BONUS: From Core to Coating: The Art of Fly Line Engineering with Josh Jenkins

EPISODE SUMMARY

Guest: Josh Jenkins - R&D Manager at Scientific Anglers (Michigan)

In this episode: R&D Manager Josh Jenkins shares manufacturing insights and product development strategies for fly line design. Topics include specialty line market dynamics, computer-controlled manufacturing processes and collaboration with professional anglers.

Key fishing techniques covered: • Streamer fishing with sinking lines • European style nymphing • Strike indicator techniques • Muskie fishy with heavy sinking lines • Saltwater tarpon and permit fishing

Location focus: Idaho rivers (St. Joe River), Michigan manufacturing, Biscayne Bay saltwater fishing

Target species: Cutthroat trout, musky, tarpon, permit, striped bass, smallmouth bass

Equipment discussed: Scientific Anglers Sink 25, Musky Gen 2, Titan lines, Magnitude clear floating lines, various sinking densities, computer-controlled manufacturing equipment

Key questions answered: • How are fly lines manufactured from core to coating? • What makes specialty fly lines commercially viable? • How do manufacturers collaborate with pro staff for product development?

Best for: Intermediate to advanced anglers interested in fly line technology, product development and understanding gear optimization for specific fishing applications

Marvin Cash00:00:04

Hey, folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Butcher Shop where the Meat Meets the Water. On this episode, we're going to do something a little different.At some point during every butcher shop interview, we get around to talking about fly lines for streamer fishing. So for this episode, Josh Jenkins, the R and D manager at Scientific Anglers, joins us for a deep dive into fly line design and manufacturing.Even gives us the inside scoop on some new essay lines dropping soon.I think you're going to really enjoy this one, but before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items to make sure you don't miss a single episode of the Butcher Shop. Be sure to subscribe in the podcatcher of your choice.We're only distributing episodes on the Articulate Fly for a limited time, and if you like the podcast, please tell a friend and subscribe and leave us a rating review in the podcaster of your choice. It really helps us out. And finally, a shout out to our sponsor, Trout Routes.We all know streams are getting crowded, and chances are you're not the only one at your local access point. Get away from the crowds and busy gravel lots by using Trout Routes Pro.With over 350,000 access points mapped across 50,000 trout streams and much more, Trout Routes has all the data you need to help you find angling opportunities that others will overlook. Up your game and download the app today.Use code artfly20 artfly20 all one word for 20% off of your Trout Routes Pro membership at maps.troutroutes.com and a shout out to our friends at Schultz Outfitters.Schultz Outfitters is southern Michigan's premier flying tackle shop, and the guys at Schultz Outfitters are some of the fishiest dudes on the planet. Book a day on the water, swing by the shop or check out one of their many classes taught by some of the best anglers and tires in the game today.Check them out@schultzoutfitters.com or give them a shout at 734-544-1761. Now on to our interview. Well, Josh, welcome to the Butcher Shop.

Josh Jenkins00:02:00

Yeah, thank you for having me on.

Marvin Cash00:02:02

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to our conversation. And we have a tradition.This is probably more of an articulate fly tradition than a butcher shop tradition, but we always like to ask our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

Josh Jenkins00:02:13

Sir. Earliest fishing memory. Man, I it would.It would definitely be with my dad, and there he he grew up in sort of the very northern reaches of Idaho, and I grew up just south of that and there was a lake called MacArthur Lake that he fished a bunch as a kid.And I think that is probably my earliest memory sitting on a dock on MacArthur Lake, you know, catching 4 inch pan fish endlessly all day and just having the time of my life. I think that's probably the earliest I can actually remember.

Marvin Cash00:02:45

Yeah, that's super neat. And so when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing?

Josh Jenkins00:02:51

I can't remember exactly. I think it was around 10 or 11. My dad got me a clear water outfit from Orvis for Christmas and I remember I was so excited.I was enamored with watching him fly fish for the longest time.And prior to getting my own fly rod, he had my brother and I casting, you know, the, the quintessential adjust a bubble clear float on a spinning rod with a fly off of the end. But there was, there was never really the complete connection to fly fishing with that system.And so I remember opening that present on, on Christmas and just being so elated that I took it out into the snow and casted for a few hours I think, until I, I couldn't feel my hands. But yeah, it was around 10 or 11. Somewhere around there is super neat.

Marvin Cash00:03:32

And we were commiserating about travel schedules and I know you were at iCast, but I suspect you probably got some recent fishing adventures you could share with our listeners.

