BONUS: Tying the Circus Peanut: Streamer Secrets and Fishing Strategies with Russ Maddin

Marvin Cash00:00:04

Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Butcher Shop where the Meat Meets the Water. On this episode, I'm joined by Russ Maddin. I caught up with Russ at the Vice cranking out peanuts for a trip the next day.Russ shares the guide problem behind the creation of the circus peanut how to tie it and fish it effectively, and how it's evolved since the early 2000s. He also generously takes us on a deep dive into his approach to streamer fishing.I think you're really going to enjoy this one, but before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items to make sure you don't miss a single episode of the Butcher Shop. Be sure to subscribe in the podcast of your choice.We're only distributing episodes on the Articulate Fly for a limited time, and if you like the podcast, please tell a friend and subscribe and leave us a rating or review in the podcaster of your choice. It really helps us out. And finally, a shout out to our sponsor, Trout Routes.We all know streams are getting crowded, and chances are you're not the only one at your local access point. Get away from the crowds and busy gravel lots by using Trout Routes Pro.With over 350,000 access points mapped across 50,000 trout streams and much more, Trout Routes has all the data you need to help you find angling opportunities that others will overlook. Up your game and download the app today.Use code artfly20artfly20 all one word for 20% off of your Trout Routes Pro membership at maps.troutroutes.com and a shout out to our friends at Schultz Outfitters.Schultz Outfitters is Southern Michigan's premier flying tackle shop, and the guys at Schultz Outfitters are some of the fishiest dudes on the planet. Book a day on the water, swing by the shop or check out one of their many classes taught by some of the best anglers and tires in the game today.Check them out@schultzoutfitters.com or give them a shout at 734-544-1761. Now on to our interview. Well, Russ, welcome to the Butcher Shop.

Russ Maddin00:02:02

Right on. Nice to be here. Thanks for having me on.

Marvin Cash00:02:05

I'm excited to have you on. And it's kind of funny, folks.You know, Russ is not the first person I've had on the podcast to tie while we've talked, but he's actually going to be tying the pattern. We're going to talk about tonight. The Circus peanut.

Russ Maddin00:02:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still, use it almost every day to some degree in form or another.

Marvin Cash00:02:22

Yeah. And so, you know, if we kind of jump back in the time machine.Russ, you know, what was the hole in your fly box you were trying to fill when you started designing the circus peanut?

Russ Maddin00:02:32

Well, basically what it came down to is, you know, 20, let's see, it was probably about 99, 2000. And I was working for Kelly at the time. And we had basically, then we had. First off, we had no Internet. That wasn't really a thing yet.And if it was, we didn't certainly have it as being a couple of river hippies. But basically what we had was we had either long shank hooks to make a fly big or nothing. There wasn't.People didn't tie two flies together that people take for granted right now. It just didn't. Wasn't. This was a pioneering kind of concept. He had a Carrie Stevens hook.So what we wanted to do is make a pretty good sized fly that the fish didn't fall off, period. That's what it was. It was given your fish about another three seconds to stay on. That's all. That's why we put the joint in there.That's why we tied the two hooks together. You know, when, when we first did. When I first did that circus peanut first off, people thought I was crazy.And fly companies ref to do it because it was, you know, doubling their production cost, etc. Etc. But the original reason for doing the the tuic fly was simply to keep the fish on longer.As a guy just wanted to get a fish underneath the net, you know, and that could give you the extra four seconds that you needed. And having that long shank hook do big gator rolls down river from the boat and fish would pop off. So it just was that.That's really why the two hook thing came about. And it was simply just a keep the fish on longer. The articulated portion of it was just a side effect. It's not why we tied the fly there.A little bit of wiggle back there. No, it was a straight up efficiency. I mean, for my purposes here, we're just tying a fly. It's just a weapon to fish with.There's no other reason to tie a fly. Like, I mean, that's it. You tie a fly the night before in the trailer because the guy threw away the isle of one in a wood pile. You know, that's.That's what you do. You go fishing the next day, you need an owl fly, you know, so that's the way we kind of treated it around here.And of course, back then, the companies that were producing these flies. First off, I had to sell the idea. It wasn't an accepted idea. An obscure company picked it up. Umpqua laughed at me.A bunch of other companies laughed at us. And no way we'll do tandem flies. No way will people pay $5 for a fly. That's what I was told. So you're right.

Marvin Cash00:05:03

Yeah. So, you know, you mentioned Kelly.You know, obviously, I know, you know, you guys are close, and he was influential, but, you know, kind of what did he contribute to the design of the circus Peanut? And were there other folks that that kind of inspired the design?

Russ Maddin00:05:16

Well, I mean, there wasn't anybody really doing any kind of hardcore streamer fishing except Cali. Not the way it modernized. Right.With sinking lines in a boat, casting aggressively, like, really doing that stuff without some kind of nonsense running line with a weight or a. You know, there just wasn't that many people doing it. And basically we didn't have two hook flies. So there was.When Kelly went out to Montana was kind of like, that was the year that I actually got that thing in, like a catalog, you know, somebody willing to make it, you know, so it wasn't necessarily. It was just something we needed to come up with. The. Needed to come up with a solution to keep a fish on.And selling that concept to obscure company worked out for basically fly fishing in general and the streamer fishing for sure, because they were the only ones willing to take a chance. And the stipulation was you got to put less on it.Got to put less on it because, you know, every little thing you put on there, it's not like today where you can charge $40 fly. You know, you're talking $4. $4 was a big deal. 598. I think the first ones came in at like 565 or 585.And that was, like, unheard of, because you're taking two woolly buggers in a nutshell and doubling your production cost and then coming up with a way to join them together. And that was the hardest sell. Actually. That was the hardest part of the entire fly was trying to get that thing mainstream. That was it.That was the hardest part of it. You know, fill in the void. There really was nobody doing actual streamer fishing. There was Kelly. There was Bob Lindsman.There was a bunch of steelhead dudes doing the swing stuff. You know, that was an ancient dinosaur technique that's still around, you know, the swinging stuff.So in terms of getting in a boat and being aggressive and covering those 30 miles a day to get one act of fish, you know, that was, that was pure Kelly and Bob. You know, there wasn't hardly anybody on the planet that was doing that. And if there were, we didn't know, you know, so it was basically.And you know, I remember Kelly and Bob rode those guys around during their first, that first book they wrote. And I was like the guy who wrote them for the most part.So it was, that was a great, you know, piece of nostalgia just to be a part of, was rowing those legends around, you know.

Marvin Cash00:07:55

Yeah. It's funny because I can think. I think I probably have a half a dozen of those.I would have probably gotten mine, let's say 0405 in the Montana River Fishing Company. I can remember going in there and we were fishing kind of the first time I ever fished a circus peanut.And the guide was super, super jazzed and, you know, went in the shop because I was staying in Ennis and probably bought, you know, one of every color I could put my hands on and brought them home. They're still on my cliff box.

Russ Maddin00:08:21

Right, right. Yeah. It's funny. It's, it's, it's, it's really taken for granted now, you know, the two hook jobby.And remember, it wasn't like we had really cool hooks. We didn't have no ax wide gap hooks. We had like TMCO streamer hooks. You know, like little dinky things. Now I call them dinky.But, you know, that's what they, that's, you know, that's what we had. That's all that was available. You just take a TMCO 300 and tie it to a TMCO 300.Or you take a TMCO, one of those nymph hooks and tie it to another nymph hook because that's, that's what you had. So it was like four. Four was like, oh, that was a legendary size. Oh, huge.No one's ever gonna, you know, now we're running stuff that's like dwarfs that stuff.

