S1, Ep 6: An Evening with Jason Randall

Marvin Cash (00:04-00:10): Well, everyone, I want to welcome you to this evening's episode of The Articulate Fly. It's my pleasure to welcome Jason Randall to the show. Welcome, Jason.

Jason Randall (00:11-00:14): Hey, thanks. I appreciate being here. Thanks for the invitation.

Marvin Cash (00:14-00:41): Oh, it's great to have you. And before Jason and I start chatting, I just wanted to give a shout out to tonight's sponsor. Tonight, we're sponsored by the Virginia Fly Fishing and Wine Festival. The event's in its 19th year and is put on by show promoter, Bo Beasley. This year it'll be held January 12th and 13th. That's the weekend after the Denver show in Doswell, Virginia. And if you go to the events page on our website, thearticulatefly.com, you can get all the details that you need. It should be a great event. I think, Jason, you're going to be there, aren't you?

Jason Randall (00:42-00:57): I am. I'm going to be there for the second time, second year in a row, and it is just a wonderful event. It's one of those events you can bring the family to, or even maybe you have a spouse that doesn't fly fish. I think it's a great event for that as well.

Marvin Cash (00:57-01:07): Yeah, it'll be a lot of fun. I think I'm going to bring my 10-year-old again, so he's looking forward to it. Well, listen, I ask all of my guests when I talk to them what their earliest fishing memory is.

Jason Randall (01:09-03:13): You know, like so many of us, I think my earliest memory is when I spent with my dad. And though I spent a lot of time fishing with him, he was a bass fisherman, so I can remember getting up at the crack of dawn and going out and shivering on an aluminum boat, drinking tepid coffee and eating stale donuts.

But probably one of my favorite memories of fishing with my dad, although it's not one of my earliest memories, it happened when I was just recently out of college, was a time that we fished together. He had just bought a cabin in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Bass fishing and northern pike fishing was his passion, and my wife, Joe, was in the front of a 12-foot V-hull boat. My dad was in the back and I was in the center and my wife was catching just one fish after another, rock bass and panfish on worms and bobbers.

And my dad and I were throwing bucktail spinners, MEP spinners, and my wife asked my dad, she said, do you ever catch anything on those things? And have you ever caught a fish that really bent the rod? And just probably within a half an hour after that, we landed a 25-pound musky fishing, and she was pretty excited when the fish hit, and it rolled down in the weeds, and then when it jumped out of the water for the first time, she started jumping up and down in the bow of that 12-foot V-hull, which is never a really good idea, right.

And every time she landed, my dad would kind of pop up in the back. And so it's kind of like a seesaw. As she was cheerleading from the front, my dad was bouncing like a cork in the back. That is one of my favorite memories of fishing, though, from an earlier age anyway.

Marvin Cash (03:14-03:17): Well, that's fantastic. And when did you move to the dark side of fly fishing?

Jason Randall (03:19-05:30): I started to play with that around that same time. And I picked up a fly rod, and it was in southern Wisconsin. It was on a private trout stream, and I had really very little instruction and no mentorship. And I became very frustrated with it. And I didn't catch any fish that day. I picked it up a couple of different times over the years as well. And it just, to me, it underscored the value of mentorship and training and instruction.

It wasn't really until probably 10 years later, probably we're talking about the 90s now, somewhere in the mid-90s. We were on a vacation with another family, and everyone had activities for the day except the other husband and I. The wives were going to do some shopping. The kids were going to do some kind of a kid activity. And my very good friend, Dan, looked at me and said, what do you want to do? He said, we can go fly fishing.

And I said, well, I've tried it. I really got kind of frustrated. He said, well, let's get a guide. And so we got a guide, and I can't even remember this guide's name, but what a profound impact he had on me. He took us out probably around 8 in the morning. And as a bass fisherman, I thought that was too late. But he said, no, it would be fine.

And he spent the first hour teaching, teaching both of us how to cast, how to mend, how to present the fly. And by that time, I'm getting itchy because as a bass fisherman, I think we've already blown it. And he said, no, relax. There'll be about 9:30 or 10. There'll be a beautiful caddis hatch. Of course, I didn't know what a caddis hatch was at that point. But I said, okay.

And you know what? It was magical. And because he had spent some time teaching, explaining things, mentoring, he even talked about some of the real biological aspects of our sport, I was in love. From that point on, I was all over to the dark side.

Marvin Cash (05:31-05:33): What river were you fishing in Colorado? Do you remember?

Jason Randall (05:33-05:44): We were fishing the Upper Blue by Keystone. And, you know, like I wish I could remember his name because I would certainly send them a big thank you.

Marvin Cash (05:44-05:56): Yeah, it's so important, I think, to mentor people in the sport because I think everybody that I talk to remembers that special time they spent with someone who took an interest in them getting the same thing out of the sport that they got out of the sport.

