S1, Ep 83: Landon Mayer Returns to Talk Tactics

**Marvin Cash (00:04):** Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly, and I'm really excited to bring Landon Mayer back on the podcast. Landon was with us earlier this year and we just didn't have a chance to cover everything in as much detail as I would have liked. So Landon graciously agreed to come back on the podcast. He updates us on the fishing season out in Colorado this year and also tells us what folks can expect in the late fall and early winter fishing in Colorado. And then we move on to really dig deep into tactics that Landon uses on his home waters that we can all use on our home waters to become better anglers. If you like the podcast, I'd really appreciate it if you give us a review and a rating in the podcatcher of your choice. And if you haven't had a chance yet, it would be really great if you would check out our Android and iPhone apps. All you have to do is search The Articulate Fly in the app store of your choice and download the app. Coming soon, we'll be pushing content that's exclusive to the app, so you certainly don't want to miss out. And before we move on to our interview, I want to encourage everyone to support the Double Hall for Dorian relief effort. There's currently an online auction that will close on November 15th. All you have to do is go to AFFTA's homepage at www.affta.org, that's A-F-F-T-A.org, and click on the link at the top of the page, or you can visit the link that I'll put in this episode's show notes. Even if you aren't interested in bidding on any of the items, you can make a monetary donation to this worthy cause. Now on to the interview. Well, Landon, welcome back to The Articulate Fly.

**Landon Mayer (01:36):** Thank you very much, Marvin. Pleasure to be back on the show and look forward to covering sight-fishing and trout hunting.

**Marvin Cash (01:42):** No, it's going to be great. And we were fortunate enough to be able to spend some time together last week in Denver at IFTD. What was the favorite part of the show for you?

**Landon Mayer (01:52):** It was great. I think for myself, just seeing it back in Denver was the highlight. I know a lot of individuals were wanting to go to the show years before and raved about it. But being in July and in Florida, it's hard for a lot of the trout anglers and outfitters to break away. So having that flavor back and that energy in Denver and just seeing so many happy, smiling faces. And it's really nice to be able to connect before the winter months and show season. And also on top of that, being able to get on the water with those that are traveling in for the show that normally aren't around. So that was really the highlight just seeing it back in Denver.

**Marvin Cash (02:26):** Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I'm a true southerner, but I tell you, it's tough to think about going to Orlando in July. It's a little hot.

**Landon Mayer (02:34):** Yeah, exactly hot. And you're thinking about trout and the money lost or money gained. I mean, it all works out in the end. But I think that cooling trend, a lot of people were very satisfied with that.

**Marvin Cash (02:45):** Yeah, and we got lucky. We got some great weather and everybody that left on Friday or Saturday got out before it got too cold.

**Landon Mayer (02:53):** Unbelievable, it was like the perfect schedule. Now we're looking at 32 degrees with a couple snowstorms and wind howling up to 30 miles an hour. It was very pleasant for the show.

**Marvin Cash (03:04):** Absolutely. Well, last time you were with us it was probably an early spring and we really hadn't had much of a fishing season to speak of. How's your season been so far out in Colorado?

**Landon Mayer (03:15):** It was awesome. I tell you Marvin, the one unique thing about this year was how many extremes we had to deal with from one of the largest snow packs that has ever been seen in the state of Colorado, almost averaging 400% above the average mark throughout the state, and then dealing with drastic lows three weeks ago where runoff completely over with some flows and river systems dropping as low as four CFS or 10 CFS. So we went from the high all the way down to the low. But I would have to say in between one of the most productive years I've seen just because with all that new water and the entrance of cold water starting early in winter going through spring summer into the fall it just leans towards more bug activity trout activity and everybody's a winner in that scenario. So it was a wonderful year. And going into winter here I'm looking forward to the low mid-season with some technical trout fishing. And for folks that aren't familiar with that what does Colorado fishing look like in late fall early winter?

**Marvin Cash (04:15):** That's a great question.

**Landon Mayer (04:21):** What it looks like primarily is low water extremely clear a lot of stealth and to be honest many rigs not going stronger than 6x for your leader and your tippet and what you're looking for is the warmest part of the day just to get those fish actively feeding and it becomes an amazing sight-fishing opportunity which we'll discuss on the phone together tonight and it really is just magical time fewer crowds battling the elements trying to play a storm tracker in the sense where you're looking to see when that weather's going to break and give you that warming trend and I just enjoy it. It's really a chance to get out there and just really appreciate the fishery for what it is and most importantly make you appreciate every fish you land.

**Marvin Cash (05:04):** Absolutely. And is it one of those things where it's hard for people to kind of book ahead and travel out because it's kind of one of those situations where you're like, oh, Friday looks really good. Let's go fish on Friday. And so it's really kind of a local client game, or can you still kind of plan to come fish with you during this part of the year?

**Landon Mayer (05:23):** That's a great question. Actually, a question that's brought up between us, myself and Pat Dorsey and others that do this full-time on the South Platte River. It really is what we typically do is local clientele can make the adjustment within a day or two. But even if you are traveling in from out of state, I would suggest doing three-day trips where within the three days you'll get a window or a break. And the other days, while it's still challenging, we do have opportunities with low elevation like Pueblo and the Arkansas River, which is almost 3,000 feet less than where we are here. And South Park, which is almost 9,000 feet. And that supplies you more warmth, more opportunities. And we also have a couple of canyons, being 11-mile canyon and Cheesman Canyon. So I'd say it's a mix and a blend of both, primarily local, but don't be afraid to travel in from out of state because it can be rewarding when you're out on powder days.

