S3, Ep 111: Josh Miller of Trout Yeah Guide Service

Marvin Cash (00:04-01:15): Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. On this episode, I'm joined by Josh Miller of Trout Yeah Guide Service. Josh shares his journey from metal band drummer to competitive angler to U.S. Youth Team coach and everything in between. I think you're really going to enjoy this one.

But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out. And as we continue to create and distribute more diverse content, you may want to consider downloading our iOS or Android app. We organize our content by category so you can go straight to the content that interests you the most. The apps are free and the links are in the show notes. Alternatively, just search The Articulate Fly where you get your mobile apps.

Now, on to the interview. Well, Josh, welcome to The Articulate Fly. Thanks so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. I think we've had this one in the hopper for a while. I think the last time we spoke about it was at the 2019 Fly Time Symposium before COVID got everybody.

Josh Miller (01:17-01:21): Yeah, I think that was the last time that we've been talking about a long time prior to that.

Marvin Cash (01:21-01:36): Yeah, well, here we are. And before I forget, this was something that I don't think a lot of my listeners know, and probably a fair number of people that know you don't know. When I was doing research for the interview, I stumbled on the fact that you were a drummer in a metal band. Tell us a little bit about that.

Josh Miller (01:37-03:44): Yeah, man. Being a drummer and playing music was an awesome part of my life. I started in high school. I remember meeting up. It's crazy. We always meet people through a common avenue, which at the time was skateboarding. I met these guys, and they were like, you happen to play drums? And I was like, yeah, a little bit. And we got together and played.

And then it slowly grew. We fished our regional area. I remember my first tour. First day, we fished Cincinnati, Ohio, then Indiana, Kentucky. I remember our first tour was on the weekend where I was supposed to graduate. I remember my wife saying at this time - I was with my wife actually still at that time, not married, but dating, of course. And I remember she saying, hearing my name at graduation, I wasn't there. I was playing a show and who knows where.

But slowly it grew. And I got to travel around the country and do some regional tours and slowly became national tours. And it got to the point where I'd come home for a week and then go for 30 days, come home for another week and go for another 30 days just around the United States.

It's crazy because I fly fished at the time. I fly fished prior to that, of course. And I was the person who would book the tours. And I'd be looking in Denver, Colorado or Vail, Colorado so I could go fish Gore Creek and the Eagle River and fishing in Utah. I would start booking my tour dates around fishing. And for those who know usually what fishing is, might not be a lot of metropolitan area with a lot of fans. And my band started realizing that and was like, hey, like, do you like fly fishing or do you like being in the band? And it kind of got to a point where I was like, I think I like fly fishing more. And that's kind of how I slowly faded away from the band and I became a fly fishing crazed nut.

Marvin Cash (03:44-03:50): Yeah, I imagine your band buddies got a little irked when someone did a Toby Keith request. They're like, dude, we're a metal band from Pittsburgh.

Josh Miller (03:51-04:40): Yeah, yep. When people ask what kind of music you play, I just say headache music, because that's the best way to describe it. Just heavy metal, having fun. Yeah, it was a good life.

Yeah, and you guys, you had a record deal too, right? Yeah, we were signing a good label. We did some CDs. We actually kind of, just for fun, put out a vinyl too, which is kind of cool. Yeah, it was awesome, man. It was a good part of my life that I don't regret. I'm happy I got to experience something in life that, think about it. I pull into down the road coming to the venue at Nashville or Pensacola or Orlando, and you see your band's name on the sticker, and you see 50 kids outside waiting or 100 kids in line. I was like, that's just so cool. It's just a cool experience.

Marvin Cash (04:40-04:44): Yeah, absolutely. So are there pictures floating around of you with like big metal hair and wearing eye makeup and stuff?

Josh Miller (04:44-05:10): No, it wasn't quite that kind, but it's crazy saying that, like I have other - even one of my teammates is one of the best anglers out there is named Sean Crocker. Incredible dude. He was like, I was in a seventies or eighties metal band to one of those hair bands. That's so cool, man. It's cool to see all amount of fly fishermen played music.

Marvin Cash (05:11-05:17): Yeah. Very neat and who are some of the drummers that influenced you well I guess back when you were starting?

Josh Miller (05:17-06:04): Well, back when I was starting there was a church friend, his name was Josh Jacobs and his brother. I remember I'd go to his house and like go in the basement and there's a beautiful drum set. I'm like I remember my earliest days playing drums like go and sit down on that thing and it was just like the coolest. And he played in a metal band in Pittsburgh too and I would like go over their house to listen to them play. And that was a big influence for me for sure.

And there's another guy in the band, his name is Giuseppe, and he was definitely another big influence as well. So I definitely have some - I had to think about that for a minute, but I definitely have some cool influences and they're good people too. Really nice quality, good people. And that helps too for good influence.

