S2, Ep 32: Dan Davala of Orvis Adventures

EPISODE SUMMARY

Guest: Dan Davala - Fly Fishing Travel Specialist at Orvis Adventures (Vermont, formerly Arlington, Virginia)

In this episode: Orvis Adventures travel specialist Dan Davala shares his journey from self-taught teenage angler to FFI master casting instructor and fly fishing travel expert. Topics include mastering the art of casting instruction, founding the innovative Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders club in Washington DC, navigating the FFI certification process and planning successful fly fishing adventure travel around the world.

Key fishing techniques covered: • Double hauling (learned from Flip Pallot on Walker Cay Chronicles) • Aerial mends and loop control for casting instruction • Indicator nymphing and streamer fishing in tidal waters • Saltwater fly fishing in tropical destinations • Dry fly presentations on spring creeks and chalk streams

Location focus: Tidal Potomac River (Washington DC metro area), North Andros Island (Bahamas), Belize, Caribbean destinations, Vermont trout waters, Western US rivers, Alaska, Spanish Pyrenees, Italian waters and English chalk streams

Target species: Panfish, bass, bluegills, shad (Potomac), tarpon, peacock bass, bonefish, permit, trout (domestic and international waters)

Equipment discussed: South Bend Black Beauty starter outfit ($40), Orvis Helios rod (first generation), 12-weight outfits for tarpon fishing, level fly line vs weight-forward lines

Key questions answered: • How to pursue FFI master casting instructor certification • What makes a fly fishing club successful in urban areas • How to transition from local fishing to destination travel • When to buy travel insurance and what type to get • How to match expectations with destination and timing

Best for: Beginner to advanced anglers interested in improving casting skills and teaching ability, anyone looking to start or grow a fly fishing club, and anglers planning their first (or next) destination fly fishing trip

**Marvin Cash (00:04):**
Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly, and on this episode I'm joined by my friend Dan Davala from Orvis Adventures. We discuss casting geekery, the Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders, adventure travel and getting called home to the Orvis mothership in Vermont. But before we move on to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please share it with a friend and subscribe in the podcatcher of your choice. If you can leave us a review, we'd really appreciate it. And also a shout out to this episode sponsor. 

This episode is brought to you by our friends at Ascent Fly Fishing. Peter and his team are passionate about our fly fishing community, whether it's helping you be more productive on the water or making sure their team members can meet their daily needs. Let the folks at Ascent use the best science to put together a box of affordable high quality flies for your next outing. Visit them online today at www.ascentflyfishing.com. Use the code ARTICULATE10, all caps, all one word, and the number 10 is a number not spelled out, to get 10% off of your order. Now on to the interview. 

Well, Dan, welcome to The Articulate Fly.

**Dan Davala (01:11):**
Oh, thanks Marvin. It's a pleasure to be here doing this, and I know we've talked about it for a while now, so thank you for making it happen.

**Marvin Cash (01:20):**
Yeah, no, I'm really looking forward to it. And we have a tradition on The Articulate Fly. I always ask all of my guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

**Dan Davala (01:28):**
Earliest fishing memory, that's easy for me. So I don't know exactly my age, but I put it at around five years old. And my grandparents lived up in Pennsylvania. And my grandfather belonged to a gun club because he was a lifetime outdoorsman type of guy. And at around the age of five or so, he took me and my brother to the gun club, which had a lake that had panfish, bass, bluegills, catfish. 

And we went out on just a little dock and basically with more or less cane poles, six pound test and worms and bobbers. And I still remember to this day being enamored with what happened when we dipped that bobber in the water and something on the other side grabbed it. And I've been fixated and hooked on it ever since. So yeah, that goes back to being about five years old in Pennsylvania with my grandfather.

**Marvin Cash (02:22):**
Yeah, very cool. When did you get pulled to the dark side of fly fishing?

**Dan Davala (02:27):**
Well, this goes back to, I remember, fast forward a few years when I was about nine years old. My dad wasn't much of an angler, but he would take me fishing, which I still appreciate. And he had my brother and I out at Burke Lake in Virginia. We were in one of the little rental john boats and we came around the corner into a cove and there was a guy fly fishing from a canoe just right along the weed bed and making beautiful casts and catching the same fish I was fishing for, bluegills and bass. 

And I remember seeing it and just being like, wow, what's that? And actually, a funny thing is my brother tried to imitate the motion he saw the guy doing. Of course, we had our little hardware store special Shakespeare spinning rods with worms, bobbers, sinkers and everything else. So he starts trying to make this fly cast with all of that hardware on there. My dad freaked out, started kind of raising the voice a little like dads do and saying, stop that. That guy has special tackle, and it takes years and years of practice to do that. And instantly I was like challenge accepted. 

I saw it as something next level and that piqued my interest. So then it wasn't until I was about 14 years old and was earning money of my own mowing grass and all that stuff around the neighborhood that I saved up $40 and bought a South Bend black beauty from Sports Authority. The whole setup was about 40 bucks and complete with a level fly line, no weight forward, anything that was like a $6 fly line. And that's what I started on. And that was, oh, so I was 14. So that was almost 30 years ago. Hard to believe.

**Marvin Cash (04:12):**
Yeah, very neat. And who are some of the folks that mentored you on your fly fishing journey?

**Dan Davala (04:18):**
Actually, I didn't know anybody who fly fished at all. And so when I started, I had that memory in place from the Burke Lake incident when I saw a guy doing it. And I'd seen it here and there. Of course, this was long before all of the YouTube and all that other stuff. So occasionally I would see some fly fishing on the Saturday morning fishing shows on ESPN, particularly Walker Cay Chronicles. And I remember watching occasionally they would do some fly fishing on that. And that's where I first saw saltwater fly fishing. 

So anyhow, I would see the cast and then basically go out to, I couldn't just fish anytime I wanted to at that age. So I would just go down to the playground in my neighborhood and practice my casting. And so I actually, I will credit Flip Pallot with, who I would say taught... Well, that's where I learned to double haul from, but that's because I just saw him doing it on Walker Cay Chronicles.

