S1, Ep 87: A Snowy Day in Michigan with Derek DeYoung

Marvin Cash (00:04-01:33): Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly, and on this episode, I have the pleasure of interviewing Derek DeYoung. Derek and I talk about everything from his first art competition as a kid to his fascination with karaoke and everything in between. I think you're really going to enjoy it.

Before we move on to the interview, though, just a couple of housekeeping items. First of all, if you like the podcast, I'd really appreciate it if you tell a friend and leave a review in the podcatcher of your choice. And also, if you haven't done this yet, please check out our new mobile apps. We've got an app for the iPhone and we've got an app for Android phones. And all you have to do is search The Articulate Fly in the app store of your choice. It's free and it's the best way to stay in touch with what we're doing. And we're going to be pushing out content that's only available in the app very, very soon.

And before we move on to the interview, just want to give a shout out to this episode sponsor, our friends at Nor-vise. Theirs is faster and they produce the only vise that truly spins to see for yourself visit www.nor-vise.com or even better visit with them at the international fly tying symposium on November 23rd and 24th in Parsippany, New Jersey. From now until the end of November, Articulate Fly listeners can get 20% off their entire order by using the coupon code "the articulate fly" all one word all lowercase at checkout on the Nor-vise website. Now on to our interview.

Well, welcome to The Articulate

Derek DeYoung (01:33-01:44): Fly, Derek. I'm really excited to have you on.

Marvin, I appreciate you having me on. And I actually knew I liked you instantly because my middle name is Marvin.

Marvin Cash (01:44-01:47): Yeah, we talked about that in Denver. That's pretty funny. I don't run across a lot of Marvins.

Derek DeYoung (01:49-02:01): No, my grandfather's name was Marvin, and he was just an absolute awesome human being. I'm thinking that everyone with that name has those traits, hopefully.

Marvin Cash (02:02-02:17): I'll try to live up to that, and I'm the fourth Marvin. So, yeah, it's all good. Nice. Yeah, and so that's a really nice kind of segue into my traditional Articulate Fly question, which is to share your earliest fishing memory, and I suspect some of those have to do with fishing with your grandfather.

Derek DeYoung (02:19-03:57): Actually, Grandpa Marvin was afraid of the water and he passed away when I was seven years old so I had already begun fishing but I really didn't fish with him too much. I would say earliest fishing memory, we grew up on Millhouse Bayou in southwest Michigan and it was connected to the Grand River, which is the biggest river in the state, kind of picture like a small version of the Mississippi, kind of muddy. And that goes out to Lake Michigan. It's about a 35-minute boat ride out to the Big Lake, which we rarely did.

But as a kid, we had absolute freedom on Millhouse Bayou. And we would use our kind of path to trespass. You know, when you're a kid, you don't get in trouble. So we would walk the entire shoreline, or as much of it as we could, because it did get pretty swampy in the back, and fish all day long.

And I'm the youngest of three brothers. So they were fishing when I was in diapers. And the second my mom set me down and let me follow them, that's what I was going to do. So I just remember following my big brothers around the bayou and watching them catch fish and how excited they were. And shoot, by the time I could do it, I was already programmed to be a lifelong fisherman.

Marvin Cash (03:57-04:00): Yeah, that's super cool. How much older are your older brothers?

Derek DeYoung (04:02-05:11): Two and five years older. So just old enough where they were completely developmentally ahead of me. But I always thought I was, you know, like them. I was just really kind of an easy target for them.

Any trick they wanted to play, they used to have this scary story they would tell. And I've passed this story down to kids that I've had in my life over the years. But we would be camping out in our front yard and they'd tell this story around the campfire about old man Millhouse who was the mill keeper at the back of our bayou and at some point had some terrible accident and got sawed in half and about the time that they would tell the gruesome details of that one of them would jump up and say he heard something down by the water and they'd all go running off into the darkness and leave me by myself. So, and it worked because I was younger and absolutely terrified.

Marvin Cash (05:12-05:14): Yeah, it sounds like another version of the snipe hunt.

Derek DeYoung (05:18-05:21): A little meaner, a little more Halloween-y.

Marvin Cash (05:22-05:27): Absolutely. So you started chasing after your older brothers and fishing. When did you move to the dark side of fly fishing?

Derek DeYoung (05:29-07:06): Well you know it's so funny because having fly fished and been part of this industry for such a long time I try to think about when I realized that it was something different that there were different approaches and different types of people fishing because we always had my dad's childhood fly fish like fly rods like old Shakespeares nothing nice and nothing had the appropriate line to rod size and so it was just whatever clearance fly line he picked up like 25 years ago was on the reel but there were probably four or five fly rods in the rafters and I mean springtime we fought over who got the best fly rod and we all spread out along the shore and caught bluegills and bass all day long so I didn't really even understand at that point that we were doing something with you know the history and heritage of fly fishing I just knew it was the most fun way to do it so that was probably how I started fly fishing it wasn't you know i was much older and started seeing fly fishing magazines and tv shows on saturday mornings that i started to go oh these people like use that rod that i use but they do all this other stuff with it i had no idea that's really cool so you fished with your

Marvin Cash (07:06-07:15): older brothers were they your angling and hunting mentors or were there other folks in your life that kind of helped you get steeped in the Michigan outdoor tradition?

Derek DeYoung (07:18-08:58): Well, I would say the sibling rivalry was very thick between us and being the youngest. I mean, if I could outfish one of my older brothers, you know, that was like winning the Super Bowl. So, and we're all very competitive. So, yeah, they definitely got me to try as hard as I could because, boy, if I outfished them, I was going to tell that story for years to come.

And my oldest brother, Matt, still to this day fishes a lot. And he's the editor of a hometown newspaper. But for a lot of years, he was like the sporting outdoors editor. So that was kind of cool and kind of followed his upbringing as well with fishing and hunting.