Marvin Cash (06:04-06:16): Yeah. Very neat. And we've talked about this before, but it seems that there are a lot of musicians that are also fly fishers. And I was kind of curious if you had any thoughts on why you thought you would find this overlap between musicians and fly fishermen.

Josh Miller (06:17-07:03): I don't know. Maybe the brain analyzes something different or maybe we're using a different proportion of the brain. Who knows? Maybe it's some sort of hand-eye coordination. I don't know. So, yeah, I don't know, but I do definitely know that there's a lot of fly fishing friends who have played.

Like my friend Joe, who works with me on our guide business, he was a guitarist for a lot of years. And my other friend Sam, who fishes with me a lot, he's a guitar player. Yeah, I definitely say that there's a lot of musicians, too. Maybe not dying musicians, but just hobbyists or people that like to play music. Don't you play music, too?

Marvin Cash (07:03-07:32): I used to. I don't anymore. But yeah, dude, I had the electric guitar in high school, played the piano, played the drums, played the clarinet. So I've done a little bit. Yeah, it's all good. But unfortunately, gave it up to become supposedly a responsible adult. Isn't that how it goes?

Yeah, it is how it goes. This is how it goes. Yeah. So on the fishing front, you're a native Pittsburgher. What's your earliest fishing memory, Josh?

Josh Miller (07:33-08:05): Fishing, I remember as being a young guy, my parents would put me up in those streams in the north central Pennsylvania fishing for our state fish with the brook trout. I remember my mom and dad, or just being with my dad and spending weekend after weekend after weekend, just exploring the little streams off of the stream, off of the stream. We even call them drafts here in Pennsylvania. And I didn't even really know what that meant, but then these streams that were so small and catching these little beautiful brook trout definitely spent a lot of my youngest memories and days doing that pretty cool.

Marvin Cash (08:05-08:15): Yeah and so does that mean that you were kind of fly fishing from the beginning if you were chasing brook trout on tributaries of tributaries of tributaries?

Josh Miller (08:15-08:54): Yeah, yeah my dad loved fly fishing then. We did do some spin fishing too. We definitely would just like to explore and see what was out there and we always kind of just trying to hunt the next cool stream and cool spot and that's definitely like put a fire passion in me.

Like because my dad - my dad's so cool if I'd be like dad like let's drive this many hours to go do something. He's always the dad that's like yeah sure son like let's go try it and I think that like helped my entire nomadic lifestyle from the band to touring to going fishing so many countries and states and that's kind of - yeah but I guess that's kind of off topic but yeah.

Marvin Cash (08:54-09:09): No dude every everything's on topic. And so if you were fly fishing early age when did you get the competitive fly fishing bug?

Josh Miller (09:10-11:20): Well I didn't - I started fishing kind of competition style techniques and whoever doesn't understand that's kind of a strange thing to say but the European thing is kind of a technique that a lot of competitors use because it is good to catch a good amount of fish on most situations and I start doing that style technique before I knew what competitions was.

My uncle Donnie kind of reignited me with fly fishing and those techniques a long time ago. I remember I had - I don't know I was pretty young but I remember going with him and fishing some of those north central Pennsylvania but more wild brown trout and he kind of got me reintroduced.

But the first time I saw a fly fishing competition there's a dude from central PA his name is Brian Doyle really nice guy. He kind of invited me to learn about it and I was fishing on the Little Jay one time a lot of years ago and I saw a competition going on. I was like whoa what is that and I kind of went up and they're like hey you want to like help and I was like I'd love to kind of see what's going on because it's kind of interesting.

And I remember the first person I ever really judged was his name was Calvin Kalos and now Calvin and I are amazing friends and he shares responsibility - he's the head coach of the US Youth Team and I'm his helper and it's just kind of cool to see like back then I didn't know this crazy dude on the stream and now he's like one of my best friends. It's kind of neat but that's kind of what like got me into the competition kind of seeing that and seeing the and learning like I saw this dude doing really well and like he came over like hey look look here take these flies this is what works and this is what I'm doing and it was like wow like these guys are good.

The camaraderie is awesome. They're like-minded dudes trying to succeed and figure out techniques and think like figure this puzzle out of fly fishing and that kind of really intrigued me and I don't know and just the want to learn and do the best that can be.

Marvin Cash (11:21-11:26): Yeah. And so how long after that experience did you decide that you wanted to fish competitively?

Josh Miller (11:26-11:53): So I decided if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it to the best of my ability. Cause that's how I kind of am with everything. I like to put it all out there. And I practiced a good year, year and a half to do my first competition. And then I jumped into the first one and I remember taking second place on the first one. And I'm like, okay, this is cool. I can do this. This is pretty cool.

Marvin Cash (11:55-12:02): Yeah. And was that Josh, the light bulb moment for you where you're like, I can be an elite angler as a competitive angler?

