BONUS: Mastering the Beast: A Deep Dive into Bob Popovics' Legendary Fly with Captain Ben Whalley

EPISODE SUMMARY

Guest: Captain Ben Whalley - Guide/Protégé of Bob Popovics (Maine/New Hampshire)

In this episode: Captain Ben Whalley shares Bob Popovics' Beast Fleye legacy and advanced tying techniques for saltwater stripers. Topics include hollow fleye evolution, bucktail selection secrets, sparse tying methods and fishery customization strategies.

Key fishing techniques covered: • Hollow fleye tying with reverse bucktail techniques • Extended body construction on mono • Bulkhead method for profile and water displacement • Sparse tying for castability and movement • Bucktail pressure manipulation for fish profiles

Location focus: Maine and New Hampshire coast, rivers and rocky ledges, Island Beach State Park (New Jersey)

Target species: Striped bass, occasional mentions of musky applications

Equipment discussed: 10-weight rods, fast sink lines, bucktail selection criteria, Chocklett shanks, mono extensions, Scientific Anglers Sonar Striper I/5/7 striper line

Key questions answered: • How did the Beast Fleye get its name and evolve from hollow fleyes? • What bucktail qualities work best for large profiled flies? • How sparse should you tie Beast fleyes for optimal castability? • How do you customize Beast fleyes for different fisheries and water conditions?

Best for: Intermediate to advanced anglers interested in saltwater fly tying, Bob Popovics techniques, striper fishing strategies

Marvin Cash00:00:04

Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Butcher Shop where the Meat Meets the Water. On this episode, I'm joined by Captain Ben Wally for a deep dive into Bob Popovic's Beast Fly.We discuss the history of the fly, its versatility in fresh and salt water, as well as how to tie it and fish it.I think you're really going to enjoy this one, but before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items to make sure you don't miss a single episode of the Butcher Shop. Be sure to subscribe in the podcatcher of your choice.We're only distributing episodes on the Articulate Fly for a limited time, and if you like the podcast, please tell a friend and subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out. And finally, a shout out to our sponsor, Trout Routes.We all know streams are getting crowded, and chances are you're not the only one at your local access point. Get away from the crowds and busy gravel lots by using Trout Routes Pro.With over 350,000 access points mapped across 50,000 trout streams and much more, trout Routes has all the data you need to help you find angling opportunities that others will overlook. Up your game and download the app today.Use code artfly20 artfly20 all one word for 20% off of your Trout Routes Pro membership at Maps and a shout out to our friends at Schultz Outfitters.Schultz Outfitters is Southern Michigan's premier flying tackle shop, and the guys at Schultz Outfitters are some of the fishiest dudes on the planet. Book a day on the water, swing by the shop or check out one of their many classes taught by some of the best anglers and tires in the game today.Check them out@schultzoutfitters.com or give them a shout at 734-544-1761. Now on to our interview.

Marvin Cash00:01:49

Well, Ben, welcome to the Butcher Shop.

Ben Whalley00:01:52

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Marvin Cash00:01:54

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to our conversation tonight. And folks, like we do on the series, we always pick a fly and we're going to talk about the beast.But before we get to that, you know, we were talking before we started recording, but you know, we've had kind of a funky weather spring.

Marvin Cash00:02:07

How's your striper season going?

Ben Whalley00:02:09

The season's off to a good start now.We've been about a week, week and a half behind schedule with a nor' easter hitting us out of the gate as fish were arriving, so pretty much New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, Everybody's pretty much a week behind schedule, but there's, there's lots of fish on the flats. Today was another awesome day. Great viz, some nice bass to the boat. So no complaints with days like today.

Marvin Cash00:02:43

Very, very neat. Yeah, you were up early. I think you texted me at 5:15 this morning.

Ben Whalley00:02:47

Yeah, I get up at 3:15 every day.

Marvin Cash00:02:51

Oh, wow.

Ben Whalley00:02:53

Yeah, the grind. Love it. Yeah.

Marvin Cash00:02:57

So, you know, you are one of the keepers of the flame of Bob Popovic's flies and all of his tying methods. And I was really curious before we start talking about the beast fly, you.

Marvin Cash00:03:06

Know, how did you meet Bob?

Ben Whalley00:03:09

So it's funny, I, I met him later in his life and it was kind of happenstance, you know, being up in Maine.I'm not like down the road from him or really in the scene, I guess, and I purposely kind of stayed on the outskirts because I tie, I've tied for since I was little, but I tie for myself and tie to, to do my own thing and, you know, figure my own fishing out.But back in 2019, I think winter of 2019, someone I was chatting with on Instagram, Ian Devlin, was up for the holidays and asked if he could swing by my house and hang out. So my wife was a little doubtful of that decision, but I obliged and we hung out, tied some flies.And I didn't realize, but when he left, he ended up going down and, and sharing with Bob one of the flies I had given. Given him. And it was the next day I got a call from Bob pretty much out of the blue, and. And we kind of hit it off then.And then Covid hit and he, he had his restaurant in New Jersey. And every Monday, his night, his, his restaurant was closed, so I didn't realize the importance of it.But every, every Monday night at after dinner, we'd start texting or calling and he'd share, you know, articles and videos and just, you know, answering all my naive or, you know, and, and kind of educating me on the history of all this stuff, and it kind of grew from there.I'm, I'm very much one a type of person where I think history is very important to the sport and just in general and, you know, just being able to sit back and listen and learn from, from someone that's put so much effort and time and passion.And so we were very similar and, and hit it off and boy, super grateful I, I got the little bit of time to really get to know him and got to get down and tie in as tying room And a handful of times and, you know, just very generous and miss that guy big time.