**Marvin Cash (06:15):** Got it. And obviously kind of the genesis for us getting together again on the podcast is you have kind of doubled down on sight-fishing again, and you just released a new edition of Sight Fishing for Trout. What made you know that it was time to bring out a new edition of the book?

**Landon Mayer (06:32):** Another great question. And thanks for bringing that up, Marvin. And for myself, it was just the collection of additional tips, evolving information and tactics, and just knowing that there was other opportunities in addition to the rivers. I think one of the sections in the book I enjoyed writing the most, in addition to other tips in sight-fishing rivers, was adding the stillwater section. So when all those compiled over 10 years and I looked at the paper and there's over 8,000 words and collected nearly 50 photographs, I decided, hey, I think it's time. And it really is an opportunity just to advance what we're learning or what I learned with clients or give back to clients daily. And just knowing that a 10-year span, a decade, that there's so much more great information. And it's amazing, too, how much this sport has evolved from techniques and tactics to gear to fluorocarbon, monofilament, rigging. There's so many ways that you can really be effective as an angler now, even compared to 10 years ago. Source of information. I think the biggest key there, too, Marvin, is what you're doing with opportunities to listen to podcasts, to learn videos online. Sky's the limit. So I felt all that coming together. And then to really make it a whole package, one of my friends and mentors from my starting days guiding at Colorado Fishing Adventures was the great Ed Engle, who I think is one of the best riders in our sport, a wonderful human being, great teacher. And having him write the forward like John Randolph did for the first edition was really nice and a special moment. So I really appreciate it. Thank Ed for that.

**Marvin Cash (08:09):** Well, that's great. That sounds like quite a project. It sounds like you added a stillwater section and it literally sounds like you updated the entire original manuscript.

**Landon Mayer (08:19):** We did, yeah. We kind of dove in. I'd say, honestly, Marvin, one of the most challenging moments as an angler turned into a writer for me was sitting down. When you don't need information to be added because the project was very tight. Jay Nichols, good friend of mine with Headwater Books, he's the one really behind this whole project and helped me learn how to make this book whole and make it really precise with all the information that needed to be there. And trying to find spots where there were holes was a challenge. So I think adding it beforehand just by notes and putting tips down daily coming back from trips, and then you can go back in the manuscript and just cover your ground that way really made it easier. And I think this adds more value and usable life to each one of the pages.

**Marvin Cash (09:09):** That's really neat. And if we kind of step back from that, how did sight-fishing become such an important part of your angling strategy?

**Landon Mayer (09:19):** Another awesome question. So I remember it, and I'll never forget this, but I literally remember it like it was yesterday. It was my third year guiding. And I remember showing up to the South Platte River. It was on the Dream Stream. And we had done a group trip that day of six anglers, two anglers per guide. And as I'm walking down the river, I believe it was late June, I started, we'd hook into a few fish, lose them, hook into a few fish, lose them. And then all of a sudden, fish started erupting around us. And it was dry fly, crazy, just caddis going off. It was just an awesome experience with clients. And then out of the blue, boom, it just stopped. And the wind picked up, the hatch was gone. And I thought, man, there's no way that these fish are just going to stop abruptly from feeding with how intense the activity was. And then after drowning a dry fly by mistake where my client let it swing and I watched this fish pop up out of the run and just hammer it. From that moment on, I just spent the rest of the afternoon looking for fish and then swinging in front of them. And that forever changed my thought process and point of view where I matched the hatch, I read the water, fish productive runs. But now, before I leave any zone, I sight fish the productive water because I know there could be fish that you're missing or ways to feed fish flies that you don't conventionally always think of.

**Marvin Cash (10:42):** Got it. And most anglers, when you talk about sight-fishing, they think about fishing dry fly. But I know you've written about and we'll talk later about your DVD. You've thought a lot about sight-fishing on the nymph and the streamer. How do anglers spot fish that are going to be receptive to taking a nymph or a streamer?

**Landon Mayer (11:06):** The biggest way to do that is just reading the fish's behavior, just knowing that the fish is feeding, whether it's the white of the mouth, erratic movements in the water, and seeing them consume the natural food supply. One of the things I always preach to anglers on the water, because I thoroughly believe in this, is just giving yourself an ample amount of time to investigate what's in front of you. We all get so excited, and I'm always guilty of this when I go out as well, where we just charge the water. Everything's rigged up beforehand, pull the rods out of the river quiver, get down there, and just, boom, start hitting fish. But if you take a step back, and it's maybe one of the ways in maturing as an angler over the years as well, just allow things in front of you to evolve and just see how the fish is feeding. Pretty much most of the time, the trout will tell you how they want the flies to be drifted, how they want the presentation, and they show you how they're actively feeding.

**Marvin Cash (12:00):** Got it. And I kind of can think about that for nymph, right? You'll either see the bite of the mouth or you'll see them moving back and forth or moving up and down in the water column. What does it look like though for the streamer bite? Because I guess I've never really thought about seeing a trout actively taking streamer. I've always thought of that as more of a searching activity for big fish.