Jason Randall (05:57-07:56): Absolutely. It's one of those sports where, and I think most of those sports, you can really benefit from having mentors. And I've been blessed to have some excellent mentors along the way. Early on, I would certainly point to that guide, that unnamed guide who had a profound impact on me as an angler. But some of my earlier mentors were just people that took an interest in me. George Custon, Darren Sakas, and Bob Nicholson was a retired guide in Michigan.

And I could spend half a day on his boat, and he would explain things, and he would challenge me. He wasn't always an easy mentor, but he would challenge me to be a better angler. And I can remember he got on me early in my career about casting and being able to pick a target and cast to a target. And I felt really bad because I couldn't. And then I went home the rest of that summer and I had so much line whipping around the backyard. I didn't have to whip weeds for the rest of that season. It's like a weed whipper going around the backyard with all the fly line flying.

But, you know, I came back the next year as a better angler. And later in my career, I got a chance to have some wonderful mentors take me to the next level. Lefty Kreh, I met him many years ago. And he helped me not only as an angler and in the angling world or the business of fly fishing, but just as a person, too. I'm a better person for having known him.

And he and Ed Jaworowski helped me become a better caster. And those people, those are the blessings we're called to share. And I think that's a big motivation for me that's helped me go further because I do want to share the things and the stories and the information that they shared with me.

Marvin Cash (07:57-08:03): Yeah, and it's so unfortunate that we lost Lefty this year, but what's your favorite memory of spending time with Lefty?

Jason Randall (08:04-11:03): Oh, my goodness. You know, what a wonderful person. For those people that had never the privilege to meet him, any kind and wonderful thing that you may have heard about him is an understatement. He was all that and more.

But I think probably my favorite story occurred when he was a young man, and he was just out of the service. He got back. He fought as a combat World War II veteran. He fought in the Battle of the Bulge. He came back and was reassigned to Fort Detrick for the few remaining months that he had before he was discharged.

And he was assigned, of all things, to a biological weapons lab, and he contracted anthrax there. And the three enlisted people that were assigned to clean out the vats between every batch of anthrax, they all caught anthrax, and two of the three died. Obviously, Lefty was the one who survived, but he was in the hospital for a long time.

And the army then harvested his antibodies, so they had a perfect weapon and a perfect kind of an antidote for it as well. And so in a dubious honor, they named that after Lefty. They called it BVK1, which stood for Bernard Victor Kreh. And so they named it. And that's all over the Internet. It's a well-documented. It's a true story.

But then he was looking for a job, and he went to his mentor, again, underscoring the value of those mentors in our lives. But that was Joe Brooks, then the editor of Outdoor Life. And Joe helped him get his first job as an outdoor columnist. And he was one of the earliest syndicated outdoor columnists in the newspaper world.

They sent him down to cover a fishing tournament in Havana, Cuba. And there he met and fished with Fidel Castro, and he fished with Ernest Hemingway. I remember a story one time that he shared with me of that Hemingway experience, and he was a brand-new writer, and he fished, spent a day with Hemingway and the first mate, Santiago, who, of course, Hemingway immortalized as the old man in the sea, as the protagonist in that book.

But he asked Ernest Hemingway what type of advice he might share with then a novice writer, Lefty Kreh. Lefty asked him for some writing tips from Ernest Hemingway, of all people. And Ernest said, you know what? Good writing cannot be edited because if you add anything to it or take anything away from it, it's just not as good. And that's some profound wisdom from a literary giant. And Lefty shared that story with so many of us, and it is one of my favorites.

Marvin Cash (11:03-11:09): Wow, that's interesting. That's one I'd never heard before. That's really pretty neat that he got to spend time with Ernest Hemingway.

Jason Randall (11:10-11:10): Absolutely.

Marvin Cash (11:11-11:21): So I know your day job, you're a veterinarian, and I know that you're certified in fish health and medicine. And I was just kind of curious if that kind of grew out of your fishing interest or if it was the other way around.

Jason Randall (11:22-12:40): Actually, it really dovetails very closely with that. I became a veterinarian in 1983, a long time ago. And as an outdoor advocate and passionate outdoorsman, as I drew closer to fly fishing, I was intrigued with the scientific aspect of our sport.

And at that point, there wasn't a lot out there beyond simple entomology. And that had been fairly well documented. But there wasn't much information from the actual biology of trout and stream ecology and some of those aspects of the scientific nature of our sport.

And that's what really drew me to become, I went back to become certified in fish health and medicine at the University of Wisconsin. Then many, many years after graduation, which would have qualified me to work in the fisheries. But as I got closer and closer to the fisheries industry, I realized that wasn't my true passion. I just wanted to understand more about trout, understand more about river ecology and how that could apply then to fly fishing. But it really did. It one fed the other, and it gave me a lot of information that I was excited to share with the angling world.

Marvin Cash (12:40-12:44): And so was that sort of the jumping off place for you to become an outdoor writer?