Josh Jenkins00:03:41

I do, yeah. I fished a bit after ICAST in Biscayne Bay.Mostly targeting permit, unfortunately did not hook any, but I saw a bunch of fish and it was really cool fishery. It was the first time I'd been down there.And then just prior to that I was back out in my hometown celebrating my dad's birthday and did a bit of fishing with my, my brother and my nephew and cousin.

Marvin Cash00:04:04

Very, very neat. What are, what's your favorite water in your home state?

Josh Jenkins00:04:09

Home state now or my original home state?

Marvin Cash00:04:11

Your original home state.

Josh Jenkins00:04:13

Original home state. That's a tough one. So I grew up in the Coeur d' Alene area and I would have to say probably the St. Joe River. It was about an hour south.It is about an hour south and it's pretty much all cutthroat trout. But that's kind of where I, where I cut my teeth and you know, learned most of the techniques that I started with down there.At least as far as dry fly fishing and streamer fishing and fishing goes very neat.

Marvin Cash00:04:40

And so, you know, how does a guy that grew up in Idaho with all this great trout fishing find his way to sa.

Josh Jenkins00:04:46

That's A great question. It wasn't necessarily an easy path. So I, my undergraduate degree is in mechanical engineering.And I went and got my undergraduate degree at the University of Idaho, which was just a little further south than where I grew up, actually fairly close to the St. Joe River. And I had a great opportunity in the course of going to school there to intern at a electronics company.I did two summers there and I, at the end of that, it was a great company. I loved everybody that I worked with, but my, my heart wasn't necessarily in it.And I came away at the last summer realizing that, you know, it's kind of now or never to try to make something happen if I want it to happen. And, and I chose to go back to school. I went to grad school in Pittsburgh, actually did a one year program there in product development.And about halfway through that program I started reaching out to companies to try to figure out something after graduation. And one of them happened to be Orvis. They had a position open for a real designer at the time.And I applied and they eventually lost funding for the position and didn't actually staff it, but I had made a connection there and I graduated. And I'm not proud, too proud to say it, but I'm not proud enough to not say it on a podcast.I moved back in with my folks for a few months and told myself I was going to give it a six months and was going to try really hard to find a job in a passion industry.And if after six months I didn't find anything, then I was going to kind of relent and figure out something else just to start getting money coming in and move out of my folks place.So I think it was maybe, it was probably pretty close to the end of six months, maybe month four or five, another position at Orvis came up and this one was for a fly tying material buyer. So the position was basically responsible for sourcing fly tying materials that Orvis sells.And reached out to my contact at Orvis, Sean Combs, and, and submitted my application and he called me and he was like, hey, to be honest, the post, the posting's still up. It wasn't really supposed to be.We, we already filled the position, but we, I don't know if you've seen it, we have an opening at our sister company, Scientific Anglers, that I think you'd be well qualified, qualified for and reached out to Scientific Anglers who at the time was being run by Jim LePage and interviewed there and got the job and the rest is history.

Marvin Cash00:07:10

Yeah, that's very cool. So Puffy hooked you up.

Josh Jenkins00:07:13

He did, yeah. Yeah. He's still a great friend. Actually. I was. He was. Who was. I was fishing with in Biscayne after I cast.

Marvin Cash00:07:20

Very cool. So, you know, for folks that don't know, you landed at Scientific Anglers and you're the R and D manager.And can you kind of give our listeners kind of a feel for kind of what that involves?

Josh Jenkins00:07:30

Yeah. So Essay is a real small company. In total, I think we have, we hover around 40 employees and a bulk majority of that is production.So all the file lines that we make under the SA brand and the ones that we private label are all produced in Michigan where our headquarters are. So I would say, you know, maybe 30 or high 20s out of that total 40 number is production.And then the sort of the quote unquote front front office is managers. So I'm the only engineer in the building. I get.Get my fingers into a lot of different things, but my main responsibility is developing new products, which of course mostly is fly lines. So working on fly line tapers and technology.And then I also get pretty heavily involved in the production equipment that we use to produce fly lines. Optimizing it, fixing it, changing processes to. To try to make better product or make product faster. But it's, it's pretty much those two zones.It's product development on one half and then, you know, involvement in designing or implementing new processes or improving equipment for manufacturing.

Marvin Cash00:08:38

Very cool. I imagine there's probably a quality control component in there too. Sampling and doing stuff like that.

Josh Jenkins00:08:43

There is, yeah. Thankfully we have. I have some help on the quality control side.So I'm not solely responsible for quality control, which is probably for the best to have at least two people checking in on the way out. But yeah, a little bit of quality control as well.

Marvin Cash00:08:58

Very neat. And so, you know, I know you guys are like super duper secretive about your manufacturing process. Yeah.Because I've like, you know, talked to like Brad or Joe and they're like, you can come to Michigan and visit, but you'll never see the production floor.