But my dad, his brothers, grandpa on my dad's side, they all are huge fishermen in every type of, you know, they like to food fish, really. Walleye, perch, bluegills, anything that fries up real good, that's what they want to catch. And watch out because they have like, they're those like sixth sense type fishermen. Like you can go try to catch perch with Uncle Dar. He'll have 25 in the boat before you even get a bite. So it's just crazy, you know, I'm sure you fish with people like that.

Marvin Cash (08:58-08:59): Yeah, super dialed in.

Derek DeYoung (09:01-10:14): It's just a lifetime almost generations deep of just having that mindset yeah and but yeah and they i mean anything that you can hunt for they hunt for that they live and breathe it so yeah it all seemed pretty normal to me i you know to put it in terms of a mentor doesn't seem right. It's more so if you grow up on a ranch with cattle and horses, that's just what you do and what you know. You think everybody does that, right?

But, you know, I learned later on, it was funny, in high school, I didn't have a single friend that was into fishing. I would bring all my friends that I played athletics with out fishing, and they'd get so mad because I'd tell them, let's just go out in the little shore boat for an hour. And about a half hour after dark, five hours later, we'd finally roll in and they would just, oh, Derek, every time, every single time he keeps you out there all day. But it's like, hey, I would have come in in an hour if the fish weren't biting, but they were.

Marvin Cash (10:14-10:17): Yeah. You got to have your priorities.

Derek DeYoung (10:19-10:30): Right. It's an addiction. I don't think too many people who are truly into fishing don't call it an addiction because once you get going on it, it's hard to stop.

Marvin Cash (10:30-10:43): No, absolutely. And, you know, it makes kind of my next question probably almost impossible to answer. Can you even think about what your life and your art career would be like if you hadn't grown up in that rich Michigan fishing and hunting tradition?

Derek DeYoung (10:45-11:47): You know, just by spirit, I think a lot of us are adventurers. And we kind of pick what kind of pastime hobby is going to express that need to have adventure. So, I mean, I'm totally that way. Love setting up really challenging outdoor trips and adventures and doing everything myself, including bringing my boat to crazy places and fixing my boat to some degree. I'm no mechanic, but just, you know, you're forced to have to do some boat maintenance and fixing and rebuilding systems and things like that.

So I don't know if I had no experience doing the whole fishing thing. I think it would just be some other type of adventurous thing, like mountain biking or hiking or some type of water sport.

Marvin Cash (11:49-12:02): Got it. And, you know, learning more about you preparing for the interview, I mean, it was, I think, from a very early age, like elementary school, you were referred to as the artist. And I was just curious when you decided to make art your career.

Derek DeYoung (12:04-16:32): Never. Never decided it because it was never in question. I was always going to do it. One of those stupid, just like non-questions, Derek's going to be an artist. Like amongst any group I was with, that was what was expected of me for my future. And I never questioned it. And it's probably a big reason that I've had some success. I never thought like, oh, I'll switch this up. Like, or maybe I could do this or that. I was like, no, you know, when I got into, you know, quote unquote, being a professional artist, which I would consider once I got out of art school, the economy was absolutely trashed. And I was in Michigan.

And for everyone out there who doesn't understand how tied to the auto industry Michigan is, you know, you've got the huge actual GM and Ford plants that many people got laid off from but there were shops machine shops pattern building all kinds of different industries that were completely based on making bumpers and mirrors and parts for those cars and those were spread all over michigan and all those people were making good money potentially able to buy art and they were all laid off too so that's what i came into trying to sell paintings.

And I remember people just going, oh my gosh, these are just terrible breaks for you. You know, here you are, this talented artist, you likely would have made a great living at it, but here you are in this economy, you're not going to make it. And I just thought to myself, I have never had more than a couple bucks in my pocket. I don't need to get rich, but I do need to make my art. And this is what I want to do. So there's just not even a question. I'm going to push through and make as much or as little money as I can selling my paintings.

It's just funny because over the years, you know, people who really are concerned and care for me have, most of them have put their foot in their mouth and advised me to switch careers. And I think if they were telling this story, they would say that I just had the most just non-receptive, dead look in my eye. Like, okay, let's finish this conversation and start talking about fishing because I'm not going to switch my career.

You know, luckily, the economy began to recover. And during that time, the first three years of my career, I was able to figure a lot of things out and discover kind of who I wanted to be as an artist moving forward. And not only that, my father-in-law is a money manager and an entrepreneur. And he knew that it was important that we knew how to run a business, even though, gosh, I wouldn't even call it a business at that point. It just cost us money. Just paying for supplies and entries into shows and booth stuff.

But he had a CPA that was a family friend and he signed us up with him. And so we would go like once a month and this guy was big into wine. So he'd have about four bottles of very specific wine that he would, you know, like one bottle was for when we were going over all these different things for business and how to set up. Then a pre-dinner wine, then like a Cabernet for doing the main course, and then an after-dinner wine. By the time we left that place, I was so shit-faced. But we, little by little, did learn all the right ways to start and run a business right from the get-go. So we didn't spend five years kind of doing it incorrectly and have to make up for that. So I've always looked back at that time and been extremely appreciative of that guidance.

Marvin Cash (16:34-16:44): No, absolutely. It's important to have people that believe in you and what you're trying to do. On the art side of being an artist, who were some of the folks that mentored you as you developed?

Derek DeYoung (16:47-21:33): Well, this is kind of one of the most impactful things that happened to me as an artist because when I was a kid, I wasn't all that humble about my art. I thought I was going to be the next big thing. And I guess, you know, that's what my grandparents told me. So I believed it and had no reason why to question it.

So my art teacher, Mrs. McGelfish, that's a real name. She had like a memo that was like an entry into the Michigan United Conservation Club Youth Wildlife Art Competition. That's a mouthful. And anyway, she walks right over. She doesn't even like read it to the class. She just walks right over, sets it in front of me.

And at the time I was in, I think, fourth grade. So I brought it home. My dad and I read over it, and I got a nice piece of paper, got my pencils out, and set up a desk in front of his trophy-mounted walleye in the basement. And I sat there and carefully drew this walleye and looked up what kind of minnows they eat in Michigan in the encyclopedia. We didn't look at the computer. And I got, you know, some pictures of those minnows. I drew five or six minnows in front, a few little rocks and weeds.