**Marvin Cash (05:19):**
Yeah, that's really cool. And I know we first met, it's been a few years ago at the Virginia Fly Fishing and Wine Festival back when it was in Waynesboro and you were teaching casting classes. What was it that drew you to casting? Because that's, I guess, a little unusual, particularly at that age, to kind of drill into casting that much.

**Dan Davala (05:37):**
As far as you mean when I got into it, when I was like 14?

**Marvin Cash (05:40):**
Yeah, like in, and down the road too, as you were older, that kind of made you want to teach it and really kind of become a propeller head of casting, right?

**Dan Davala (05:50):**
Sure, sure, all right. So going back to the time when I picked it up, it was just a nice, it was a fun challenge and I was enamored with the, with the plastic string flying through the air really, I mean for lack of a better term. And for whatever reason, lacking any instruction or tutelage or whatever, not knowing anybody who really did it, me and a couple of buddies, a couple of high school friends were the ones that got into it. And so for whatever reason, I wasn't exposed to a lot of fly fishing and it just sort of came naturally. I mean, I'm thankful for that. It's a gift. 

It wasn't actually until, well, with the exception of, I spent a lot of years as a mechanic and the guys in the shop would know that I fly fished and occasionally somebody would show some interest and I'd take them out, show them how to cast a little bit. But it wasn't until I started working for Orvis in 2008, and I'll never forget it. I took somebody outside to try the first generation of Helios rod was brand new at the time, and there was a promotion going on, and I was like a week into the job. And the promotion was cast a Helios rod, get a Helios hat, right? 

So I'm like all over this. I'm out in the parking lot with a $800 fly rod, which to that point, I had barely ever even held a rod like that. And I took a guy outside to just basically for him to win a hat by practicing or trying the rod. And that gentleman actually went to make his first cast, wound up like he was going to pitch a baseball and hit the rod on the pavement behind him. And I actually realized right then and there that number one, I didn't know that that could happen. And number two, I didn't know what to say. 

I mean, I could cast a fly rod nicely and I knew the results sort of spoke for themselves. But I realized right then and there that I didn't know how to explain it. So that made me very interested in finding whatever resources existed and whatever way I could to learn how to articulate the cast, to be able to explain it. And that started my journey into pursuing the FFF certification.

**Marvin Cash (08:20):**
Yeah, I mean, I know you're a master casting instructor. What was that journey like for you?

**Dan Davala (08:26):**
Well, it was rewarding, and it was a journey, the right word for it, really. I know people have a lot of different opinions about certifications, regardless of what they're for. When I was a mechanic, I pursued GM certifications and also the ASE, Automotive Service Excellence, certifications, because every garage I knew that was reputable had the sign out front that had the ASE gear on it. So to me, certifications for something you do professionally was a normal idea. 

It was really a journey in that I think I sort of set out with maybe the right mindset, which was I can cast a fly rod pretty decently, but I have no idea how this works. And so I think that for me, coming at it with a recognition of my own inadequacy was maybe the best thing possible because I really was seeking to learn. Rather than, and I'll just say this as a comparison, rather than coming in being like, yeah, I can throw a fly rod 80 plus feet. And I'm pretty good. And I've caught this and I've done that. And I can make my fly land in a target 50 feet away. It wasn't about the actual casting. For me, I was like, I was a sponge and wanted to learn from people who have put a lot of time and years in before me, learn how to teach it. And that to me is what the casting instructor certification is really all about and should be all about. So that just, that's just a sort of segue into the topic. What would you like to know more about the actual journey itself?

**Marvin Cash (10:12):**
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of interesting. I guess one is kind of what surprised you the most, because, I mean, that MCI process, if you're diligent and you have decent hand eye coordination, you can become a certified instructor. But that MCI journey takes a long time. And I'm really curious to hear about what surprised you the most about that process.

**Dan Davala (10:35):**
Sure, yeah. Well, one of the things, and back to the instructing part of it, is at that level, and really even at the casting instructor level as things have changed and evolved, but at the master level, I can't stress enough that it really is about instructing. And even if you can ace every single casting task that you're asked to do, because that's part of it, you have to be able to explain and demonstrate certain casts and be proficient at a pretty high level. But even if you can do all of that, that's only part of the test. 

Arguably, an equally or more important part of the test is being able to put these things in terms of how do you teach this stuff? And it really can't come from a hypothetical, like if I'm going to teach this, this is how I think I would do it. You may make it pretty far in the test that way, but you're probably not going to pass because at that level, it really has to come from experience, from teaching. 

And thankfully for me, I got a lot of that because I worked at an Orvis store in a busy population center for a long time. And that made me, that exposed me to a lot of different casters of a lot of different levels and gave me opportunities to teach, whether it was for beginning classes or lessons one-on-one or even just pointers I could give observing somebody cast when they were trying out rods. 

So in the full disclosure of things, my first attempt at the master certification, I failed. Well, failed is maybe a strong word. I don't think you fail for trying, but I did not pass. And it came down to a few things, a couple of casting tasks that I didn't nail cleanly. But also, actually, during the process of what's considered the oral examination, where you've got several people asking you questions about teaching, there were scenarios they brought up that I actually just hadn't thought through or hadn't done yet. And I could tell right away that they had. 

So I was reaching for answers, and it made me actually just want to dig in more. I realized it was one of the more positive experiences I could have had to not pass that first time and kind of made me dig in all the more.

**Marvin Cash (13:06):**
Yeah, it's really interesting too, because people that are successful in that program, that's generally, I think, the philosophy that they take. Can you share some of the folks that mentored you on that journey, maybe what they taught you or what you took away from spending time with them?

**Dan Davala (13:20):**
Sure. Yeah, I will. Actually if I first had anybody in the program that I drew a lot from and learned from their experience was Jim Valle who is a master instructor who is in the New Jersey region and he was one of my first testers, like as far as when I first took the casting instructor certification. And I actually passed that the first time. 