Josh Jenkins00:09:11

Yeah.

Marvin Cash00:09:13

But you know, for, for folks that, you know, have like no clue what it goes into making a fly line. Can you kind of give us, I don't know, I'd like better than a 30,000 foot view. Can you give us maybe the 10,000 foot view?

Josh Jenkins00:09:24

Sure. So every fly line that I'm aware of, made by us or otherwise, starts with a core. And the core is essentially the tensile member.Tensile member at the center of the fly line, that gives it strength. So the part of the line that you feel that you interact with is the coating, and it's not actually very strong on its own.So we have to run a core member up the center of the fly line to make sure it'll handle the pressure of whatever fish you're targeting. So you start with the core. It's level. There's no taper to the core. And we have a couple different varieties.There's a few different styles of braid we'll use occasionally monofilament as well, which is essentially just like tippet, just a little bit heavier. And we take that braid and we coat it with a primer. So the.The braid that we use is not inherently very sticky or it's hard to get things to stick to it. So. So in between the core and the coating, you have to put a tie layer or primer layer to get those two to stick together.And that's actually sort of one of the most critical aspects of making a durable fly line is making sure those two components stick together.So we take that core, coat it with a primer, we dry the primer, and then over top of the primed core, we apply the coating, which is the piece of the fly line that you see, and that is actually tapered. So we'll run it through a die. And in the die, we have control over various feeds.So we can feed in different colors or we can feed in different densities along the length of the line. And you basically apply that as a liquid. It goes through an oven, the plastic cures, and then it comes out the other end.And then it goes into post processing, which is where we'll add things like the printed ID on the front of the line, welded loops, and then it'll go into packaging, and eventually in the warehouse and out the door.

Marvin Cash00:11:14

Very, very neat. Yeah, that's. It's kind of amazing. And so do you. Are you able to actually extrude like. Like a long.Like a long length of core with multiple lines and they get cut? Or is it kind of one line at a time?

Josh Jenkins00:11:26

Yeah, no, it's basically end to end. I think our core spools are something like 5,000 meters in length, which I probably can't really do the math right now, but typically in a.In a run of fly lines, we'll run a minimum of a hundred and upwards of 500 in one run. So it's. They're. They're ran back to back, and then the machine will actually create what we call A machine bump in between them.So these lines are coming off the machine. There's a, another secondary operator there that's coiling them and checking them for defects.And they're running the whole line through their hands and they'll basically, you know, run 100 foot line through their hands and they're feeling for this bump in between lines. They'll hit the bump and that's their cue to know where to cut that line and then start the new one.

Marvin Cash00:12:10

Very, very neat. And do I remember correctly, I think scientific anglers were, you know, that's the company that brought PVC to fly lines, right?

Josh Jenkins00:12:19

I believe so. So the history is a little bit muddy. There may have been one company that beat us to actually PVC coding, applying a PVC coding to a fly line.But if that is true, I think that the other company that beat us was actually doing it in a little bit different. Any company does it now.So if the history of fly lines are most recently before plastic coating I guess was silk fly lines and they were braided and you'd have to treat them with muslin to, to keep them floating and you'd have to dry them so they didn't rot or whatever.And the way they, they built the taper into these silk fly lines is you have this braiding machine that has, let's call it, 16 different threads that you're braiding together.And if you want to taper it up or down, you either have to cut out those threads, so you go from 16 to you know, 1412 and you taper down or you start at 10 and then you add threads back in and you go back up. And so traditionally that was the way that these fly lines are made.And so my understanding is that there was a company that beat us to the punch of making PVC fly lines. But they were, they were tapering the core still. So they had a tapered core which was highly labor intensive.And then they would apply an even layer of PVC plastisol to the outside of that. What SA did was we came in and we said, hey look, the, the labor intensity of braiding and tapering a core is much too great.So instead we're going to build our fly lines on a level core and we're going to taper the plastic instead. And that allowed us to produce it in a much easier manner, much more consistent and way, way more efficient.

Marvin Cash00:13:57

Yeah, interesting.As you're explaining that, it makes me think about when I was a kid playing with those like play DOH machines with the Cranks on them, extruding like big play doh snakes. It sounds like that's kind of how the fly lines are made.

Josh Jenkins00:14:09

Very similar.

Marvin Cash00:14:10

Yeah.

Josh Jenkins00:14:10

Yep. Very similar.

Marvin Cash00:14:11

Yeah.And so, you know, it's, it's interesting, right, because I would say, I don't know what, maybe in the last eight to 10 years, to me there's been an absolute explosion in specialty fly lines. And I was kind of curious, you know, if you wanted to kind of share your views on kind of, you know, what's attributed to that growth.I mean, it seems like there is a fly line for every species and every possible use case almost at this point.

