S2, Ep 47: Nick Roberts of Bonefish & Tarpon Trust

**Marvin Cash (00:00:04):** Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly, and on this episode I'm joined by my good friend Nick Roberts. Nick is the Director of Marketing and Communications for Bonefish and Tarpon Trust, as well as the editor of the Bonefish and Tarpon Journal. Nick shares his journey to BTT and the great work BTT is doing to conserve the saltwater flat species so many of us love to chase.

But before we move on to our interview, a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, it would be great if you could subscribe and leave us a review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out.

And a shout out to this episode's sponsor. This episode's brought to you by our friends at PostFly. Brian and his team make it easy for you to discover premium quality flies and gear with a box delivered to your doorstep every month. Check them out at www.postflybox.com and subscribe today. Now, on to our interview. So Nick, welcome to The Articulate Fly.

**Nick Roberts (00:01:01):** Thanks Marvin, thanks for having me.

**Marvin Cash (00:01:03):** Yeah, I'm really looking forward to our conversation and we have a tradition on The Articulate Fly. I always ask all of my guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

**Nick Roberts (00:01:13):** I vaguely remember trying to surf fish with bait on family vacations to the North Carolina coast, but I never really had much luck. I didn't know what I was doing and always seemed to lose my cut-up squid and shrimp to small fish and never really caught a game fish doing that.

**Marvin Cash (00:01:30):** Got it. So when did you discover fly fishing?

**Nick Roberts (00:01:34):** So I really got into fly fishing as a freshman at Duke University. I took a great fly fishing and fly tying class for a PE credit there and had a great instructor named Jan Hackett, who also owned an Orvis shop right near campus, which has since closed, unfortunately.

**Marvin Cash (00:01:53):** And kind of fast-forwarding along from your time as a freshman at Duke, who are some of the people that have mentored you on your fly fishing journey?

**Nick Roberts (00:02:01):** So after Duke, I worked for a year at Great Outdoor Provision in Wilmington, North Carolina, and the manager at the time, his name's Tim Glover. He's the first one that kind of showed me the ropes of saltwater fly fishing. I used to redfish in the marsh there around Wilmington and the Intracoastal Waterway, fish inshore for Spanish mackerel and stuff like that. And then I also learned a lot from two Wilmington guide buddies, Captain Will Hoffman and Captain Alan Kane.

**Marvin Cash (00:02:31):** So you went to graduate school down at UNCW and you were working down there at Great Outdoor Provisions. How did you find your way to western North Carolina?

**Nick Roberts (00:02:40):** So after graduation, I moved to Asheville, and I was there for about six years guiding and writing on a freelance basis. So I worked first for Curtis Wright Outfitters, and then later on I worked for Davidson River Outfitters down in Brevard.

**Marvin Cash (00:02:56):** How did you get into the guide game?

**Nick Roberts (00:02:59):** I got into guiding after college because it let me have time to work on my writing. So when I went to graduate school for a master's in creative writing at UNC Wilmington, I kept guiding in the mountains of western North Carolina during the summers. And then after grad school, I moved to the mountains full time. Guiding really gave me the time and flexibility to write on a daily basis. So that's what kind of first got me into the profession.

**Marvin Cash (00:03:24):** Yeah, that's really interesting, because most people are bonkers about guiding and then that's what they do. So it was really kind of to help you with your writing process. But also, it takes a certain type of person to want to be a fishing guide. Kind of what let you know that that would work for you?

**Nick Roberts (00:03:42):** So, of course, I love fly fishing and being on the water. So the opportunity to earn a living doing that was very appealing to me. And then I also really enjoy introducing people to the sport and getting to know people from different walks of life, which when you're a guide, you meet many, many people throughout the year. And a lot of them become friends and you fish with them over the course of different seasons. So I've had the chance to guide anglers from many backgrounds and professions. And I'm friends with lots of them, including yourself. And then still remain in touch with many of the guides that I worked with, too.

**Marvin Cash (00:04:19):** Yeah, Kevin's got a great group of guys in the shop. It's always a great place to stop at any time. Just as a plug for Kevin and Davidson River Outfitters, it's a great shop. It's right on the entrance into Pisgah, and he's got really good folks, he's got great private water and he's got a really good shop. And it's interesting too, right — another question I always ask all of my guide guests is to share their biggest misconception that they think people have about the life of a fishing guide.