And the first place prize was a $200 savings bond. I didn't even know what a savings bond was, but I pictured it as cash in my wallet. And I absolutely already had like three fishing rods and a bunch of lures picked out from the big Bass Pro catalog that sat around our house.

So we end up, we drive the two hours to Lansing, the state capitol. My cousin came and met us. She was going to school at Michigan State. And I mean, I thought we were going to walk in and they were going to spot me and go, oh, there's the winner. Here's your blue ribbon. You know, it was not even a question. I'd won it.

I look around. My family and I spread out looking through the whole exhibit, trying to find my piece. We finally find it in some dark little corner. It didn't even get, there was a, like, first place in, like, 15 honorable mentions, and it didn't even get an honorable mention.

And I'll never forget that, because that was the moment I realized that I got to, like, get better. Like, I thought I was, you know, the top guy, and I absolutely got my butt kicked.

So we get back in the minivan and start heading back to Grand Haven there's not even a noise the radio's not on dead silence i think even my parents were a little bit like in shock because they thought i wanted to and about a couple miles into the ride my dad kind of turns around and he's kind of a no nonsense not real empathetic type of guy he's just like well you can sit and mope about it or you can figure out what you gotta do to get better he goes i went and looked like first second third fourth place world paintings you don't even know how to paint so that's it you gotta start taking painting lessons and about two months later i was enrolled a local famous artist in grand haven as famous as you can get as being an artist in grand haven offered art lessons and myself and about four or five other young people would go every week and and learn from him and paint and I did that for a few years and his name was Bob Mishmerheisen and I would definitely credit him as being just an absolute catalyst for me to just like that was when I really started catching on and learning all the basics of art and able to kind of utilize those to do what I wanted to do. But that was just such a big thing because I think had I just won that, I would have just rested on, you know, what skill I already had and not sought out to get better.

Marvin Cash (21:33-21:42): No, got it. That's really interesting. And was that walleye drawing, was that the first time that fishing and art intersected with you or did you always draw nature things?

Derek DeYoung (21:45-22:40): You know, it was definitely not the first, but I think it was maybe the first time, I really sat down and made a finished piece on a larger piece of paper. You know, back at that time you know in art class at school you know it was a little bit tough to kind of bring fish into most of those projects so but on my own time in my sketchbooks I would constantly be drawing bass and stuff like that just not I didn't sit down and really you know I approached this one as like a still life I had the walleye right in front of me you know no detail tail. So in a way it kind of was.

Got it. And how does, you know, what's the interaction between

Marvin Cash (22:41-22:45): your fishing and your fishing art and, you know, how do they inform each other kind of

Derek DeYoung (22:45-24:06): really going in both directions? You know, I think had I been an artist for, you know, a long period of my life and then started fishing I would probably approach fishing much more so as just an extension of my art and i would say people who fish with me would definitely say Derek is you know everyone's got their own approach to fishing right if you're very scientifically minded you can break it into really enjoying that part of fly fishing the entomology and you know some people it's all about tying the flies for me it is about like that visual experience and but I've already been fishing for you know my whole life as well as doing my artwork and I'm a very workman like fisherman I work really hard at it and I want to do as well as I possibly can. That being said, if it's not the right day, I'm able to, you know, the older I get, the more I'm able to chill out. But, no, I give everything I've got to it.

Marvin Cash (24:07-24:13): Yeah, so it's really just like your art. It sounds like you're kind of full speed in whatever you're focused on at that moment.

Derek DeYoung (24:15-24:59): Yeah, I mean, I think about down in the Keys. bringing my friends and family out and a lot of them you know don't have much experience fishing the salt now I'm very kind of intense about making sure I've trapped some pinfish and I've got some pinfish in case the fishing's tougher we see an opportunity and I've got all the rods rigged I sit at night and rig rods I'm not the kind of guy who's going to show up at your boat and go, well, what should we rig? Like I've sat there and had my scotch or, or a glass of wine the night before and rigged everything and thought about it. Cause that's what I love doing.

Marvin Cash (25:00-25:09): Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's really, it's kind of funny you say that. Cause there's a whole kind of meditation and so many things around fishing that have nothing to do with catching the fish.

Derek DeYoung (25:11-25:14): No, it's yeah. It's runs a lot deeper than that, doesn't it?

Marvin Cash (25:14-25:23): It does. And we talked about this a little bit in Denver, and I know you've shifted over time, but, you know, what's your preferred medium and how has it evolved over your career?

Derek DeYoung (25:27-28:30): Well, I never thought I would say that I'm an acrylic painter because I just hated acrylic paints. I started using oil back in high school, probably junior in high school. I switched to oil, and I never looked back once. A couple times just because I needed to do a project and have it dry quick, I used acrylic, and I just was like, how do other artists use this? I hate it.

And the method that I used, I still remember back in my art school days, there was another painter there. And I loved the look of his paintings. And I asked him about it one day. And he said, well, I use what's called wet on wet technique. And I'm like, okay, what's that? And he's like, well, I actually go from start to finish on an oil painting. And I'm adding, you know, wet oil paint over wet oil paint under it. But there's a technique and, you know, you go from the thickest to the thinnest. And certain colors have to go down first because the color beneath it will contaminate it.

But anyway, once I tried that, I was in love with that technique. And I used it all the way up till probably 2010 or 12 when I started suffering from headaches every time I would go down in my studio. And it became apparent pretty quickly that I developed an allergy probably to the paint thinner.

And at that point, I was like, you know what, I've just got to bite the bullet and make the change. it was a tough six months. You know, all the techniques that I had developed were, you know, I don't use at all. So those little trademark little things that I would do that you would see in my paintings versus other people's, like now I'm starting at a very, I don't know, more elementary level.