Marvin Cash00:09:13

Yeah, I guess it would have been probably the TMC5263s. Right.

Russ Maddin00:09:19

The three hundreds that, you know, whatever you had back then, I mean, that was just, it was just a short gap streamer hook.

Marvin Cash00:09:25

Yeah.So you were, you know, as you mentioned earlier, you know, the purpose of the circus peanut was really to keep the fish buttoned on for another 90 seconds. Right. So you could get the basket under them.So, so was there time or did the pattern evolve to have kind of a specific bite Trigger like, you know, some other streamer folks now try to kind of incorporate into their flies.

Russ Maddin00:09:46

Well, you know, everybody thinks there's some kind of legend of rocket science and there's really just a bunch of river hippies. So they're really not. But the dynamics of these flies are just simply to, to solve the problem. Right.I mean, you tie a fly to solve a problem, you solve a need. Right. So the need for me was just to keep that fish on just a second longer because you want a hundred dollar tip instead of nothing.

Marvin Cash00:10:13

Yeah. Probably easier to do that than to find new clients.

Russ Maddin00:10:16

Right, right, right, right, right.You know, and a lot of them been through, you know, some of my customers are still Kelly, you know, started with Kelly, you know, so These guys are 40 plus years of guiding, you know, fishing like 20, 30 days a year.

Marvin Cash00:10:35

Yeah.

Russ Maddin00:10:36

So, I mean, these are not like, you know, Kelly will look right at one of, one of them and say, hey man, you helped me write that first book because no one else is willing to pay, you know, the money that you were to, to take a gamble, just go fishing every day, you know. You know, if everything we take for granted now was actually freaking.A lot of hard work back then, you know, with no Internet, you know, no nobody leading the way. Nobody. Oh, here, here's a platform that everybody can copy and make a million different ways now. Yeah, you're welcome.But back then it was actually like really, really cutting edge. But the answer was right in front of people's faces the whole time, you know?

Marvin Cash00:11:19

Yeah, I guess the other challenge too, Right. Is, you know, a totally different way to fish. And the, you know, it's not like, you know, nymph and a bobber where you're catching fish all the time.So the rewards are pretty well spaced out, right?

Russ Maddin00:11:29

Oh, yeah.Sometimes there is no reward and sometimes three days go by and there's no reward, you know, and it's, it's, it's that type of thing that when you're just starting this, when you're just coming up with the, you know, even, even when Kelly was doing the zoo cougar legendary fly, I mean, half of the flies in the world are basically duped off of that initial design. You know, once the two hook fly came out.Oh, everybody had a two hook fly, you know, but it was really just hard work by very, very difficult, low volume fisheries up here, you know, we learn. And Kelly's like, yeah, you come to Montana, fishing is good out there, you know, it's not good here. It's actually really, really hard here.So a lot of times when you're guiding, you feel like you have a robber mask on. You know, like, I up in the parking lot or should I take him for the boat ride?You know, I mean, there's so many days where, you know, as a guide, you just shouldn't be doing what you're doing. And it's, it's.But you get to that point because you didn't know that 10 years ago, 20 years ago, you know, you just went out every day and you didn't put the pieces together.And it seems like everything's so instant now that the answers are so quick, you know, via Internet and via Google Maps and Google Earths and everybody's paved the way through hard work that, you know, now is just a click away. So that, that kind of.It's a little disheartening in some ways because you, you know, you're flipping down and you're like, oh, wow, there's a bunch of two applies. And. Oh, yeah, he had a shank to it. Thanks, Blaine. And you know, all these things, like, people just take for granted now. And it's not that.That actual 42 days of fishing without a bite, you know, until you go the 43 days. Not the guy who goes 40 days without a bite. This guy goes 43. You know, that's. That's what fishing is.That's how you got there to say, oh, yeah, by the way, I don't need to go in this kind of watercolor.And with 38 degrees in high water, stays like this for a week, I'm definitely not going to here, you know, but those are things you learn over time and through mass laceration and pain and suffering.

Marvin Cash00:13:57

Yeah.And then just kind of the old school way, like when I was a kid, you just kind of went to like, you know, like your grandfather and people of his generation and they kind of had all this knowledge.

Russ Maddin00:14:05

Right, right. And that's, you know. Yeah, that's exactly it. It's exactly it.It's like, you know, when you had, if you wanted to know what was going on, and let's say it's the east side of Michigan and it's the Ausable river, big famous drain, you know, ditch down there.And you'd have to know somebody there and if they like you enough and if they trusted that you're not going to set up shop in their backyard to start guiding, they'd be like, all right, yeah, there's some, you know, X hatch going on. Just happened two days ago. You're golden here, you know, now it sits. Click a button.And some guy in Illinois knows that there's a, you know, the gray drake hatch is going on the Muskegon River. And, you know, it's just instant. It's instant.Used to have to know somebody at the, you know, used to have to trust somebody, and that kind of is gone from the deal. But yeah, the peanut, that's, you know, Kelly had a lot to it because he was, you know, a developer of the streamer fishing.And, you know, especially in our neck of the woods, where it's very, very difficult day in, day out to do this, you know, Very, very difficult. So would say that, that the first person to really streamer fish was Kelly, because he's the one who put in the effort of doing the.And coming up with those. Some of those single hook stuff. And I just took it to that next step by putting the two hooks together. And, you know, in a lot of that.And then you start going into like the big giant stuff, which, you know, it just gets bigger and bigger and people pick their influence from, you know, the saltwater aspects of it. And a lot of it's that.But, you know, what I found here is, is some of that stuff only works, you know, the first week because there's so few fish here. So it's. It works great the first week. The big giant chickens, and then you're. You're kind of toast.So you try to look for more of like a day in, day out pattern that you catch fish on. Most of the time, a war of attrition, you can still do enough lacerating that you can generate a few bites.And that's where that peanut really, for me is. Fills that gap. And a lot of guys insist on fishing it still to this day. Some guys don't like running high, riding flies.I mean, you know, we put in the lead you put in chains. You could put in lead strips, lead wraps, different brushes. I mean, there's a lot of ways you can tie a peanut.So it's really basically a guide fly, you know, in my mind. And then of course, modern materials, you know, it's kind of what it is.I mean, it's really, really a guide fly that, you know, has been brought to the masses basically around that 2000 mark, maybe 2, maybe 04 before it got sent back five times because they couldn't figure out how to do the joining mechanism right. That, of course, within a year, everybody knocked it off. So it's, you know, I realize it's.You realize the dark side of the fly tying or whatever industry you call it. The industry without smokestacks. I call it, you know, industry, like some guy covered in coal coming out of the mines.And you don't see that at the Winston factory, you know, never guy covered in cola, you know, at a scott factory or a Winston or a sage or, you know. So I don't know if I call it industry or not. You know, I picture like zug islander boundary going on or something.

Marvin Cash00:17:44

Yeah.And so if we kind of like, look, work the pattern and kind of talk people through, maybe Russ, you know, back to front, the kind of the original circus peanut.