Usually though, after a test, and I've had the pleasure of giving tests since, but after a test, usually is the opportunity for the folks giving the exam to share some feedback and say, hey, I noticed this and I noticed that, and help you sort of take that next step and take things to the next level, even if you pass. And I'll never forget Jim Valle pointing out a little dip, a little sag in my loop in my backcast. 

And what stuck out to me was not that he pointed it out, but that he stepped up and duplicated it and showed me what mine looked like and made it happen himself and then showed me what the fix was. And then in a couple of whacks, I had it ironed out and gave me something to take away and to practice more. And so that to me was a good experience because I thought, wow, that's really cool. Like I can demonstrate some faults and make some things happen, like tailing loops and stuff like that, on demand. And that's part of it. But that was really cool for somebody to like see something, duplicate it like on the first try, and then show the fix. And I was like, man, I want to do more of that. And that just kind of spurred me on. 

And then as I didn't really have other certified instructors in my area that I could draw from, but I did very early in my process of pursuing a master certification, became acquainted with a very good friend, John Bilotta, who reached out to me because he knew that I was pursuing it. And he was in the area and he said, hey, I'm doing that too. Why don't we pair up and study together and practice together and all of that? 

And that became, that was the beginning of a hopefully lifelong relationship that we have. And we've done a lot together, teaching together, traveling together, hosting trips together. So anyhow, shout out to John Bilotta, because it was really the two of us that were able to help each other along the path. And yeah, that was huge. 

One more before we leave the topic. When I then did test the first time in Montana, and John did too, and both of us didn't pass the first time, there were a few testers that I had there. Bruce Williams was one of them. Steve Holland and Chase Jablonski, those guys administered the test. And after not passing, Steve Holland stepped aside with me and said, Hey, do you want to go through some of this stuff and spent a good hour, hour and a half walking me through some of the things that I struggled with. And to this day, I still use things that I learned in that session when I teach casts and casting. So I've had good exposure to good people along the way.

**Marvin Cash (16:56):**
Yeah, and I think there are a lot of people in the casting program at FFI that are like that, that some of the people that don't pass a test, have some of their most positive experiences in those kind of debriefs.

**Dan Davala (17:10):**
Yeah, it's hard because you put so much into it, so much time, so much energy, so much emotion. And it's, let's face it, it's difficult for anybody to not achieve a goal. But that's part of, that's why, again, back to the, you brought it up as a journey. That's why you have to look at it that way, that if you get to that place and you don't pass the first time and then you sort of throw down your rod and go home, then maybe you were after the wrong thing at the wrong time, or maybe for the wrong reasons. 

But if that becomes a motivating, just a step on the journey and after the initial disappointment of not passing, if you then like regroup and go, okay, all right, I've just learned a ton in this process. And now I'm going to go and come back, come back even more ready. And that's what John and I did. And both of us were able to pass our next time. But I think it was close to two years later. I mean, and that's not a guideline. It was just, it was about that amount of time, about a year and a half or so that I think that we put in before we were like ready to go again.

**Marvin Cash (18:30):**
Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, that MCI test is very grueling from a commitment perspective. Do you have some tips you can give folks that might be thinking about getting on that path? Things that you did or things that you learned along the way that will help people be more successful?

**Dan Davala (18:46):**
Definitely. One thing for sure is if you do have available anywhere near you, even if it's a few hundred miles away, we all know we drive that far to go fishing. So if you can find somebody in the FFI that is a master instructor that has themselves out there as willing to mentor, you can find that on the website. But that is huge. If you can get with somebody who's walked the path, who's walked the journey, then that I think is probably one of the most invaluable things that you can do. 

And because somebody like that, nobody in the program that I know of wants people to be unsuccessful. That said, oftentimes, if you're able to pair up with somebody, a mentor, or at least somebody who's on the journey as well, they're going to hopefully tell you, I don't think you're ready. And that's important feedback because, let's face it, a lot of the first time failures maybe wouldn't happen if somebody were able to say, hey, you know what, I think you're great on these things, but I think you need some work on these, and to do it in a mentoring way, I think will help people maybe not have to take two shots at it. Not that there's anything wrong with that. 

But another thing, and I learned this my first attempt, when I did a lot of practicing, and I would regularly go and set up my course and do the casts and all of that stuff, what I found out, or what I realized I did, which was to my detriment, was I would oftentimes pick two or three of the tasks and practice them. And so I would pick two or three tasks and I would practice them until I was just nailing them every single time. And what I didn't realize is in doing so, I might take a few times just to warm up. And I didn't realize that I wasn't thinking of it that way. 

So even though I would get each task to the point where I could do them with my eyes closed, when you go to test, it needs to be, as often happens when you're teaching groups or things like that, when you need to demonstrate something, you need to stick it the first time. You can't really be out there trying to like explain something, say something, and then take you five or six times to demonstrate it. I mean, nobody's perfect, but all I'm saying is like that is what hopefully somebody is expecting if they're coming to somebody for a lesson. Like, oh, this person knows how to do it. 

So what I learned is a better way to practice, at least as you're leading up to the test, is really to go through the whole thing from start to finish. When you go out to practice, practice the whole test from start to finish. I don't mean all the time, every day, all day. I mean though, make sure you run through it. And either with a mentor or somebody you're practicing with, have somebody score it. And then you'll know right away, you know what, I can do these aerial mends, for instance, but it takes me five or six times to start to nail them. And that'll fly on the practice field, but it's not going to fly during the test day. 

And it would be a shame for somebody to go through all the process, get to that testing point, deal with all the nerves and everything that go into that, but don't realize that it's been taking four or five tries to start sticking the tasks every time and have that happen on the test. And that happened to me in Montana on my first one. That's why I know that the hard way.

**Marvin Cash (22:31):**
Well, that's really helpful. And some of the listeners know, but some may not that you're one of the original founders of the Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders. Can you tell us a little bit about the club? I know you don't live in the DC area anymore, but I know you still keep up with those guys.