Jason Randall (12:45-13:37): Yeah, it really was. With a scientific background, I thought it was important to share that information. Some of the information that I brought to the fly fishing world had been available in the world of science for many, many years. The first book, Moving Water, really shared information that had been published probably in the early 80s or mid-80s in some of the scientific journals and things.

And it was exciting. And I think it really helped me develop my first article that I wrote, which was probably eight or nine years ago now, in American Angler that really looked at the structure of current. And since then, it's probably been 30 articles since that I've written for American Angler. And again, many of them have had that kind of scientific flavor to them.

Marvin Cash (13:38-13:44): And sort of about the movement from magazine articles to writing books. I mean, that seems like a pretty big step.

Jason Randall (13:46-15:48): It is, but I think it's very, very similar. I think that the books have a longer shelf life, perhaps. And I think it's just perhaps they have a little bit longer lasting value. But I think one book led to another, and you just kind of get wrapped up in the passion of it. And you see yourself develop, too.

And I was blessed to have so many great mentors in the publishing industry. My early magazine mentors were the editor at American Angler, Steve Wahlberg, who was replaced by Ben Romans, and then the book editor, Jay Nichols. They really helped me develop and grow as a writer and helped me find my voice and my style.

And I'll never forget the first book that I worked with with Jay. I was so excited. It was Moving Water. It's really a study of the structure of current and how it affects fly fishing, especially nymph fishing when we have to cross through faster layers of current to keep our flies in the strike zone, which is the slowest moving water near the bottom, which is where the trout are and which is where the food is.

But I can remember I was so excited that I think I submitted 90,000 words for this first book. And Jay, the editor, he chopped out 30,000 words. He said, now make these other 60,000 words better. And he gave me the adjective for my writing style. He said, you have circumlocution. Okay. I had to go look that up, and I knew it wasn't a compliment when he said it, but it is the literary equivalent of beating around the bush. So, you know, I came back at the rewrite and I had a much better book because of his influence, because of circumlocution.

Marvin Cash (15:49-16:12): So it's interesting, too, because I know you put out four books, what, in about five years, six years? Yeah. And I mean, they're not short and they're incredibly thorough. How were you able to juggle, you know, you still want to fish, you have a family, you have a career. I mean, there must have been phenomenal discipline to write and ship books at that kind of a pace.

Jason Randall (16:12-18:02): It was a pretty fast pace. There's no doubt about it. Four books in that short of a period is really a pretty fast clip. Plus, I was writing in every issue at that point on several magazines, and it was intense. But you just get the passion just catches you, and you get snowballed and caught up in it. And the more information that I shared, the more I wanted to share.

And the third book, which was on the trout themselves, the trout sense really studies their sensory sense of vision and hearing and smelling. And that book really forced me to a tremendous amount of research. I learned more in writing that book, I think, than I ever anticipated. I really had to dig out a lot of that information.

But in the process, I became acquaintances with many of the leading biological researchers in the field of trout biology. I talked to people that were very, very much at the forefront of like trout vision and the relationship of ultraviolet light and in freshwater fishes as compared to the marine water fishes. And the more you learn, the more it takes you on its journey.

And at the end of that book, I think at the end of the book, we ended up with 21 pages of bibliography, different sources and references that had gone into the compilation of that book. It was an intense undertaking, but it was one of those ones where I really grew and I learned a ton that I was so excited to put into the pages of that book.

Marvin Cash (18:02-18:12): And so do you like to write like at a set time every day or do you like to wall off a large period of time to write kind of in spurts? I'm always – I find the creative process really fascinating.

Jason Randall (18:14-18:58): Absolutely. And that was a great way of looking at it. It's a great creative outlet. And it really – it's like an artist who paints. I can see how they become obsessed with it, and I think that's what captured me as well.

But I'm a very early riser, and so I'm usually up by 4:30 in the morning. And to me, a couple of cups of coffee and the quiet of that period of the day was very conducive to writing. And so I would write from 4 o'clock every morning until about 7. And then I would spend the evenings doing the research and getting everything pulled together. And then it just kind of takes over, I think.

Marvin Cash (18:59-19:03): No, I'm sort of finding that with this podcast and the website that I'm running. It does sort of take over.

Jason Randall (19:03-19:13): Yeah, you've got a big project now. This is exciting. I'm excited for you. This is really a great way of sharing information as well. And I think it really reaches a whole different angling audience.

Marvin Cash (19:14-19:41): Yeah, I hope so. It's been on my to-do list for a long time. And I've kind of rejiggered some things in my life to be able to do it. And I'm super excited that you're here with me tonight, and I appreciate it so much. And I know your last book, Nymph Masters, which I thought was really great, and I bought it. I think I had you sign it for me last year at Bo's Show. Yeah, thank you. I remember that. Talk about how autobiographical that book is from your growth.

Jason Randall (19:41-22:00): It is very much so. I think if you look at the first three books as kind of the foundation, Nymph Masters is a superstructure upon which all that is built. By that time, I had really broadened my depth of knowledge and my experience as an angler. But I'd also, in being involved in the fly fishing industry, I had just become friends with so many wonderful anglers.