Josh Jenkins00:14:34

Sure, yeah. I mean, admittedly a little bit of is, is consumerism. Right. Like it's the more options you have in theory, the more fly lines you'll sell.And it's sort of a race to the bottom in that regard. Unfortunately, if you don't have all these options now, you're falling behind from your competition. So sort of a self fulfilling prophecy there.But I think in the truest form, the reason we have so many different lines now is because we have so many varied techniques in fly fishing. You know, if I think about fly fishing back in, I mean I, I wasn't around.But let's, let's say back in the, the 50s or 60s, you know, there wasn't many people targeting tarpon. There probably wasn't very many people targeting permit. You know, Euro European style nymphing didn't exist. No one was using strike indicators.There probably was hardly anybody targeting muskie on fly. Right. So we have so many more species that are now, I guess for lack of better term, more mainstream. That sort of necessitate specialized gear.And I think that's why you see the proliferation of lines and you know, rods and reels, basically any piece of equipment in fly fishing.

Marvin Cash00:15:39

Yeah, interesting. I mean, how much too do you think?I mean, I would imagine too, it seems to me that, you know, manufacturing has gotten to a place where it's easier to make more customizable stuff in much smaller batches than it was maybe 15 or 20 years ago.

Josh Jenkins00:15:54

That's very true. So when we first started building fly lines at sa, the way we tapered the fly line was actually determined by a cam.So we had a, like a metal disc that had the taper sort of etched into the outside of the metal disc and the die, how open the die would, or how far the die would open to make the taper. The line was determined by this disc and you had to have very tight tolerancing in the manufacturing for that disc.So anytime you wanted to come out with a new taper or sometimes even a new size, you had to go to a machine shop and have this disc manufactured. And you know, it doesn't seem like much money now, but back in the day it was pretty significant.And if you didn't get it right, you'd have to basically scrap it and start all over again. I can't remember when we implemented computer control, but I want to say it was probably in the 70s or 80s. And you're exactly right.Ever since we've had computer control, you know, now it's just a, basically an Excel spreadsheet and you type in your diameters and your segment lengths and you can make a new fly line in 10 minutes if you want to.

Marvin Cash00:16:59

Yeah, that's kind of cool. I mean, because, you know, obviously you get more and more specialized. The, the run sizes in some ways kind of get smaller and smaller.You know, what's kind of the minimum kind of, you know, let's just say pro forma market size, you need to have a viable fly line product.

Josh Jenkins00:17:14

Typically we like to sell at least 300 lines in a year for an application and that 300 lines can be divided over a few sizes. But if it gets much below 300 or 200 in a year, we start looking at it pretty heavily for drop.We do have what we'll call sort of loss leaders lines that we know aren't going to sell a lot of. They're not going to, we're not going to sell a ton of lines in a category. But we feel like to be competitive we need to maintain it.And thankfully we have enough other high volume products to offset those programs. But yeah, typically around 300 or 200 lines per year is sort of the minimum.

Marvin Cash00:17:50

Yeah, that's pretty amazing. I mean, that's really, I mean, gosh, that's not that many even for, you know, like, you know, pretty esoteric kind of predator species, right?

Josh Jenkins00:17:59

Yeah, Yep.

Marvin Cash00:18:00

Yeah. And so it's interesting too, right? I mean I, I've kind of know people that have advised you and helped you develop lines.But I was kind of curious, you know, you know, how does, how do you generally collaborate with your pro community to come up with a new line? You know, does the, does an angler like say, does Blaine come to you with a problem and say, hey, I need a line that works better for this?Or do you guys have kind of fishing solutions? Or do you kind of, you know, marry the tech and the engineering to help solve the fishing problem for the pro.

Josh Jenkins00:18:29

Yeah, I would say it depends on what we're developing.So if it's a taper or maybe, you know, a change in density or something like that, generally that will come from the field, which is also usually an ambassador or pro staffer. So we'll have a, you know, someone reach out that says, hey, I've got an application. It doesn't really seem like you have a line that fits the bill.Most often it's like, I'm using this line of yours. If we could tweak it to do this, that would be great. So most often taper, taper ideas come external from the company.Like they're not actually coming from my mind.I might, I may take what they're, they're trying to convey and interpret it and make a line out of it, but most of the ID ideation comes from people outside of sa.The technology that we put into the fly line is a little bit different, you know, which is things like trying to make a fly line slicker or make it last longer or float higher or sink faster, whatever, because that's overarching generally through entire product ranges.That's a little bit easier for us to see the clear benefit and be like, hey, you know, if we can make 90% of our fly lines slicker, we're going to do it. The nuance of tapers is, is generally enough that we, we wait for people to ask us for applications.Especially since to your point, where you have so many fly line options anyway, we're not just looking to invent things, to invent them. We want to, we want to see that there's an actual need before we bring it to the market.