Marvin Cash00:06:01

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so when you were sharing information, was it kind of, you know, kind of zooms and phone calls, or were you sending flies back and forth?I mean, you know, is it a little mix of old school and new school or kind of. How did you do that?

Ben Whalley00:06:12

Yeah, so definitely some flies back and forth. He sent me a couple beasts that I have mounted in my office now, and I'd send him some and then, you know, text messages.He was big on text messages, and he'd accidentally FaceTime me all the time while he's, like, driving to work and. And which he always got a kick out of because he. He thought he was, you know, putting me out or, you know, just a random butt dial.And I was like, you know, ecstatic to get to chat with him on his way to work. So. But. And then DVDs, like, he had burnt DVDs of, like, a ton of videos he did, so he sent those to me. And so kind of a blend of all of the above.You know, I think a lot of. A lot of the. The greats want to pass it on.You know, it's one of those things where you just have to be open and willing to listen, you know, and I try to. I try to embody that in all the classes I teach. And it's like, you know, giving.Giving your knowledge freely to people willing to listen isn't taking away from your greatness, you know, And I think when you're young, you might think that, but I think it's what makes them great wholeheartedly. Like, I think it's. It's that kind of selfless passing. Passing it on, carrying the torch. That is why our sport is so great, you know?

Marvin Cash00:07:51

Yeah, it's super neat. Like, you know, I. I didn't know Bob well, but I could watch him on social media and you would see him supporting all of these younger tires.

Ben Whalley00:07:59

Yep.

Marvin Cash00:08:00

Right. And, you know, I can't, you know. You know, I just always remember he would be like, hey, this looks great. Look at this fly by, this guy.Which I thought was super cool.

Ben Whalley00:08:09

Yep. Yeah, you. You know, I think there are very few people in our industry that have had the impact that he had, and more so.More so than like a pattern or even 50 patterns, you know, however many. He came out with the.The revolutionary idea, and Blaine's another one, in my opinion, kind of charting that path, too, is like, coming out with these platforms. You know, he. He's like, sure. Here are the patterns. This is how you can tie them. But. But this is like, take it and do with what? Do with it.You know, whatever you want in your fishery. You know, this is. These aren't, like, hard, fast rules. Take it, build upon it, and keep pushing the envelope.And, you know, I think that's neat because it's easy to kind of get caught in that. Like, that's not tied how the originator tied it, you know, and it's like his intent was for his fishery.And he kind of got to the point, I remember him telling me where all of the baits in his. His fishery that he wanted to mimic, he had come up with patterns. So at that point, he's like, I'm.I'm satisfied with the imitations for those given situations.

Marvin Cash00:09:35

Right.

Ben Whalley00:09:36

Which was kind of when he switched more towards helping others, I think, because he was satisfied kind of with. With his quest to dial in his fishery, you know, Very, very neat.

Marvin Cash00:09:50

Do you know where the name for the beast fly came from?

Ben Whalley00:09:54

I do, yeah. So the first, like, beast fly, Bob.Bob had been out with his buddy Lance in Barnegat Bay, and there is a bunch of horse mackerel or a horse bunker, sorry, horse bunker, like monster ones that. And he was throwing, like, an extended body hollow fly. So, like, the tail was tied on a piece of mono extension to get the length, and they couldn't.They didn't connect with any fish. But, like, the biggest pattern he had just was so tiny in comparison.And there's a lot more to, like, the hollow fly and kind of how that came to be that we can discuss. But the. As far as the name goes. So he.He ended up going home and like, figured out this extended body in the hollow and literally made this fly that was 14 inches by 6 inches by 2 1/2 inches, right? Absolute tank.

Marvin Cash00:11:03

Right.

Ben Whalley00:11:03

Dense head, sparser tail. And he went out, I think, on Island Beach State park with Johnny King.And Johnny King coined it the beast because it was a beast in size and a beast to cast. And it stuck. Johnny still has that. That fly.

Marvin Cash00:11:25

Very, very neat.And so, you know, my understanding is really that, you know, evolution from the hollow fly to the beast fly was really Bob trying to solve the problem of having a large fly that you could cast on a fly ride.

Marvin Cash00:11:37

Right.

Ben Whalley00:11:39

So the hollow fly, interestingly enough, you know, he wasn't ever intended for size is like length. He was trying to come up with a method because he was. He was really curious.I think, like, it initially kicked off when he was In Mexico and saw a guy throwing a jig with where the. The synthetic fibers were tied forward. And as he ripped two hand ripped this thing back, you know, it wasn't a fly rod, but it pulsed, right.And it got his brain thinking, like, maybe if I can tie fibers in reverse and manipulate it, I can get height to like imitate peanut bunker. You know, the first ones he tied were probably five inches, I think four or five inches.And it was all about controlling that height of it to get that broader profile by adjusting the amount of pressure you put on the fibers, right. And it. So he did that. That was the kind of the revolutionary hollow fly. And then it progressed. You know, I think that's the cool thing.If you look back at all of his. The career, it's like one piece, a building block, you know, each. Each fly kind of built upon the other.

Marvin Cash00:13:09

Right.