Russ Maddin00:17:54

Well, here's what we had. You know, I mean, you basically, you know, and I've always been a person to tie with. Like, you got what you got. You know, if I.If I was 8 years old and I had my. My little sunrise vice, and I used old ma sewing thread and a cotton ball, because that's what you got.But so, you know, the circus peanut can be tied with literally anything you can wrap around a hook. And back then it was like the estas came out. Oh. And we used to do barbaric things like make little egg balls and stuff with it.So I'm like, well, maybe I'll just use that. Because it was kind of the new thing, you know, back then. So I wrapped the estas around the hook and put a cut.And then I do like, different palmer ones and, you know, different shapes of wooly buggers and different rubber legs. And they'd be like, oh, no, you got to put less on that. It. Oh, you got to do less.We got to get that down to 48 cents for the rear, you know, that kind of thing. Right. So you eventually just come out with ways that you're trying to make the fly fit a bill that was more production oriented than anything else.So what we did or what I did when I first did the nut was take that estas, do some marabou, little bit of flash, join a hook together and do the same thing with some eyes tied on the bottom. And that. That was. That was it. It was basically, you know, a three material fly. In a nutshell, four if you count the legs.So you had like your marabou, you had your rubber leg, you had your sdaz and a collar. And the collar was always like, you know, flopping.Because back then nobody really used slopping, which was hilarious because now you can go through a hundred packs to find a couple of good feathers to tie a peanut with. There's like other ways that are a lot easier to tie them now, but back then you could get like a bunch of good slopping.And many companies said, what color marabou? What you know, what is the marabou in the front? And I'm like, there isn't any marabou in the front.I just leave a little bit of that fluff down there. So really it's, it's the, the cool part of the knot is you can tie this thing with anything you can wrap on a hook.And it doesn't matter if it's old school Variegated chenille to super whistle material that's had. Has yet come out in two years from now, if you can wrap it around a hook, you can make a peanut. And it's, you know, really like, it's a guide fly.You can manipulate the eyes, you can tie them in different sizes, but that's really what it was. The original one was just estas. Just estas a little bit of flash, some rubber legs and a collar.I didn't even have beads or anything because we didn't have the hooks back then. It was just two. Two little streamer hooks tied together. And they still work fine, by the way.You know, it's just a little bit more efficient hooks and things we can use now that it actually can, you know, hold bigger trout, you know, a bigger fish in general, a little bit better machined and you know, a little well done. More well done. But that's. That was basically the gist of it.And the initial phases of the peanut, where it was pretty simple, it was s daz marabou and the schlopping collar with some legs. And that's, that's. That's what we did. And that's what I did.And you start looking at like, you know, influences for some of these flies would be more in the bass realm, you know, spin fishing gear than anything else. You know, you say, oh man, these spinner baits, man, these a lot of rubber legs on those spinner baits. You know, I can do that.You know, you can do that. Look at the jig and pig, the old school, any of that stuff.That's basically the foundation of, of why and how the fly came about to begin with the rubber legs.

Marvin Cash00:21:52

Yeah.And as you were kind of, you know, value engineering it to have it produced, were there any materials that you just couldn't use because they just couldn't pencil out the math for it?

Russ Maddin00:22:02

Oh, yeah. I mean, the double collar that was out that. I mean, in Terms of just the first.First ones we did, it was always tried to make it as little as possible, you know, try to take all the materials off of it if you could, but. And then that's what people ended up getting, you know, that's what the masses got.And it's still as good as some of these versions are of these flies now. They're still getting. They're still getting only X version. You know, that's.That's the one benefit that you have is you always have a new material or you always have a little bit in your. Your back pocket, you know, to make a fly that's not fished by the masses. And that's a big thing around my parts is I don't even like to fish.Fly the same fly twice in the same stretch. That's how few trout there are up here, you know, I mean, like, if I. If I. If a fish gets his eyes as wide as a saucer, that's the last.I'm never throwing that fly in that river again. Never, ever, ever. I'm gonna throw that fly never again. And I.Yeah, most of the time I'm not really fishing anyway, but, you know, I don't take any advantage. You can get. And fly tying certainly the easiest way to start mentally, because you're certainly not going to be your angler's casting.That's not going to give you any resolute. Probably going to make you even more paranoid. The only thing you got is your fly.You know, I always say that most places that I go when I'm doing the demos and stuff, that's greatest and last.Probably the last great advantage you have, you know, so if you're not trying to fly, you might want to start or you'll be in that fly out of a bin that everybody else is grabbing and hope their cast is not as bad as yours.

Marvin Cash00:24:01

So, you know, you know, obviously over 20 years or so, we've seen a huge evolution in tying materials and hooks and stuff, you know, how has that changed the way you like to tie the circus peanut?

Russ Maddin00:24:12

Well, that's. It's a huge.It's a huge benefit to have all these great new materials and it's, you know, you can really create different, different shapes of your fly.Sometimes, you know, in the spring it kind of goes for me is like, in the spring I'll tie them thinner because the bait fish are smaller, you know, and I'm just going by that, you know, later in the year. And I need more weight in the spring, too, because the water's up darker. Not always, but this year happens to be back to normal.You know, for a while we were like terrified of flash, you know, so we didn't want to put anything, any flash on these things because fish would get terrified. Or they get used to it, I'd say. I'll say that more than terrified. They just get used to it. And if you're had.If you're the one fly that had, you know, some kind of matte flash, like some of the matte materials out now, that was. That's a huge advantage in clear, low, clear water with high pressure, you know, because you're going to have your a little bit more realistic fly.But yeah, you bury. Varying these flies is very, very easy.With the materials that are available now, you can make them wide, you can make them thin, you can add profile by putting a couple extra feathers in, or you can add a brush behind a collar, and that can make it a little thicker. That can also make it a little more buoyant if you didn't want to sink as fast. So there's many, many, many things you can do with.With a super basic platform like a peanut to basically fit most of your fishing needs. When it really comes down to it, the rubber hits the road. You know, you can do these things with plastic eyes.You can do them with chain eyes, you can do them with medium lead eyes, you can do them with tungsten, you can do them with cone heads, you know, so it's, it's really the amount of materials available nowadays is pretty remarkable compared to what we used to have, which was not much.

Marvin Cash00:26:16

Yeah. And the hooks are light years better too, right?

Russ Maddin00:26:19

Oh, so many light years better. You know, that's like you, you know, and I'm. Since I'm always thinking of the end result, right.So when I tell people, like, hey, when you're tying, you know, you might want to like, pay attention to what's in that river, what time of year, year you're going, or even something as simple as what color does that river have a tendency to run most of the time? You know, some rivers will tell you olives, so I like to match the bottom a lot of times. I've said that a million times in a lot of different things.But like, you know, modeling, you can model these fibers really nicely. There's, it's, it's really an amazing.Thank God there's the arts and crafts fly tires out there because otherwise we wouldn't have half this cool stuff.

Marvin Cash00:27:04

Yeah.

Russ Maddin00:27:05

So, you know, that's, that's part of it too. You know, I always get. It always bums me out as an angler first fly tire second, you know, create the fly to. As a weapon.But to, to know that like 90 of the flies people tie will never see water, you know, that's like depressing to me. But fortunately, they actually tie the products and help create new things. Because the sales aren't coming from a couple river hippies.You know, these aren't getting rich out with some guy in a trailer in Baldwin, you know, eating beans and weenies.

Marvin Cash00:27:41

Yeah. Unless they bought like 60 yards of Krennic flash and they're chopping up at night to pay for stuff.

Russ Maddin00:27:47

Right, right, right. So you're, you know, there's that too. So, you know, there's all.

Marvin Cash00:27:56

Yeah, and so, you know, I know you've got kind of various kind of hook and bead combinations that you like to time the circus peanuts. You want to share some of your favorite ones with folks?