And it was actually a really good thing because it made me, again, push hard to learn this new medium and I think I'm a better painter now with acrylic than I ever was in oil and I've developed all new tricks and ways of working and favorite colors I mean for me I've got like six or seven colors by a certain brand that I wouldn't know what to do if those weren't laying there under my easel because I just love those colors so much. In an oil paint, I had my six or seven, and now in acrylic, I've found those two. So it all worked out in the end, but it definitely was a tough transition.

Marvin Cash (28:31-28:41): Very cool. And I know early on in your art career, you realized the importance of developing a unique style. Why is that so important for an artist?

Derek DeYoung (28:43-32:07): You know, I had a professor back in the day, Sandy Ringlever was her name, at Kendall, small art school in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And I would do a project for her class that I absolutely, you know, just felt like I killed it. I just would come in so proud, thinking it's going to be one of the best in the class.

And she did me the favor, as did several other professors, of never, you know, being impressed with my art. Like, that is such an important thing for a professor. Because if you're, you know, if you're just going to go, oh, my God, look at this. This is amazing. And just give me praise. Once again, I'm just going to kind of think I've made it.

She would look at it and go, well, this is all well and good. But I've seen 150 of these in the last two months. What separates you from them? You know, it's not vastly better. And it's not different. It's just more of the same. And she'd hand it back to me. And I, at the time, was just blown out of the water. Like, so solid. And, you know, I've got the typical artist ego that's quite fragile. But I also am the type of person who works very well off of negative criticism. So it's important that I have people that will keep me, you know, pushing forward.

So I would walk back to my house and just sit and think about what she said. And it didn't take long for me to realize, like, I'm able to come up with something fresh and new that she hasn't seen ever before. I just have to harness that.

And that's when I really started focusing on how to, you know, approach things in new ways, make people see things in a new way or just take a subject to a new place and how much fun that is. You know, if you're seeing fish in the same genre of painting over and over again, what happens is it just gets stagnant. And even if it's done beautifully, you kind of, oh, yeah, that's another scene like that. Okay, seen those before. That's a nice one.

But I didn't want that. You know, as an artist, I put my absolute heart and soul into my artwork. And to have someone, you know, barely glance at it would just not do justice to what I'm trying to do. And I really wanted to push fish art to a completely new genre, new space. I'm not sure what the right term here would be, but I didn't want it to be the same old thing. I wanted people to really have to look and examine my art in order to, you know, understand what's going on or appreciate what I've done. And I guess that's really what started me off with feeling like I wanted to do something, you know, totally different from the pack.

Marvin Cash (32:08-32:10): Got it. And so how would you describe your style?

Derek DeYoung (32:13-33:50): Shoot, maybe ADD. I'm super easily bored, and I love doing new things. The crucial part is that each kind of series of paintings I do contain a quality level, a palette maybe, just things that are derivative to previous styles, not to completely step away from what I've done in the past. I do think that's important.

But at the same time, I was telling you about doing some film editing yesterday. And when I watch the raw footage, as I put it together, I'm constantly going, am I bored? Is this droning on? Because if I'm bored, like, you know, whoever else watches this was probably bored three seconds earlier. So I've got to figure out a way to keep the energy going, keep it fun, keep it exciting.

So it's, I feel like my viewers of my art, it's the same thing. If I'm bored, they're bored. So I've got to keep entertaining myself and figuring out new ways of doing things and improving and evolving as an artist so that they can see that evolution and get some joy out of it and see, you know, see their favorite subject matter, which is fly fishing, in a new way that they haven't seen before.

Marvin Cash (33:51-33:59): No, that's really neat. And kind of stepping back a little bit, what does that arc of evolution look like, say, from when you got out of art school to where you are today?

Derek DeYoung (34:01-37:15): Well, okay. In my office, which is actually Janelle's office, Janelle runs the DeYoung Studio and keeps me organized in my career. So in her office is a large photorealistic painting of one of my childhood neighbors, this old guy. He was just very interesting to me. And it's probably five foot by three foot. And I used the like grid. I did like the grid system where I took a photo of them. I put a grid down on the photo and I put a grid down on the canvas and then I enlarged every grid space on the photo to be like 17 by 11, whatever size paper I had. and then taped that above and just tried to capture every detail I could in that giant, you know, thing. And then I'd move to the next square.

And a lot of people still do stuff like that. I did that. And that was one of the pieces that I entered for scholarship days in which I ended up getting second place and almost a full ride in art school. So that was where I was and it served me well. And I was pretty good at it. Not as good as some of the guys you see now doing that type of stuff. But I knew that wasn't my future. It didn't really connect with kind of my energy level. It really kind of took my creative soul and stifled it. I could do it, but it wasn't what I wanted to do.

So in art school, I, I mostly, I painted and did a lot of illustration classes. And again, was mostly represent, you know, representative with, you know, my work, no abstract stuff. And during that time, I did a lot of fish, like whatever the subject was, I would add fish to it. So I gained a reputation around the school as being the fish artist pretty quickly.

But it wasn't until I got out of art school and really started looking at what the like kind of art culture in fly fishing was that I started to go, if I want to be different, if I want to do something that hasn't been done, more contemporary style, composition, and colors are not being used. That was the first thing I noticed. And that really wasn't what my portfolio looked like. But I started trying to kind of push it and looked at other more contemporary art in other subject matters to see how they approached it and just slowly develop my own much more contemporary style than what was out there.

Marvin Cash (37:16-37:24): Very neat. And I've heard you say on a couple of occasions that you aren't the best painter, but you think you're one of the most creative ones. What does that mean?

Derek DeYoung (37:27-39:07): Well, if you're familiar with kind of art, it's, if it can be judged, which I think it can, but some people don't feel that way. You break it down into kind of different segments, if you will. And one is execution. Then another is a concept. Another is composition. But the execution is just one part. And it's kind of the end part that has to do with how well you actually put paint on canvas and there are some painters out there that just absolutely blow my mind they're just so good at it and of course everybody's different in what they're good at in art my strength has always been concept in composition and i've worked extremely hard to be the best painter I can be. That being said, there's some painters out there that just, you know, I just can't believe how good they are. So that's kind of what I mean by that is just that that's something that I have to work hard to achieve a high level of execution versus some of these guys just have it.