Ben Whalley00:13:09

The beast fly is composed of that extended body that he started playing with, like tying on mono extension back in the 70s that he then put aside and played with the. Came up with the hollow technique later on, and then the bulkhead technique.And the beast fly is a composition of the bulkhead, the hollow fly body, and. And the extended tail off the back right on the mono extension. So they're all kind of like pieces that he. He figured out for different purposes.And then when he saw the need kind of the. The opening in his, like the need for a big profiled fly, he put them together, you know, and gave it a go.And the first one that was coined the Beast, you know, was very successful in that he got the taper, he got the size, like the silhouette. But he just wasn't satisfied at all with the castability of it. You know, it was so heavily.It was literally like an entire bucktail on a hook, you know, so that's where like the iterative. So then he started playing around with, you know, densities and kind of dialing that in. Right.And depending on your fishery, like, that's where you can kind of get into diet, you know, suiting it for your own needs. You know, muskie guys, the whole beast fly kind of platform, hollow or reverse tide platform is used a lot in big muskie flies.

Marvin Cash00:15:02

Right.

Ben Whalley00:15:02

But they're. They're probably five times heavier dress than anything on the saltwater side we use.

Marvin Cash00:15:11

Right.

Ben Whalley00:15:12

Because the gear's different and the require like muskie trigger differently and are feeding on different prey. So figuring that out, you know, is time on the water.

Marvin Cash00:15:25

Yeah, super interesting. So, you know, obviously, you know, it sounds like he kind of had these almost like parts, right?And he figured out a new way to put them together to solve a problem. But you know, were there tires that he was interacting with or watching that had an impact on the design of the beast?

Ben Whalley00:15:42

You know, I think so. He had for years the Tuesday night tying sessions at his house. I think a lot of inspiration came from those sessions.You know, it's like that one on one, you know, he, he had this big round table in his tying room that would get packed with people and you know, different tires every night. I think just that close quarters, sharing of information that eventually got too big and moved out of his house.But I think all of that like, you know, same thing with your fishing buddies when you're out and you're like trying to crack the code on what the fish are eating and you're, you're just kind of spitballing ideas back and forth. I think that is essentially what drove him. There weren't really a ton of people.Like Lefty had his buck, his deceiver, and then Bob came up with, and Lefty named the bucktail deceiver. But there really was, I mean he was a pioneer as far as like a lot of these methods and, and, and patterns at the time.You know, from the, the weird kind of methods that he would use from his silicones using, you know, GE silicone from the store. You know, he was ostracized for a year for kind of breaking the fly fishing mold. You know, the, the pretentious kind of this is how we do it.And, and, but he did it because he wanted to figure it out for himself. Like that was the end goal. It wasn't to claim he, he came up with a pattern that was better than everyone else.It was, he wanted to figure it out for his fishery, right. And, and people saw, saw the efficacy of them right in action and they eventually caught on.But the beast, fly in particular, like in his book Fly Design, it was a total afterthought. The night before it went to publishing. They decided to take the photos in the hotel room. But Bob's like, no one's going to want to do this.It's too laborsome. And now look at how big, how popular and, and how effective they are. You know, it's kind of boomed though.But for years he's like, no one's going to want to do this. I'm not going to put it in the book. And I'm glad they did because it, it's, it's a great pattern.It's a niche Pattern, you know, it's not like you're just blind casting it everywhere, but in certain situations, it's a must, you know?

Marvin Cash00:18:41

Yeah.

Marvin Cash00:18:42

Very, very neat. And so, you know, tell me a little bit about the bite triggers in the beast.

Ben Whalley00:18:47

So I think the. It's kind of the completeness of the pattern in how. How it's tied, right. Using bucktail. Bucktail is such a. There's really no substitute for it.Not to say that you can't use synthetics. I think synthetics, especially for the beast, can be used to extend length in the rear.You know, like, I think Bob used like, big fly fiber for a while. Like, if you. If you can't find long bucktail, you can integrate synthetics into it. But the triggers, you know, the beauty of it is how it breathes.So when tied sparsely enough and create like this seamless taper of the different platforms one over the next, when you strip it or by itself, just in current, it pulsates, right? Because you get that head that's denser, causing that hydraulic effect and creating every one of the tips rearward to move, and it just comes alive.Like, it looks like. Like I'll go down to the river and swim, just, you know, dangle it in the current. And I've had so many fish come up to look at it.I even got a couple on film a couple years ago. It. But it just comes alive.And, you know, I think there's some part of it where, you know, it puts off a signature similar to certain baits, you know, just the pulsating of it. But you can also. So you don't need to do a lot, and you can let it hover. Like, my fishery is a little unique over.Say you're fishing like a bunker school, which we have appeared to.But like the herring runs, I'm fishing super fast flowing rivers with boulders and rocky ledges, and you're throwing fast sink lines and you're trying to get it down. So really you just want it to hover in that sweet zone to get ambushed.

Marvin Cash00:21:09

Right.

Ben Whalley00:21:11

So whereas other instances, you want to rip it through, you know, it kind of depends on the behavior of the fish or. And your given situation.But getting it down to where the fish are tends to be a big one, you know, so as far as triggers, I would say, like, the completeness of it, as far as just how it comes alive. And you have that profile from underneath, which I think was the key Bob was thinking of when you had.When you're trying to imitate these big, you know, Shad bunker herring, where the fish are looking from below and, you know, trying to ambush them. You get that perfect silhouette.

Marvin Cash00:22:00

Right.

Ben Whalley00:22:02

There are things I do I like.There are things you can do to your tying where you can create it, make it move more erratic, you know, but it, by and large, it's more just a fly that comes alive when you move it rather than, than more like a jerk changer, let's say, right, that you're feeding on that erratic action of it to trigger, if that makes sense.