**Dan Davala (22:47):**
Yeah, as a matter of fact, I mean, some of my daily reading that I do in the morning, today is no exception, as I still follow the posts on the forum. That still keeps me connected with the club and with back home. Yeah, very in a nutshell. I was born and raised in the Washington, D.C. area and in northern Virginia, Fairfax, actually. I realized, and it wasn't until I was working at the Orvis store, I realized right away that while we had in the area a good number of Trout Unlimited groups, which by default become just kind of fly fishing clubs, but Trout Unlimited's focus and mission really is on the conservation side and the water quality and clean cold water. 

So the club is a part of that but I realized right away that most of the folks that I talked to that were coming into the store that were, we would usually say something to the effect of, I'd ask them where you've been fishing or have you been out lately or whatever and they'd all say oh man not as much as I'd like to. And then as I'd get a little further and ask them where they like to fish and things like that, it was always a number of trout streams that if you're in the D.C. area are a good hour plus and then going on several hours away. 

So it started to resonate with me that like a lot of people wanted to fish more than they were fishing. That's all of us. And also one of the reasons why they weren't fishing as much is because fishing to them in many cases meant a commitment of a full day or a full weekend. And not everybody has that with all their obligations. 

So I just realized right away, I was like, how come people aren't fishing like in the Potomac? It's, I can almost see it from the shop. It's like a few minutes away. And the more I talked to people about it, the more I realized that people saw it as like a seasonal thing, maybe for shad in the springtime or something like that, but just really weren't digging into it with their fly rods. And that just became like my mission field. Like we need to shine a light on this. 

And I've got all these people that are coming in the shop that want to fish more than they are. And perhaps the key is getting them connected with each other and getting them connected with their local water. So that was about a year into me working in the Orvis store. And in 2009, I say we is really an idea between a few people that we were talking about. I called a meeting together and nine people came out to it. And that was the beginning of Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders. 

Which now is over 10 years old. I came into town for the 10-year anniversary. I ran it for about, not quite seven, about six years, and then handed it off to some of the officers who carried it with me. Now it's in its 11th year, and I would say flourishing. So the simple fact is the strength of it was in tying the community together and giving the community something to focus on, learn about and relate on, and actually unlocking more fishing opportunities than people realized they had in their own backyard.

**Marvin Cash (26:01):**
Yeah, that's really interesting too, because, I mean, they're great clubs, but, you know, clubs kind of with all the competing technology and kind of some generational shifts in the sport, a lot of clubs seem to struggle. Can you elaborate a little bit more on kind of the TPFR model and what you think makes it so successful?

**Dan Davala (26:20):**
Sure, yeah. I think one of the things, and this is honestly going to sound dated now, but at the time, 10 years ago, 11 years ago, there was still a lot of great information sharing happening on forums. And forums were where people would get together in a like-minded community and share information, ask questions. I got a lot of information out of forums. And one of the things that I realized we were lacking in our area was that. So like some of the forums that I might actually want to glean information from were more national based or based in another region. 

And so I was like, we need a forum. And I'm not a super tech savvy person and we had zero money. So we started a Google group. And that really became and I think still is the lifeblood of the club because it has become the online source where somebody, and just today, and it makes my heart glad every time I see this. But just today, I saw this morning a post from a new member who said, I moved here a year ago and I've just gotten, just found this club. And they had some questions about fishing around Fletcher's Boathouse and all that. 

And it just makes me so thankful that the club is continuing on in that way because people got right to that person and answered the questions, gave them some resources, invited them out to Beer Tie, which we can talk more about. But that method of tying the club together in an online way and in a way that's more than a monthly meeting, I think was key to it and still is.

**Marvin Cash (28:09):**
Yeah, and speaking of other than the monthly meeting, I know you guys are very outing driven, but you were one of the kind of early clubs to kind of roll the beer tie concept out. I can remember seven or eight years ago. I mean, talk to me a little bit about, now they're everywhere. Right. But eight or nine years ago, that certainly wasn't the case.

**Dan Davala (28:30):**
Yeah, exactly. And I won't make any claims to where we fell in line with being some of the first folks to do it. The idea really came from Dalton Terrell, who served as the president after I had moved and was an officer with the club since we appointed officers. So he was the one who very early, I mean, second meeting of the club, which we had at a library in Arlington, he proposed the idea because where he went to college, a few buddies, and I mean, we're talking like maybe a dozen people that were into fly fishing there, did a thing that they just called beer tie. They called it Beer Tie, and it was a little local bar, and they got together in the back room, like a little party room area, and tied flies. 

Drank beer and it was like ding ding ding brilliant, this is perfect. I mean first of all we all know how well beer and fly fishing go together, like chocolate and peanut butter. So that's a no-brainer but the concept of doing something, an event that you can draw people together because fly fishing in general is a little bit of an isolated sport. I mean you can't have 30 people converge on one spot on the river and fish together and drink beer together. But when you bring in the element of fly tying, then you can do something, a gathering on an evening. 

And so that came together. And so we decided pretty early on that that would be our monthly meeting instead of having a monthly meeting with a speaker. And we did a couple of meetings at that library just to kind of get off the ground. And then Beer Tie was launched. And very first Beer Tie I think that we had close to 60 people at, which was a very good turnout for something that nobody knew what to expect. And that just continues to be the monthly gathering. It's grown to the point where during the winter months especially, you could have over 100 folks at a Beer Tie. 

And some people go and just hang out and drink beer and talk fishing, other people actually go to tie very seriously and other people go to teach and learn from each other tying. So I'm glad to see that carry on.

**Marvin Cash (30:57):**
Yeah, very neat. And you've mentioned a couple times earlier in the interview that you were working at the Orvis store in Arlington. Was that your first job in the fishing industry?

**Dan Davala (31:02):**
Yep, that was it. And actually that stems from just a little bit of backstory to that. I was, as I mentioned earlier, I was a mechanic and that was my trade and that was my chosen trade. Like I had pursued it, gotten educated and invested heavily in tools as you can imagine, everything else. So that was what I was planning on doing. And it was when I was about 30 or right around the age of 30, I'm 42 now for reference. Right around the age of 30 I had this just sort of epiphany that like, I'm not really passionate about cars and working on them. 