**Landon Mayer (12:25):** Right, right. And it is, there's times to search and there's times where you don't see. And that really is also a part of just fishing in a hole. But when it comes to streamer and feeding trout, there's been so many different unique scenarios that I've experienced from when I was guiding in Alaska and you were trying to get a reaction from the rainbows that were sitting below and behind the salmon. Or being up on the South Holston River with Blane and tossing his Game Changer and trying to see how the fish reacted and being able to feed the trout right at the boat. All those different scenarios. What I've learned in dealing with streamer is you have to just base it on the how aggressive the trout is. Is the fish pretty lethargic? Is a fish rushing in to take the fly? And that then starts telling you you should slow down your retrieve, speed up your retrieve. All that again is just watching their behavior. But that starts with searching for streamer. So sometimes the trout you can throw a streamer the fish doesn't move or react and that honestly could be 30 even 40 percent of the time. And then when you throw a streamer sometimes out of the blue wham that fish is willing to come over and almost feels like it's ready to walk on the bank to grab the streamer. And then you know you need to learn how to feed the fish fast, slow, long, short. And I think that's really the progression of sight-fishing with streamer.

**Marvin Cash (13:48):** Got it. And kind of in your fishing day or over a season maybe, what proportion of your time do you spend sight-fishing versus searching for fish?

**Landon Mayer (13:58):** Yeah, that's a great question too. What I find myself challenged with is the struggle between maybe I'm sight-fishing too much, maybe I should be reading the water more. And I deal with that battle constantly. It's daily for me. But I would honestly say that I'm sighting fish probably 60% of the time, and I'm reading water and fishing a productive water about 40% of the time. You can do more of both, in my opinion. I think sometimes we just get locked into wanting to see, and we miss out on the chance to really just fish water for what it is and for what it's showing us without the trout being present. And then also there's times where weather comes into play. And there's different scenarios for that, but I would say 60-40. And it really is on what you enjoy more, or most importantly, what makes you a better angler from learning from the techniques at hand.

**Marvin Cash (14:49):** Got it. So it's really not a function of your 60-40's, not because of where you fish. It's almost kind of like a personal preference for how you like to fish.

**Landon Mayer (14:56):** Yes, exactly, exactly. And there are times where you can't see fish and you have to read water. And there's times where you can't read water because it's a slick spring creek and you have to sight fish. So those play a part in whatever fishery you're at at the time. But I think if you really divide the reading water and the sight-fishing and just really hone your skills and keep those really sharp intact, then that's going to allow you more opportunities no matter what waters you encounter.

**Marvin Cash (15:25):** Got it. And to help our listeners, I thought it would be really neat if you could talk about how you fish certain types of water, like freestone, tailwater, stillwater, where you are, so that our listeners could say, oh, well, the piece of water that's like, I don't know, the Arkansas River or like the South Platte River is this piece of water at home. But I thought that would be something that'd be really helpful if you could kind of give us some examples that people could kind of use as kind of outlines to apply to their home waters.

**Landon Mayer (15:53):** Yeah, no, that's great. I'd be happy to do that. And I thought about that after you and I had a chance to get together at the show. And there's three examples. And I think the first one, we can start with freestones. What freestones to me are very unique fisheries because these are areas, locations within a state that have free flowing water, not interrupted by a dam. And that being said, it's also very temperamental as a fishery is how I think of freestones. So tailwater can be saved any day, any week, because there's a dam above controlling the flow. But Mother Nature, whatever she decides for weather, all of a sudden on a freestone, if it rains the night before, the next day it's chocolate milk. And we're all at the whim of Mother Nature and the weather and the elements at hand. So that being said, for freestones, I'm a huge fan for sight-fishing and reading water to just concentrate on the edges. Concentrate on the edges when the water is high, but also concentrate on the edges when the water is low. And some of the things I like to do in the spring is when the water is low before runoff, knowing that some of the largest trout you can encounter in freestones can literally be on the edge around rock clustered edges, 10 to 20 inches of riffled water. It can be held up right there with complete cover above and actively feeding. Or then let's say you start fishing and all of a sudden, boom, runoff hits. And then the fish are forced to the edge. And then the numbers just simply increase. The challenge in sight-fishing and hunting trout on freestones that I would encourage anglers to do is just constantly change and adapt how you present your flies. And a lot of that starts with depth control, dry dropper, really light nymph rig, streamer on the edge with a deer hair head. All these are ways that you can approach it, but just never give up on the edges and just know that even if it's skinny and clear or it's high and muddy, fish on freestones really do find refuge there. So that's the starting point or my tip on freestones and really the way that I evaluate it in my head. That's the first locations I always go to.

**Marvin Cash (18:04):** Got it. And how does that approach shift when you go to the tailwater?

**Landon Mayer (18:09):** Yeah, so great. Going from the tailwater from the freestone, and just as an example where I guide full time in what I call my office in South Park, Colorado, and the reason I thought that would be a great idea for us to mention that tonight is that within 60 miles, we have three stillwaters, we have two tailwaters, and we have headwaters, and then the freestone waterway with the Arkansas River, and this is all within an hour and a half. So on any given day, I could be on a freestone, I could be on a tailwater, on a stillwater. And really having that diversity makes you a better angler because the more well-traveled you are, the more that you can adapt and adjust to your environment. So if we switch from freestones and then we go to tailwaters, my advice on tailwaters is to section the river up and break it into its own smaller rivers. So an example of that would be, let's say you have three bends, and imagine this is all coming down below a reservoir. And in those three bends, you have one, let's say, a rock weir. Then let's say you have a cluster of rocks, a log sticking out from the edge, and then a long riffled run going into a deep pocket. If you take each one of those locations and literally dissect square foot by square foot where trout could hold, you could spend, let's say, three to four hours just fishing those zones on the tailwater because we know that it's highly oxygenated water. It's typically cooler if it's a bottom release. And because it's controlled flows and typically smaller flies than a freestone because of the cooling effect, we know that it's very technical and the fish can live in a very small comfort zone because they don't have to deal with runoff pushing them out. So my tip there on tailwaters is for sure just break it down, make it smaller rivers, and just dissect everything. Don't always count on a deep run to be what's holding fish that you can literally hold anywhere.