Marvin Cash00:22:37

Yeah, absolutely does. And so can you maybe walk us through kind of a. I don't know, a prototypical beast maybe from the back to the front.And you know, one of the interesting things I think, you know, since you got to spend time with Bob would be to hear materials or techniques or things that he changed that just didn't really kind of make the final cut.

Ben Whalley00:22:57

Yeah. So I mean the, towards the he, his older years, he, he tying on mono is, you know, when he started out, he was tying with two vices, right.He'd have 80 pound mono strung between two vices. And you'd have to flip the spool or the bobbin over this, right. Imagine how long that would take.And so it got to the point where you're holding that mono in hand and you're spinning the bobbin around, which is how I tie most of mine. And it's much quicker. And you know, I think certain materials, it's.You kind of have to trial and error whether you're mixing synthetics or just, you know, depending on naturals even.But having, having real feathers, for instance, if, if they're too limp, you know, it almost lays down over the bucktail and crushes like the profile. I think the big one for him was just going sparser and sparser and letting that bucktail breathe.So backing off and trusting the process, even though it looks kind of crazy at the vise, but you know, keeping those fibers wide so when you strip kind of collapses down on itself and will breathe a little more. And when you go to cast it, you know, sheds that water quickly and, and is more aerodynamic because you're using such little material.But essentially you're tying bucktail in stages on this mono, typically like half inches apart. So like the first tie in, you have a straight tie.So just like facing rearward, you can add hackles, you can add ostrich, you can like the, you can use all sorts of stuff. And then, then you switch to the reverse technique, right. And again, half, half inch kind of increments. As you move up. And the.The point there is you're grabbing the bucktail from the same spot on the tail. So just by moving up the mono and creating these stages, you're essentially creating that taper. So it's not like you. You have to, like.

Marvin Cash00:25:43

Really.

Ben Whalley00:25:43

He tried to make it foolproof and quick by being able to just move up. Granted, if you're mixing tones, like, you do have to pay attention to that a little more, but.But I would say, like, building that and as you move forward. So normally there's like seven. Seven or eight stages or reversed. So, like, seven reverse ties and one straight off the back.And then that piece of mono with the bucktail gets latched to the hook.

Marvin Cash00:26:18

Right.

Ben Whalley00:26:19

And then you build the head. So. And the head should typically be denser than the rear, and that's to really push water and make it kind of move on its own.I don't know if that answered your question.

Marvin Cash00:26:38

Yeah, it does.

Marvin Cash00:26:39

It's super helpful.

Marvin Cash00:26:40

And, I mean, we talked a little bit, too, about how you were getting profiled by the pressure.

Marvin Cash00:26:44

Right.

Marvin Cash00:26:45

When you're rapping, you want to talk a little bit about that, about how you're kind of, you know, getting it from not being squished down to being a lot bigger. So you get that side profile on the fly.

Ben Whalley00:26:53

Yeah. So there's. There's most of the baits up here. And I realize, you know, if you're not in.In the striper scene, you might not like if you have suckers, for instance.

Marvin Cash00:27:08

Right.

Ben Whalley00:27:08

They're more of a round bait versus bunker or herring. They're very profiled, so more, you know, broad instead of round. And so there's different techniques when you're tying the bucktail back.So part of it is kind of how you. You can pinch the fibers in hand as you're doing the last wraps that put pressure down on the fibers to the angle you want to create that.That profile. And so you can, you know, squeeze on the sides as you do it, or squeeze, like, one.Your one finger on top, two on the side to get, like, more of a triangular head. And so that's. That's something to take into consideration the. The bucktail, too. I mean, and that's something. Before I.Even before I met Bob, you know, I was. I didn't have Bob's book, and I had a buddy up here who was really into tying hollow flies, so he taught me kind of the basics.And when I got started, everybody's like, length, length, length. You want, you know, the end all be all is the bucktail that's long. So I went on a tear trying to find long bucktails.And what I quickly realized is not all bucktails and not all long bucktails are created equal. You know, every. And it's part of what I love about them is how the. The texture and the characteristics of each tail really behave quite a.Just quite a bit differently when you tie flies with them. So I spent two years, like, tying with any bucktail I could get my hands on to learn which a lot of them are a pain in the butt.

Marvin Cash00:29:07

Right.

Ben Whalley00:29:09

Just because they flare or they're. But each one kind of serves its own purpose.So I tell students when I'm teaching it, like, the easiest ones to manipulate when you're learning are like the soft kind of wavy, fine fibers. But for hollow flies or big pro, big profiled flies, they're not gonna really hold that. That profile because they're soft.

Marvin Cash00:29:38

Right.

Ben Whalley00:29:38

So finding and learning, just a lot of that comes through trial and error.

Marvin Cash00:29:45

Right.

Ben Whalley00:29:45

And even on the tail itself, like, the base flares more versus as you move up the tail, but no learning, learning where to pull from on it and what type of tail to run. You know, that. That's just.And I think some people get frustrated because it is complicated because there's so many variations in bucktail to do this synthetic is much easier because you buy a package and it's the same as the previous package.

Marvin Cash00:30:20

Right.

Ben Whalley00:30:21

But there's no synthetic that has a natural taper like bucktail. So.

Marvin Cash00:30:29

Yeah.

Ben Whalley00:30:30

Neat.

Marvin Cash00:30:30

And so, you know, to help people.And I know it's, you know, you know, when you say sparse, it's always interesting to me because when you see the side profile of these beasts, they almost look like a kid drew a Christmas tree.