Like I was good at it, but it didn't, I knew what I was passionate about. My top drawer of my toolbox was full of fishing magazines and catalogs and all that stuff. And I really enjoyed whenever somebody expressed an interest in it and I could show them something. 

So I was, I won't get all, I won't turn it into a sermon, but I do go to church and I was at a small group that was an offshoot from our church there in Reston. And there was actually a member of that small group whose passion was horses. And they were not working with horses, they were working at Starbucks and were struggling with not doing something that they really felt like they were wired for. 

And I just gave this great advice, like, well, why don't you seek to do what you enjoy, that you're wired to do. That's what, that's a gift, like pursue that, go work with horses. And I actually even pulled a verse out of Ecclesiastes and was like, you're supposed to find satisfaction in your labor because that's what you got. And it was like a two by four in the face for me. Like I realized I was saying it to this person, but it was for me as well. 

And really at that moment, it shifted my entire focus on what I'm doing. I have the most supportive and wonderful wife in the world, my best friend in the world, Melody. And she knew right away, like, yeah, you need to pursue something in fly fishing. 

And so being in the DC area, it's kind of like, all right, cool. I want a fly fishing job. What does that look like? Well, I already knew Orvis and I was already a customer of Orvis. So I thought, well, I'll check there. And right at that very moment in time, the job for a fishing manager at the Arlington, Virginia store was open and I pursued that and got it. And that was my entry into the fly fishing world as far as a career path. And that was 12 years ago and still working with Orvis now.

**Marvin Cash (33:35):**
Yeah, that's a really neat story. And when did you get the travel bug?

**Dan Davala (33:40):**
Well, so that's interesting. I've always enjoyed traveling. My wife and I both, aside from fishing travel, we both really enjoyed traveling. And so while other friends and family members, if they would save some money or whatever, they would usually hang on to it for typical things like a house or a car or whatever. Melody and I, if we got our hands on some money or if we saved some money, we spent it traveling. We just enjoyed, whether it was domestic or international travel, we just enjoyed the, I don't know, the adventure of it all. 

I mean, travel puts you in wonderful places, but also it tests you. It tests you in terms of your adaptability and ability to deviate from the plan. And we just really thrived in that and enjoyed it. And so I was already, I would say, into traveling and already putting my money where my mouth is, as in I spend my own money on traveling. 

So it became a natural progression once I mixed that with the fly fishing travel to, I was pretty good at encouraging people to take a trip and pursue their dream, their interests and their challenges. Because that's what I myself had been doing, fishing or otherwise. So, yeah, I don't know where it started, but it started, I certainly believe that it started with my wife once we had gotten together. And yeah, that's been a part of our lives ever since.

**Marvin Cash (35:35):**
Are there any destinations that stick out in your mind more than any others?

**Dan Davala (35:41):**
Well, not a particular destination, but I do very much love and I spend a lot of my focus here at work on tropical destinations. And don't get me wrong, I love many other places that I've been and there are other places that I still want to go. I've done Western trips and Alaska trips and Canada and things like that. But there's something to the simplicity of the tropical environment. 

I mean, if I were given five minutes, 10 minutes, I could probably pack for a tropical trip and be gone for weeks because you don't need much. And who doesn't love the weather at the, on the islands and whatnot, too. So I just, I love the simple vibe that I get when I travel to Caribbean, Bahamas, places like that. 

And we, back to family travels, we spent, and we had a very great experience in 2012, we spent an entire month on North Andros. And I don't have that kind of vacation time. We certainly took a significant hit to do it. But we also were very blessed by some folks that I had met through my job at Orvis who had a villa that they let us borrow. So that took that out of it. 

And we went to Andros with two young children and spent a month there. And I think that really burned into me a love for the island and kind of the small town nature and culture that these islands have. And I don't know, I've been enamored ever since, and I think it's fitting that a lot of my focus goes into tropical destinations.

**Marvin Cash (37:31):**
Yeah, that's really neat. Can you tell us a little bit about how you lived the dream and got called up to the mothership in Vermont?

**Dan Davala (37:38):**
Yeah, so I was actually very content and happy as a fishing manager at the Arlington, Virginia store. That's what I was doing. And I had been doing that for a little more than seven years before I made the switch. And then over the course of that time, I had built into my job there putting together trips, travel trips, hosted trips, and promoting trips also that Orvis was featuring. 

So it had connected me to the resource already. We have a tremendous network of what we call Orvis endorsed lodges, guides, outfitters. So that is just, that helps sort through all of the many options. There's many wonderful options out there, but those Orvis endorsed options are ones that have been vetted by Orvis and deliver the level of customer service, experience, all of that, that we expect. 

And so it became a great network to be involved with. And I started putting together trips to Orvis endorsed destinations based on my own customer base interest. So I had the exposure to a lot of traveling anglers through the shop that I got to know very well, became good friends with. And so it was easy for me to put together and say, look, where do we want to go? I'll put it together and make all the arrangements. 

And I started doing that with our lodge partners and with the folks on the Orvis travel team up here. And so in the process of doing so, I didn't actually think that I was creating the next step in the journey. You seldom know that you're doing that when you're just walking a step at a time. But as it turned out, I was gaining a lot of experience leading groups, organizing trips, dealing with not only out of my own experiences, but also in traveling with groups. 

A lot of things can happen. And handling and adapting to those situations, I just gained a lot of experience that then when a job opening became available, or when I heard hints of a job opening becoming available, even though I was content and happy doing what I was doing, and I probably intended to stick around doing that for a few more years, at least the timing, like a lot of things, the timing was right to start to consider, well, maybe, maybe this is a good direction. Maybe this is a good change. 