**Marvin Cash (20:07):** Got it. And then obviously you've got stillwater. So that probably maybe comes back a little bit to freestones, right? Because you're probably got to fish the edges unless you're in a boat.

**Landon Mayer (20:16):** You do, you do. And that's, it's a great question. You do have edges play a part in a boat. It's going to be a different scenario. The one thing I've always learned from stillwaters is that no matter what's happening, whether it's calm or it's windy as all get out, which South Park, Colorado is known for its share of wind, you're always going to be dealing with color change. And even if you're colorblind, different shades of water. So drop lines typically will go from tan to dark blue or green. If the wind picks up and all of a sudden the waves are crashing into the shore, all that dirty water, all that soot that's being kicked up is going to be pushed out. These are all color changes that play a part. And let's say you're out in a boat in the middle of the reservoir. You're looking at weed patches, which typically are dark. And then you want to find those openings around or in the patches where trout can cruise around and feed. And that's all going to be based on the color change. So color change, whether you're looking at a Google map, whether you're looking at a map by hand, or whether you're even looking at the atlas where you're trying to determine how big is this fishery, where's the water coming in, where's the inlet, where's the outflow, all that plays a part. But one thing that will never change is different shades for colorblind. For those who can see color, it's always about that color change, which gives you drop lines and feeding locations for trout.

**Marvin Cash (21:38):** Got it. Yeah, that's a really helpful tip. And when you can't sight fish, do you use the same tactics and you fish to likely lies or do you kind of completely change your game up?

**Landon Mayer (21:50):** Yeah, great question. Absolutely. I fish the likely lies in areas where there is change, where for stillwaters, it's a lot based on how the fish feel comfortable, where they feel safe. So if the fish can cruise in seven feet of water where it's dark blue and then transition by simply swimming to the left or the right two or three feet and all of a sudden is on a feeding flat that's only two feet deep, they know they can go in there and feed and then if need be come back for safety to the deep run. So it all really does work out in the end. But it's really neat, though, to see that happening because then it allows you to learn where the fish hold, why they hold there, and then helps you advance as an angler.

**Marvin Cash (22:30):** Got it. And not only did you update Sight Fishing for Trout, but you also recently released Mastering the Short Game, which is, I guess, a Blu-ray DVD as well as it's on Vimeo for download. I know from talking to you, it took three years to produce, and it's a little over an hour of video. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the production process?

**Landon Mayer (22:52):** Yeah that was thanks for bringing that up. What a great project and I do sleep at night a little bit just so everybody knows. It's like all these projects hit at once and this was a labor of love for myself and Jay Nichols where it all started three, I'd say four years ago. We decided hey there needs to be an instructional video for what we're doing and these projects we're coming out with and one of the goals for this video was to make it action-packed, keep your attention, supply a great amount of information with minimal flux. So we didn't want it, as you mentioned before, Marvin, like a three-minute fight scene. We really wanted the editing to be precise, the rigs to be very clear, the graphics, high resolution. And it started as a project in Colorado. And then we realized after putting all the techniques together and sitting down and going over 100 hours of footage, we thought, man, we really need to add just to show anglers. This is what happens on the West Coast. So we were fortunate enough to go out and fish and hooked up with George Daniel and fish some water out there and decided to do some filming in Pennsylvania where Jay's from. So we went out and filmed on Fishing Creek in Pennsylvania. We decided that was also great input and information and kind of built a little bit more energy and thoughts to, okay, if we can do a domestic, why not international? So then we decided to take all of the camera equipment, which was quite the chore going to South America. But we ended up going with Andes Drifters. If you haven't experienced South America, these guys in Argentina are just incredible. Small spring creeks, sight-fishing, dry fly, nymph, streamer, amazing people. And we went out and, again, Andes Drifters supplied us the opportunity to be there for a week. So we filmed, gathered that information. And then lastly, getting to spend time with somebody who is a predator hunting predators, playing chocolate on the South Holston River. Those were the four locations that made this video whole. And after compiling all that together, it's dry fly, nymph, and streamer, techniques and strategies, and then rigging and core fly selections. And that's all included within 61 minutes. And I really hope everybody enjoys it. It really was a labor of love. But seeing it all come together, it was myself, Jay Nichols, Nate. There's so many other people that did the editing on this project too, which I believe was close to 400 hours. So it's just so much time involved. And it happened to be when it was completed, it was around the same time with Sight Fishing for Trout. So it made a big difference all the way around.

**Marvin Cash (25:28):** Got it. And we were talking before we started the interview about how tight it is. I mean, so you cover dry fly, nymph, and streamer in 61 minutes, and you talked kind of about the progression that you use for each of those types of fishing. How did you come up with the idea for the format?