And I thought, what better way of presenting a topic than to have corroboration with some of the best names in nymphing or just in angling in general. But people like Joe Humphreys and Lefty Kreh and Ed Jaworowski, some of my mentors, to be able to share their ideas with people like George Daniel and Gary Borger and Landon Mayer and Ed Engel. People that I love to fish with, Tom Baltz and Chad Johnson and Ben Furimsky, these are all wonderful anglers.

And it was just, I think, a privilege. The research on that was awesome because I hung out with friends and we fished all the time. But I was able to learn how each of them, I think, had solved the problems in nymph fishing. The main problems are is getting your flies down to where the trout are rather than having your flies get trapped in mid-current where the mid-levels are where the fastest flow of waters, but those trout and the food and our flies all need to be at the bottom.

But it was amazing to me how many of these talented anglers had solved those problems in different ways, whether it was the way that they cast and deliver the flies. Presentation is huge. Presentation, I think, is probably the biggest and sometimes most overlooked aspect in nymph fishing because you're going to catch more flies with maybe not the absolutely correctly choiced fly, but presented extremely well. You'll catch more flies literally with the wrong fly that's presented well. You're going to catch more fish with the wrong fly in the right presentation than you will with the wrong presentation of the right fly.

Marvin Cash (22:00-22:20): Yeah, I think it's interesting because I'm always trying to simplify things and particularly for new anglers. And I think that's a real blessing if people will embrace it to not, you know, you know, everyone says in so many instances that, you know, flies are there to basically be sold to fly fishermen, not necessarily to catch fish, but to get really good at your presentation and you can really skinny down your fly box.

Jason Randall (22:20-23:16): That's true. That's true. And it's amazing how many of those really top anglers maybe have less than a dozen flies, but they really focus on presenting those flies effectively in such a way that trout will take them.

And so many times we come across feeding trout, especially when there is no specific hatch going on, trout are feeding less discriminately and more opportunistically. They're feeding up for a variety of food sources, like being at the buffet. You might have a little of this, a little of that, one of these, you know.

And so I think the fly choice is something sometimes we obsess over, and it is important. I mean, I do try to put a lot of attention on choosing the right fly. But if we can choose a decent fly and present it well, I think we've really enhanced our chances to catch fish.

Marvin Cash (23:17-23:30): Yeah, it's interesting. What do you think? And it's kind of funny because I've interviewed several people that are very active in tight-line nymphing or competitive fishing. And what do you think some of the biggest misconceptions people have about tight-line nymphing?

Jason Randall (23:31-26:18): I think it's just how effective it truly is. Under the right circumstances, it's not the nymphing answer for every circumstance because there's still opportunities where you're going to want to use a suspension device or a floating indicator. Certainly when you can't get close enough to your target to use a tight-line approach, or maybe there's a current seam or thread that you need to drift through that you just can't reach otherwise, or from a drift boat, I think still those floating suspension style indicators are the best.

But under the right circumstances, I think tight-line nymphing oftentimes outperforms these other methods because it reaches those two goals of nymph fishing, which is really improving your strike detection by having a more linear connection to the flies, but also keeping your flies in the strike zone, which is the bottom 20% of the water column.

And I think that a lot of times we're calling these techniques more and more either tight-line techniques or contact techniques because they do emphasize two points of contact, staying in contact with those flies, and your fly staying in contact with the strike zone. But you can actually achieve that under the right circumstances with a strike indicator as well. But it forces you to make some adjustments.

And when I did the research for the book, fishing with people like Ed Engel and Gary Borger, those are guys that really probably get the most out of a floating indicator of anybody I've fished with. But they really do try to reach those two goals of contact, those two points of contact, contact with the flies and contact of the flies with the bottom.

And Gary oftentimes does it with a little more weight. Ed Engel does it with, you know, again, balancing his rig so that you don't have too large of a suspension device relative to the size or weight of your presentation. And one of the funny things that Joe Humphreys shared with me when I fished with him, he said the difference between a good nymph angler and a great nymph angler is two split shot, getting your flies down to where the trout are.

And I think contact nymphing, the tight-line nymphing techniques, really do that most effectively, but not exclusively. Again, I think you can balance the rig either with a little more weight or a smaller strike indicator. I think we over-suspend those things. But you can get that with a suspension or flotation device too. I think you have to work a little bit at that.

Marvin Cash (26:18-26:43): Yeah, it's interesting. And it can be a little bit intimidating. So, you know, if you were just an average angler who was interested in tight-line nymphing and you start to look at it and it's like, gosh, I got to get new flies. I got to buy all different kinds of tippet, got to get tippet rings. What would be kind of the simplest way to try tight-line nymphing to get that positive reinforcement of the experience to kind of give you the fuel to dig into it a little bit deeper?

Jason Randall (26:45-29:20): Well, I think with anything that we're going to learn or try to develop, there's going to be a bit of a learning curve. And I think you have to be patient with it. You didn't pick up the fly rod the first time and catch 60 fish. And I think you can work towards that goal.