**Nick Roberts (00:04:46):** Sure. I think the biggest misconception — I think it's romanticized, and that people think it's kind of a walk in the park. But the best, most successful guides are very detail-oriented, and they work very hard from scouting new water to preparing for trips, tying flies, tying leaders, to putting clients on fish in challenging conditions. And then the life of a guide can also be very unpredictable in that their livelihoods can be impacted by factors well beyond their control, such as droughts, too much rain and snow,

**Marvin Cash (00:05:22):** and of course hurricanes. Yeah, absolutely. I know you guys were lucky at Davidson River, because I don't think people appreciate how long the guide season is in western North Carolina compared to, say, like the Northern Rockies.

**Nick Roberts (00:05:34):** Yeah, so, in western North Carolina, you're guiding from low water conditions often in the summer to high water in the spring. And then throughout the winter, you're guiding as well on some really cold days, but very productive days for bigger fish.

**Marvin Cash (00:05:52):** Absolutely. And so, you're a writer. I don't know if a lot of people know that. But when did you get the writing bug?

**Nick Roberts (00:06:00):** So I've been writing really since I was a kid, so I think I've more or less always had it. I got serious about it late in high school and during college. My parents were both very good writers, so I learned a lot from them and a lot of the great professors I had in college and then grad school after that.

**Marvin Cash (00:06:18):** And do you remember the first piece that you published and got paid for?

**Nick Roberts (00:06:23):** Yeah, I wrote a piece on Chris Craft Boats for Wrightsville Beach Magazine right after college. When I was living in Wilmington, I was about 22.

**Marvin Cash (00:06:33):** Very neat. And it's interesting. I always like to ask my writers to kind of share where they get their writing ideas.

**Nick Roberts (00:06:43):** Yeah, so I've been fortunate, working as a guide and freelance writer in Asheville and then in my subsequent work with Bonefish & Tarpon Trust, to travel to a lot of different destinations. So that's inspired many of the articles I've written. I think I enjoy not so much writing like the how-to articles as I do writing about what makes each of those fisheries unique and special and then any related conservation issues. And I also really like telling the stories of the people whose livelihoods depend on the fisheries, on the health of the fisheries — from the guides to lodge staff and lodge owners.

**Marvin Cash (00:07:24):** Got it. And how do you like to write? Do you set aside a time every day to write or do you kind of bunch time together between other things that are going on?

**Nick Roberts (00:07:35):** Yeah, I usually write early in the day, kind of before the work day starts, my day job, and then I write lots of different drafts. That's usually the process. Start with the general ideas and then kind of shape it and polish it through the process of drafting.

**Marvin Cash (00:07:53):** And when you write early in the day, how much do you try to knock out before you get to the day job?

**Nick Roberts (00:07:59):** I try to do two hours. So I'll get up and give myself two hours at the desk before I need to head into work.

That's pretty disciplined. Yeah. I think it seems like the best writers who juggle lots of different pursuits, you just have to take a very disciplined approach to it, and treat it with kind of a blue collar work ethic and just put in the time and get good drafts after drafts under your belt.

Do you remember the oddest writing assignment you've had? Yeah, I would say oddest and most depressing was probably writing short obituaries for Duke's alumni magazine. But that process also taught me a lot about writing in a concise way because you were very limited on space and trying to sum up someone's accomplishments in about a paragraph.

**Marvin Cash (00:08:53):** Yeah, that definitely is odd. Who's your favorite author?

**Nick Roberts (00:08:57):** If I had to pick one, I would say Jim Harrison. If I had to pick two, I would say and Cormac McCarthy, too.

**Marvin Cash (00:09:04):** Got it. And so, you went to Duke, you went down to UNCW for graduate school, and then you worked your way to Brevard and guided and worked at DRO for six years. Tell us a little bit about how you got called to the mothership at BTT.

**Nick Roberts (00:09:23):** Yep. So I applied for a membership and communications coordinator job at Bonefish & Tarpon Trust down in Miami. I used to manage the membership program. And then since then, I've worked my way up to becoming director of marketing communications. And I'm now the editor of our magazine, the Bonefish and Tarpon Journal, which comes out every spring and fall.

**Marvin Cash (00:09:47):** And for people that aren't familiar with Bonefish and Tarpon Trust, can you tell us a little bit about its history and its mission?