Marvin Cash00:19:50

Interesting. And so, you know, just kind of curious on kind of the tech side. Like, let's just say with coatings, right?You know, how does that sort of bubble up on your radar? Is it a problem or are you at a, you know, a trade show and you're like, hey, here's a new product. We can kind of, let's see how it works.I mean, how does that tech kind of come into. Come into existence at sa?

Josh Jenkins00:20:12

Generally it's just through contacts in sort of the greater plastics industry. So I try to keep in touch with plastics news and, and I have a number of pretty good contacts and suppliers that we use now.And a lot of times it'll just be a supplier reaching out and saying, hey, you know, we have a, we have a new component, we have a new additive that we're launching.Would you like to evaluate it or, you know, just doing some pretty basic Google searching and trying to figure out if there's some new slickness, additive or some reinforcement for PVC that's come along in the past few years that I haven't heard about. We're, I would say that we. It's not really technology development's not really a scheduled thing.It's not like we're, you know, every three years, okay, we need new technology. It's more like just keeping your ear to the ground the entire time. And if something comes up that's worthwhile and beneficial, then we'll do it.And if not, then we just wait until something does come along.

Marvin Cash00:21:08

Yeah, it's kind of like fly tires, trolling hobby shops and craft stores, right?

Josh Jenkins00:21:13

Yeah. Yeah.

Marvin Cash00:21:14

And so, you know, it's an interesting thing too because I think there are all of these little details that go into your fly lines that I think, you know, the average consumer, you know, wouldn't appreciate.I mean, whether it's, you know, the stamping on the tips now, which I think is phenomenal, but also, you know, like having done these interviews for the butcher shop and talking to guys and they'll say, well, you know, we really like it because essay made the running line thicker so it doesn't tangle as much.And you know, I was kind of curious if you could kind of share some of those kind of under the hood line details that the average consumer wouldn't know about but would really appreciate.

Josh Jenkins00:21:47

Yeah, I mean that's, I don't know if there's a real good single overarching one. I mean, since we're on the butcher shop, I guess we, the, the running line diameter that you brought up is a pretty good example.So we have, we're now on our, we call it musky gen 2 series of sinking lines. And before the first gen of our branded muskie line, most guys were just fishing our sync 25 cold again.We made it up to I think at least a 500 at some point, but most recently a 450.And Muskie Gen1 came from enough muskie anglers reaching out and being like, hey, I think we need to tweak this thing a little bit and we can make it musky specific. There's enough fire behind muskie fishing now that I think a branded line would work well. And so we made that line and it didn't do very well.To be honest, I don't think I included enough pro staffers in the design and development of that thing. And that's mostly on me. And so when we did Gen 2, I tried to include a lot more people. And one of the.The biggest pieces of feedback was the running line diameter. Most guys want a. You know, in my mind, on the original version, you want a smaller diameter running line so you could shoot a mile if you had to.But that was only thinking about half of the equation.And most serious musky anglers that I talked to wanted a thicker diameter running line because they wanted to be able to strip set with a lot of force. They were more concerned about once they fed a fish, getting it to hand than they were about delivering a fly an extra feet.And, you know, hindsight's 20 20, it makes total sense, but there's a lot of little nuanced things like that where you change the. The running line diameter, you know, literally the.The thickness of a sheet of paper, and all of a sudden it performs a lot better for your average muskie guy than it did before.

Marvin Cash00:23:34

Yeah, I think one of the neat things, too.I'm not sure if it's that line or not, but I really like the way you guys color code the head and the running line so that when you're casting, you have that visual cue that you've got the head out of the rod tip and it's time to, like, you know, deliver the fly.

Josh Jenkins00:23:48

Yep. Yeah, that's a big one. That was another pretty big piece of feedback from Blaine specifically was Muskie Gen 1.The color of the running line was similar enough to the head that it was hard to see that transition, especially in low light. Blaine wanted, I believe, a bright orange running line. And we have.We still have some anglers in the market that are very cautious to fish an orange line, I'll say, because they believe it scares fish. So we tried to find a kind of a happy medium and just get as much contrast in there as we possibly could without going bright orange.

Marvin Cash00:24:20

Yeah, very neat. It's kind of a pastel kind of, you know, orange, yellow color. Yeah, it's kind of cool. Yeah.And so it's kind of interesting because, you know, if I go back in kind of my time time machine, it's kind of funny. Right.I've interviewed Russ Madden and, you know, we're talking about a time kind of in the early 2000s where, you know, literally there were almost no sinking lines. Right. And people were making their own.And kind of one of the things that's kind of happened is, you know, when you had fewer line, it means you have to do different things from a Technique and a fly design perspective to fish the fly.