Josh Miller (12:04-12:38): Well, I still don't really consider myself an elite angler, but I think that's the first time I was like, okay, I think I can hang with these dudes and kind of do well enough to enjoy that aspect of it. Cause I am - some people just like fly fishing for being outside, being in the water. And I'd like that as well. But I sometimes like to win. I'm just, that's just kind of my nature as a person. So I like to know that I was able to, and going in and doing well, it's kind of that fuel to keep on pushing forward.

Marvin Cash (12:39-12:57): Got it. And so it's funny too, that you say this, cause just as a footnote folks, there are only 15 slots at any time on Fly Fishing Team USA. And Josh did a couple of tours of duty. So he's being a little modest when he says he doesn't think of himself as an elite angler. Cause that's for sure elite.

Josh Miller (12:58-12:59): So, I appreciate that.

Marvin Cash (13:00-13:17): Oh gosh. I'm just trying to toot your horn for you a little bit there. So as you were kind of building your toolbox as a competitive angler, what was the most difficult part of your competitive fishing game for you to perfect?

Josh Miller (13:18-14:43): Dude that - a lot of people would be like oh what is it like dry dropper is it like when a fish is doing this or that. Those all things are kind of come with time are kind of situational in it's fishing.

Fishing for me the hardest part of my competitive game was my mental game. That was the hardest part for me because I would get shook or upset or just flustered sometimes too easily or too prematurely and then I would maybe forget my next step or my next series of what I wanted to do.

And I think the mental game, when we break down as a competitor, what we're trying to do is catch the most fish we can. But a lot of that isn't just skill. A lot of it is, I say it's 50%. 50% luck, 50% skill, and 50%... I know it's 350, but 50% luck, 50% skill, and 50% technique. There's a third percentage of it that you got to, you obviously need to know what you're doing, but you also have to have a strategy and a good mind game and you need to have luck too. So there's more aspects to it than just being good.

Marvin Cash (14:44-14:50): Yeah. Got it. And so once you started competing and accumulating points, how long did it take you to qualify for Fly Fishing Team USA?

Josh Miller (14:52-15:23): That, so Fly Fishing Team USA is a two year cycle. So it was the first and second time I tried. I made Team USA both times. And there's some really good anglers out there, man. There's some really good dudes on that team, really good role models. And just people have inspired me to keep pushing. And they're very willing to share their knowledge. And it's good to be a part of a good group like that.

Marvin Cash (15:24-15:39): Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because I've interviewed or had been able to spend time with a lot of guys that have fished competitively. And almost all of them talk about how collaborative it is, which I think a lot of folks wouldn't think that being competitive would create a collaborative environment.

Josh Miller (15:40-16:18): Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Competition is a weird thing. A lot of people cringe when they even hear that. How can fly fish in the competition? It's supposed to be fun. Well, I enjoy that aspect of it. I enjoy the fun of fly fishing. I also enjoy the fun of being in a competing too. Some people like competing in chess. Some people like watching The Office. I like competing with fly fishing. That's just what I like.

But it's just weird. Sometimes you hear competition and it just makes people kind of go, like, how can that make sense?

Marvin Cash (16:19-16:19): Yeah.

Josh Miller (16:19-17:04): But I just wanted to share that with people. I understand both sides of it. And if it's done properly and done in love and conservation respect, it absolutely can be beneficial for a lot of people and a lot of the regular anglers that don't compete too because we learn a lot of techniques because we push ourselves to be the best in every situation.

So you get a beat that's flat or a beat that you're not used to fishing, we can push our brains and our abilities to figure out how to catch fish in those situations. And then that can be on the next podcast. And that's when your anglers are learning from it. So there's a lot you can get out of those things that some people might think are negative or, if that makes sense.

Marvin Cash (17:04-17:27): No, it does. And obviously you've competed a lot, not just for qualifying for the team and being on the team and being around it after you are on the team. But can you share a couple of really memorable competition moments and maybe what you took away from them, whether it was something personal or whether it was a skill that you or a solution that you put in your toolkit for the future?

Josh Miller (17:29-19:10): Yeah, there's, I mean, my gosh, from the day one till last time out, there's always something you learn. There's always those aha moments or like those groundbreaking moments. But once you kind of get your technique solidified and you start catching - you start getting to be decent at what you do, there might not be these like ground crazy, like, oh my gosh, like that technique, like the secret technique that made you catch a million fish.

Sometimes all it is is just a small percentage or a very little minute aspect that is that groundbreaking thing and that's what I - a lot of people sometimes I don't think understand. It might just be the fly sinking at a different rate or casting with a different rod angle or those little things sometimes is that huge aha moment.

But if I could take away one thing was never give up. That was probably what I would say was my biggest moment was just never give up because there's so many times we're in a competition or whatever I look downstream and Michael Bradley's just smoking under the net or whatever and I'm just like oh my gosh I'm done. But you never know what's going to happen. You always just stick it. Stick with it. You have fun. You make the most of it. If you can keep that attitude - if I can keep that attitude just have fun and then I then I did well. It's whenever I push myself too hard or lose that fun then that and then it becomes what it shouldn't be to me. If I could just don't give up and just have fun with it, I would say that was kind of my biggest moment.