And we had small kids and an opportunity presented itself, or an opening became available on the Orvis adventures or Orvis travel team, which is a small team. So there's not many openings on it. And I just have to say that was really a matter of the timing that I felt led to pursue that. And for many reasons, but one of them being that gave us an opportunity to move our family to the outdoors, basically. And I would still be moving forward and pursuing the career with Orvis. 

So it was like, I'm thankful that that became available when it did. I wasn't looking for it or seeking it, but I pursued it. And lo and behold, with my travel experience and my background with the organizing of trips and doing host travel and things like that, I didn't realize I had created a good resume for it. So, yep, I took that job and moved the family north up to Vermont, and that was in 2015.

**Marvin Cash (41:03):**
Yeah, it's interesting too, because, I mean, Northern Virginia is a pretty urban place. What's been the biggest surprise moving from Northern Virginia up to Vermont?

**Dan Davala (41:12):**
Well, it's funny. A couple of surprises initially, and maybe they weren't surprises, but I didn't know how to handle them, was the lack of 24-hour availability of everything. And that goes from carryout to even just early on when we first moved up, we had a situation where one of my kids presented with an allergy we didn't know that he had. And we had to go to the hospital up here, and we had to get a prescription. And then when we went to fill a prescription, the pharmacy was closed. 

And we were like, wait, how is a pharmacy closed? Like, I'm from the land of 24-hour pharmacies and stuff like that. So that was one of those kind of reality checks where we had not yet adapted to the pace of things, even though we had other experiences from travel adapting to other countries and environments and things. But that was when you factor your kid is sick into it and you're like, wait a minute. We can't fill this prescription. Like how, what do people do? So that was an early, within a few weeks of moving up here, like a first, like, whoa. 

But because I've done so much fishing in small, I mean, in rural areas and been done a good amount of travel to areas with that are much less populated than Northern Virginia. I wasn't shocked by or surprised by the pace of things. I just had to adapt to maybe kind of planning for when things are open and how to get the essentials that you need. That didn't take that long. Actually, the hardest thing was adapting to an office environment, which I never saw myself stepping into.

**Marvin Cash (42:57):**
Yeah, that's funny. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you do at headquarters?

**Dan Davala (43:02):**
Yeah, sure. So thankfully, at least, I don't know because I've never worked in any other office, but I would have to say that this must rank one of the cooler offices that you could work in. Not only is it set in a beautiful area, I'm sitting here right now looking out the window, there's mountains all around. So it helps to be sort of immersed in the outdoors, even in an office environment. 

What I do on a regular basis here, because I know some people might think that my job just means that I travel to fishing destinations all the time. And you know what, honestly, if that was the case, I probably wouldn't have taken the job because I have a family that I love and want to be around. I spend a large part of my time at the home office of Orvis organizing a lot of the trips that you see online that we feature that are like pre-planned with preset dates and pricing and all of that stuff and are hosted. And a lot of planning goes into those. And I generally am setting those up one, two years in advance. So I'm planning 2023 trips now, actually. 

So that becomes a lot of my work is preparing those trips. And that's all of the details that have to go into that. Then probably one of the more enjoyable aspects of my job is I work on an everyday basis with our Orvis customers who call us for our recommendations on where to go. And a lot of people out there have been doing it so long that they don't really, they just know where they want to go. But we regularly talk with folks who their first call is to us because they're saying, I've done some saltwater fishing. I've been to Belize a few times. I've really wanted to try Bahamas, and then from there our conversation gets going. 

And so I spend almost, I would say the majority of every day actually talking with people about fly fishing, about where they want to go, what their goals are, who's traveling with them, what those folks are into. And I get to be an impartial person with experience at a lot of these places, and I can help them kind of cut through the options and pick. My goal really is to help them pick the very best fit for them, for their goals and for their time period that they want to fish and for the other people they have traveling with them. So, more or less a specialized travel agent, if you will, that focuses on the specialty world of fly fishing travel.

**Marvin Cash (45:33):**
And it's interesting, right? Cause there are probably what four or five big booking agents in the sport. Can you tell me a little bit about what makes Orvis different from some of your competitors?

**Dan Davala (45:43):**
Sure. One thing is that because we do so many things other than travel, we generally have a very loyal customer base. And by that, I mean, folks that are traveling with Orvis have usually been Orvis customers in one form or another for a long time. Now that's different. I mean, we've certainly worked with folks that have just found us. And that's great too. But a lot of times, one of my favorite things to hear is when somebody goes, I didn't realize you guys did travel, because they're already familiar with Orvis brand. Maybe they have some rods or whatever, they know Orvis. 

But when they find out that we do this also, and not only that we do this, a big differentiator for us is the is the Orvis endorsed network. And like I mentioned earlier, we don't actually promote trips to any place that we don't personally know. I haven't been to every single place, but certainly somebody on my team has. We don't promote trips and we don't endorse places that we don't know and have a good relationship with personally and that we don't trust to uphold the same standards and level of customer service that we expect of ourselves and that we try to uphold. 

And so a lot of times people think that like that Orvis endorsed places must be just the fanciest or the most expensive. And that's not the case at all, actually. We have places everywhere at all price points. And we have everything from individual guides that are endorsed to full on lodges. But what makes it, I would say, probably the most important factor is the people that run those businesses and the guides themselves and the people. I mean, that's what this is all about, really. 

And granted, we want a good fishery and we want the facilities to be good. But everything really comes down to the relationships that we have with the lodges, the guides, the people on the ground. And that's the confidence that we have connecting our customers to those places. And thankfully, that's the confidence that our customers have in us because they know that we're not going to just send them somewhere because we've heard it's great or just send them somewhere because it's the latest thing. 

It's the places that we partner with and the places that we connect our customers to, our places that we have longstanding relationships with and trust implicitly. So I would say that that's a major, major difference. And then the other is that because we also manufacture some of the best gear in the business, we have that ability also to kind of like a one-stop shop. 

If somebody wants to travel and book a trip to go tarpon fishing, we can also help them get connected to one of our shops, either dealers or company-owned stores. And we can get the 12-weight outfit in their hands, and we can get them everything they need from the pack to pack it all into the buff that they put on the boat. And we've got it sort of all for them. 