Josh Jenkins00:24:51

Creative.

Marvin Cash00:24:52

Yeah, you have to get creative.And so, but the flip side of that is, you know, now you guys are solving a lot of these presentation and delivery issues, and it's changed, you know, the way people can fish and also their fly designs. Right. So, like, Russ talks about, you know, being fishing lighter circus peanuts. So it's kind of curious, you know, if you kind of have a.A viewpoint on kind of the changes you've seen in fly design and kind of fishing techniques, because people have been able to get much more specialized delivery tools.

Josh Jenkins00:25:19

Sir. Yeah, I mean, I think the most obvious one is just if you're talking about streamer fishing specifically is the size of flies.I mean, Russ will say a small peanut, but even a small peanut, by comparison to a, you know, normal streamer decades ago, is still pretty large. So that's. That's probably the. The largest technique.But even with, you know, the advent of swim flies and things like that, supplies that are neutrally buoyant that you want to hover. I think that's been kind of an interesting one for me. We're coming out with a new density in our sync25 this year. So sync25 has been around forever.It used to be called the Streamer Express, and we rebranded it actually before I started at sa, but it's been here ever since I've been around. And Russ has been a pretty big advocate of adding a slower syncing density to that range. So we're adding a sync 3, the original one.The current one is a sync 5, I think sync 5 or sync 6.And his whole point was, you know, I just want to be able to fish different sections of the water column, but still have the same delivery as the Sync25. And so I made him a couple samples, and he absolutely loved it and crushed it with it for a couple seasons, I think at least a season and a half.And, you know, it's just what I described. We had an idea come from a pro staffer external to the company, because Russ's fishing streamers way more than I ever will in my life.And I trust his opinion. And, you know, now we have another good addition to our streamer line.

Marvin Cash00:26:43

Very, very cool. And we talked a little bit about the fly line arms race, and I guess we'll maybe segue to the. To the rod arms race.And, you know, there's a similar impact on basically, you know, the impact of the lines on rod design and casting skills. You know, what are your thoughts there?

Josh Jenkins00:27:00

You know, I, I think we have a ton of good rod options now, and I think if you looked at rods, you know, maybe 20 compared to now, it's actually hard to find a bad rod. I would say, you know, rod technology's come so far.I think as a, as a line manufacturer, the one thing that kind of scares me is the, I don't really know how to say it correctly, but the one thing that scares me is the proliferation of overweighted lines sort of as a compensation for fast action rods, for lack of better term. So there's, you know, it's, and it, it has a potential to sort of spiral out of control.You know, if a, if a rod manufacturer makes a fast action rod and your average consumer can't cast it. So SA makes a half heavy line and then the rod manufacturer on the next cycle uses a half heavy line to develop their new fast action rod.You can see how this thing can sort of snowball and get out of control. So I, I would say, you know, it's, it's, it's, it lingers in the back of my mind.I'm not super worried about it, but if I could change anything about the rod arms race, it would be trying to get back to, you know, an after standard line when they're, I would try to get the rod designers to use more after standard lines and consider the average caster's ability when they are designing rods just so this doesn't have a propensity to, you know, get out of control.

Marvin Cash00:28:24

Yeah.It's interesting too, because I mean, I've learned a lot about kind of fast action rod preferences by starting, you know, working on the butcher shop.And it's interesting how, you know, the streamer guys, as a general rule, want a really fast rod with a really stiff tip because they want to be able to manage, you know, the action that they put into the flies. Right.But to your point, you know, if you back out and say you take like, like a Mac Brown, who's a more traditional, you know, trout angler and caster, he likes a medium fast rod and so he's, you know, always extolling the virtues of the old school double taper, Right?

Josh Jenkins00:28:59

Yep. And Mac is one of the better casters I know for sure. So I would trust his opinion on that.

Marvin Cash00:29:04

Yeah, So, I mean, it's kind of an interesting thing which kind of, you know, gets us to kind of, you know, I think to your point, like having people really kind of understanding what they're trying to accomplish with their cast and their rod and then matching the line to that. Right?

Josh Jenkins00:29:17

Yep.And I think one of the most confusing things for a beginning angler is not understanding that some lines are overweighted and they're overweighted for specific purposes. But they could also help you if you're, you know, you, you buy a high end rod, but you're maybe a novice caster. It's, it's hard to explain.As soon as you put a, an overweighted rig into someone's hand like that, it's, it's eye opening to see how much easier it can make it to cast.