Marvin Cash (19:11-19:20): Yeah, it relates back to what you were talking about earlier, probably about how that probably helps you keep your focus, right? Absolutely, yeah. Don't get shook.

Josh Miller (19:20-20:45): I'd hook a fish and bring it right to my net and it'd fall off right that last moment. I'd hook a fish and then lose my whole rig in the tree and then look downstream and someone had a fish in the net. It's just like, ah!

I remember this one time. Oh, geez. It was such a fun battle. There was this one time up on, I know I can't say battle. It was a fun session. We were fishing the National Championship in Lake Placid, New York. Awesome fly shop up there called Hungry Trout. Really good dudes. If any of the listeners go in that area, athletes stop and check out that fly shop. They were our host fly shop. You're fishing just behind the hungry trout there on the Ausable.

And I remember, man, every time I looked down, Ken Crane had a fish in the net. And Jesse Holler, one of the Orvis, an awesome dude that works for Orvis, a good friend of mine, he had a fish in the net. I swear, but every time I'd land one, he'd land one, Ken would land one, I'd land one, Ken. So it was like back to back to back. If you miss a fish, you drop behind one fish. It was just so fun, just so cool. I remember we each ended up, I think like, it was like, I won't say how many fish, but one had one more, one had one less. It was just like back to back to back numbers. It's just so - it's just cool. It's fun. It's just a fun time.

Marvin Cash (20:46-21:05): Yeah, absolutely. And I know kind of, as you've kind of progressed and gotten away from fishing for the U.S. team that you're now the co-owner of Trout Yeah Guide Service. And I know that you specialize in Euro-nymphing and I was kind of curious, after you were done competing, what made you want to start a guide service?

Josh Miller (21:06-22:32): To share definitely the techniques that I've been blessed to learn. I fish with, like I said, there's these amazing dudes - George Daniel, Lance Egan, Devin Olsen. I mean, my gosh, I've been lucky enough to fish with those guys and lucky enough to fish with a few individual world champions and fish different countries and states and see these experiences and that's it's too good to hold in and it's too good to not be shared.

But honestly how it kind of started was me being out there on the water and just seeing people and walking up to it and be like hey like try this or try that and then it kind of quickly grew to people coming into the fly shop I work at and being like hey you want to take me or like can we go like I want to learn and it kind of like it was more of it almost needed to happen than me wanting to do it in a sense too.

And it's worked out really good and I've done it I've been guiding I think it's like five or six years now. Trout Yeah is Joe Clark's and my kind of guide service and we guide Pennsylvania. It's just awesome teaching people. People come from all over the country. We've had just some of the best anglers come fishing with us. And we're very honored to have those people and very blessed to have all those people reach out and want to go with us. Great.

Marvin Cash (22:33-22:43): Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny you say that because I mean, I can literally, while you're talking, I can think of probably like six to eight guys that have guide services that are former competitors for probably exactly that reason.

Josh Miller (22:44-23:06): Yeah yeah it's more people want to learn and we want to share this knowledge. It's like I said it's too good to hold in and that's part of being doing the competition like I said earlier you learn that you have taken so much from the river in a sense the river has given you so much you got to give back and one of the ways to give back is giving back to people and I think that's important.

Marvin Cash (23:06-23:22): Yeah very neat and even for kind of mere mortals like me that don't competitively fish and don't Euro-nymph all the time, can you kind of give folks a few ideas of some of the competitive elements that an average angler should put in his or her fishing arsenal?

Josh Miller (23:22-25:16): Yeah, I think you're coming up with a game plan, coming up with a game plan on your attack for that day. Like, what are you going to do? Like I said, some people that that's not in their book of once they just want to go and sit on the bank and watch a fish rise, which is sometimes I like doing that too.

But if I'm fishing a new stream or something and my goal is to catch some fish, I might go in with wanting to do this technique and then have a backup and then a backup to that. And so when do I switch or when do I know what to do? I kind of let the fish tell me what they're doing. What I mean by that is like I'll make a drift to a fish and it doesn't eat. And then I'll change and fish doesn't eat. and then maybe it eats on the 10th drift. And that fish told me something. It wasn't active. It didn't eat on my first drift. Maybe I needed to like work for that fish more. So that makes me change my game plan so I can slow down and fish my water differently or whatever.