**Nick Roberts (00:09:55):** Sure. Yes. So Bonefish & Tarpon Trust, it's a nonprofit based in Miami. It was founded in the Florida Keys more than 20 years ago by a small group of concerned anglers. And what they were concerned about was the rapid decline in bonefish populations in South Florida that they were witnessing. So that group of founders pooled their money and started BTT. And since that time, BTT has taken up tarpon conservation work as well as permit conservation work. So its mission is conserving bonefish, tarpon and permit fisheries. And we do that through science-based conservation, education, and advocacy. So the scientific research we do really informs our conservation. And it's really all about conservation outcomes for us.

**Marvin Cash (00:10:48):** Does your organization differ from, I guess, similar conservation organizations like TU and Fly Fishers International?

**Nick Roberts (00:10:56):** Sure. So BTT shares a common bond with TU and FFI through fishing, and we collaborate occasionally on things such as education and advocacy. So in many respects, there are similarities among us in terms of how we work, relying on research, education, and advocacy to achieve conservation outcomes. The principal difference is where we work. So BTT focuses on saltwater flats fisheries only. This includes multiple species and habitat types where you don't find the other groups as much, and then working with fisheries at scale.

Another difference may be how we work with collaborating scientists. So as a small nonprofit, BTT is able to accomplish a lot by enlisting the help of scientists across the country who conduct flats-related research on BTT grants that we give. And that's allowed us to really become a leader in saltwater flats conservation.

**Marvin Cash (00:11:57):** And do you have clubs, or do you have kind of a different way of having kind of outreach with kind of the angling public?

**Nick Roberts (00:12:05):** Sure. So we don't have clubs like TU does, but what we do have is an extensive membership program. And those membership levels begin at $35 for a year and they go up. So our membership is very important to our mission. We're membership-based. So in that way, we're similar to TU.

**Marvin Cash (00:12:27):** Got it. And can you give us kind of a highlight of some of the stuff you guys are working on in Florida and elsewhere?

**Nick Roberts (00:12:33):** Sure. So while we were founded in Florida, we're now working from the Bahamas all the way to the Yucatan Peninsula and all along the U.S. coast from Texas to Virginia. We have full time staff in Florida, the Bahamas and along the Belize-Mexico border. And we also have collaborating scientists working in other areas such as Cuba.

One of our largest projects that's ongoing is the Tarpon Acoustic Tagging Project, and that's sponsored by Maverick Boat Group. This project consists of tagging tarpon in a wide range of sizes — from little 5- to 10-pound juvenile tarpon all the way up to the giant fish in the 150-pound range. So we tag them with acoustic transmitters, and this allows our scientists to track their movements and habitat use for approximately five years. This project is a really good example of the range of our work since we're tracking tarpon not only in Florida, but throughout the southeast U.S. We recently launched a tagging program in Texas as well. To date, we've tracked tarpon in five states and have compiled nearly 200,000 detections, including movement data across multiple years for individual fish, which no other tarpon research study has ever accomplished.

And then at home in Florida, we're currently advocating for a seasonal no-fish enclosure at Western Dry Rocks. Western Dry Rocks is the most important permit spawning site in the Lower Keys. It's near Key West. And while there are catch and release regulations in place during the permit spawning season, our research has concluded that 39% of hooked permit are actually lost to sharks. So even though it may be catch and release during that time of year, we're losing an unsustainable amount of fish to depredation while they're hooked, which is problematic. In order to make it a sustainable fishery, we need to address that issue. So I can tell you more later about how people can voice their support for that initiative.

We're also in the Bahamas assessing mangrove damage. Mangroves are a vital part of bonefish habitat, and Hurricane Dorian severely impacted them in the northern Bahamas. So we're currently surveying the damage there. And then that information will be used to inform our restoration efforts set to begin later this year.

**Marvin Cash (00:15:13):** That's a lot of stuff. Are those kind of the main areas of concern for BTT? Or are there other kind of high-level areas that you guys are trying to kind of keep your eyes on?

**Nick Roberts (00:15:25):** So we have about 20 projects going at the moment. So there's a lot. I would say that the biggest issues for us are water quality and then the degradation of habitat. So habitat loss is a huge detriment to the fishery and a huge threat to the fishery. And then compromised water in places like South Florida with contaminants and nutrient runoff can accelerate that. And then unsustainable fishing practices like those taking place at Western Dry Rocks — where about 39% of hooked permit are being lost to sharks — is another example of a very pressing conservation concern.

**Marvin Cash (00:16:11):** Got it. And obviously we're recording this on the last day of March and the entire world is embroiled in this COVID-19 crisis, and appropriately looking out for their family and looking out for their fellow man. What kind of challenges does that create for you at BTT to help people maintain their focus on your mission at an appropriate level?