But I think keeping it simple is probably one of the best ways of doing. I don't think if you dive into a lot of the real technical aspects of tight-line nymphing, you can get kind of lost. But I think a simple leader right now, I'm advocating a very simple leader system, especially for people that are new to the tight-line nymphing that just starts with a Scientific Anglers, I'm sorry, 15-foot odd X leader and just tying a little bit of high visibility monofilament onto that and then terminal tippet and tackle. And that, I think, is a simple way of addressing the leader needs for that.

But I think also just maybe going, taking a class. A lot of the angling clubs have speakers come in that do classes. I know I do a lot of streamside classes and club presentations and classes. A lot of people do. George Daniel does. Devin Olsen does. People that are well-versed in tight-line nymphing.

But I think getting mentorship, again, just like any other aspect of our sport, getting education, quality education is key. But I think if you can start with that basis, that builds a very good foundation for the basic skill set. And I think then once you get out and keep practicing on the river, especially as you catch more fish and you learn what works in your hand, I think that experience value is a real attribute as well.

But also there's a lot of great books out there. George just brought out another book, too, that's kind of dynamic nymphing, too. Nymph Masters is the book that we brought out last year, a great resource. And I think, again, fishing with some guides, experienced guides that are able to teach that, going to shows, taking classes, I think that's a wise investment. We do a lot of classes at the larger fly fishing shows. And I think if you invest that time and effort into that, I think it pays dividends.

Marvin Cash (29:20-29:27): Yeah, and I would have a hunch that you probably are teaching one of those classes or giving a seminar on that in Virginia and probably in Texas.

Jason Randall (29:28-29:52): Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I'll be teaching both of those things at both of the Virginia and Texas shows, and they're very well attended. And I think after something like that, after that kind of an educational experience, it's a small investment in time and energy that you can go out. And I get emails from people all the time that have just done one of those two-hour classes. And, you know, then they build on that.

Marvin Cash (29:53-29:59): Yeah. And are you going to be doing similar classes and speaking engagements at the fly fishing shows with the Furimskys as well?

Jason Randall (30:00-30:44): Absolutely. Absolutely. I'll be in Denver this year. I'll be in Edison in the greater metro New York area. I'll be in Atlanta. I'll be at Pleasanton in California. And I usually do probably all but one or two of Ben Furimsky's shows.

And those are just like those shows. Those are full of energy, a lot of educational opportunity. If people could take the time and effort to get to a show, if it's close enough to them and it's feasible, the amount of information that is shared by some of the leading people in our sport is absolutely phenomenal. And I think that it's certainly well worth the effort.

Marvin Cash (30:45-30:57): Yeah. I'm always amazed. I always tell people I think fly fishermen are some of the most generous people I've ever met in my life. I think outdoorsmen are in general, but fly fishermen in particular seem to be very, very giving of their knowledge.

Jason Randall (30:58-32:12): I agree with you. And I grew up, like I said, with my dad. I grew up as a bass fisherman. And I was, for several years, I was a tournament bass fisherman. And you talk about jealously guarding secrets. If you were pre-fishing for a tournament or even just going out to fish and you noticed another boat where some fishermen were just catching a lot of fish and you kind of eased over there and said, hey, you guys are killing it. What are you doing? They would kind of hide it and say, oh, I don't know. We're just fishing, you know, crankbaits, you know. I don't know.

But if you went up to another angler, and I've done this many times, and you got somebody there that's really, really catching fish, and you go up and ask that angler, what are you doing? You are really fishing well. That person is usually going to take the time and explain. And I've had people even have me flies and say, you know what? Here, why don't you throw this fly over there and try it?

And I've never met more generous people than I have in the angling world. They're just passionate about what they do, but passionate and happy and eager to share that knowledge.

Marvin Cash (32:12-32:15): Yeah, it's good for your fishing karma, too, to help other people out.

Jason Randall (32:16-32:17): Yeah, definitely.

Marvin Cash (32:19-32:36): So we talked about the beginners and kind of taking the first steps. And, you know, there are plenty of shows, so there's really not a lot of excuse to try to get out there and make one of those. But if you're more experienced, what do you see more experienced nymph anglers doing consistently that hurts their ability to be a more effective nymph angler?

Jason Randall (32:37-32:39): That hurts their ability? Yeah, that they need to work on.

Marvin Cash (32:40-32:44): If you said, I saw 10 people, I bet you 8 out of 10 of those people are going to do X.

Jason Randall (32:45-36:47): Yeah, okay. I think a lot of times we end up repeating what doesn't work. You know, the definition of insanity by Albert Einstein was doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting a different result. And I think, again, I'm blessed with having worked with so many great nymph anglers and anglers in general and being able to benefit from their wisdom.

But, you know, if you are fishing and doing tight-line and you're not catching fish, that's the first tip off that you're doing something wrong. And I think, again, focusing on presentation and I think just working on getting your flies to the strike zone, staying in touch with those flies during the drift, getting a good drift.