**Landon Mayer (25:47):** Yeah, that's a great question as well. That was put together based on, a little bit of it was based on the sight-fishing book. Jay Nichols, the publisher and editor of Headwater Books and acquisition editor for Stackpole Books, he has such a great mind and is really responsible for so many great books in our industry that we just put the outline together and just followed the outline. And the challenge with video is this. You can make a video and the video can be complete with information and really supply anglers great opportunities to learn. The challenge in video is to capture the start all the way to the finish. So you can imagine in dealing with mastering the shore game and sight-fishing, we were challenged with obstacles like how do we get a streamer bite on video to where you can see this clear as day, display the technique when it's 20 feet or less, and do that all within a timeframe of an eight-hour day or let's say we had three or four days to shoot. It's so difficult to have that whole sequence come together. And that really is one of the reasons the project took a little bit longer is that we wanted to make sure for dry fly, nymph, and streamer that you see the takes, you see the cast, the presentation, the hook set, the fight, the land, all of that's combined. And in some of the scenarios and some of the footage, we even have fish come over, eight-pound rainbows coming to eat streamer on public water, no joke, five feet from where you're standing. So that all coming together was a challenge, but so much fun. And when we captured it, man, it's one of the best feelings on earth because then every viewer is truly going to learn what excitement is there beyond the dry fly when it comes to hunting trout.

**Marvin Cash (27:33):** Yeah, that's really neat. And I thought, too, you mentioned this a little bit earlier, the video dovetails really well with Sight Fishing for Trout in terms of kind of a great resource for kind of helping people visually interpret the words in the book. Did you guys structure the DVD to be that strong a complement, or did it just happen?

**Landon Mayer (27:56):** No, we did. And it's a great point to bring up because we even thought about and juggled with, should we include the video with the book? But we thought you would get more out of those being separate identities because you can use the visual reference, which I believe a lot of anglers, not all, but there's a good majority of anglers after guiding over 20 years. I've learned that so many of us are visual learners and hands-on. And then what happens is being hands-on and learning the basics, so many of us then really dive into the details. And so now in the new generation of anglers, younger anglers in specific, a lot of these individuals learn electronically online. And then for some of the older gentlemen or women that are in the sport that are used to books and pages, they learn from text and words and pages. So that's why we wanted to make sure both were available because it really does allow them both to complement one another.

**Marvin Cash (28:51):** Yeah, no, I thought they worked incredibly well together. And one of the things that you noted in the Mastering the Short Game was that 80% of trout are caught within 20 feet or less. Yeah, so true. But most anglers I know fish much farther out. And so why do you think most anglers make it more difficult for themselves than they need to?

**Landon Mayer (29:15):** Well, I think it's a little bit of both. I think some anglers can challenge themselves until they learn how much closer they can get to a fish. And I think that some anglers have to fish. I think that there's also that 20% of scenarios where you don't have a choice but to go longer. And that being said, you can evaluate where you present from or how you present the fly. And those situations like the Henry's Fork or some of these locations where you have to feed a dry fly in a 50-foot drift or 40-foot drift, that really does play a part in our sport and allow you to become more tactical as an angler. But so many times what I've learned over the years in travels is that some scenarios are set up to where it's easy just to cast once you see the fish. But just as we discussed before, you take a step back and then you evaluate and then give yourself options. It's not uncommon that you quickly realize, oh, wow, I can actually drift from that point of view and from that angle and get so close to the fish that I can literally watch it feed. And that really is part of the 80% of the fish are caught within 20 feet or less because so many fish are around structure, against the bank, or feeding close to the surface, or they're hidden, most importantly, hiding themselves to where they can't always see around where they're holding. So that's where we can sneak in and kind of blend with the surroundings. But I think that's really the no going towards that 80% and 20-foot distance.

**Marvin Cash (30:47):** Got it. And so for an angler who wants to try to work on his short game, obviously you mentioned the Henry's Fork, which is super technical. And I think most people that fly fish a lot understand that 50, 60 foot drift from upstream. But as an average angler saying, I want to try this out, what would be some easy things you could put in the 20% bucket so they don't get frustrated trying to work on their short game?

**Landon Mayer (31:13):** Yeah. The biggest thing is immediately just know you're going to have to adjust your cast. Because the way that fly rods are developed in design, matching up and marrying with a fly line, is that conventionally the fly line, the weight of the line, the grain of the line, is what loads, bends, or flexes the graphite, flexes the glass, the bamboo. That's what stores energy and then it's released. And the more line you have out, the more flex, the more power in the release, and the more energy. When you're sight-fishing and you're within 20 feet or less and you're dealing with a 12-foot leader, you literally may not even have enough heavy line to be considered a head that can bend, flex, or load the rod. Or in a Euro situation or locations where you're set up and you're literally just casting your leader, there is no flex. So it's more of techniques of learning how to move your body, make adjustments, and most importantly, learning the load. And that's why in the video and in the book for the video, we walk through it step by step. In the book, there's sequence shots in series up to 12 where it shows step by step by step, all of the casting motion. So you know that the movement of the body is what's loading the rod and loading the leader and the flies, not the weight of the fly line.

**Marvin Cash (32:32):** Got it. Yeah. And it was interesting watching the video because I would see certain things that I've seen fishing with George Daniel, like the way he casts. And so it's interesting to see kind of adapting to not having as much mass. So you either have to overline or you have to use a softer tip rod or come up with a trick to make that work for you.