Now, that being said, some of their work lacks concept and lacks composition, you know, so it just, you can't have everything in life.

Marvin Cash (39:08-39:30): No, absolutely. It's all about the trade-offs. You know, it's, it's interesting too. And you and I touched on this a little bit when we were together in Denver, you know, you, you, you're gifted and you see a different way of bringing your art into the world, right? You know, whether it's, you know, different media or different applications. And I was really curious when you paint something, do you paint it for yourself or do you paint it with a particular audience in mind?

Derek DeYoung (39:33-41:22): I definitely paint it for myself. You know, I think of my time at the easel as being very much my own and my own like. It's kind of that's my career. I only get one. And if I paint for money or if I paint commercially versus my, my approach and the older I get, the more I approach it this way is I realize, you know, I want to become the best painter I can possibly be at this point in my life. And I want to then expand on that. And in the next decade become that much better.

And you only do that if you're constantly critiquing and working for your students with no thought to the audience or artist whatsoever. Not artist, but the audience and consumer. So for me, I'm working in a way that I want to be able to look back, you know, towards the end of my career and go, yes, you chased it. you pushed it as hard as you could and you painted for the right reasons and you can see it in the work versus you know it just being and I think everybody comes out ahead when you approach it that way because you know my clients get better and I produce better but I'm happier and fulfilling my potential. And, you know, I think that that's probably one of the biggest things for any of us in our careers is that we just want to fulfill our potential.

Marvin Cash (41:23-41:37): That's really, really interesting. And I know for you that whether you're solving an art problem or a fishing problem, you have a lot of respect for tradition and process. And I was really curious where that came from for you.

Derek DeYoung (41:40-43:01): you know what it really boils down to is when I came out of art school I went to art school at a time when it was just the cusp of computer design at the time I'd never had a computer at my house I didn't even know how to turn one on And I failed my first, like, introduction to computer design class. So that ages me and dates me. But it also is what probably instilled that extremely traditional sense of it takes a lot of skill to do a traditional, you know, painting, drawing, being able to look at something or think of something and execute on that drawing versus, you know, projecting it or using it. some type of digital assistance.

And so for me, I'll never switch and utilize those technologies because I just feel like it's becoming a lost art. And it's, for me, an important thing to my style and just to look at my art.

Marvin Cash (43:02-43:22): No, that's really neat. And, you know, it's interesting too. I was curious, I mean, obviously you fish a lot, but can you talk to us a little bit about, you know, where the inspiration for your pieces comes from? Because it's really, you know, you're not photorealistic, right? So the fish is part of it, but that's really, there's much more to the creative process, I think, than just that.

Derek DeYoung (43:24-45:43): Oh, yeah, no doubt. You know, just sitting quietly, staring off into the oblivion, and just trying to visualize something interesting, you know, that maybe I think happens or maybe I saw happen. And then trying to work out all the visual problems in my sketchbook. Some sculptures that I just completely make up the scene, they take me, you know, a full day of just drawing it over and over and over again before I think it looks right.

Well, that being said, it certainly isn't scientifically perfectly proportioned and correct, but I'm not of that type of artist. I don't need that for it to be a good paint. So I'm more trying to communicate something that I want to connect with other people who spend too much time fishing like me and have seen these things. And when they see it in my artwork, they go, okay, yes, I've seen that. That is awesome. I can't believe that guy did that. That's what I'm shooting for.

And that said, you know, I love filming fish. I like to set GoPros out in areas that I know fish cross over that area or there's schools around that zone. And I'll get three hours of footage, cut it down to 15 minutes where the fish was pulled. And then I will take freeze frames from that video and sit in front of my computer with my sketchbooks and draw the gesture body positions that I see the fish in. And just learn how a fish moves and what ways it bends and how does it hold its fins when it's doing this or that. And that's been a really cool thing for me to be able to do just to really learn a lot about fish.

Marvin Cash (45:44-45:57): Yeah, that's really neat. And so in terms of when you go to actually paint, do you like to paint every day? Or do you basically block out and say, I'm going to really go hard for this period of time, and then I'm going to take a break and do something else for a while?

Derek DeYoung (46:00-48:42): So, Marvin, back in kind of about 10 years ago when I kind of first hit the scene, and I'll be honest with you, my prices were much cheaper. And people were seeing a lot in the fly fishing magazines and stuff. I would probably work at the easel 45 hours a week. And, you know, I would go until I was just about ready to keel over.

And a couple things happened during that period. One, I don't feel like that was my strongest work. Two, I developed just this crazy, like, back, I don't want to say injury, but what happened is from doing all that detail work day in and day out, it started to, like, kind of tighten up my entire arm all the way, like, until I couldn't even sleep at night because my pinky would be just, like, hurt so bad. all the muscles and tendons pulling on it.

And, and I also wasn't very happy to be totally honest with you. I would, you know, I enjoyed what I was doing, but I just, I didn't have that sense of like really doing my best because I was just not giving myself the opportunity to recharge.

I kind of recognized that and decided to change the way that I ran my entire career and started taking less commissions. And, you know, doing two or three paintings in a row and then taking a week off. And then that week I can, you know, there's plenty of other things that need to be done for the studio, the DeYoung studio. So take the week off and help Janelle or get ready for a show or build canvases. And, of course, spend some time on the water chasing fish.

And I have found that that has completely changed how I paint, how I feel about my artwork. And it's, you know, it's a luxury, really, because I think most people have to take every job that comes their way. And I was that way too. I just eventually decided that wasn't how I was going to move forward.

Marvin Cash (48:43-48:53): Yeah, it's interesting you say that because I would completely agree with that. I think creating the space to live your authentic self is much harder than most people think.