And I'm always learning. I think continuing to commit yourself to growing and learning as an angler. I got a fish with Vladi Trzebunia a couple of years ago in Poland, and he's obviously the grandfather of Polish nymphing, kind of introduced the whole thing 20 or 30 years ago. And just seeing the different nuances of what he's doing with presentation, they're using a lot of jigs.

And, of course, the Perdigon jigs are huge now in nymphing and the nymphing world. And Perdigon means, in Spanish, it means pellet, which helps improve the sink rate of those flies, getting them to the strike zone, and then keeping them in the strike zone during the drift. But the jig version of that actually kind of floats upside down with the hook point up.

And he was kind of doing a slight jigging presentation through the drift and catching more fish. And I noticed what he was doing and, you know, just talked to him about how to make that a more natural presentation. It's not merely enough for our flies to be down there in front of trout, but trying to give it that lifelike effect is huge.

And I saw one time we were fishing together and we swapped stories and we swapped flies. It was delightful. We did it over a cup of espresso. I think he was drinking tea, though. And we opened up our fly boxes and shared our flies and things like that. And had a delightful time and spent a lot of time on the river.

One time he hooked that. And I said, you know, Vladi, I didn't see that strike. I didn't even know. I said, what did you see that I didn't see? And he turned around and he said, nothing. I said, I struck there because that's where the fish should have been. And so those little things you know something as simple as a blind hook set because that's where the trout should have been if he'd have been there you know he would have caught him and and just subtle things like that but changes in presentation i think the best anglers back to that question what what do we see that might be hurting uh our development as anglers i think is not being open to change and not being open to that personal growth and development that will take you to the next level.

Just doing the same thing over and over every time you go to the river because it worked a little bit. Well, maybe a new methodology or a new variation might work a little bit better. And I think that's what we have to be open to. And that's one of the common, I think, characteristics of some of these top anglers is, man, they're excited about this stuff. They're like, what are you doing that I'm not doing? Oh, that's cool. I want to try that. You know, they're very receptive to any new idea.

Marvin Cash (36:48-37:12): Yeah, it's interesting. I know I really struggle with that kind of remembering that every day is different and every day is new and sort of as a fisherman trying to kind of go through a progression when I'm on the water. So, you know, that really resonates with me because it's something I try really hard to remember to do. And I always just get excited because I don't get to fish as much as I like to and just get out on the water. And sometimes it doesn't work out as well as I would hope.

Jason Randall (37:13-37:14): Oh, yeah, I know.

Marvin Cash (37:14-37:37): Well, I know you're also a member of the TFO advisory staff. And I know about a year ago you worked with them to put out the drift rod. And I was kind of curious to hear about that development process and what it was like and how long it took. And kind of because I don't think people, you know, we sort of understand how rods are made, but I don't know that we really understand very well the kind of development and design process.

Jason Randall (37:39-42:02): Yeah, I didn't either. I learned a lot in that process, too. And that came about by a cup of coffee between Lefty Kreh and Ed Jaworowski and Rick Pope, the president of TFO at that time. And we just had a cup of coffee together. And, you know, I said, I just, there isn't a good family of nymphing rods in the TFO lineup of rods. And we talked about the importance of that and changes and trends in our sport and the need, I think, to really focus on that.

And Rick Pope, he's just a very wonderful influence in our sport, and enough can't be said about his impact on it. And he's very open and eager for these types of ideas. And he says, well, we kind of have this vision and this prototype at this stage that was going to be developed into a nymphing rod. And he literally handed me the convertible rod concept and prototype for the drift rod.

It was a rod that was to start at a nine-foot four-piece rod in a 3-weight size. And they could be configured then literally to be either nine-foot, 10-foot, 11-foot, or 12-foot. And they thought that appealing to the angler who really only wanted to carry one rod to the river, but maybe liked a backpack or a horseback ride or wander the river and maybe would want to be able to fish in different styles and circumstances, that versatile rod would be the answer to that angler's needs.

And so my idea originally, I think, was to make a pure dedicated nymphing rod, but the way it developed, I fell in love with this idea of a versatile rod. And at 10 foot, at the configured length of 10 foot, that drift rod is a very good nymphing rod. At nine feet, it's a very good dry fly rod. At 10 feet, the nymphing, it's just got the right balance and the feel for it.

If you need a longer rod to reach out across the current seam or to extend that drift a little bit or to reach a little further, an 11-foot nymphing rod will work. It's a little tip-heavy at that point. As a nymphing rod, it would be a very limited use for me. But if I switch it to a 12-foot, it becomes a beautiful micro-Spey, kind of a small streamer rod for trout.

So it really kind of is a four-in-one rod series. And it really fills a need, I think, in the availability of rods that really don't – there's been a couple of other versatile rods that have been introduced in the market, but they really lack the true versatility that the drift rod has. The drift rod has a special stripping guide that you can kind of weave in and out as you need to is you introduce different segments to change in length. You introduce those right in front of the handle segment.