**Landon Mayer (32:52):** Exactly, exactly. And it is a challenge. But, again, that's what keeps us a student. And learning to really utilize a 10-foot rod when there's no fly line or minimal line out of the tip, I mean, that is really the saving grace. So I just, I encourage anglers to do that. I mean, I do that so many times where even if you're not productively fishing or the fishing slows down and let's face it, we're all there and any time during the day, fishing can shut off. But it doesn't mean that you have to stop practicing your techniques. I mean, you can pick targets in the water, practice casting those targets and just really learn how to become one with your tools and equipment to make you more effective.

**Marvin Cash (33:30):** No, that's really great advice. And one thing I thought was interesting too, is that you have kind of a reverse progression when you nymph. So you suggest fishing top to bottom, which most nymph anglers I know are trying to get to the bottom as quickly as possible. Right. You want to say a little bit about that?

**Landon Mayer (33:51):** Sure. Yeah. So for myself and some of my mentors, Ed Engle and another great mentor of mine and a gentleman that's been so kind and gracious over the years is John Barr. And John Barr is a great angler. And one of the techniques that he developed was a hopper, copper, dropper. And just watching this over time and fishing with JB in so many locations, knowing that trout and what I've built confidence and understanding is that it's, in my opinion, more natural for a trout to lift and feed. So I would rather start high in the column and then work my way down to the fish, knowing that whether it's an emergence of a hatch, aggression coming up towards a larger dry fly, I'm working my way down to the fish to find out what feeding level the trout is on. And one of the big factors I deal with in my home waters is that anglers who use anchor rigs or flies too deep too early, if they go into the run and that fish does not take on the first drift, there's a couple things that can happen, whether it be snagging the fish, lining, or most importantly, spooking the fish. And a lot of our trout in these technical tailwaters, when they're spooked, it's not as if they're going to stop feeding all day. But for the angler coming up after them who may not realize these fish were already cast to, it takes away from your experience. But I also think it takes away from the opportunity to learn, would that fish be willing to lift or did that fish want it right in its face? And I think working down from the top allows you to understand which one of those the fish prefers. May prefer lifting and may prefer that fly just literally drifting right in front of his nose, open the gills in the mouth and then suck the fly in. So I think that's part of my game and why I enjoy doing that. And it just adds to more excitement too. It's crazy how many fish, I mean, I mean this with all truth and honesty, how many fish will lift up from six feet deep in a run on the bottom and come up and crash on the surface when there's no hatch, no dry fly activity at all. Just amazing how much of that aggressive nature will come into play and they'll come up and boom hit the dry fly. Those are my fun experiences.

**Marvin Cash (36:07):** Yeah. And one of the great things that's in the video too, is you really share the benefit of all your days on the water because you've got that chart that basically gives equivalencies for basically different beads and mending in terms of depth to really help those of us who can't be on the water as much as we would like, kind of shortcut that learning process.

**Landon Mayer (36:28):** Exactly. Yeah. And it's a tier system, just really understanding. I mean, a lot of what we do visually on the water is based off of time spent and just learning, but we also start to see things that are happening before they happen, if that makes sense. So you're visualizing how deep you need to be before you put the split shot on because you put so much split shot on or you've used so much putty over the years that that really is what allows you to control your depth on a regular basis. And you can do it almost in a split second. You immediately can look at water and say, okay, it's four feet deep. This is how much weight I need. And that really is part of just honing in the skills and just really time on the water and practicing.

**Marvin Cash (37:08):** Yeah. And it was interesting too, kind of shifting gears to the dry fly. One of the secrets that you shared was, we're generally coached to try to get the longest drag-free drift we can. And one of the points that you really drove home in the video was tilt the odds back in your favor and make the fish make a decision and get a good short drift.

**Landon Mayer (37:30):** Absolutely. Absolutely. And again, this goes back to the JB and all of our fun times in the water. It's getting me excited, actually, man. I'm pumped to go hit the water tomorrow. But the watching JB and things I learned from him is that I became confident in being able to fire the fly right above the fish. I mean, if you ask yourself that question, why would you want a 10-foot drift if you don't need it? If you don't need a drift to really mimic the imitation of a natural, if you could cast less line and make the fish do a fast or a cause for the fish to have a quick reaction where it's either fight or flight. You're either going to eat or you're not. And that can be done within a two-foot drift. Why not give yourself that opportunity? And I think in the long run, that allows you more chances at fish taking your fly because they don't want to pass up the meal. They're opportunistic by nature when they see a food supply. And as soon as it disappears, a lot of times that can trigger the fish to take. And even in many scenarios, trigger the fish to turn, follow the fly downstream, and then grab it actually moving away from when it was facing the current. That's how aggressive they can become.

**Marvin Cash (38:39):** Yeah, that's really interesting, too. And I mean, I've also had those situations where they backpedal and look, look, look, look, look. So I've gotten burned on that long drip thing before.

**Landon Mayer (38:48):** Yeah. And again, it's not, it's not all set in stone, but it's try it and you can just see, you'll know right away if that fish will react immediately to a short cast or if the fish needs a long cast. And you can determine that within two drips, one long, one short. And I typically start with the short.