Marvin Cash00:30:39

Right.

Marvin Cash00:30:40

They're very skeletal.

Ben Whalley00:30:41

Yep.

Marvin Cash00:30:42

But, you know, to help people and however you want to kind of help them with proportions. Like, you know, some people like talking about pencils, Some people hate talking about pencils.But can you kind of give some tips as you kind of move from back to front to kind of help people, you know, get the amount of material correct?

Ben Whalley00:30:59

Yeah, I don't like pencils. They're too thick. I end up. I like matchsticks because I'm a pyro. Just kidding. But, yeah. So, you know, it depends on what bait you're trying to mimic.My big thing that I've gone back to repeatedly is functionality.

Marvin Cash00:31:23

Right.

Ben Whalley00:31:23

You want it to. To. To imitate the bait, but you also want to be able to cast the thing.

Marvin Cash00:31:29

Right.

Ben Whalley00:31:30

If you can't cast it out. Whether you're trying to cover water around bait then, then it's not serving its purpose.

Marvin Cash00:31:41

Right.

Ben Whalley00:31:42

So making sure it's sparse enough that you can cast it without, you know, tearing a rotator cuff, I end up going pretty sparse. So like on the extension, you know, each one of the platforms that you're doing, I typically use like a matchstick worth like not much.

Marvin Cash00:32:09

Right.

Ben Whalley00:32:09

Because it's cumulative. So each one of those stages or, or reverse ties are going to lay over the previous.

Marvin Cash00:32:19

Right.

Ben Whalley00:32:20

And then once you get to the head of it, that's where I start doubling down and increasing that mass right where, where you want it to be. And, and the extension I'll pinch a lot of times like so that it's flat so profiled vertically so you get more height than width.And then the head, I don't pinch as much. Almost like the, the three finger pinch where you're going triangle.If you look at like bunker, they're very triangular head on but building that head to push water.And a lot of the fibers in the head section overlap the rear so it doesn't end up being as narrow as the, the tail section looked on its own because it fills in by with the head section.

Marvin Cash00:33:19

Got it. And you know, you talked about synthetics being helpful for length.Are there times when you like synthetics for like maybe getting a different water flow through and around the fly?

Ben Whalley00:33:31

Yeah. So I, I, in between collars, for instance, I'll use, you know, you can use different brushes as far as natural like fox or marabou to add a little.So it helps with the density but also it helps to push more water. So you can definitely do, you know, play around with adding different synthetics in there.What ends up happening and you need to be a little cognizant.That I've found happens to me is you know, you mix fibers in whether, even if it's flash, the, if you use like saltwater angel hair for instance, versus the natural angel hair, it's more durable. But the, the thickness of it is like two to three times the thickness of the bucktail and it ends up separating.

Marvin Cash00:34:36

Right.

Ben Whalley00:34:36

And the same is true with synthetics kind of trying to match the, the fibers density and coarseness as well as you, you're trying to build this 3D profiled fly and suddenly if you tie.

Marvin Cash00:34:53

In.

Ben Whalley00:34:55

Synthetic material that isn't hollow, that's laying on top of it, it, it's going to crush the work you just did previously.If so like similarly like the eyes if you want to add eyes, it never makes sense to me to like glue them on and squeeze the eyes on after creating like a round or broad head. So, like the tab eyes tend to be nice because they flex out. So you still get the best of both worlds in that instance.That whole eye thing is a whole nother story, but.

Marvin Cash00:35:34

Fair enough, you know, can you maybe share with folks?You know, obviously you're, you're matching the hatch in a different way, but do you have some, maybe some favorite kind of length kind of material and hook combinations you can share with folks for different forage species that might be helpful.

Ben Whalley00:35:52

Yeah, well, I mean, even, even same forage species, forage species, like depending on where you're fishing them.So, you know, Bob's, with Bob's hands and what he encouraged, like new tires to try tying the beast rather than on a mono extension to use like chocolate shanks. But they're, they're. So they're easier to tie, but they also do a great job at adding some weight to get the fly down.So if you're fishing fast current rips, you know, and herring are getting pushed out of the river, for instance, and you want to get down.Sure, you're throwing it on a fast sync line and a shorter leader, but the fly itself has, you know, neutrally buoyant, buoyant bucktail and stuff on it, which the line will pull down, but it oftentimes having the shanked version will get down quicker.

Marvin Cash00:37:01

Right.

Ben Whalley00:37:02

Which means you're in that strike zone longer a lot of times. So kind of weighing that option too, as you're depending where you're fishing, having a different tool in your toolbox.

Marvin Cash00:37:12

Right.

Ben Whalley00:37:16

So I keep that in mind. Is. And then, you know, sometimes, like, I had one really interesting learning experience when I was down on the Cape last month.I've never had issues of short strikes fishing for stripers with beast flies. I never, like, I've, I've never experienced that.But when I was down on the Cape, we had this incredible kind of pogie menhaden feed going on in super shallow water. Big stripers up to like 50 pounds were pushing the bait up on the beaches and rocks. They were killing themselves to not get eaten.

Marvin Cash00:37:59

Right.

Ben Whalley00:38:00

And I was throwing beast flies at them. And I, I think because they were in such shallow water, in such kind of high stake kind of situation, they kept t boning them.So I, I kept hooking these monster fish and they'd rip line, like 3 or 4ft of line out of my hand and then it come Unbuttoned. Because what they were doing was they were stunning the bait.