**Nick Roberts (00:16:34):** Sure. Yeah, during this time of uncertainty, our members and supporters are still very engaged through our social media accounts. We recently released a new tarpon conservation film just a few days ago, and we'll be sharing new content on a regular basis just to engage with our members and followers. And there's still plenty of conservation work to do. And through our online platform, members can still respond to calls to action, like voicing their support for a spawning seasonal closure at Western Dry Rocks. So if folks want to learn more about that, they can just visit btt.org/protect-permit.

**Marvin Cash (00:17:19):** Got it. And obviously it's very early on in this entire COVID-19 pandemic, but what are the thoughts at BTT around this event's long-term and short-term impacts on your mission?

**Nick Roberts (00:17:32):** Sure. Like you and I have talked about before, our nation's never faced anything like this. We're at the point where it's not possible to make predictions or project outcomes. In the short run, we all need to follow the direction we're receiving from state and federal authorities on things like sheltering in place, such as what's happening now in South Florida where BTT is based. So our focus is on public health and safety, and that means we're not able to do a lot of fishing right now. It also means our scientists have to come off the water. So for the next one to three months, let's say, our research projects will be on pause. We also won't have our usual opportunities this spring to spend time with our members and supporters at BTT events, which have been postponed. So that's going to reduce our fundraising on the year, but I'm hopeful that we'll be able to make up a lot of that through donor contributions. And then long-term, we're hopeful that we'll be returning to some sense of normalcy by the summer.

**Marvin Cash (00:18:38):** And as you mentioned earlier in our interview, BTT isn't unique, but the core of what it does is basically science-based, and I know that you guys have regular gatherings of the scientific community. Can you tell us a little bit about those?

**Nick Roberts (00:18:52):** Sure. So we actually have a major event every three years called the International Science Symposium in Flats Expo. So our last one was November of 2017. So we have one coming up November 2020, the 13th and 14th, and that's in Weston, Florida. Marvin, I'd love to have you there. So this symposium basically brings together stakeholders from throughout the world of flat fishing, from scientists and guides to lodge owners and policymakers. And we're bringing together people not only from Florida and the Bahamas, but also Belize, Mexico, other great flats destinations. So it's really a unique event in that it consists of science presentations, clinics by legends like Andy Mill, a film night, a banquet, cocktail party. So it's really kind of a who's who of the flats fishing world combined with the latest research on flats fishing conservation. So I'd invite anyone out there to attend. It's great. Whether you're new to saltwater fishing or you've been doing it for 20 years, I think everyone can learn a lot about it and a lot about what we're doing on the conservation front.

**Marvin Cash (00:20:23):** Yeah, absolutely. And I will drop a link to that event in the show notes too. Great. And so, you touched on this a little bit earlier because I know some of your fundraising events for this year have been postponed. But can you give us kind of a 30,000-foot view of how Bonefish and Tarpon Trust funds its operations?

**Nick Roberts (00:20:44):** Sure. Yeah, we're funded through membership, private donation, grants.

**Marvin Cash (00:20:52):** Got it. And can you give a rough ballpark on kind of what the mix is of those three?

**Nick Roberts (00:20:56):** So our last 2018 report, we were 75% contributions and grants, 17% fundraising and events, and then 8% were membership dues.

**Marvin Cash (00:21:08):** So, we talked about your science symposium and some of your fundraising events. How does Bonefish and Tarpon Trust engage with the angling public on a day-to-day basis?

**Nick Roberts (00:21:19):** So we have, as I mentioned before, an extensive membership program. And then education is a huge part of our mission. So we do educational outreach with school-age kids all the way up to the angling public. Some examples of this include producing catch and release videos that go over best handling practices for tarpon and bonefish. And then we also engage with the angling public in terms of advocacy. So the example of Western Dry Rocks is a prime example of that, where we're calling on the angling public to help us voice their support for a spawning season closure at Western Dry Rocks, which is the most important permit spawning site in the Lower Keys.

**Marvin Cash (00:22:09):** Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, I've noticed that you frequently reach out to your membership to weigh in on issues related to habitat degradation.