**Marvin Cash (39:09):** Got it. And one of the great things you share in the, you shared in the book, but you shared in really good detail in the DVD are basically your setups. And your nymphing and dry fly leaders, they're not crazy long, but they're a little bit longer than what probably most anglers fish. And so I was wondering if you could share some suggestions about how to cast a 15-foot leader effectively, because I think most people are probably used to doing probably 9, 10, 11.

**Landon Mayer (39:40):** Right, right. Yeah, that's a great point you bring up because it is. I learned three years ago when I went with Andes Drifters to South America, I learned quickly how effective a long leader is if it's built correctly. And what I mean by that, when we showed up, there were fish eating caddis, there were fish eating larger dry fly. But the biggest challenge I found when I was there is that, no joke, sometimes I was casting the number eight dry fly with a 15-foot leader and 30-mile-an-hour winds. And there were many moments where I went, man, this is not going to happen. It's just too windy. But I was surprised in how, and the rigs will supply that detail, I was surprised how the formula going thick to thin, allowing the proper length to turn over the fly really is the secret. And in addition to that, you can load a rod effectively and collapse the cast to where the loop opens up at the very end on the forward casting stroke. So instead of always stopping high, there's many scenarios where with an abrupt stop on the forward cast, you would literally drop the tip or intentionally make the line almost collapse. And by doing that, you don't have to worry about tailing loops or the weight of the fly going all the way down to where it touches the fly line, causing tangles. And those were two big things I took away, but proper leaders, how they're built and just really separating thick to thin throughout the build. It plays a huge part in success with dry fly.

**Marvin Cash (41:15):** Yeah. And it was interesting too, on the dry fly leaders, I noticed that you like fluorocarbon on the business end. And I know there's sort of a mild Hatfields versus McCoy thing about whether you're, what the preference is. And I was just kind of curious, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer, but kind of how you got in the fluoro camp for your dry fly fishing at the very end.

**Landon Mayer (41:37):** Yeah, the biggest thing for me with the, becoming a huge believer in fluoro, and don't get it wrong, there are many scenarios where I can't, I do have to use mono. For me, a lot of that's based on the size of the diameter and the strength. So if I have a large dry fly and I really do need that buoyancy, I'm going to go mono. If I'm using 4, 3, or 2X, I'll go mono all the way. And that way I know that I'm helping out my rig and my presentation on the drift. But in technical waters, where I'm only doing, as we discussed a minute ago, a two-foot drift, I don't need monofilament to drift my flies 15 feet. I can use fluoro, get a proper drip. And even if my fly sinks, it's still out of the window of the trout seeing it because I've shortened everything up. I've made it very precise. And I think that's why I become a believer in fluoro. Monofilament and fluoro, fluoro helps you disguise while not reflecting light as well. But it still reflects light. It just gives you a little bit more of an upper hand. And I think this gives you a shot at that fish not detecting something unnatural. And a good friend of mine, Jason Randall, does a great presentation and has written many great books. And what Jason did is tested in a swimming pool what monofilament fluorocarbon looks like when you're on the bottom and when you're looking up. And it is a mind-blowing experience when you see that and realize quickly, oh, you can still see it. The advantage we have is the currents and the riffles and all these different disturbing movement sections of the river on the surface also help disguise the rig. But that kind of justifies why I like using fluoro.

**Marvin Cash (43:14):** Got it. And before we leave our discussion about Mastering the Short Game, I think we would, we wouldn't do it justice if we didn't say, even if you're not into the short game, you would benefit from the DVD because you share a lot of general tips from fighting fish, practicing your shots, how to put yourself in position. So, I mean, I thought there was a lot of stuff there that would make you a better angler, even if you want to just bought fish, bomb 50 and 60-foot casts.

**Landon Mayer (43:41):** Oh yeah, whether it's short, long, whether you're beginning or you've advanced your skills over the years you can consider yourself professional in this sport. It's the biggest thing in fly fishing that we can all do to help ourselves is remain a student because you always learn, you advance and become better. But the video is designed and developed for anglers of all skill levels, all age, all preferences. It's all there and absolutely you can benefit from any tip or trick along the way with dry fly, nymph, and streamer. And that was one of the things we went over many, many months is deciding what to put in there. It can't be too advanced. It can't be too minimal. It has to be kind of a blend of both, or you can have, like we did in the video, a lot of advanced tips and a lot of beginning tips. So that way it complements itself.

**Marvin Cash (44:28):** Got it. And obviously you've been on a tear in 2019. What projects are you working on for 2020?

**Landon Mayer (44:34):** That's a great question. A couple projects in the works. I'm working on some stuff on the vice right now. So that's the next one that's coming out. I'm excited about that. I've got some great invitations with Uncle Feather Merchants, the Mini Leach, the Mini Leach Jig. And there's a lot of information on how those came to be in design and development over the years. And I've got a trip coming up to Amazon. I leave on Thursday. It's my first jungle experience. So I'm going to do some words on that after the trip. And I'm super excited to go out with Nomadic Waters, Michael Williams, a good buddy of mine, Gary Bula is going to be hosting the trip. And he's a master with the rooster game in Baja. So it's just a blend of so many great people. And to really cap that trip off, David Cannon's coming out to do the photographs for Winston and Bauer and Scientific Anglers. So we're going to have all hands on deck and it should just be a great experience. And I'm looking forward to not having to throw 6x on Thursday or Friday and go to 50 pounds. I think that's a nice blend. And I can get revenge for all my light sets over the last eight months and really just lay wood on some of these big peacock bass. I'm excited for that. And, yeah, just some articles, some great events. My next event coming up is at Dally's up in Cotter, Arkansas, on the White River. I'm going to be doing an event with them and a trout hunting class and school and some tying clinics. And then the fly fishing show with Ben and Chuck Franski is coming up in the winter months and International Sports and Zexpo as well. So I'm just excited, man. It's an exciting season coming up in the winter, Marvin, because as you know, it gives us all a chance to get back, a chance to conversate, come up with ideas, tips, and tricks while we still fish, but getting ready for the new seasons ahead. So I'm excited for that.

