreciate you taking some time out this evening to chat with me from an exotic location.

Doug McKnight00:40:31

Oh, dude. 100% great. Great stuff.

Marvin Cash00:40:34

Absolutely. Thanks so much. Take care.

Doug McKnight00:40:37

All right, See you.

Marvin Cash00:40:38

Well, folks, we hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Before we leave you, one more thing. If you listen to the podcast, you know about trout routes.If you fished Midwest lakes, you owe it to yourself to check out its sister app, Onx Fish. Midwest Onx Fish takes the guesswork out of finding new places to fish. Search and filter by species size and abundance.Plus, get local details and background info so you can show up with a plan A and as many backup plans as you want. Make the most of your time on the water. Head over to Onyxmaps.com today. And remember, links to all this episode's sponsors are in the show notes.Check them out. Fish hard, folks.