Derek DeYoung (48:55-49:36): You have to commit to it. I really think that you have to, especially being, you know, I have no boss who's going to either A, work me like a rented mule, or B, say you need to be, you know, more concerned with your life balance. I have to recognize these things and make those choices. And I've become much more capable of doing that as time's gone on. But, you know, in my 20s and early 30s, if someone wanted me to do a painting for them, I was going to do it. And I was going to take every job I could get.

Marvin Cash (49:37-50:03): No, totally get it. It makes a lot of sense. And, you know, one of the things, too, that's interesting, right? We talked a little bit earlier in this interview about how you have a different way of seeing where your art can live in the world. And I was really curious if your creative process is different for making an original versus maybe you have an idea that you think is better represented on a branded product. Is the process the same or is it different?

Derek DeYoung (50:05-51:39): It's very close. It's not exactly the same. But another one of those kind of career decisions was this. You know, Janelle and I produce a line of product that showcases my artwork. And we sell it on our website and we sell it wholesale to shops all over the place. And it started to become apparent that, oh, we need this illustration or we need, well, wouldn't this be a great thing? Can you quickly do that?

And, you know, before you know it, you have like just folders of all these, what I wouldn't consider to be fine art. and I finally just one day said Janelle we gotta sit down and talk i'm not going to do this anymore the DeYoung studio moving forward is based upon my fine art so what what inspires me what i feel drawn to do at the easel is then what's used on the product not what product do we want to do? Okay, go in and do a piece of art for that.

So I just feel like long term for my, my, you know, career, that is going to make me be, you know, do better work, become a better artist. And, you know, it's me who's at the wheel. I've got to choose if I'm going to be an illustrator or a fine artist. And, and me personally, I want to be a fine artist. That's all I've ever wanted.

Marvin Cash (51:40-51:50): That's really neat. And, you know, kind of shifting gears a little bit to talk about community. Do you, are there artists that you share ideas with, or do you like to figure things out more or less on your own?

Derek DeYoung (51:56-52:43): There's a couple artists, not many, that I will discuss things with. Maybe their paintings are one of mine. More so than that, we just talk about the industry or just kind of the commonality of our careers and what we go through and commiserate a little bit and make jokes about it. I think that's probably more important than actual art critique or anything like that. Although once in a while I'll use those guys to eye something that I know isn't right and I don't have the right reference for it. So I've got to solve that visual problem, you know, just based on what I know. And sometimes having another set of eyes on it can really make the difference.

Marvin Cash (52:44-52:49): No, it's important to have those people close to you that you trust to give you good feedback, right?

Derek DeYoung (52:52-53:26): What's kind of funny is that I love other artists. We are a breed of people, for sure. And, you know, my days in art school, I just, you know, most artists are just kind of strange in a good way. But after I left art school and kind of started doing what I do, it seems like most of my friends are fly fishing guides and that they're a breed too.

Marvin Cash (53:28-53:28): Yes, they are.

Derek DeYoung (53:28-53:43): So I'm a weird artist guy amongst this breed of fly fishing guides. And no, but it just, those things work, work in the way they're supposed to. And it's, it's all good. It's funny.

Marvin Cash (53:44-53:54): that's neat. How do you feel when your style gets copied, right? Does it make you angry? Do you think, you know, people are being lazy as artists or do you just kind of view it as your contribution to

Derek DeYoung (53:54-55:41): kind of the evolutionary spiral? Well, that's a good question, but I really choose not to allow myself to get worked up about things like that. Maybe, maybe 10 years ago, I might've gotten fired up when someone did something that I deemed to be, you know, pretty much plagiarizing me. But as the years have gone on, I just, first of all, it does nothing to focus on, you know, calling people out or, or feeling negative about it.

and I think it is more like what you say. It's just like an evolution of fly fishing art. New things are, you know, they see what direction I'm going in, and they try to take it and push it, you know, a step further or add their own flair to it, and I think a lot of them do a really good job of it, and I think those artists, you know, keep the pressure on me, which is a good thing, and keep me pushing forward and trying to get better and trying to be the best artist in the fly fishing world.

But some of them, you know, don't put their own flair on it and just kind of use those ideas and try to, you know, I don't know, maybe, maybe they don't have the ability to kind of push it any further than where it is. So in those cases, I can, you know, get a little frustrated, but I don't focus on it. That's for sure. Cause it's just not worth it.

Marvin Cash (55:41-55:50): Yeah, no, life's, life's too short for sure. And, you know, we talked earlier, obviously you fish to, to relax, but what are some other things you do to recharge your creative batteries?

Derek DeYoung (55:53-57:28): Well, this is, this is one thing I've never said in an interview, but so this is inside info. at the DeYoung house, there is often, karaoke being sang. And any of my friends who, come over to our house know that DeYoung is going to turn the karaoke on at some point during the night and force them to sing something. So that's fun. as cheesy as it sounds, it's absolutely a blast. And it, it's just, you know, people just take to it. It brings people totally alive, you know?

The other thing that I've been doing a lot lately, and it's funny because I pretty much have the same approach as I would for fishing or art. And I'm a bit of a rock hound and I've bought a rock saw and a kind of a polishing machine. And I love going out there and putting the headphones on and picking a part of an agate that I found and trying to use the diamond thing and get down to where the pattern is. And I'll sit out there all evening, come inside, super excited to show Janelle what, you know, the rock after all the stuff I've done to it. And she placates me and kind of gets excited about it. And we've got them displayed all around our house. So that's kind of fun.

Marvin Cash (57:29-57:42): Very, very neat. And, you know, I have a similar question I ask my fishing guide guests, but I always ask artists to share what they think the biggest misconception people have about art and the life of an artist.

Derek DeYoung (57:43-59:00): Oh, well, there's several. And I don't know that, you know, most stereotypes somewhere down deep are based on truth. So I can't say that they're totally incorrect or even, you know, for everybody. For me, when people hear I'm an artist that have no idea, you know, what my art is, they instantly start talking to me like I'm like a kid. Oh, you're an artist. Wonderful. Well, good for you. Now, what kind of art do you do?