And just, I think, that kind of strategy, strategy is big. The second thing, I think, is understanding where fish sit and reading water. But, man, it's hard to teach things like that. It does take a lot of time on the water. And what I tell people is there's nothing, there's no better teacher, no greater teacher than just a fish eating your fly. You detecting the bite, you setting the hook and catching the fish. Like there's no greater teacher out there. The more you do that, the more that positive reinforcement with the technique. So when you do the technique right and you see that positivity come from it, then you really just grow and you start learning how the fish act and what they do. And I don't know if that kind of answered the question. I kind of went off on a tangent, but you can tell I'm passionate about that.

Marvin Cash (25:17-25:33): Yeah. Well, it's funny too, that you say that. Cause I mean, I think too, one of the real challenges, particularly for those of us that don't get to fish as much as we want to is, even if you fish the same water, if you're fishing it at different times of the year, it fishes completely differently. Right.

Josh Miller (25:33-25:59): Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. I have a project we'll talk about later. I'm working on but I have like a photo of me fishing this run and I like put where I caught the fish at the winter time and then like in the summertime I put the same photo and I put like spots where I caught the fish and oh my gosh like you'd be like dude they're just in those winter spots in the soft water and then in the summer they're everywhere I mean the fish can be caught anywhere yeah it's crazy how they spread out and it's but that's we're getting too deep down the rabbit hole there.

Marvin Cash (25:59-26:29): Fair enough we won't go any further there but yeah so I think a lot of people when they think about Euro-nymphing think that like everything really revolves around strike detection and I feel like and you and I've had this conversation before like I think of competitive anglers as like the grand prix drivers of fly fishing right and there's so much more than just driving the car and I was wondering if you could kind of tease out some of those things for our listeners?

Josh Miller (26:29-27:15): Well, there's a lot. I mean, there's a lot, but it's also, once you kind of get the few things, it's like habit. I know we've talked about habit recently. Once you get that habit down, it becomes almost second nature. A lot of the things, but yeah, strike detection is a big part of it actually.

Speaking of that it's impossible to at times detect all the bites. Even in just strike detection alone sometimes what we'll do is even just set the hook when we think fish are going to be in that area. Does that make sense?

Marvin Cash (27:15-27:21): Sometimes we're like a fish should sit there yeah it's like fishing soft tackles and lifting right in front of the boulder, right?

Josh Miller (27:22-28:02): Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And there's everything you can go to, for example, just picking that topic of strike detection, everything you can go like down that rabbit hole and down that, okay, like hook setting. How do you set the hook? Use your arm, use your wrist. When do you do what? Tippet size. Rod angles, weight of fly. There's so much to it, but it's not that much. And that sounds like a ton, but once you kind of have your series of methods down and you get that confidence, which I think confidence is reading water and confidence and coming up with a strategy and having good, some decent technique, you're going to catch fish. Not that hard.

Marvin Cash (28:02-28:50): Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of other stuff where let's just say the average angler doesn't need to be as efficient as a competitive angler, but there are things that you guys do that will allow someone like me to spend more time fishing. It's kind of like that old guide yarn where it's like well dude if your rig's not in the water you certainly aren't going to catch any fish.

Right and so like I think I've talked to you before like for example I think Devin's put out a video at this point because so many people were interested in the way he rigs his net right or the way you guys organize your fly boxes or the way that you guys get good at just a few knots right yeah that type of stuff right so even for example...

Josh Miller (28:50-29:32): You know when fishing is good and you're catching a fair number of fish like kind of what you're saying about the net thing if you're fishing two flies one of those flies is getting tangled in the net if you can get away with fishing one that's like if you catch X amount of fish and it takes 15 seconds on tangle each time or that fish is eating that top fly and that bottom one's just wrap and heck around your leader, like, it might take two minutes. And if you do that 10 times, 10 fish, that's 20 minutes. But if you're catching numbers, you can switch to one fly. You might not get any tangles at all. Just those little thought process. But even you asking me that, I take a lot of stuff almost for granted and I don't even think about it sometimes in a way.

Marvin Cash (29:33-30:17): Yeah, I do. But like looking at like the way you guys are very versatile. Right. And so the kind of the backpack chest pack and then I'm a huge fan of the Golden Trout lanyards but like seeing that process right where for people that don't understand they're really awesome I'll drop a link to them in the show notes but lots of clips for forceps all that sort of stuff but magnets to hold flies but then the great thing is it's got a flip open CNF fly box right where you can kind of pre-select what you want to fish.

Josh Miller (30:18-30:24): Yeah. Yeah. And we call that a working box. Yeah. And so I think all those little things, right. Where for lack of a better metaphor, we don't have to drive the Ferrari, but we can be really, really good at driving the Honda Accord.

Marvin Cash (30:24-30:44): Yeah. Yeah. And I like driving the Honda Accord too. That has rough hanging out. Yeah. But it's stuff like that. Like you were talking about the droppers, like to me, that's the reason that everybody should put one of those rubber nets on their net. Right. Cause if you're not fishing barbless, like in your wrestling, like an 18 Pheasant Tail dropper out of your bag with your forceps and to your point, you can burn time.