Marvin Cash00:38:32

Right.

Ben Whalley00:38:32

They weren't just inhaling them, which I've always experienced. Normally they come up and just inhale the fly, these big fish.

Marvin Cash00:38:39

Right.

Ben Whalley00:38:40

Whereas on, in this situation, they were literally just hitting em as hard as they could. Um, so the version that I've tied in the past where you have a shank or two in front and then a hook kind of off the rear, that would have fixed it.I did not have any on hand. So that's, that was a learning experience to throw one in the box next time.

Marvin Cash00:39:08

Yeah.

Marvin Cash00:39:08

Very, very neat. Are there any other, you know, the beast fly was around.It been around for a while like some of the other streamers we've talked about on the butcher shop. Are there other refinements that Bob made over his lifetime you want to share with folks?

Ben Whalley00:39:21

Well, I think, you know, that the progression, you know, the initial like bunker on mono attempt that he did back in the 70s, you know, then sat until I think the early 2000s or 20, somewhere around then when the beast kind of came to be. But he was developing extended body squid flies and extended body deceivers and you know, big hollow flies.And it kind of, it was that progression of putting all of these, these tools that he was learning about natural materials together to accomplish the goal.

Marvin Cash00:40:09

Right.

Ben Whalley00:40:10

That he was after. I think, I think there's still room to, to keep pushing this depending on your fishery.You know, that's, that's, that's one thing I love about like visiting different fisheries up and down the coast and just seeing, you know, whether you're fishing boulder fields or you're fishing rivers or you're fishing, you know, deep drop offs. Like you can adjust your pattern, you can adjust the, even the materials you're using to get, get it down quicker.You can add weight, you can, you can, you know, change it so that you can cast it further on a lighter rod. Like it's, it's all tweakable and it just requires time and testing and trying stuff out.

Marvin Cash00:41:06

Right.

Ben Whalley00:41:07

And you know, that I think all the foundational elements are Bob has shared gracefully with all of us in fly design, you know, and yeah, my ADD and lack of sleep kicked in, so I, I don't remember what you asked.

Marvin Cash00:41:26

So, no, it's all good.I think we kind of got it and you know, you know, yeah, it's all good and no, it's kind of funny, you know, for folks that have listened to some of the butcher shops, had a similar Thing with Tommy lynch. And I told him it was okay to. To repack a Zen and some more Copenhagen. So the. I think I even told him, he goes, I think. I can't.I think he maybe had a monster. Yeah, it was a monster. It wasn't Mountain Dew. But yeah, it's.

Ben Whalley00:41:52

It's.

Marvin Cash00:41:53

Dude, it's all good. And you know, I've been up early, but I haven't been up since three something this morning. So you're totally cool.You know, when you teach the pattern, you know, what are some common mistakes that you see tires make that you can kind of, you know, give them some advice and help them have a less frustrating time as they kind of learn to fly?

Ben Whalley00:42:11

Yeah, I think, I think choosing the right bucktail and then doing it, like, don't jump into tying a monster. Trying to tie a big monster beast, right. Break it down so that you're tying. Like learn to tie a hollow fly. Learn to tie a bulkhead fly.You know, learn. Learn to tie a 3D deceiver or a 3D bunker.Where all of the principles are that he kind of came up with were to build bulk and taper into these patterns. And it. By learning those skills, you can kind of pick and choose depending what you're trying to achieve as far as your profile.

Marvin Cash00:43:08

Right.

Ben Whalley00:43:08

So once you master the hollow technique.

Marvin Cash00:43:12

Right.

Ben Whalley00:43:13

Then maybe grab some shanks and try tying a beast on that first.

Marvin Cash00:43:20

Right.

Ben Whalley00:43:20

And when you think it's. You have sparse enough material to tie down half it, you know, and go super sparse. It's, it's. It adds up with the different steps, you know, but.But kind of those baby. Learn those foundation skills before trying to jump into it.I think that's where the frustration comes, is like trying to learn to tie on mono in hand. Yeah. It takes a ton of practice.

Marvin Cash00:43:55

Right.

Ben Whalley00:43:55

And it's frustrating if you've never tied. Done a hollow tie before.

Marvin Cash00:44:00

Right.

Ben Whalley00:44:01

But if you master those skills first, then it's like, okay, now I can add one more skill to it.

Marvin Cash00:44:09

Right.

Ben Whalley00:44:10

Make it a little more complex because it saves time that way.

Marvin Cash00:44:13

Right.

Ben Whalley00:44:14

But kind of be patient and, and put those reps in.

Marvin Cash00:44:21

Got it. And so, you know, obviously this. One of the secret sauces is the. Is the deer here. And yeah, you know, so, you know, don't burn your personal source.But are there places that people can go to where they're going to have a chance of, you know, because you can't always, you know, handle natural stuff before you buy it. Or some places you can suggest people go to buy bucktails to, you know, say, hey there. Go call and say, hey, I'm tying beast flies.And they're like, dude, we know exactly what you need or something close to what you need, and they send it to you.

Ben Whalley00:44:54

Yeah, I mean, I. There's no substitute for handling them and, and feeling them before buying them.So, you know, I, I check out all the local shops and even big box stores and, you know, every once in a while you find a golden one. But for those that don't have access to that, you know, there's a couple other sources on through social media that they.Their tires and kind of know what you're looking for. So Brad Buzzy is a great one. He's at all the fly fishing shows. Ellis Ward, he's. He's got, he ties a lot of fl.He's a talented tire and knows his stuff. So if you contact him, Midwest bucktails are another good one. But yeah, if you.I feel like in the Northeast we're using, well, I guess the Midwest with the whole muskie scene too. There's a lot of knowledgeable people. So check in with your local shop too. But yeah, it's, it's hard.I, I try not to buy blind unless, like, I know that the person that you're getting it from ties flies and kind of knows what you're going for.Because I've lost a lot of money where you're like being promised something nice and you get it and you're like, I could have gotten that for half the price down the road.