I'm like, do you talk to anybody else like that when you ask them what they do? It's just so weird. And like, no, I mean, it's an actual career, a job. And I've got days when I've got to do paperwork and taxes and quotes. And, you know, it's, yeah, I'm not just like sitting there painting daisies. And, you know, I don't know. I don't know what people envision being an artist is, but it's funny how some people react to it.

Marvin Cash (59:01-59:26): That's a funny story for sure. And, you know, obviously, and we were talking about this yesterday, you know, you've become one of the most visible, successful brands in the fly fishing art world. And I was wondering if you could share with us that moment where you knew you had moved, you know, beyond. I think you said when you graduated from art school, you said, now I'm a professional artist. When you move from that point in time to your like, I'm a brand.

Derek DeYoung (59:29-01:01:31): That's a good question. I kind of feel like reflecting in that way is hard for me because I still feel like I'm midway through the race. So maybe someday I'll break it down and figure that out. But it was probably in the first couple of years of living in Montana. I moved from Grand Rapids in the house that we lived in through art school. And that was probably 2007.

I came out to Denver and did like kind of a tour of art shows around the West. And this was my first taste of bringing my art to the West as well as fishing out there. And it just completely blew my mind. And the people were so welcoming and just encouraging to me. And when I got back home from that trip, I told my wife, we're moving out to Montana. And she pretty much just started bawling because she, you know, it's a little harder thing for some women. You know, she had a good job and things were stable and she understood, you know, and now here we're going to throw a wrench in it. Go out to Montana where we don't know anybody and we don't, you know, she doesn't have a job.

But we moved out there and she got a job with a local printing company in Livingston and things went great. And my career really started to take off. And probably, you know, a year or two after we moved out there, I would say I started to kind of see that I was building a brand versus just your normal art career, I guess.

Marvin Cash (01:01:32-01:02:01): Very neat. And I know you've got a different approach, too. So, you know, most artists, you know, they'll sell their originals and their license, you know, prints and things like that. But pretty early on, you realized that you wanted to control your brand more closely and you created DeYoung Studios. Where did that idea come from to be the direct maker of, you know, whether it's ore wraps or fly boxes or hats or buffs or glasses? Where did that idea come from?

Derek DeYoung (01:02:03-01:05:41): Well, let me start off by saying it was the dumbest decision I ever made. If you want to take up a ton of days that you would have preferred to be floating down the Yellowstone River, start a product company. Because for every dollar made, the amount of hours worked is so much greater than that of, you know, what I do as a fine artist. And I have a lot of other artists talk to me about this. You know, maybe I'd like to start something like that. And I'm always like, first of all, you got to, you know, follow your dreams and do what you envision for your career. But think twice because now you're talking about a real responsible career where, you know, you have to have stuff done on time for these companies and places that sell our stuff. If an order is supposed to be there by a certain time, you're not going fishing. It doesn't matter what hatch is happening. Whereas if I've had an original painting going and my friends call and say, oh, my gosh, the stonefly hatch is going crazy. Do you have me in the morning? Yes, I do. And I'm going. So that's a big difference.

But truly, working with Simms in the early days, it was a little different back then. I worked directly with a guy who I became good friends with, and we would come up with the stuff that they were going to make with my art on it for the year. And all the time, they, like, you know, shoot down a lot of the coolest things we came up with. It didn't work for every market. It just didn't work for that, like, kind of large of a company to do. And it just became apparent that if I had no red tape or no committee to get product approved by, I could do any of these cool products that I want to.

And that being said, I've got an extremely talented and beautiful wife, Janelle, and I've always wanted her to have her own business. You can imagine I've never had a real job other than, you know, this. And I've always been able to travel and take time off when I want. And she's worked for corporate America and gets, you know, two to three weeks vacation a year. So we're living very different lives at that time. And that's tough for a marriage.

So I really wanted to start a second business anyway for her to run. And so it all just lined up and made sense. And if she wasn't such a hard worker and just so dedicated to it, there's no way that the DeYoung studio would work. But she's just truly amazing at what she does.

But it was definitely, you know, there were two or three years there that I wondered if we made the right choice. because it was a tough business to start. And, you know, you're competing directly against companies that have people who are very, very intelligent and know exactly what they're doing. And it's easy to get, you know, get your butt kicked by that.

Marvin Cash (01:05:42-01:05:54): That's a really neat story. And I was kind of curious too, you know, we talked earlier about how you paint for yourself. How do you balance that tension between being successful as an artist and being commercially successful?

Derek DeYoung (01:05:58-01:08:18): Well, I don't, most days, I'm not a black and white guy, but most days I don't have to deal with that tension because if I'm successful as a fine artist, I believe that the DeYoung Studios brand will go where I want it and where it should go. So there are days when, you know, I've got to go, okay, she's got a product that she's trying to release and she does need some specific thing. And on those occasions, I'll bend a little bit and, you know, do what I need to do for her.

Or sometimes for other companies that license from us, I'll have to do something custom. And just based on size specifications or whatever colors that they need. One kind of goofy project I did back in the day, the backup goalie for the Columbus Blue Jackets NHL team calls and says he wants a brown trout helmet for his uniform. And I'm like, well, yeah, I can do a brown trout flank on it. No problem. That'll be awesome. He goes, yeah, but the manager says it has to be in our team colors, which are red, white, and blue. I'm like, that's not the color of a brown trout. He goes, well, do what you got to do. Like, just make it look kind of brown trout.

So I did a patriotic red, white, and blue brown trout flank on this thing. and I brought it to the local auto paint shop, and they put, like, three coats of auto clear over it, and I'm just like, please, God, don't let the first puck that hits this thing just peel all that paint right off. You know, I have no idea what's going to happen to it, but I never did hear that there was any problem with it, and every time friends and family would catch, you know, just be going by and see this NHL game, and see that helmet, they'd take a picture or call me, oh, you got to go, yeah, look at, they're on TV, your helmet's on TV. So that was kind of a, kind of a neat project.