Josh Miller (30:44-30:45): Right. Oh, goodness.

Marvin Cash (30:46-30:46): Yeah, absolutely.

Josh Miller (30:47-30:47): Yep.

Marvin Cash (30:48-31:27): Yeah, for sure. And so we've touched on this a little bit. But one thing I've noticed about competitive anglers is they're super process driven. Right. And that's not to say that you guys all fish the same process, but in terms of how you prepare, the way you gear up every day, the way you approach the water. And that's even like saying, like laying a visual grid out and fishing the grid, right. All of those things, I've kind of seen and inferred from talking to you and others, what is your general process look like when you go out for a day on the water?

Josh Miller (31:29-33:05): Well, my process definitely, just like you said, it can be different every day. And it changes kind of like what I said earlier with what the fish want. I might come in with wanting to do fish two nymphs and X amount of tippet. And then I see the fish act differently. And I might need to adjust accordingly. Maybe I need to go to fish a dry dropper and the fish are suspended. And I didn't realize they were. dry dropper might be more productive in that water type.

No but process comes with to me process comes with fishing a lot of hours in the water and having that positive reinforcement on when to do what and a lot of anglers ask me the question like how do I become better and that's kind of a part of what you're asking in a sense and I always tell them fish new rivers fish try to not fish the same spot on the same river all the time although that can be good to learn those fish but fish different streams. Fish tailwaters and limestone streams and mountain streams if you can and then it'll give you a more well-rounded understanding of just more trout in general where wild trout are going to feed different than stock trout are going to feed different than rainbow versus brown versus high pressure versus water clarity. All those factors are going to change what I'm going to do and change how I'm going to do it.

It might sound like I'm making it sound really magical but sometimes it's just not sometimes I just cast a fly into the water and catch a fish too.

Marvin Cash (33:06-33:13): Yeah and so do you keep a fishing journal to kind of help you swirl all that stuff out?

Josh Miller (33:14-34:27): You know it would make sense that I would but I used to kind of do that and I'll do audio notes once in a while if something was like really strange I saw or like I did something out of the ordinary it wasn't work I'll do audio notes just on my iPhone and like do a little voice memo but I don't really I just kind of try to take all those little bits of knowledge kind of backlog in my brain and when your brain is focused on like living a little family fly fishing there's a lot of brain capacity for just holding a lot of fly fishing in so fair enough.

It's so funny because Joe like show me a photo of like 10 years ago brown trout and I'm like oh I remember that exactly I was staying on Spring Creek I remember like Randy ran down the trail and caught that fish on pheasant tails on the swing he's like oh yeah I remember exactly like thousands of fish between here and there and I still remember that random one and my wife's like when's my birthday and I'm like oh shoot is that November or December and no actually it's August I think well I don't know we're just nuts yeah it's interesting how people can remember stuff like that.

Marvin Cash (34:27-35:07): But I think it's interesting too because I think there's so much in terms of like understanding fish behavior, whether it's wild versus stocked or what type of water they're in, but also trying to understand bug behavior, right? Yeah. Because it's interesting because I think we make it too hard, right?

Josh Miller (35:07-35:07): I think so, too. I think so, too. Yeah.

Marvin Cash (35:07-37:03): And so we've been extolling the virtues of Euro-nymphing here for the better part of a half an hour, but there are probably some negative things, Josh.

Josh Miller (35:07-37:03): Hop out at you absolutely with everything good unfortunately there is there's negative aspects to it. Number one no matter what we do we need to protect our fish and our resource and I know you can just say that we have to take action and actually do it and some of that is educating especially our anglers out there who are making a difference and especially our guides and influencers and then I don't like using that word but people who do influence people to try these techniques and go out and do it.

I think that there needs to be some sort of education on how to handle fish water temperatures not fishing for spawning fish just kind of like things that are common sense but I don't I think are forgotten about or like for example just a young kid the other day was fishing and it's pretty water's pretty warm came into the fly shop and I said that water's pretty warm like we try not to fish above 67 and he's like well I don't understand why and I think that's the thing just knowing that you can't fish at 67 maybe people kind of fluff that off but then if they understand that the water doesn't hold oxygen in those fish they're swimming away but might die later and that might be like oh wow like okay that makes more sense don't do it.

And I think that with Euro-nymphing I think getting back to why I think Euro-nymphing makes that even more of an issue is because the technique catches more fish it just does I mean it's plain it just catches more fish so we have more fish being caught that means more fish could could be mishandled or could we not cared for in the best of manner and I think that in doing so with great fishing technique comes great responsibility to take care of those fish yeah absolutely.

Marvin Cash (37:04-37:23): And I think probably the next iteration on that is for people not to blow other people up on social media and to try to help them understand because yeah I mean I don't think generally more often than not people are doing things just because they don't know.