So if people know us and know Orvis, then they're pleasantly surprised that they can work with us from the planning of the trip to the day they're going on it. And then also we care about the folks that we work with and we have great relationships with them. So I often have conversations with folks who aren't even planning a trip, but they're just checking in. And I just had one of the folks I've traveled with send me a picture of a 30 inch rainbow that they got in Alaska last September just to check in and say, hey, I don't know if I sent you this. And I love that because I wouldn't want to do this job if I didn't stay connected with the people.

**Marvin Cash (49:29):**
Yeah, that's really neat. And generally, I think for most anglers, they don't start out as destination angling travelers. So when you kind of start the beginning of that process and you're like, hey, I fished for a while, you know, I want to try something different and kind of look at destination travel, what suggestions do you have for people to help them kind of think through and frame that process?

**Dan Davala (49:53):**
Absolutely. No, that's a great point. And there's a lot of examples out there, but I can think of one who's a very good friend of mine named Chris, who he and his wife took Fly Fishing 101, just basically the intro course at my store. Man, must have been now probably eight years ago or so, somewhere between six and eight years ago. And that was just the first step in the door of fly fishing. 

And from there, that grew into doing some local things with Tidal Potomac Fly Rodders to fishing more, a little bit more further out with guides and whatnot, but still drivable to traveling to Belize with me, then traveling all over the world, actually, still with Orvis Travel. And I have the pleasure of working with him on a lot of his plans, and he works with the rest of our team, too. 

And now this person I'm thinking of actually owns an offshore operation that we're working on getting in the endorsement program. So that's an example of maybe an extreme one, but where somebody who really got their start fly fishing with Orvis has been able to pursue that all the way around the world and now be in the business themselves. And I mean, what better story than that, really, to show you the breadth of what we do at Orvis.

**Marvin Cash (51:10):**
Yeah, that's pretty neat. Do you have any suggestions for kind of starter trips, for people that want to dip their toe into fly fishing travel?

**Dan Davala (51:16):**
Sure. I mean, as far as it being starter trips really that can take on a lot of different forms. If somebody has never fished with a guide, I would say find a guide that guides on water that you can drive to. So, not to be plugging individual guys, but when I was in Virginia, I would send a lot of people down to fish with Matt Miles who would fish the James River. I'd send people down to Mossy Creek Fly Shop, and they'd fish the Spring Creek down there near Harrisonburg. 

That's just a few, and there were a lot of guides in the area that I was able to connect people to. So I'd say that that's a really good foot in the door because sometimes you almost skip a step if you take your first trip, and the first time you ever fish with a guide is after you've traveled thousands of miles to a destination. And I think you can get some great experience fishing out of a drift boat, fishing with a guide, getting to know what that's like by doing that in a drivable range. 

From there, it really just depends upon where your interest goes. If it's trout fishing, then I think it's nice when you can go, if you're going to take a trip somewhere and you're going to fly somewhere, I think it's a reasonable thing to do to book a few days at a lodge because, I mean, there's a lot of folks out there, trust me, and I'm one of them who likes to put together the DIY thing and go and stay at a hotel here and eat at this place and do all the research online. And you know what, that's awesome. And I enjoy that. 

But a lot of folks that don't have the time to try to connect all those dots, that's part of what these lodges and outfitters do for you. Then it becomes, yeah, fly into this airport and then either rent a car or we can shuttle you to the lodge where you get checked in. Your meals are part of it. We have great guides. We already know where we're going to fish you based on the conditions and everything else like that. We've got gear if you need it. 

So picking a destination, whether that's a trout fishing place out in the West or whether it's something like a saltwater destination like Belize, we have a lot of great options that we work with at all price points. So it doesn't have to be like some huge expensive thing. I don't think a lot of these trips cost more than just a general travel trip. There are people that travel for other reasons other than fishing. And travel has a cost involved. 

And so I think sometimes people think a fishing trip is going to be out of their price bracket. But I think they usually are surprised that there are a lot of options internationally and domestically where you could get three or four days of fishing. Your lodging is all part of it. Your food is all part of it. When you add it all up, it's a lot of what you would pay anyway if you strung it all together yourself. So, yeah.

**Marvin Cash (54:13):**
Yeah, and I'm sure you've seen lots of people make lots of mistakes on the travel side, and obviously you try to stop them from doing that. But what's the biggest mistake that you see traveling anglers make either in the planning side or on the execution side once they're wherever they wanted to go?

**Dan Davala (54:32):**
Well, a lot of things come down to expectations. And of course, a lot of life is expectations. Certainly a lot of fishing is expectations. We try to really help people match their expectations with the time of year and destination. And sometimes not recommend that somebody go where they're looking at wanting to go if that time period or that destination is not going to align with what they've told us their expectations or their goals are. 

And so sometimes I think that one of the things we try to head off at the pass is make sure that people have the right expectations. That might be about the fishing. That also might be about the accommodations in place. Sometimes people are used to traveling with a certain level of luxury, and that's not the case in all of these fishing destinations. So what is very nice as far as accommodations go on an out island in the Bahamas might be very different than what's very nice in a major city anywhere in the world. 

And so that's another thing. We try to make sure from our own experiences that people have a right expectation going in. And we don't want them to know every single thing about every detail about everything they're going to experience because that's part of travel is going somewhere and experiencing it yourself. But we really do a lot of asking questions and listening to folks to really try to dial in what they are actually putting together in their mind as what this trip is going to be like and do our best to match that to the right place and also to advise folks when where they're planning on going isn't going to add up to that. 

But they can look forward to this and this and this, whatever that destination features. So I think that managing expectations is maybe the biggest thing.

**Marvin Cash (56:33):**
Got it. And obviously, we were talking about this a little bit before we started recording. There's also the unexpected, unexpected. And there's travel insurance for that. Do you want to say a little bit about buying travel insurance? What kind to buy? Particularly timely, we were talking about the coronavirus and kind of impacts on travel and whether people were covered or not. And we don't need to go into, I guess, a deep dive into pandemics, but it would be helpful, I think, maybe for folks to kind of generally get a feel for kind of how the travel insurance thing works.