Russ Maddin00:28:05

Yeah, it's actually, you know, that's actually a really, really good question.And, and what I've noticed, you know, especially if we're fishing this thing over 20 something years plus, and all flies in general, it's not just the peanuts. You can really, you know, change your distance of your flies with these beads based on what type of species.Some fish have a tendency to bite more from the back.Some have a tendency to like really eat a dead drift really well, like in your dam environments, where they just come up and grab it and come back down without like in a split second on a dead drift, mainly. So I'll make it pretty easy for the folks out there to, you know, if you're. Because people are asked that a lot, like, what do I need?You know, if I'm tying a size two, four, you know, size two hooked in front and a four in the back. A couple of five millimeter beads in there is perfect. You know, I like running two 5 millimeter beads and you know that I can go to like a 1, 2.And I think that once you get into a size 1 and a size 2, you probably are leaning more toward that 6 millimeter bead. So I do two 6 millimeter beads and like a 1 01. I can do two or three depending upon the exact instance that I'm fishing of the 6 millimeters.But let's say you wanted to do a 4 and a size, a size 4, 4. Don't. Don't get locked into one size bead either, guys. It says you really. There's a lot of them.I use 4 millimeter beads, multiple 4 millimeter beads sometimes to tie the smaller stuff, you know that some. And it also cuts down your weight a little bit.So if you can run three five millimeters with like a chain I fly, it's actually going to behave a little differently than if you had three 6 millimeter beads with a lead eye. So your beads actually everything you put on a hook has weight to it.So, you know, you can change your fly based on your beads and things like that as well. So that's a, you know, that's the straight of it. The easiest is, you know, one at 16 millimeter.I'm doing one right now and I'm, I'm tying a size 1 and a size 2, and I have two 6 millimeter beads in it. I'm gonna go to be fishing this fly for probably steel heads in the spring. So I'm gonna need probably some weight.Like I have small lead eyes on there on this particular one I'm doing right now. But it's two 6 millimeter beads. Another thing you can do is also if you, you know, there's all sorts of terminal tackle that utilize beads.They're like example would be like walleye, crawler harnesses. They have all sorts of other shape beads, like oval beads, cylindrical beads, stack beads all in a row. So really, really, really want to.It's a tough lesson to learn when you're getting some of these nipping fish to. If you just had one more beat on there, you might have got them.So I really play around with, especially if you're going someplace new, you really want to have some diverse spacing because you're not really 100% sure how those fish are always going to behave. And then again, it goes for sizes of flies too. And I think I saw in one of your bullet points here there was a, you know, some shank questions.So aside from the beads, you also have the shanks, right? I mean, we love the changers. People love tying them. It's really great, you know, way to make a fly bigger and swim, you know.But sometimes you don't want that, sometimes you don't want the swim. Sometimes trout are terrified of movement. I know it's shocking, but there's many, many places that move it.You know, if you ask one of those bait guys on the White river, right, what happens if you yank that minnow? What happens to that run? Those fish will shoot out of there like a cannon. Because it's unnatural, right?You think about a damn environment when those fish are getting Ground up and getting shoved through the turbines. They're not swimming at full capacity. Matter of fact, they're barely swimming at all.So sometimes in that first mile or two of fishing, it's important that that fly move as little as possible. I like to have.I like to utilize some shanks in that instance, I like to do not necessarily shanks in the middle to create a bigger fly, but I'll put them off the back end. Because sometimes those middle shanks can expose casting errors.It's not necessarily the shank's fault that you open your loop when you're casting, but it will expose casting problems.And the last thing you want to do when there's 40 boats barreling down on you with the same yellow chicken is to have your fly turn into some crystal ball and have a mercury hat hit you right in the head. Because I'm going to throw it at you or Alex. Well, but, you know, so it's it, it just a lot too many shanks can expose casting errors.I'll just leave it at that. So if you do put shanks in the middle of your fly, make certain that you do something off the back to at least balance it out.I'm not a big fan of putting a shank in the middle with just a hook and a shank and a hook, if that answers anybody's question out there. But I will do a two platform fly hook, bead hook, shank, and that'll give you a little extra wiggle. And I think I've done probably 10, 20 of these.You know, where I've tied the chromatic peanut with like a shank or flicker tail, I call them.But the flicker tail off the back gives you that like just enough hang down in some of those dam situations where you can get a bigger fly to kind of fully efficient a little bit, you know, where it's not really swimming, it's kind of kicking, then dies out. Strip trip, make it move again, go another 30ft. You're kind of boondogging it a lot.So I do that the shank stuff a lot when I'm fishing near dams or when I want a bigger fly. And I will do the shank peanuts too.The full outs where you do your shank setup where it would be like a basic swim fly with the lead eyes or with chain eyes or with plastic eyes. They use a lot of plastic eyes nowadays. Sight cast makes some really cool ones.It's another one of these little, you know, things that you can do to make your fly do different things. Pretty Easily. And those bigger plastic eyes are kind of cool. So I probably recommend doing some various flies alone.

Marvin Cash00:35:18

Got it. And so, you know, if. When you.I know you've taught this fly a ton, you know, what are some common mistakes you see people make when they're tying the peanut?

Russ Maddin00:35:27

Well, the biggest one that I always, that always gets me the most is I always tie my fly with the eyes on the bottom. But so many times people will die on the top.And it's not that, like, Clausers don't cast that good, but it seems like flies cast a little better with the eyes on the bottom. All I'm going to say, you know, we're not really tying a jig. That's another thing.I'm not really trying to take this fly down to the cellar just because it has lead on there. I want it to ride in a column. Not like you're never going to pull a fish out of the gated community.You know, if you can't see that bottom, probably roll somewhere where it's visible at least, because I. I wouldn't even cast in bottom I can't see. You know, I like to. I like to see the bottom before I'm fishing. I really, really do.So I'm not really trying to take this fly out of sight and into some kind of layer where the fish, you know, will never come up to eat a chicken anyway.But, you know, most of the time, I like to fish this fly where it's kind of visible, you know, just out of sight or, you know, you fishing with chains and you can ride them pretty high. You know, you run the swing string on there, which is that four set, two sets of two. And the chain eyes and that one you can animate.And, you know, it kind of goes on to where I always try to tell people, don't bring one action fly.And that's basically why, is if you go to somewhere, let's say you're, you know, North Carolina or like East Tennessee, because I've actually been there and fish, but you're in East Tennessee and, you know, it rained for five days straight and the water came up.The last thing you want to do is just have a bunch of hair stuff there, you know, so you want to make sure that you have some lead, you have some chains, you have some lightweight stuff, you brush heads or whatever, and that way you got your bases covered.If you're going to a place for the first, especially if you're going to a place for the first time, but let alone when there's Conditions involved or dam environments that can, they can wreak havoc on you.You know, you can be on the White river and have eight units running and then all of a sudden they turn them all off and in two hours you have zero water. And if you brought one action rig or one action lion or one action anything, you're kind of dead in the water.So it's kind of why I say you can tie the same peanut four or five different ways, same color combo, same whatever. You could have some with big eyes, some with very, very extra small eyes, some with chains. How about this one?No eyes, you know, so you can really do a bunch of different things with the fly. And that's kind of why I always call it the guide flies, because you can manipulate it so easily.

Marvin Cash00:38:18

Yeah, and it's interesting too, right, because I know when you first started, you know, fishing the Peanut, I mean, there were probably what, maybe three different kinds of sinking lines, right?