Josh Miller (37:23-37:46): I think so too. I don't think it's, yes, I agree. And I do see that a lot of people, there's just too much meanness out there. I think teaching through example is better than being rude to people. We try not to be like that. We try to just love through our actions and show what we do through actions instead of just belittling people. I don't think that's very nice.

Marvin Cash (37:47-37:48): It's not conducive.

Josh Miller (37:50-37:55): All right, let's get off that. Let's move to something more. We're going to move on to the next positive thing.

Marvin Cash (37:56-38:17): So in addition to your guide service, you also co-host clinics across the country. And these are separate from the youth team clinics. And I know you just had one that just literally, I think, filled up in 48 hours. You want to tell folks a little bit about the clinics, kind of who they're for and kind of the general format?

Josh Miller (38:18-39:51): Yeah, man, the clinics are cool. They are, let's just say, U.S. Youth clinics for adults. I mean, we're just teaching kind of similar things that we teach the young men that go over and fish in world championships and have done very, very well. We're teaching just not just here and everything, but techniques in that range to catch fish. And it's on the water. We're doing them in different states.

And how we're choosing where we're doing them is we're just choosing the states that we can get guide licenses in and they're not like crazy expensive because some states are really expensive to get licensed. So that's kind of how we're choosing where we're doing it. We're doing the clinics. So our next one is in Connecticut. It just showed up. And hopefully we did one in Oklahoma. We're going to do that one again and maybe Missouri.

But if anyone listening is interested in helping us set one up for - So I have Jeff Westbrook from the Mayfly Project. He's kind of the brains behind the operation. And another partner is Gordon Vanderpool. He is a coach of the US Youth Team as well as I am. He is from North Carolina. He is a full-time guy down there in the Smokies. Awesome angler. Great, great, great dude. Just good, good guy. If anyone's in that area, definitely look him up for a trip. You want to fish the Smokies because it's beautiful down there yeah and he's a fellow metalhead too.

Marvin Cash (39:51-40:02): You know what he is yeah he is for sure he's a very fishy dude I fished with him guys and if you're over kind of in the far western part of North Carolina like around Cherokee or Franklin you should definitely look him up but Josh are these events one day two day how long do they last?

Josh Miller (40:02-41:08): So far we're trying to do like - and Jeff actually came up with a platform it's pretty cool it's lodging and stuff and on trying to pick rivers that are gonna be fun and decent for catching fish. It's usually two days food and everything's included but it's just kind of something different we're trying out to get out to anglers that won't come to us because obviously travel is expensive and COVID and this and that and I've we've luckily had a lot of anglers that have traveled and fished and on a guide trip but I really enjoy the the setting of like the clinic setting and in teaching groups.

It's sometimes being one-on-one obviously is going to give you more one-on-one time but the groups are just so fun to be with we just have such a fun time and it's not just me teaching it Gordon and Jeff too so we have three anglers out there and the way we do it like maybe Gordon will talk to me doing a technique or vice versa. It's just kind of a fun way to do it. And I'm just, just have a blast teaching that way.

Marvin Cash (41:09-41:17): Absolutely. And so can you just kind of give folks kind of, we don't need the, I guess the chapter and verse of the syllabus, but kind of what are you covering in those two days?

Josh Miller (41:19-41:29): A lot of Euro-nymphing techniques and some dry dropper techniques, just kind of figuring out the water and catch a fish, just our thoughts on it and how we do it and how we approach the water. Yeah.

Marvin Cash (41:29-41:40): Got it. Yeah. Yeah. And we've touched on it a little bit. So you're one of the regional coaches for the U.S. Youth Fly Fishing Team. And I think they're what, they're four regional coaches. Is that right?

Josh Miller (41:42-41:48): Three. Yeah, I think three. Three or four. Brian Kimmel, me, and Gordon. Yeah.

Marvin Cash (41:49-41:53): And so how long have you been involved with the youth team?

Josh Miller (41:54-42:00): I've been there, I think it was at least six years at this point. I'm not sure.

Marvin Cash (42:00-42:03): Yeah. And so what do you do in your role as a regional coach?

Josh Miller (42:05-43:10): Well, I'm regional coach. What we'll do is I'll help. So the head coach is Gordon, and we have a very nice, very hardworking board that works behind the youth team that is incredible, volunteers. And that's the thing. Everything, everyone on youth, the coaches and instructors are all volunteer. We all just do this because we enjoy it. It does take up some time, but it's so awesome to be able to share this stuff with these kids.

So responsibility-wise, I am also the manager besides Calvin, but Calvin is the brain behind the operation. I'm not very good of a manager. I'm more of an on-the-water kind of teaching the kids. That's where my passion is. Shoot, I can't keep my paperwork straight at home. I can't, but so I'm more of the the technique let's let's figure stuff out, fishing, and couldn't do it without Calvin and Tucker and and the other the board there, they have the backbone.