And then it's got an easy access stripping rod that you can put the line back through the guides without restringing the whole rod. So you can change lengths in moments on the stream without having to pull all the line down through the rest of the rod and restringing it. So it is truly a versatile rod that really satisfies that need.

But that rod has received a tremendous amount of success and a lot of accolades because of its true versatility. Now we're coming back, though, and we're going to introduce that. We're going to bring out a whole new family of rods, the Stealth Rods from TFO. And those are going to be fixed-length dedicated nymphing rods, single-purpose rods to satisfy that need in the market. So kind of two different concepts in that and those two different rod families.

Marvin Cash (42:02-42:05): And when do you expect to be finished developing the Stealth Rod?

Jason Randall (42:06-44:12): Well, the Stealth Rod is at about its third stage of prototype right now, and we've had some awesome people contributing to the design. The design process is all very interesting because we kind of set the parameters for our field team, the people that are setting kind of the specs on that rod. We kind of give those parameters to the engineers, and we're blessed with TFO to have one of the greatest rod engineers, I think, in the business, BJ Masterson.

And he can just kind of intuitively take those conceptual ideas and parameters and bring it out pretty close to a final product. And I think we're on our third stage of developing that rod now. And it's really close. I think it's going to be out probably in the next three or four months, probably in time for most of the show season.

And it's going to be, it is everything that I could envision in having in a dedicated nymphing rod. It is light as a thought. It casts like a dream. It's got very crisp action, which you need to deliver very, you're not casting a lot of line oftentimes with a nymphing presentation, especially in tight-line. So you don't have the benefit of a weight forward line to load that rod.

So the rod has really got to be very easy to load. And the delivery of that cast, you can't have a lot of recoil or memory. It can't bounce a lot because that's going to really degrade your cast and really handicap your presentation. So a lot of different features, and I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot about rod action and recovery and terms like that. My vocabulary is a lot different, I think, through the process. But it's easier the second time around. We're having a lot of fun. This thing is just delightful.

Marvin Cash (44:13-44:25): That's fantastic. And, you know, I always ask my guests, too, about any recent fishing trips that you want to share with us. Because, you know, we do all this other stuff, and you want to make sure you don't get away from why we got into the sport in the first place, which was to actually go fishing.

Jason Randall (44:27-46:28): Yeah. And sometimes you kind of do lose track of that, you know. But we got a chance to have our whole family together, both my wife, Joe, and I, and both kids and their husbands or wives, and even my nephew and best friend went up. And we spent a week on the Alagnak River in Alaska.

And to be able to pursue your outdoor passions is tremendous. But to be able to share those outdoor passions with those you love the most is remarkable. It's really a gift. We were able to go up and fish with a very long-time friend and guide. Jamie Klaus is one of the main guides up there at the lodge. We spent a week up with him, who you know very well over many, many years of fishing together.

The weather was rotten. It rained at least part of every day. But the fishing made up for it. We were there for the sockeye run. And to watch my son-in-law's really his very first big fishing trip. He's been married to my daughter for a couple of years now. But to really see him come alive as an angler, spending that time up there, the first few casts were very tentative. And by the end of the trip, man, he was great. And just loving it.

And same thing with my daughter-in-law. And just to watch them play, you know, 10-pound sockeyes or chum salmon, and it was marvelous. We caught a few kings, but we came together every night and, you know, had dinner together and played cribbage and, you know, had a couple of cold beers or scotch, something like that in the evening. And it is a memory of a lifetime.

Marvin Cash (46:29-46:32): Yeah, no, I enjoy fishing with my boys, too. It's just a lot of fun.

Jason Randall (46:33-46:34): How old are your sons?

Marvin Cash (46:34-46:37): So my oldest is 16, and my youngest is 10.

Jason Randall (46:38-46:41): Oh, that's wonderful. They're probably at an age where it's just delightful.

Marvin Cash (46:41-46:53): Yeah, it's fun. And, you know, my 16-year-old is very, very focused when he goes, and my 10-year-old is more like a 10-year-old. I think you met him last year at Bo's Show. And he'll be back.

Jason Randall (46:53-46:58): I remember him. He is a very, very enthusiastic young man.

Marvin Cash (46:58-47:02): Yeah, he is. And, you know, he's got his TFO visor, so he's excited.

Jason Randall (47:02-47:07): I remember that. Yeah. He was kind of adopted by the TFO folks, I think.

Marvin Cash (47:07-47:12): So he's looking forward, and he'll be with me next year, with this coming year. Oh, that's excellent.

Jason Randall (47:12-47:50): But, you know, the time that you spend at that age with your children in the outdoor sports, you know, angling or whatever it might be, that's an investment. Because that's when they really want to spend time and learn from you. And then the time that they spend at my point in life where my kids are all grown up, that is the dividend. That's the return on that investment. Because now, because we did spend that time, they do have an appreciation of the outdoors and the love for those things. They want to spend time with me. And you don't get one without the other.