**Marvin Cash (46:22):** Absolutely. And I'll drop a link to the event at Dally's in the show notes. And I know you mentioned all of Chuck and Ben's shows. Are you going to be at all of them or are you going to just be at some of them?

**Landon Mayer (46:33):** No, thanks for bringing it up. Not all of them. I wish I could, but our seasons here start so early and early March, we're already getting after it on some of our waterways. But I will be at the Denver Fly Fishing Show, New Jersey Fly Fishing Show, the Pleasanton, California Fly Fishing Show, and also the Atlanta Fly Fishing Show. So I'll be doing four shows for them in addition to some other separate clubs and events. And then I'll also be back for a couple days in Denver at the International Sportsman's Expo, which is two weeks after the fly fishing show. So I'll have two shows in Denver. But it's going to be great. And I love seeing everybody at these shows. And, yeah, they do a really fantastic job at the fly fishing shows and putting that together. I mean, it's a wealth of information you can gain anywhere within that three-day window.

**Marvin Cash (47:20):** Yeah, no, I'm looking forward to all that stuff. I mean, it was great being in Denver last week, seeing all my old friends making new ones. And we all tend to be show rats during the show season. So I'm sure we'll bump into each other again. Yeah. Where can folks find your books and your videos?

**Landon Mayer (47:41):** Oh, thanks. I appreciate you bringing that up. So the biggest trick on the video is this. If you go to my website, you can purchase a physical copy, which is LandonMareFlyFishing.com, a physical copy of the books and also the video. And you can do so as well online with Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and local fly shops. The local fly shops have opportunities to carry the projects, and you can pick some up there. If you want to download the video, the title of the video is Mastering the Short Game. The download link is mastertheshortgame.com. And if you go to mastertheshortgame.com, that will take you to a Vimeo page, and you can download the video in high definition. And the reason we did that is we have so many high-resolution graphics and really amazing setups with graphics throughout the video that if you do it in standard definition, it's blurry, and you take away from the experience. So now we have Blu-ray for the video side, which is the physical video, and then HD high definition on the download side with Vimeo. So LandAndMareFlyFishing.com, and that's the physical. And then you can download through MasterTheShortGame.com through Vimeo.

**Marvin Cash (48:56):** Yeah, and I'll drop the links to both of those in the show notes. And one of the good things about Vimeo is they make apps for the Roku and all kinds of smart TVs. So, yeah, you might be able to buy it on Vimeo and watch it on your flat screen. Before I let you hop. Absolutely. Yeah, before I let you hop tonight, why don't you let folks know where they can find you so they can book you and fish with you and find out what's going on. Yeah, you bet. Yeah, and also the best way to reach you because I know some guides like text, some people don't like voicemails.

**Landon Mayer (49:28):** So if you could share all that with us, that'd be great. No, thanks. I appreciate it. So my contacts now are, and it's crazy just how much social media game has grown, but it's my website, LandonMareFlyFishing.com. If you're interested in a trip, if you go to the contact page, you can send me a note, whether it be speaking engagements, guided trips, comments, just questions. That's really one of the best ways to do that. I'm also available on Facebook, LandonMareFlyFishing, Instagram, at LandonMareFlyFishing. And then as far as just contact about trips, just let me know through email. And that way you can put some words and put down, whether you like a certain season or what you're wanting to get out of the trip. Those are the three best ways to contact me. And just, yeah, don't hesitate. If I'm at a show and we run into each other on the water, please say hello. I really do appreciate everybody's support. And I always make mention to Marvin that none of what I'm doing or none of all of these projects put together, there's nobody I know that can do this individually. It's always a group of really good people that are responsible in addition to what we're trying to provide. So I'm thankful being able to do it, number one, but also really paying respects to the people over the years that have helped me out so much. And I'm trying to do the same. That's why I believe it's very important to give back. So I really appreciate you having me on the show again, my friend.

**Marvin Cash (50:49):** Oh, no, I appreciate you carving the time out, particularly since you're getting ready to head down to South America in a couple of days. You bet. Yeah, and it's been fun. I really appreciate you taking the time. And when your next treatise comes out, we'll have to have you back.

**Landon Mayer (51:04):** Yeah, let's do it again, man. And like you said, when you come up to Denver next year, we have to fish. When you come out for the show, we'll go up and we'll stock some of the tailwater scenarios. And then I look forward to seeing you at the fly fishing shows as well.

**Marvin Cash (51:16):** Absolutely. Well, listen, take care and have a great evening.

**Landon Mayer (51:19):** Thanks. I appreciate you. Take care buddy.

**Marvin Cash (51:23):** Well folks, I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Again if you enjoyed this episode I'd really appreciate it if you would give us a review on the podcatcher of your choice and please check out our apps and don't forget to support the double haul for Dorian relief effort. Thanks everybody, tight lines.