**Nick Roberts (00:22:19):** Yes. So habitat degradation is a major problem, not only in Florida, but also throughout the range where we work in Belize and Mexico, for example. There's an increased amount of development. So we actually just launched a comprehensive plan for Belize and Mexico that's going to seek to address a lot of the threats to the flats fishery. And then at home in Florida, we're actively working to restore juvenile tarpon habitat. So a lot of people don't realize that the giant tarpon people come down to fish for in the Everglades and the Keys — they begin as just tiny, tiny fish living in these backwater creeks. And a lot of those creeks are impacted by development. So what we're doing in restoring those creeks is helping to sustain and conserve the population so that more of those larger fish are available for anglers in our generation and the next generation to go and catch.

**Marvin Cash (00:23:19):** Yeah, absolutely. I know a lot of those game fish that we like to target on the flats and inshore nursery in those mangroves and back in these kind of salt marshes. And we're losing that type of land more and more every day to development, as you mentioned.

**Nick Roberts (00:23:33):** Yeah, exactly. Yep. That's one of the biggest threats to the fisheries, habitat degradation and loss.

**Marvin Cash (00:23:39):** Got it. And obviously it's very early. Do you have any thoughts around how the COVID-19 crisis is going to impact our angling community and kind of how we interact with each other in the future?

**Nick Roberts (00:23:52):** Well, I think it's going to naturally bring us together more online since there may be more ways that we interact virtually — from fly tying seminars to casting seminars to more use of things like Facebook live streaming. So in that way, I think that the online community may get stronger, more robust.

Do you think that's going to be a lasting change or do

**Marvin Cash (00:24:18):** you think that's something that kind of people, when things return back to normal, they're going

**Nick Roberts (00:24:22):** to kind of go back to their old ways? I think it may be a lasting change in that we're going to get more efficient and more savvy about how to do it. I think a lot of people who are stuck at home right now are learning more about platforms like Zoom and Facebook. And so they might be more comfortable using those platforms to communicate with friends and family and fishing buddies

**Marvin Cash (00:24:49):** going forward. That makes a lot of sense. And on a more positive note, can you share some of your recent social distancing experiences on the water? I've seen some pictures on Instagram.

**Nick Roberts (00:25:00):** Sure. Yeah. So before — I'm currently up in the Blue Ridge Mountains — but just before I left, I had the chance to go out and help one of our scientists tag bonefish in Biscayne Bay, which is the main body of water right by Miami. So what we're doing in tagging these bonefish is trying to locate where these fish are spawning, which is obviously locating that as a huge piece of the conservation puzzle. So I had the chance to go out with our scientist, Dr. Ross Boucek, and then a Miami guide, Martin Carranza, who guides throughout Biscayne Bay. So that was a great day on the water, kind of as the COVID stuff was starting to heat up in Miami. And then since then, I've had the chance to do some trout fishing up in North Carolina as well.

**Marvin Cash (00:25:52):** Got it. Any other silver linings you have in these odd times?

**Nick Roberts (00:25:57):** Yeah, I would think that for a lot of people, it's been a really good chance to just kind of slow down and reconnect with friends and family since a lot of us are sequestered at home. So in that way, I think maintaining and building new relationships is a silver lining during this time when a lot of us have extra time on our hands and less distractions.

**Marvin Cash (00:26:25):** Yeah, I can definitely tell you I've spent a lot more time with my family, and it's been really good to spend time with my kids for sure. Before I let you hop, why don't you let folks know where they can learn more about BTT and how they can get involved?

**Nick Roberts (00:26:39):** Sure. To learn more about Bonefish and Tarpon Trust, head over to www.btt.org. And then from there, if you'd like to learn about our membership program, there's a big membership button that says join or renew at the top. And then there's also plenty of information about upcoming events. And then our blog is actually on that same page, btt.org. So if you just scroll down a little bit, you can see the latest conservation updates and all sorts of great fly fishing and flat fishing content there.

**Marvin Cash (00:27:15):** Well, that's awesome. Well, Nick, I appreciate you taking a little bit of time away from the water today to talk to me.

**Nick Roberts (00:27:22):** Thanks Marvin. It's been great. I appreciate being on.

**Marvin Cash (00:27:24):** Absolutely. Take care. Stay safe.

**Nick Roberts (00:27:27):** You too. Thanks.

**Marvin Cash (00:27:29):** Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Again, if you like the podcast, please subscribe and leave us a review in the podcatcher of your choice. And again, a shout out to this episode's sponsor, our friends at PostFly.

**Marvin Cash (00:27:42):** Go to www.postflybox.com and check them out today. Stay safe, everybody. Tight lines.