Marvin Cash00:46:28

So, yeah, we don't want to do that, do we?

Ben Whalley00:46:31

No. I mean, it's always a gamble.

Marvin Cash00:46:34

Right.

Ben Whalley00:46:34

Because it's natural material. But yeah, try to stick with people that, that actually tie. It's such a helpful because you're.If you're dealing with a tire and not just a processor, you're able to explain what your plan is for it and they can kind of educate and pick good ones for you.

Marvin Cash00:46:54

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we talked before we started recording. I think we may have even done this by text or email. You know, that kind of.Some of your contribution to the beast fly is that, you know, people don't understand how much you have to tweak it for what you're fishing for where you are.

Marvin Cash00:47:12

Right.

Marvin Cash00:47:13

And we've kind of talked about that kind of obliquely, kind of throughout the interview. But do you want to kind of sum that up for people and kind of give them a feel for what you're talking about?

Ben Whalley00:47:22

Yeah, I mean, I think it's just, it's. It kind of goes across the board as far as fly tying, right? It's.You can read a recipe in a book and Bob did a beautiful job laying, laying out how to tie this.But until you fish it, right, in whatever situation you're in, I mean, if I were going down to Island Beach State park and I followed his instructions, you know, chances are sure it'll fish. But like, there, there's just nuances that you figure out by putting time at the vice, right?And one thing, like Bob's first attempt, the reason it was called the beast is because it was so big and just tough, but it accomplished something, right? Each one of the flies you tie should accomplish something, right? It might not have been effective for what you were going after, but you learned.I need to go sparser next time. I need to get it deeper. I need, you know, to make it lighter so that it casts better. I need to change the hook, right.I need to go with a heavier gauge hook to keel properly in this current, or I need to go with a lighter one so that, you know, I'm hovering in said stage or, you know, like those are all things that reading the book isn't going to necessarily tell you, right? Because the fishery varies so greatly. Bob was fishing these, you know, most often off of, on the beach, right? On Island Beach State Park.Like, I don't fish them anywhere on a beach. Like, I'm fishing, you know, around deeper water, schools of pogies, or in rivers where it's deep and fast current, right.And I need to be able to cast it with an 9 or 10 weight repeatedly, 80 to 90ft, right? And if you tie it too heavy, you're not going to be able to achieve those.And by testing and tweaking and watching it swim and watching how the fish react to it, you're able to modify how you tie it and eventually those kind of understandings become ingrained in your brain, right? All those lessons learned, repetitive to the point where I'm pretty confident I can tie a fly to, to get what I want it to do. But yeah, it's.It's just fish it fish like, you know, sure, fly tying is an art form, but Bob would be the first to say the reason we're tying is to be effective at catching fish, right? Pretty. Doesn't. Doesn't catch fish, right. And, and I always thought it was funny because I do like the kind of realism side of things, which is great.And I don't think it hurts a lot of times, but you know, as far as, like, eyes. Most of the flies I fish, I don't have eyes, but I'll throw them on, you know, or they'll start out with eyes. But anyways, it's.It's one of those things. Put the time in on the water to figure it out.

Marvin Cash00:51:10

Got it. And, you know, I'm trying to kind of think through kind of an easy way to kind of set up the next series of questions.You know, obviously you're, you know, you're fishing, you know, stripers, but in a lot of different situations.Can you kind of talk us through, kind of use cases in terms of, like, you know, like you talked earlier about, like, well, I'm in the rivers, I'm trying to hang them.

Marvin Cash00:51:28

Right.

Marvin Cash00:51:29

Versus, you know, fishing them on a rip on a jetty or something like that.Can you kind of maybe talk about, you know, here are some situations, and this is where I'm trying to fish the beast, and this is my tackle setup, and this is how I'm presenting the fly.

Ben Whalley00:51:44

Sure. I mean, most of the time, I can't. I'm throwing a 10 weight with a fast sink. Like 400 grain head. Like the new striper line SA came out with is.Has been super good. It's the S357. And so that that line, they increase the diameter of the running line so it doesn't tangle as much, which I think is awesome.But that line getting it down so often, like, the fish are down low unless they're, like, pushing bait up. So getting down to them can be critical.So typically I'm throwing a fast sink, and, you know, I'll either go like 3ft of 40 pound to, you know, 2ft of 25 pound, or depending what's there, if I'm snagging, like, if there's a lot of snags, I'll. I'll either do the Russian roulette and go heavy and hope I don't snag and then break my fly line or have a.Or go at 20 and then break my tip it and lose the fly. So.But just gauging that, although, like, last season, I caught my biggest my PB striper on foot off the rocky ledges up here, throwing a 10 weight with a floating line and like seven and a half foot kind of stout leader and a beast fly. And that was.You had like this cross current cutting across this submerged island, and the fish were getting pushed in because there was a current setup. So I was throwing this float and it. I mean, I always try to picture the bait because I, you know, I've. I've swam and.And observed the fish underwater, too, and watched how they behave from my polling platform so much. But watch how. How they move into certain spots. And so the current gets so strong up here that baits just don't stand a chance.So they're getting swept across and the fish will set up right, kind of in the pocket below, below where it dumps off from that submerged island.So I was pretty kind of swinging it through, letting it kind of breathe almost, and then, you know, occasionally doing a couple longer strips just to kind of get it to pulse and kind of.I think the stop and go is a big one I've found over the years where letting your fly pause and move, sometimes if stripers are around or if predator fish are around, it catches their attention more than just a steady retrieve. But, yeah, those two setups, he sometimes on an intermediate, but I. I end up either fast sync or. Or intermediate or float.Like the float setup I was telling.