Marvin Cash (01:08:18-01:08:23): Very cool. Have you ever done anything that you thought was too commercial and regretted it later?

Derek DeYoung (01:08:27-01:09:18): You know, I can't say that I have, because it's all a learning process. And if I were to say that it's all been equally as successful, each thing would be a complete lie. Some stuff just hasn't worked, but you know, that's how you learn. Right. And hopefully the next time I went to do something, I made those adjustments and did a better job or chose a better way of doing it.

So yeah, you can't really spend too much time regretting anything like that. I've always tried to run my business with as much integrity as I possibly could. And I think that's really important. And I think that's probably why I don't have too many regrets when it comes to that.

Marvin Cash (01:09:19-01:09:45): No, that's really neat. And, you know, I think most of my listeners know, but if they don't, you know, you spend part of the year in Michigan, part of the year in Montana, and part of the year in the Florida Keys fishing and painting. And I think it's really interesting. I mentioned this yesterday when we were on the phone, you know, most of us struggle with how to integrate our fishing passion with our regular day job. But you've successfully put that together. And what's your secret for being able to kind of have it all?

Derek DeYoung (01:09:49-01:12:55): An understanding wife. Man, I have, first of all, living in these different places, there's a dream come true. Each of them is something that is a longtime dream realized through making sacrifices and figuring out how we can do this. And I don't want people to think that this is just, you know, because I have so much money, I can just do whatever I want. That's not the case at all. We definitely sacrifice and make decisions based on, you know, how to, how to be in these places and be able to chase the fish there and have the right boats.

And, some people put their money into their cars and, and houses. I live in a small house and have an old truck, but I've got a flats boat and I've got a bay boat for up here. So, I mean, it just, you know, you do decide what you want to do. And for me, being on the water is, is one of the most important things. So I always make choices with that being the case.

but being, being down in the Florida Keys for the winter is just amazing. There are a lot of cold fronts that move through and shut things down. And during that time, I am highly focused and, you know, it'll be a week, week and a half of just painting every day and getting ready for the next paintings or whatever I have to do and then all of a sudden boom weather goes back up and stabilizes and no wind and for the next four days straight I'm up two hours before light rigging I'm in the boat into my spot before light and tarpon fish until mid to late afternoon and so I'm able to kind of structure my work around when the fishing sucks and when it's good and if i have projects that need to be done and the fishing's good I'll still get up and go tarpon fishing I just won't go quite as far and I'll be back by 11 o'clock and get a half day's work in so very cool yeah i mean it's it's a really cool kind of balance but you know as much as it sounds like an excuse that someone would tell their wife being out there fishing definitely is a big part of my mindset in my my work at the easel so if i'm if i'm not out there chasing fish the authenticity and the passion in my artwork wouldn't be there. I truly think that.

Marvin Cash (01:12:56-01:13:00): Makes a lot of sense. Can you share with our listeners some of the projects you're working on

Derek DeYoung (01:13:00-01:15:50): right now? I've just finished up, and if you follow me on Instagram, maybe you saw it, the Pumpkin Seed Permit, which maybe you love or maybe you hate, but you got to admit, it at least made you smile and sometimes that's enough for me I love that piece I love pumpkin seed sunfish and to put those colors on a similar shaped giant permit I thought was just really fun and along with that mount so just to explain what it is a little bit I'm painting on a fiberglass primed, ready to paint mount that I order from a taxidermy supply shop.

Another thing that I'm doing is a series called trout tarpon. And that's just painting, you know, the colors and patterns of different trout on a tarpon. And as much as it seems like way out there and, you know, I'm always very cognitive of, is this crossing the line into being hokey or is it fabulous? And, you know, when you're doing stuff like I do, you're at danger of going past that line. And everyone's got their own opinion. Maybe some people think that I have crossed that line. But I think that, you know, as long as your concept is strong, then you're, you know, you don't go into the hokey zone very quickly.

And with trout tarpon, I think that, you know, people who just passionately love catching trout, even little trout in mountain streams, They're the kind of people who just sit with the trout in the water, you know, on your knees in the river rock, just looking at the sun shining on those colors. And to them, there's just nothing better. Then, on the other hand, they go down to the Keys and fish tarpon in the spring. And the adrenaline and the skill and the visuals of a school of tarpon coming up towards the boat and you have to make that cast. It just appeals to them on a whole other level.

So to take those two things and make it one piece of art, it just connects with people. And it's been cool to see how much people have loved that. So I finished a couple of those this fall too.

Marvin Cash (01:15:51-01:15:59): Very cool. And before I let you hop, why don't you let folks know where they can find you on the internet and where they can find you on social media?

Derek DeYoung (01:16:02-01:16:39): well i try to make it easy just my name Derek d-e-r-e-k d-e-y-o-u-n-g that's my website derrickdeyoung.com and then on instagram and facebook they can find me just at Derek.DeYoung. And I post most of my current projects that I'm working on or fishing adventures or whatever I'm doing. I'm pretty good at getting a couple shots up on there so you can follow along with what I'm doing.

Marvin Cash (01:16:40-01:16:46): Very cool. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time out to chat with me on this snowy Michigan morning.

Derek DeYoung (01:16:48-01:16:57): Yeah. Yep. Not doing too much fishing at this point. So this is a good time of year to get me on the horn.

Marvin Cash (01:16:58-01:17:00): Well, I really appreciate it, Derek. Thank you so much.

Derek DeYoung (01:17:01-01:17:02): Thanks for having me, Marvin.

Marvin Cash (01:17:03-01:18:12): Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Again, thanks to our sponsor, Nor-vise. Check out the Nor-vise system at www.nor-vise.com. and don't forget to use the coupon code from the top of the show to get 20% off between now and the end of November.

And folks, thanks so much for being a listener. We really appreciate it. Do us a favor. Please leave us a review on the podcatcher of your choice and subscribe, or even better, check out our new apps in the Apple App Store or in the Android Store of your choice. All you have to do is search The Articulate Fly. Thanks again, everybody. Tight lines. Thanks.