Marvin Cash00:29:42

Yeah, it's interesting too.Like, I remember having this conversation with Brendan Roosch and he was talking about literally the difference between, because I know you guys make two times heavy lines and then I think your Infinity plus is one times heavy.And basically the difference between say taking, you know, a premium rod brand and there's like, let's just say the Pro stick and then there's the kind of, you know, general consumer stick and how literally just that difference between 2x and 1x is what you need to make those, those rods work the way they're supposed to.

Josh Jenkins00:30:11

Exactly. Yep, yep, that's exactly it. And we essay, we're trying to be more transparent about overweighting.We, we never really wanted to hide it from anyone, but up until maybe four years ago, you had to understand, you know, grain weights and you had to interpret the chart on the back of the fly line carton to, to really figure out what was going on.Now on the front of the carton on the catalog page for each taper, I think right below the, the name of the taper actually is it calls out exactly how overweighted it is.So if you go to a, you know, a Titan, which is our, our two size heavy line, if you picked up a fly line card and right below the title, it's going to say two sizes heavy. If you pull up the catalog page, it'll say two sizes heavy.So we' make it as easy for consumers as possible to interpret what the line is intended to do.

Marvin Cash00:30:59

Yeah, I think the evolution in the website in the last few years with all that information and coatings and warm and cold and all that stuff is fantastically helpful.

Josh Jenkins00:31:07

Yeah, hopefully.

Marvin Cash00:31:08

Well, let's, that's the goal. I'm sure people at ICAST had opinions for you, but.

Josh Jenkins00:31:13

Yep, yep.

Marvin Cash00:31:14

But you know, just to help people understand, you know, how long does it generally take to bring a new line to market? From the time let's say Russ reaches out and Says, hey, I like a line that fixes this problem to it showing up on a, on a peg in a fly shop.

Josh Jenkins00:31:28

Again, it's going to depend on what you're developing. So tapers are pretty easy. You know, the material package. If I'm developing a taper, generally the material package isn't changing at all.And so it's like, you know, like the line I built for Russ.I made him a sample and I think he fished it for six months and then we made the decision to add it because we're not really testing things like longevity or slickness or flotation because those are already built into the material package. And it's the same as basically any other line in the same family that we already have. So tapers are usually pretty easy.And I would say if we have someone come to us with an idea for a taper, we can generally nail it within, you know, two iterations at most.Sometimes it takes three or four, but on average, I would say at most two and two iterations on a taper, you know, maybe takes something like six months.Technology and if we, you know, make significant changes to the, the coating or the core or some other component of the plastic itself, generally we like to give it that some, a good, good amount of time, you know, two seasons or more.Just because we sort of hang our hat on durability and performance and we don't want to throw anything out into the market that we don't have 100 confidence in that could affect performance beyond just how it delivers a fly like a taper does.

Marvin Cash00:32:46

Got it. So that would be typical, say if, like your new kind of clear tip saltwater lines that came out, that was probably a multi year project.

Josh Jenkins00:32:53

Yep, yep. Precisely.

Marvin Cash00:32:54

Got it.And so, you know, just to kind of walk through the process, you want to pick, I don't know, I think I have a pretty good feel for, you know, kind of how you did Russ's newest lines. But maybe take with the. Would the Muskie 2 be a good example of kind of a broader, longer development cycle for a line to use?

Josh Jenkins00:33:11

Yeah, that's true. And that one was a little bit broader because there was some differing SKUs within that program as well.So the sync25 sync3 that Russ worked on, you know, the taper was the same as the sync 25. It was really just about getting the density dialed in for what he was looking for. So that was pretty straightforward.The musky Gen 2, the standard setup, the smaller sizes essentially was also pretty straightforward because most guys just wanted a Brighter or a more contrast between the head and the running line. And they wanted a beefier running line and shorten the head up a little bit. So that's, that's easy.The most complex part of that one was actually the custom cut, which we do. It's a 800 grain version of it.And we've done custom tips in the past, but the double handed muskie community, we wanted to sort of dip our toe into it, but we were afraid there wasn't enough volume to sell, you know, two or 300 lines in a year like we discussed. So we sat back and we're like, well, what if we made the biggest muskie line these guys are asking for?And then just assigned the taper such that the angler could cut it back if they wanted to trim it to, you know, a 750, a 700, a 650, whatever.And that actually took a bit of time to get the taper to work correctly because as you can imagine, you're, you're cutting it back, you're cutting into the taper a bit. And not only are you affecting the weight, but you're affecting the casting performance of it.So that, that portion of that line, because of the complexity, definitely took longer than a standard taper development.

Marvin Cash00:34:41

Interesting. So how many years did it take you to kind of go from soup to nuts on the Gen 2 Muskie?