Marvin Cash00:55:10

You, very, very neat.And, you know, before we go tonight, I know you're, you know, you're one of the keepers of Bob's flame, or there's some other people out there kind of tying in his style flies that you watch or you want to kind of, you know, let folks know are out there. You're kind of building on Bob's tradition as well.

Ben Whalley00:55:29

I mean, one person that I've been inspired by, and honestly, you know, that. That sparked my curiosity and, and really I look up to still is Jason Taylor and his amazing skills with ostrich and bucktail. And, you know, I just.He does some really innovative, cool stuff. And. And it's neat. He's. He's down in Philly, but he. He fishes Jersey, and. And so it's neat to bounce ideas off of him from his fishery, too.But he's a. He's a big one. I mean, there's so many tires out there now working on this stuff, and some really talented ones.

Marvin Cash00:56:25

Yeah, I know Jason was on Masters of the Fly, I think, this past season, right?

Ben Whalley00:56:30

Yep, yep. Yeah, he's. He's super talented. He's. He tied a couple beast flies palmering ostrich. So he like splits the.The ostrich in half, the ostrich plume in half. And then he'll tape, he'll wrap it up, the mono. So you get this cool kind of filler, filler tail. Kind of neat.

Marvin Cash00:56:56

Yeah, super neat. Anybody else you can think of?

Ben Whalley00:57:01

There's. I don't know how to Say his last name. Andrew Warshire. He's been at it for a long time out of the gate.He, he shared quite a bit of tips and texts and techniques with me, which was super helpful. He spent a lot of time with Bob learning so that he's, he's always one of the top guys, trying to think who else not to say they aren't out there.I'm just brain dead.

Marvin Cash00:57:41

No, it's all good. I'll, I'll give you a break. You've been up since three something in the morning. We got a couple names.If you think of anybody else, text me off and I'll drop a link to, to like their Instagram page or something in there. Yeah, but you know, the good news is right so the Beast is an involved tie.I mean as you mentioned earlier, Bob was like let's not even put it in the book because no one wants to do this. But if you prefer to buy versus tie, you want to let folks know a little bit about the fly drops you do throughout the year.

Ben Whalley00:58:07

Yeah, so during my off season, during the, so during my guiding season, pretty much from mid May to mid October, give or take a couple weeks on either end. I, I'm not tying for my fly drops, but my fly drops are kind of small batch releases of flies that I do through my website.So if people are interested, you can check out benwallyfishing.com check out the fly drops page and you become a member.It's free, but it will get you signed up for the email to find out when the fly drops go live and access to the fly shop where those flies will populate on noon of whatever date that the fly drop is happening.And then it's kind of first come, first serve to get them and I try to, you know, include a, a good variety of, you know, big flies, bit like beast flies, some other patterns I've been playing around with and then hollow flies and kind of the staples that are kind of the day in, day out catchers along the east coast especially as far as patterns go, bulkheads, hollows. So yeah, if interested, head over there, sign up and, and I will let everybody know when the next one is once the season starts wrapping up.

Marvin Cash00:59:46

Yeah, so I will drop a link to that in the show notes. Ben, before I let you go tonight, is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners?

Ben Whalley00:59:54

No, I mean I just fish and share. Share your knowledge with everybody.You know, we're all in this together trying to do this, do the, you know, follow our passions and I just think it's great. The more the merrier the as far as getting into the sport.

Marvin Cash01:00:14

So yeah, very, very cool. And what's the best way for folks to get in touch and follow your adventures at the vice and on the water?

Ben Whalley01:00:22

Probably Instagram benwallyfishing.com Any questions tying related or if interested in getting out, shoot me a DM or or if charter wise you can submit a request through the website too.

Marvin Cash01:00:42

Very cool. And I will drop links to all that stuff in the show notes.Well Ben, I super appreciate you spending time with me after getting up very, very early and spending all day on the water. I really do appreciate it.

Ben Whalley01:00:53

Yeah, of course. It's always good to catch up. Glad to hear things are going well. Thanks for having me on here.

Marvin Cash01:00:58

Oh dude, it's been super cool and you know, gosh, I don't know, I guess maybe we'll bump into each other at Bobbin again or maybe sometime before then.

Ben Whalley01:01:06

Yes, hopefully.

Marvin Cash01:01:08

Well, listen, take care.

Ben Whalley01:01:09

Thanks, you too.

Marvin Cash01:01:11

Well folks, we hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Before we leave you, one more thing. If you listen to the podcast, you know about trout routes.If you fish Midwest lakes, you owe it to yourself to check out its sister app, Onx Fish. Midwest Onx Fish takes the guesswork out of finding new places to fish. Search and filter lakes by species size and abundance.Plus get local details and background info so you can show up with a plan A and as many backup plans as you want. Make the most of your time on the water. Head over to Onyxmaps.com today.And remember folks, links to all of this episode's sponsors are in the show notes. Check them out. Fish hard folks.