Marvin Cash (47:50-48:08): Yeah, no, it's been a lot of fun. And it's actually really as I kind of look back, I fished as a kid, but I guess probably, you know, right before my oldest son was born was sitting there. First of all, I was working too hard and I needed to fix that. So I started buying shotguns and fly rods.

Jason Randall (48:10-48:13): That's a disease. It is a disease.

Marvin Cash (48:14-48:39): But then I also, to your point, I was like, you know, I want to, you know, something I enjoyed as a kid. I want to share it with my kids, but also to be able to compete with video games and why soccer. And there's nothing wrong with video games. I love those too. But, you know, I wanted to have something to do with them. So it's been a lot of fun. You know, and I know you're working on a new rod for TFO. Have you got any book projects in the pipeline or are you kind of taking a little bit of a breather?

Jason Randall (48:40-50:47): I'm on a timeout right now. So it is kind of a self-imposed timeout, and maybe some of that comes from my wife as well. But, you know, I'm taking a break. I have, you know, I've kind of not looked for a new commitment right now, either in the magazine field. I've been on kind of a sabbatical from my magazine articles and then also as far as book projects go as well, because they really do take so much time and focus and energy.

And I'm very blessed to have my wife as an angler, and she's also a phenomenal photographer. And she put out most of the photos, I won't say all of them, because some of them were others. But the cover shot, and I think almost 200 photos in the most recent book, of Nymph Masters are hers. And it's kind of a group effort.

And so I think this year I haven't had those big projects other than developing the new stealth rod for TFO. And it's just been fun. And some of my very good angling friends have had huge book projects, George Daniel and Landon Mayer and Ed Engel have all been under deadline and under the gun and some of the trips that we've planned together to go and fish. I was out in Colorado fishing, and just seeing them under those deadlines and facing those types of commitments. They say, well, I can only fish this day, and then I've got to do this.

And I think a lot of times, oftentimes, we don't appreciate how much time goes into that, how much investment from the authors goes into those books. I'm probably going to have another one. I'm probably going to suggest an idea to Jay Nichols at Stackpole in the future, but I think it might be another year off.

Marvin Cash (50:47-51:00): So they'll get to fish some, and I'm sure you're getting primed for the show season. And so we know you're going to be at Bo Beasley shows and at the Furimsky shows. Where else can people find you this winter and during the show season?

Jason Randall (51:01-52:29): I'll probably do – I do a lot of local clubs. I do a lot in the Midwest. But if they've got a one-day event or something like that, I do a lot of – I try to support our sport in every way I can. And I do love that interaction. I love to share the information. I love to be able to present some of these concepts and ideas.

So I do a lot of smaller events and clubs as well. I do TU chapters, and if I'm in the area and I'm going to be there already, I'll try to, if there's an opportunity like that, I'll try to be able to support that for those clubs because I'm a life member of TU as well, and I think that's the work that is done on a local chapter level and local angling clubs is huge in our sport.

I think there's so many benefits, you know, large scale and just, you know, and camaraderie and friendships on a smaller scale basis. But I usually do probably around, you know, 20 to 25 appearances a year. Most of those are at larger national shows and things. But people can find me on my website as well, and it usually keeps track of me. And if there's a club or a show and someone asks me to do it, I try to make that work for them.

Marvin Cash (52:29-52:31): And what's your website?

Jason Randall (52:33-53:20): The website is just www.jrflyfishing.com. And it's got my contact information in there. It's got an email address there. And I do welcome questions and discussions. And if anybody needs to reach me, they can certainly reach me through that as well. Or through social media. I'm on Instagram and I'm on Facebook and all those things.

And I love to see fish pictures. And one of the things I love to see is people that I've worked with or had discussions or taught before. And seeing fish pictures from them and those types of things. And I just love seeing other people enjoy our sport so much.

Marvin Cash (53:20-53:25): That's fantastic. Well, I really appreciate you spending some time with me this evening, Jason. I've had a lot of fun.

Jason Randall (53:26-53:46): Oh, it's been my pleasure, Marvin. I really appreciate getting to know you and seeing a little bit of your family and sharing your passion as well. And I thank you for what you're doing in our sport. And the opportunity to share this information, I think, is so beneficial. And thanks to you for doing that.

Marvin Cash (53:46-54:17): Well, thank you so much, Jason. And folks, our next episode will be out on December 7th, and that will be with another Midwesterner, Matt Supinski. Thank you all for listening tonight, and I would love it if you'd leave me a review in iTunes. And you can find this podcast pretty much everywhere that you can find a podcast on the Internet. And if you don't want to have to worry about checking a podcatcher, if you go to our website and subscribe to our newsletter every Saturday, you'll get an email with all of our podcast episodes and all of our new blog posts. Thanks everyone. Tight lines and good night. Good night Jason.

Jason Randall (54:17-54:19): Good night. Thank you so much.