Josh Jenkins00:34:46

I would say that was probably, that was probably about a year. I don't think it was over a year, but that one was pretty run.And gun the taper development on that, like, you know, I'd make a sample, I'd send it out, get feedback, and I'd make another sample maybe within two or three weeks.So because we, we had open machine time and I had time and it was easy to run, the development time took less just because of the, the iterations of samples were so close together.

Marvin Cash00:35:13

Gotcha. And so, you know, I'm gonna see if I can get you to divulge some secrets before I let you go tonight.

Josh Jenkins00:35:18

No worries.

Marvin Cash00:35:19

I don't want you to get in trouble, but if you have any new products or technologies that you're working on that you could share with our listeners, I'd really appreciate it.

Josh Jenkins00:35:26

Yeah, so we've got some striper lines coming out for this year. Those. That's probably the biggest series. It builds off of the triple density Titan in the sinker.And then we've got an intermediate with a warm water coating which will probably be popular for smallmouth bass anglers. It's an awesome. You know, low water sort of changer line.And the fact that it has a warm water coating means it holds up really well if it's, you know, 80 degrees plus. And there's also a floater in that series. That's probably the, the biggest new launch we have.If you step back a little bit further, we added clear floating versions of Magnitude, which is our clear floating family designed specifically for trout fishing, but that launched earlier in the year a bit. So, yeah, those are, those are kind of the, the two, the two big programs for us.

Marvin Cash00:36:17

Yeah, I saw the drone videos of the, of the trout. Of the trout lines.

Josh Jenkins00:36:21

Yeah, yeah. Yep.

Marvin Cash00:36:23

Good stuff. And so anything else you want to share with our listeners before I let you go tonight, Josh?

Josh Jenkins00:36:29

No, I think the only thing I generally sign off with is, you know, fly lines can be a very confusing subject and I always like to give kudos to our customer service team.I don't think people realize that no matter how confusing these things are, if you ever have a question, you can call us or email us and generally we'll get back to you in the same day. There's, there's no benefit to us to having consumers purchase the wrong line.And so we're very motivated to try to get you into the right line to make sure you have the best experience you possibly can on the water. If you go to Scientific Anglers website, there's a contact page on there.It'll give you the number you can call if you prefer that, or the customer support email if you prefer email. But that is the best resource you can possibly have.You know, like you said, we have an infinite, almost infinite number of fly line options and it's really hard to wade through. And if you do it on your own, there's a potential you could end up with the wrong product and have a bad experience because of it.So I always suggest if you're even on the fence about something, reach out to our customer support line. They love talking to people and they love solving problems.

Marvin Cash00:37:36

Yeah.I would also say too, you know, not, not encouraging people to wait by any stretch of the imagination, but, you know, during show season, you guys are at all the major fly fishing shows and it's a great time to literally go put, you know, one meet the people behind the lines, but also to put your hands on them as well.

Josh Jenkins00:37:51

Right? Yeah. Most of the consumer shows will have what we call our by or BYOR kit, which is bring your own rod.We have I think three or four real cases with every single taper we offer in at least one, sometimes two sizes. So if you come to a consumer show, you can either bring your own rod or go to a rod vendor that's also at the show. Grab one off.And if you want to try a specific taper, generally we can set you up with a reel. You can go cast it that day.

Marvin Cash00:38:17

Yeah, that's pretty awesome. And so if folks want to follow all things scientific anglers or your adventures on the water, where should they go?

Josh Jenkins00:38:25

Keep in touch with our Instagram page, Facebook, scientific anglers on both. That's a great way to keep in touch. I think we're probably more active on Instagram than anything. I have an Instagram, but I'm not all that active.So I don't know if I would suggest people go follow my page, but if you can find me, feel free. I post about once every three years.

Marvin Cash00:38:43

Oh, well, there you go. Good for you. I'm proud of you. Well, Josh, I really appreciate you taking some time out of your evening to talk to me tonight.

Josh Jenkins00:38:54

Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. It was great.

Marvin Cash00:38:56

It's been great. Take care.

Josh Jenkins00:38:57

You too.

Marvin Cash00:38:58

Well, folks, we hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Before we leave you, one more thing. If you listen to the podcast, you know about trout routes.If you fish Midwest lakes, you owe it to yourself to check out its sister app, OnXFish Midwest. OnXFish takes the guesswork out of finding new places to fish. Search and filter lakes by species size and abundance.Plus get local details and background info so you can show up with a plan A and as many backup plans as you want. Make the most of your time on the water. Head over to Onyxmaps.com today. And remember, links to all this episode's sponsors are in the show notes.Check them out. Fish hard folks.