**Dan Davala (57:06):**
Absolutely. First of all, we're big believers in travel insurance, and we recommend it to every traveler on every trip. And sometimes that just sounds rote because it just, well, of course you recommend travel insurance because you're a travel company. That said, though, the current situation is a great example of nobody saw a major outbreak of an unknown virus that is impacting travel and is impacting how countries are allowing people to pass in and out of their borders and all of that. 

So it's an example of where travel insurance really kicks in and not just travel insurance, but what we always recommend is that people consider the strongest protection, which is a travel insurance policy that includes a cancel for any reason clause. And it's only travel policies like that, that as the name implies, allow you to cancel for any reason. And that reason could be you're scared about the latest virus. That's legitimate. 

But from an insurance standpoint, it's not if a country is open to travel, if a lodge is not closed, if airlines are flying there, that's not a good enough reason to cancel the trip and try to redeem some of or any of what you've spent. Now, if you've purchased travel insurance policy that says you can cancel for any reason, well, then all of a sudden that becomes viable, where not only things like the current situation that we're experiencing, but there's a lot of unknowns out there. 

I mean, my wife's grandmother lived to be 103 years old for a long time during that period. We always wanted to be sensitive to being available if we needed to be. And if you're planning a trip six, eight months out or longer, and you think you might need to cancel just in case that person needs you, that's another reason to consider travel insurance that allows you to cancel for any reason. 

So we strongly recommend it. We actually partner with Global Rescue. They do not only the trip travel evacuation, like the emergency evacuation services and also the evacuation services in case of civil unrest and things like that, but they also feature a full suite of travel insurance. And that's our preferred partner that we work with. But there are many providers. 

We just always recommend to every traveler on every trip that they purchase travel insurance with cancel for any reason. That's the strongest coverage, and you usually need to do that within two to three weeks of paying your first deposit. So keep that in mind. It's not just something that travel companies say. It's something that we have a lot of experience working with folks that do have to cancel. And always our first question is, do you have a travel insurance policy? I can tell you it's wonderful when they say yes, and it's a lot harder and more emotional when that's not the case. So definitely put it on your radar and strongly consider it for every trip.

**Marvin Cash (01:00:09):**
Well, that's good advice. And before I let you go this afternoon, do you have any upcoming trips you want to share with our listeners?

**Dan Davala (01:00:18):**
Well, on a personal note, I'm actually laying low a little bit this year. I traveled a lot last year hosting and whatnot. So I'm not doing as much out of the office other than we are working on and exploring some partnerships in some places that we don't have good partnerships right now. So I will be doing a few trips out to parts of Mexico to check out some spots that are reputable and looking to work with us. And so that's on the horizon. 

And we also, on a totally different note though, as far as Orvis goes, we're doing a lot more featuring and this has become pretty exciting stuff. We're doing a lot more featured trips that have incredible fishing, but also focus on the culture of where you're going. And an example of that is we've been doing some very popular trips to Spanish Pyrenees with Savalinas, fly fishing adventures. We've been doing those for years. They've been super popular. 

So now we have moved that into other areas in Europe. We have a great trip featured in Italy. I know that that's one of the hot zones for the current virus. So I know people aren't really thinking that right now. But that is an area where we've developed a really great fishing and cultural trip that combines really the best of both worlds. 

And similarly, we're working on that over in England with some of the most famous chalk streams from the Isaak Walton days. And so it's pretty fun stuff because, like I said earlier, I was into travel before I was focused on fly fishing travel. And I think I'm as much of an angler as the next guy. And I love to travel somewhere with the pursuit of fish in mind, but I think that we miss out on some things when that's the only reason we travel. 

So I'm really excited that we're doing these trips in areas that not only feature some incredible fishing, but also some tremendous history, cultural sites, food, beverage, all of that good stuff. That, to me, makes a really great and well-rounded trip. So you can look for a lot more of that on the horizon with trips that feature as much of a focus on where you are in the world, not just why you're there.

**Marvin Cash (01:02:40):**
Very neat. And before I let you go, can you let folks know your contact information and where they can reach out to you and how they can find out more about Orvis Travel?

**Dan Davala (01:02:49):**
Yeah, for sure. So you can, if you go onto the Orvis website, we have an entire area on the website that is trips and schools. So you can see it right on up there where the same headings where there's fishing and men's and all that other stuff. But we've got a whole trips and schools part. If you click on that, that'll take you into our whole world of what we offer, where we offer it, group trips, specialty schools, everything all around the world. 

And then if you want to chat on the phone about any of it, you can reach me and my team. We have a really easy number. It's 800-547-4322. And you can reach us at OrvisAdventures@orvis.com.

**Marvin Cash (01:03:31):**
Well, that's great. Well, Dan, I really appreciate you taking some time away from the skateboard during lunchtime today to chat with me.

**Dan Davala (01:03:38):**
You bet. I really appreciate it, Marvin. It's great to see you, as always, at the shows and hopefully at the guide rendezvous coming up. That's where we'll see each other next in a few weeks, actually. It's coming right up. But I really appreciate the invitation to do this, and thank you for thinking of me. So I really appreciate it.

**Marvin Cash (01:03:59):**
Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. I owe you a beer in Roanoke.

**Dan Davala (01:04:04):**
Hey, I'll buy you the next round after that.

**Marvin Cash (01:04:07):**
There you go. Thanks again.

**Dan Davala (01:04:09):**
All right, Marvin. See you there. Thank you.

**Marvin Cash (01:04:11):**
Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Again, if you liked it, please share it with a friend and subscribe in the podcast of your choice. And again, a shout out to this episode's sponsor, our friends at Ascent Fly Fishing. Check out their great flies at www.ascentflyfishing.com. And don't forget to use the code ARTICULATE10, all caps, all one word, number 10 is a number, to get 10% off your order. Tight lines, everybody.