Russ Maddin00:38:26

Be less, maybe less. Kelly invented one of them. You know, Kelly made one, and that was mainly to fish that floating the zoo cougar stuff.I mean, what people don't realize is like the area that we fish with those, that it was like a 60 foot line. And the reason why we, we needed that type of line is because our rivers are moist dirt.Like, okay, your river's pretty deep at 8 inches, you know what I'm saying? So if it's low, it's like four inches.So how do you fish a three foot pit with six inches of water and then a two foot pit and then three inches of water and then four feet of water. So there's all these little troughs in there.And if you didn't, if you had something that sank, like we had teeny lines, you know, we had like a teeny 300 and a T300.So you know, when you're fishing those really small environments, you're in the dirt like half the day or you're rushing that fly out of there because you, you know, you had so much sync to that fly line that you had to pull so fast. And a fish would come blazing over one sandbar and over the next and hammer you.And you're lifting your rod, trying to pull the fly out of the mud and you would just miss too many fish. So that full sinking line became something that we ran a lot. And it was short enough that it would work really well in our Michigan rivers.And with that floating fly and even with some of the other flies that Kelly and Bob had, like, he had one that was Like a buck monkey. And then he had the stacked blondes and just typical Kelly fashion even back then, which was basically the derivative of a salt water fly.And it was on one of the keel hooks, which I. I've never been the biggest fan of the keel hook. I'd actually like mine. I tied mine straight flush, but that was another good pattern.And it was basically you just tie them in a, you know, something that would. That line would keep it out of those sand bars.Long story short, you could actually fish the sand this shallow water fish, you know, where you weren't rushing such a meaty line across that stuff. So that's. That was a huge development back then. And now, of course, with the lines they have now, it's. It's like light years.I mean, you got specific lines.I mean, I can go to Arkansas or somewhere and I could have four setups and I could time it so when that water drops out, I'm on rod one, rod to rod three, rod four. And by the time I'm on that fourth rod, there's no water left.So we didn't have that back then, you know, so that's another huge, huge, huge development, especially in the streamer game.

Marvin Cash00:41:29

Yeah. And so how did that kind of impact the evolution, you know, of the circus peanut?Because, you know, now you have so much more can, you know, depth control with the lines. Right. How did that kind of change the fly, you know, over the last 10 or 15 years?

Russ Maddin00:41:45

Well, with the. Especially some of those I series from like SA, where there's integrated you, you could run a little bit less weight.You can run some less weight, you can move the fly a lot slower.Because I can also run more weight with a type 3 type line, and I can hover it in that column for three times longer than I could before, you know, so a lot of it's not just about the heavyweight stuff or the unweighted fly. A lot of times it's the right amount of weight with the lighter line. And that thing will keep it out there, like in the winter time up here.We want the fish to find the fly. So the more the guys yanking that thing all over creation, he's pulling it away from the zone. He's not letting those.The one fish in that run find that fly.And that's, I think, a big, you know, huge asset to either the streamer game in general, but to the peanut in general is I'll go with small eyes now or extra small eyes in the winter, and I'll run a type 3 or like the Eye 2, 3 or some other type 3, the Titan type 3. And I'll let that thing just simmer out there, you know, not quite like a dry fly, but pretty close.Like, I want the fly sitting out there as long as I can keep it out there. And that's what that'll do. If you can balance the fly to that line to the river you're fishing. It's. It's.That's where the differences are made right now. That's. That's how you can. You can do better than others out on that water. Some keeping that fly out there longer. And it's not just about the casting.It's about what you're doing with that cast. You know, you can. It's a straight cast, casting straight. There's a lot to be said for just casting straight.Because if you cast out into these big waters out in Tennessee or Arkansas, where there's a big giant tail water and you're casting across that current and that thing's not straight, your first eight strips of line aren't even. They're literally useless because your boat is moving, you know, 16ft every. So, you know, every. It's just. You gotta throw straight.Throwing straight is huge. Even if you're casting short, throw straight, some of these, it'll really, really make a difference for you. You know, it's.It's that little devil's elbow that people get. It's the wrist twist. It's the, you know, something that sends that fly from perfect to slightly up river or big blob of nonsense.And as soon as that happens, you basically wreck your hundred yards. Because you're moving that quick in some of these areas.

Marvin Cash00:44:41

Yeah. Plus, you don't even have you. You can solve the sag problem now with the line design.

Russ Maddin00:44:45

Right, Right, right. And that's. That's another one. And it, you know, that's really, really where it comes so far now. And. And I work pretty good with the guys from SA And.And it's really amazing how, you know, you go to a river and you have four, eight weights, you know, for a day of fishing, it's like Kevin Van Dam out there.You don't have one rod, you know, so you, you know, you have a bunch of rods, and especially when you're boat fishing, and you can manipulate it as that dam turns on and off. So it's really, really a huge advantage to have several.You don't need to necessarily have a bunch of rods and equipment sitting around, but you got to have a few spools if it's one thing, if you're going to buy, make one investment this year as a streamer angler, get yourself a spool with some other line on it, you know, I mean it's, it's pretty much invaluable when you're somewhere and you realize that, oh, I want to fish a hair fly over the weeds. You know, maybe I want to I35 or a 357 to get really far down or I want to burn the fly super quick across that grass. So I'll use a i23.You know, it's a semi weighted, you know, swim bait type fly. So there's a lot of. It's huge. Probably the most.One of the more important things nowadays and really in fly fishing in general, people don't put enough emphasis on that line and guys will show up all the time and had this old beater that, you know, has been around for eight years and I'm like, hey man, this is all cracked up and sucks. Like, get a new line every once in a while. Yeah, it's, it like makes a huge difference.You could have a crap the worst rod ever and you have to put a new line on it and you're like, oh my God, it's great. It's like that big of a difference. Monumental.

Marvin Cash00:46:44

Yeah, it's funny too, because I, it's one of the reasons why I like those lamps in three packs so much.

Russ Maddin00:46:49

Right, right.

Marvin Cash00:46:52

I mean, for literally, you know, gosh, you probably, you could be out the door with, you know, a real two spools and three different essay lines for probably $500.

Russ Maddin00:47:02

Right. And you have the, then it gives you the diversity.You got them in a little bag, you throw them in your, your boat or your bag or your hotel room if you had to, you know, and if you, if you needed them, you got them, you know, and that's, that's get. Lines are huge. Lines are really important, especially in these big tail waters where they change so often.I mean, up here it's kind of, you know, I can say, oh, well, you need this for this river and this for this river. You know, mainly I can keep it down to like two lines, you know, depending upon the area we're fishing.And most guides can, if they're out there every day, you know, they're gonna say, okay, well you need this or this, you know. Yeah, but if you don't have one or the other, you could be, you could be in trouble. So, you know. Yeah, it's another.People say, what are you Using a guide. That's what I'm using.

Marvin Cash00:47:57

Well, I just kind of always tell people. It's like, you know, if you. If you fish as much as you want to, I guess it's fine. But I've never met a fisherman that does.So you need to kind of tilt the odds in your favor every time you're out.

Russ Maddin00:48:07

Right, right. And that's the same thing with biomass, you know, so if you. A little bit of.Well, now in the age of the Google, you know, you can actually, like, find out like, I'm going to July and I'm going to this river and wherever, and you can find out what, like, you know, what. What's going on, what's in that river in July.So you can actually narrow down, you know, some of the stuff you're tying and, you know, things like that. And some of the flows are available, some of them aren't nowadays. But, you know, that used to be a little easier.So, you know that that's also pays too, and that, that can cut down on some nonsense. You know, if you're fishing the crayfish environment and you got a shad out there, you're kind of in trouble, or vice versa.

Marvin Cash00:48:57

Yeah. It's kind of funny because I always try to kind of.I think one of the disservices we've kind of done in fly fishing is in an effort to kind of make things easier and to sell more stuff. We've. We don't tell people why we're doing what we're doing anymore. Right. And people don't want to learn.And it's like, well, if you see minnows when you drop your boat, you might want to fish something that looks like that.

Russ Maddin00:49:16

Right.

Marvin Cash00:49:17

You know?

Russ Maddin00:49:18

Well, if you're a dry fly guy and you see a, you know, a sulfur going by, you're not gonna throw a, you know, green drake at them. You know, maybe I would because I like big dries. But you're, you know, that's, you know, that's. It's the same thing.It's just matching the biomass of what you're, know, attempting, and that can really narrow down your efforts, you know, and it's. It's a. It's always tough when a guy brings his own fly because you want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. You want to have the.The great work that he put in at the vice and all this other stuff. So, you know, usually I. I'm the one who. I'll bite the bullet and I'll fish my stuff and, and, you know, I'll let Brook fish the guides fly.You know, that type of thing will split the difference. But, like, it's always hard to tell the guy no.We're running all black these days around here, you know, and the guy shows up with the whole box of white streamers, you know.

Marvin Cash00:50:20

Right.

Russ Maddin00:50:22

One of my customers made a little sticker for me. It says, unless it's tied with grandpappy's last hair, don't bring it. That's what he said.So it's like, you know, it's like it scares the fire out of you when the guys bring his own flies because, you know, it's been working for you. So you try to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but it's, it usually comes. Comes back. And, you know, I've learned.I've learned to not be so stubborn, you know, that's, that's why you're. You hire a guide, you know.

Marvin Cash00:50:57

Yeah.And so, you know, as we mentioned earlier, you know, you generally kind of like to fish the peanut, maybe mid column, kind of right on that visibility line, maybe a little bit below. Right?

Russ Maddin00:51:06

Yeah.

Marvin Cash00:51:07

Yeah.And so, you know, you know, what are your kind of, you know, we touched a little bit on lines, but you know, what's kind of your preferred line kind of leader combos kind of for, you know, your kind of core set of situations?

Russ Maddin00:51:19

Right. Yeah.If I'm just, if I'm limited to like one line and if I had to like feed my family with one line, I'm going to run probably a scientific angler called 25 and probably a 250 grain, because it's, you know, I put it on an eight weight, I'd speed it up a little bit and I'd run a peanut about a size 1 2. And I think that that would be pretty much for 99% of where I've ever fished. I could probably catch fish on that rig.And as a matter of fact, that's what I'll probably do tomorrow. I will probably run it, actually. I got a prototype that I have to run tomorrow, but I will have a rig with a 250.I'll have a 250 grain and a medium or no small lead eye. Peanut on tomorrow on that rig.So if I had to pick one cold 25, 250 grain for an eight weight, 200 grain for a seven weight, 300 grain for a stiff eight weight, like one, like Kelly's rod Echo streamer X, that, that's a good one for a 300 grain. So you know, if you really play with your rod, you know, another thing is, you know, Kelly always used to say that. I always laughed about it.But it's like these guys go on these hunts right out to Africa and they walk around there neighborhood and all the backpack with their, you know, slapping around in their neighborhood. And not one of these guys usually practice to go casting for the day out on the river.You know, the little bit of practice makes a big difference too. So it's, it's just like anything else.You want to train your, you know, pay the kid at the shop, support the economy, give the kid 50 bucks, take a 50, you know, take an hour class with the guy, beef up on your cast and not enough people do it.

Marvin Cash00:53:15

Yeah, amen to that. And anything kind of special you like in your leader setup.

Russ Maddin00:53:20

Well, I usually have a tendency because I'm fishing. Let's say I'm in an area where there might be steelhead around tomorrow. Typically I like running that 16 pound. I'll do like a 2016.I'll do a two stepper and you can vary your length based on the size of the river. If I'm fishing a bigger environment, I'll go a little longer. I can also do a three step or do like 25, 2016.But usually my business end and any type of situation where I'm going to be encountering something of size or in high water where I know it's not going to make a big difference, I'm running 16 pound. 16 pound fluoro is what I like to run. Usually it's, I'm going to say like five feet is kind of a rule, seven feet if I want to.If I'm on a little bit bigger area, you know, I might, if I'm casting extreme distances, I might do a little bit more taper, add some 25 to that, mix a little bit just so it transmits over a little bit better. But I'm usually at 16 pound fluoro. I'm at business end.

Marvin Cash00:54:32

Got it. Any, any kind of swivels or any kind of, you know, other kind of exotic terminal tackle.

Russ Maddin00:54:38

Well, I mean, swivels do have a place and I will say that it's probably more for like the more swimmy type stuff. And, and that's saying that I don't bring the, the peanut way up to the surface and run chains too. It's just I don't.My neck of the woods where I fish, I like to, I, I'm only at that 50 something degrees when that metabolism's like red Hot for like such a small time of my year that I don't really feel the need to run like just way up in the water column as much. But I. I don't run swivels myself, but I have in the past. It's not something I'm opposed to. You know, I just.If you're going to have some swimmy flies up there, you probably want to swivel so your whole system doesn't go cockamamie. Sometimes I run them with the tip lines. Another line that I run a lot on the upper rivers here is a side of a gangler type three tip. Titan.Titan type three tip. And then those lines I run a swivel because it seems like they're a little more prone to the twist. And my flies are a heck of a lot lighter.So I might have like two strips of O2O lead on the front hook, let's say, or couple wraps of O2O or something like that on the front hook where I'm just putting a little bit of weight out there. And that type three kind of has a tendency to twist a little more. So I'm not opposed to the swivel, but I. Or for swimming flies, I think.

Marvin Cash00:56:14

Got it. And so, you know, you know, I know we've. We've talked about practice your casting, which I'm a big believer in too, casting straight.You want to kind of give us kind of maybe, you know, two or three ways you like to kind of retrieve the peanut to get the action you want on the fly.

Russ Maddin00:56:30

Well, here's, here's an interesting one. And as I always, like, look at it, I'm not a big yanker. I don't use that rod like crazy style because it's really.I'm catching so many fish on the paws and on the dead drift that it's the action that's bringing the fly to you bring the fish to the fly sometimes. Sometimes it's the dead drift that's bringing the fish to the fly.If I'm killing it in the middle of a, let's say, shale slot in Arkansas or something. So I'm more of a point the rod at the fly while shaking it. And I also use glass all the time too.So, you know, if I start yanking that rod too far behind me and I get bit and I can't recover quick enough, I'll never catch the fish, right.So I just kind of point the rod at it more so than like, you'd see guys yanking across their body and doing all this crazy up toward the rower business. Like anytime you're pulling the fly toward the rower, you are running a risk. It doesn't matter what your damn fly looks like out there.If a fish bites and you go to swing that thing back toward the rower, you're pulling everything out of the mouth of a fish. So you know that, that kind of.If you're just positive to that fly, I think it doesn't matter if you're moving less fish, you're going to catch more and throwing straights another big part of it. But just if you can shake that. I have a tendency to shake that rod or to you know, flick it forward versus like yanking up river.I just had this adversion, the yanking up river. So I've seen way too much failure like when fish actually bite.And I know really good anglers that can move their fly and then poppers and they move it up river and all this stuff and it's like it's not gonna get you any more fish. You might probably miss more unless you're really, really, really, really fast. And most of my guys are not faster than a trout.You know what's so Billy Pate thing says like will of the angler is stronger than the fish and the fish thinks it's gonna die. You know, that kind of thing. And they're just faster than you are. So it's pulling that stuff up river is. I don't advise it.I'd advise pointing the rod directly at that fly and animating either cross side to the open side of the boat or shaking that rod at it. You know, pointing it directly at it, shaking it. So but it's really on the dead dress. So whatever you're doing with that fly, kill it at some point.You know, even if you're two handed burning, they're always going to eat it on paw. So strip ship, strip, strip ship. Pause, pause, pause. You know, you can burn it and pause it but you know that's, that's kind of what I do.And that motion is dead. That's why most of the tarpon guys do that nowadays with a two handed strip. It's because they're, they can't it up.They're pointing right at the fly all the time. So it's, you know, there's a little bit to be said for that.Just even if it comes in flat because let me tell you, it doesn't matter what your fly is like looks like to you, it's just what the fish do. The fish like it, it's great. It's a good Fly. It doesn't matter that you're yanking that thing and you're making 10,000 casts per second.You know, another thing is make less cast fish better. You know, test further cast more accurate, get the line straight, you don't have to mass lacerate. You know, just make a couple good casts.Are fishing so much area and anybody who's fishing muskies will tell you that, like you're fishing so much area on these rivers that like, you're not pinpointing. It's not like one fish right here and that's exactly where the fish come from underneath the boat.They can come the other direction from the other side of the river to eat or fly. So it's not like you're just fishing this, you know, specific areas. It's, it's, you're fishing a lot of real estate.You know, you can cast into these clear waters up here and you'll have a fish come from the next hole down sometimes to eat your fly. So it's, if they're aggressive, it's, you know, there's nothing stopping them. So, you know, watch those rod yanks. Definitely.You start pulling up river, you're always going to run the risk of missing a few.

Marvin Cash01:00:56

Yeah, so it sounds like, vary your cadence, you know, stay straight.And then you're also saying too, you know, basically animate the fly left and right with the left, right, wiggle and then jig up and down with variation.

Russ Maddin01:01:08

Right, right.I like the up and down a lot with the rod shakes, but incorporating big, big pauses into my stuff always like big pauses, you know, just, I can't emphasize that enough. And especially in low density stuff, you want your fly out there as long as you can, providing you're not trolling your fly or doing whatever.And yeah, there's down and away and all this other nonsense, but typically if you can time your presentation to the speed of your boat, you can do anything. As long as you're timed up with that boat, you can kill that fly.And you got, Instead of making 20 casts in 100 yard stretch, you're making 10 your flies out there twice as long.And that's, that's really what's going to, you know, the importance of timing your cast and your presentation to the speed of that boat in the river is, is very, very important because it keeps your fly out there.So that's, that's what I would recommend more than like, oh, I'm going to rip this thing across the surface and I could see it's two inches down below. Then I want to make another cast do the same thing.You're only going to get the fish at the pointiest, pointiest hat in the premium conditions doing that stuff.If you just get that down there and let it sit for longer and fish for longer, you're probably going to do better and you're going to make half the cast in a given day.

Marvin Cash01:02:35

Yeah. Which is a winner, right? I mean, it's right. Yeah.And so what we're really telling people is to try to fish and keep that line perpendicular to the boat basically, as long as possible.

Russ Maddin01:02:44

Correct. So if you're 45 degree angle and you're pointing that rod down, if you can keep that just ahead of that boat slightly, you're winning. You're winning.And you know that's up. That's part of. That's the rower's job too, to keep you on target, too, and keep the distance set up where it's not overburdening or whatever.I mean, everybody casts different, you know, and, you know, I fish with Alex and he's like, as far as you can all the time, you know, because you might be 50ft off the bank and there's a fish right there and you're actually fishing to the bank. But, you know, your fish is. You're casting 70ft because there might be one out here, you know, so that's, you know, you.You want to really, really hone in on your casting and pay attention to that pace of that water. And if your fly is too heavy or if your fly is too light. And that's really why I think you need to have the diverse presentation or the diverse.When you come to the bench, when you start tying at the fly, tie on bench, tie three of the same fly with three different eyes. You never, never know. One could actually run a lot better for you than another.And it's really, at the end of the day, it's not about what the fly looks like, it's not about what your guide's doing. It's not about any of that stuff. It's about in your head, which one's more comfortable for me to fish, where is the pace going?Then you work on your color and your other stuff, but it's really just getting. Be in as comfortable as you can. You're going to be casting that thing all day. You know, I mean, sometimes you cast these things all week.You know, there are times where you can cast for 30 days straight, you know, so, you know, that's, that's a lot of it is just really, really you know, I always call it efficiency, but it's, it's not just about whipping that fly around.

Marvin Cash01:04:37

Yeah. Because then you end up with your hand looks like a claw at the end of the week.

Russ Maddin01:04:40

Right, right. Yeah, right, absolutely.

Marvin Cash01:04:44

So, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about how it's important to come to the water with flies with multiple actions in your fly box.And, and so, you know, if we take your, you know, general streamer box, tell us, you know, what peanut style flies are in there in terms of size, weight, color, et cetera.

Russ Maddin01:05:02

Well, I mean most of the flies I run like on the daily are probably right around that 4 inch mark. I'll not saying I don't run 10 inch, 12 inch long flies because we do a lot in certain places. That's all I run. And it's not really a peanut.I don't tie peanuts that big because I kind of lose the effectiveness of them right around that like two out one. I rarely tie peanuts bigger than two out one on and that would have a flicker on the back of it usually.Sometimes I'll incorporate some shanks in the middle, but it, it becomes too much of a, it's not as efficient for me. I'll just say that. So the majority of my flies are four to seven inches.I'd say 2:01 odds, one at ones, a lot of one out ones and then one on one with the flicker is about where I find out like that's my max. But in terms of the column setups, I like the plastic eyes a lot. Been really running those a lot recently.Those sight line plastic eyes, very, very important in the gin clear water. We had the past seven years here.Of course this year is totally different, but for seven years they were, it was really important to have a light landing fly. You actually are spooking the fish when the fly lands. So that was a big deal. The matte flash stuff have a lot of that.With the lighter, lighter weight eyes. I'll go chains to get that next level down.In a lot of my areas when I'm trying to get that swimming motion, I'll do the swing string with the four chains and that fly. I usually make them on a 1, 1 at 1 and they're about 5 inches around there for a lot of, for a lot of those.For basses and trout when it's like 55 degree water and you could throw a cigarette butt with a marabou tail. But that, that is when I run those high riders. But unfortunately for me, in, in this area, it doesn't stay there very long, but I wish it stayed 55.I mean, there's places I can go where it's 55 all year. Dang. You know, and we don't have that here. We have 30 degrees and then we have 70 degrees. So there's a lot of variation in amongst here.And that's what makes the A lot. Some of the Michigan guys pretty diverse with their flies, with their designs, is because they're.You have to have hit those little niches on your river when you're gonna fish that the best or when it's gonna be the best for you. So, you know, I do tie that peanut in several different actions. I rarely go bigger than two out one on them.In those I will probably shake out because once they're that big, I'm actually not really fishing a specific item. I'm kind of just running a swim fly out there. So a lot of times I'll have, you know, the chains on them or whatever.And most of the time it's bass fishing or trout when it's perfect conditions, you know, running over grasses and things like that. So that my typical box will have multiple weighted flies, usually, you know, small, extra small, medium.I don't run as much medium as I used to, but I do have some. I always try to have some. And then I'll run the plastics and I'll run a swing string usually.So my flies are pretty, you know, between three and a half and seven and a half inches long, most of them at least for the peanuts.

Marvin Cash01:08:49

Yeah. And so, Russ, what do you have in your box that's not. You're kind of in your general streamer box that's not in the peanut style?

Russ Maddin01:08:57

Oh, I run a lot of the brush head. You know, Alex's flies run a lot of the brush head stuff. A lot of the brush head bait fish. That's like one of my.Probably my number two fly certain times a year. I really, really like them, especially in the small sizes. For me, I know he runs like, you know, 4 ounce and whatever and 12, 8, 10, 12 inches long.But like, around here, we just like. I'll run a lot of them for smolts that are, you know, like a one two or a two four. A lot of times I'll run a two four and I'll tie.I'll just downsize them, you know, and I run them kind of swimmy. Run a lot of flash monkeys, like one of my flies.I run those a lot too, especially the singles for the smolts, like on the small stuff work pretty good for steelhead salmon too.So at certain times a year that's like, I run those type of flies a lot, A lot more than I would in the spring, put it that way, where I'm just like delivering a lot of flash with a lot of weight, like for the kings. So do those a lot. But that's typically. I'm pretty well rounded in them. I mean, I'll do deer hair flies too.My biggest thing is by the time they're high riding, it's only like a two week thing. And if I'm doing something else, I'm not even going to be on that river when it's that great. So it's. And then pretty soon it's dry fly season.So then I'm fishing, you know, floating lines and big giant club dries. But I'll do that for, you know, four months a year, three months a year. You know, do a lot of night fishing too.But my streamer fishing kind of is pretty specific like to down to the river, pretty much down to the week.You know, I'll, I'll be patient and I'll buy my time and I'll wait and I'll wait and I'll wait for that stuff to get 43, 44 degrees and then I'll go fishing for a bunch for steel heads and then I'll turn around and try to go up river where it's, you know, a different setup where there's no migratory fish. Then I'll go back down and fish the small hatch.So you have, you have different time frames where there's actually like biomass that doesn't require giant flies. You know, it's kind of like shad coming out of a dam. We have like salmon spawning and there's, they hatch in the spring.So you have all these one and a half, two inch long bait fish coming out of the river system, which everything eats. Great time of year to come to Michigan by the way. Awesome streamer fishing.

Marvin Cash01:11:30

There you go. Before I let you go this evening, Russ, are there any kind of developments on the fly tying or fishing front you want to share with folks?

Russ Maddin01:11:40

You know, I've been working a little bit on doing some, you know, daytime, you know, big, big top water stuff the past few years. And you know, it's, it's a lot of fun. So that's kind of what I've been doing, especially on the trout side of life. That's kind of what I've been.That's where, where I've been kind of focused the past few years because we've had really great.This year is going to be totally different, unfortunately, but we've had really great seasons where the water has been super low and clear and like, resource scarcity happened really quick. So I've been running like, you know, bass size dry fly stuff for. For trout and it's been a lot of fun.So that's kind of what I've been doing recently where you be able to run, you know, something that you would look at as a bass fly and run it for a trout during the day. And it's. It's pretty cool.

Marvin Cash01:12:33

Very neat. Any. Any kind of equipment, prototypes.It sounded like you were going to fish a prototype tomorrow or maybe some new fly designs you're playing around with.

Russ Maddin01:12:42

It's actually already been around. The line's already made, but it's a different line green that kind of suits my fancy because I run glass poles a lot. So, you know, I'll see.We'll see what happens. I don't really. I kind of get yelled at for talking too much with the essay stuff, so I kind of just shut my trap on it now.But stuff coming out for these companies that are really gonna be a huge advantage for anglers, you know, and materials too. I mean, a lot of these cool materials coming out. You know, it's.Of course we get the high water year when everybody finally came out with all the cool, you know, matte flashes and the Renzetti translucency stuff and the, you know, the new Senyo shadow fiber. And of course this year, tie water blown out for days probably. So back to the old school. But you know, it's usually how it happens.Eventually we'll need it though.

Marvin Cash01:13:45

Yeah, yeah. And interesting too because, you know, you know, you say you like to fish glass rods.I mean, so many streamer guys like to fish some version of a broomstick, you know. What appeals to you about fishing glass?

Russ Maddin01:13:57

Well, you know, I originally started on the glass because my hand, I had like a really bad arthritis in my thumb. And it's from, you know, casting a lot and rowing and tying and just everything that you do on the daily.So I had to get surgery, but it was so bad where I couldn't like really use my thumb and the glass.I could, I could just grab the rod like a hammer, you know, just kind of grab it and I could just time it versus use any kind of thumb or index finger or anything to push forward. So I could just use it as a hammer because it took. It was more of a Feel and timing aspect.So it just kept me on the water for like six, seven years extra. And I eventually I actually did get a surgery, but not like the thumbs up surgery where they fuse your bone. So I'm not a hitchhiker, but. But I do.They do. It's actually pretty cool. So if anybody does have any pains with arthritis out there, they have a new surgery.It's called the denervation, where they go in there and they zap the little nerves in there. So it kind of just tricks your brain into thinking it doesn't hurt. So now he.Actually I can grab a, I can fish graphite rods now, but I like fishing the glass because I have for the past, let's say seven, eight years. And it's, it's, it adds an element of, of it's, it's a little harder.I'm just going to say it's, it's taking something that's a little bit hard and it's making it like 20% harder. Because all the little things you take for granted with the fight with a graphite rod don't exist with that glass rod.So when you're pulling those close to the boat, strikes are some of my ones that I can go back to in my mind. They're a lot easier to get those ones right at the ore blade with the, with the graphite rod because you could just whack them.And even if you're halfway through the apex of a swing, you still got something there. Fiberglass, rotted, won't save you, you know, so you got to do everything, Everything's got to be right.And yeah, a lot of guys aren't running the glass. There's very few that, you know, would show up to like Chris Willen's boat with like a handful of glass, 12 weights.You know, there's probably like very few people. But that's kind of what I got used to fishing because I could just do it longer. Just kept me fishing longer, that's all.And eventually to the point where I just really, really enjoyed fishing it. And you get the timing right. And they're modern.Glass rods are not like, you know, Chevy chasing the Caddy shack, trying to cast out there, you know, know, it's, it's. They're a lot swifter than they used to be. So there really isn't anything you can't do with the glass rod.It's just, there's a little bit of a curve to it. I'm gonna, I'll say that, I'll say that. And and there are ways to get yourself into the glass rods too.Like, you know, the rage Tim has the badass glass echo. And they're pretty fairly inexpensive.They do a pretty good job at doing some of the eights and nine weights and seven weight stuff and pretty, pretty worth getting. A lot of my buddies make the glass rods too. So it's, you know, fun to run their stuff and have their twists on it.Market Slow roll Mags up north Pat Mags Mags custom rods. So I run a lot of their stuff and it's nice to have good hooks too.You know, the newer hooks, the A racks and the MFC and building all the cool stuff for us. So all of it helps.

Marvin Cash01:17:42

Yeah, absolutely. Well, listen, Russ, if folks want to follow your adventures at the vice or on the water, where should they go?

Russ Maddin01:17:49

Best places is online. I'm on Instagram. Just basic Russ Madden.

Marvin Cash01:17:56

Gotcha. And you still on Facebook or have you given up?

Russ Maddin01:17:59

I quit on the face Twitter. But I'm. But I am on Instagram so it's Russ Madden M A D D I N. And you can find me up there?

Marvin Cash01:18:08

Yeah, and I will drop a link to that in the show notes. And Russ, I appreciate you taking some time.I'm bummed for you didn't get your ice fishing trip in, but I'm glad we were able to find some time to talk about the circus peanut tonight.

Russ Maddin01:18:20

Anytime. It's great. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Marvin Cash01:18:23

Well, listen, have a great evening.

Russ Maddin01:18:25

Yep, thank you.

Marvin Cash01:18:26

Take care. Well folks, we hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you.Don't forget to check out the links to all of this episode's sponsors in the show notes. Fish hard, folks.