Marvin Cash (43:11-43:26): Yeah. Very, very cool. And so for anyone who's listening that's, I guess 18, give or take an under, or the parent of someone who's that age who they think they might be interested in trying out for the team what does that process look like?

Josh Miller (43:26-44:55): So what we do is is clinics around the country before because of COVID everything's still kind of unfortunately not normal but we would do clinics like New York Pennsylvania North Carolina from out west and what we do is two three days of between 12 and 24 participants at these regional areas and the best water of the area with some of the best coaches in the United States like George will come help Joe Humphreys Devin Olsen Michael Bradley just I can name them forever but these world-class world anglers teaching these youngsters how to catch fish.

I kind of got involved to teach technique, but there's way better than me out there that could teach technique. For me, it was more to kind of share more than just fishing. Share how to respect your nature, how to respect your fellow angler, how to respect your gear. Just making these kids be helping them to see, maybe someone they look up to be a good role model and someone that they can give them good positivity good reinforcement on not just fishing. It's more than that for me.

Marvin Cash (44:56-45:14): Yeah, no, it's using fly fishing as a way to kind of teach life skills, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so did that kind of take some of the, I don't know if there was any pressure, but if there was any pressure kind of from going from you being a competitive guy to helping people become competitors, did that make it a little bit easier for you or was it harder?

Josh Miller (45:15-45:29): Yeah, no, it's easy, man. I just, I love every moment of it. I just love teaching and love being out there and sharing that passion for sure. And I hope that the people who have gone with me feel that way too after our days together.

Marvin Cash (45:31-45:38): Very neat. And I always ask all of our guests to share if they've got any projects or news that they want to share with our listeners.

Josh Miller (45:39-46:28): Yeah, I'm really excited to kind of, I really haven't told really anybody. I was approached to work on my first attempt at a book and I'm pretty excited about it. It's been a fun process, but it is challenging. It is hard to write a text. I'll put you in a little bit of my brain here. How do I put the angler in the situation, be able to write that, then be able to read that text and be in the situation and then understand the technique to be able to succeed? It's challenging, but it's really exciting. I'm excited to be a part of this challenge. It's an honor, actually.

Marvin Cash (46:28-46:31): Yeah, very neat. And so you're working on that with Jay Nichols, right?

Josh Miller (46:33-46:44): Yeah, yeah. This was Stackpole Books. Yeah, I hope it'll come out in a little over a year. So yeah, I look forward to it and I hope hope goes over well and people enjoy it. Enjoy my experience.

Marvin Cash (46:44-46:54): Yeah. Very neat. And can you kind of share kind of what part of competitive angling this deals with, or do you need to kind of keep that a secret for now?

Josh Miller (46:55-47:05): I'm not sure exactly how much I can say, but it's just going to be more of some techniques and maybe a little bit of experience. And hopefully people love it. Yeah, very neat.

Marvin Cash (47:05-47:09): Yeah, so 2023 Fly Fishing Show Circuit, you're going to be the guy signing books.

Josh Miller (47:10-47:12): Maybe not signing, maybe hanging out. How about that?

Marvin Cash (47:13-47:16): You better bring your Sharpie, dude. I'm telling you.

Josh Miller (47:16-47:17): Oh, no way.

Marvin Cash (47:20-47:30): Well, listen, before I let you hop this evening, why don't you let folks know where they can find more information about your guide service and the U.S. Youth Team and kind of the best way to catch up with you?

Josh Miller (47:31-48:24): Yeah, so Trout Yeah as our guide service, like you said, trout, Y-E-A-H.com. If you want a sticker, send me an email and I'd love to send you some free stickers. The US Youth's flyfishingteam.com if you want to check that kind of stuff out. I just want to put up a YouTube video and I do use Instagram and Facebook, but it's not my favorite thing, but try to what I try to tell people is, I try to be very connectable. If people want to reach out and ask questions, then my phone rings off hook probably too much, but I will. I love being immersed in it. So if people have questions or want to like ask something or reach out to me, my personal cell phone number is on my website. I just love taking questions and learning from anglers and teaching what I can.

Marvin Cash (48:25-48:36): Well, very neat. And I will drop all that stuff in the show notes. Beautiful. Thanks so much. Oh, you bet. Well, listen, Josh, I really appreciate you carving an hour away from the drum kit to talk to me tonight.

Josh Miller (48:37-48:53): Dude, that drum kit's so dusty down in the bass. I feel bad for her, man. I just want to take it out, polish it off. But now that not too many people know, but my first son was born in April. So drumming is out at this point.

Marvin Cash (48:55-49:02): Yeah. Maybe it'll be payback at some point for him keeping you awake in the middle of the night. Oh my goodness. Or he'll just play it and I'll be...

Josh Miller (49:02-49:50): Sometimes I can't believe my parents like was okay with that. I mean, I'd be in this little concrete basement, my dad's house and my mom, and we would have two full stacks 400 Watts or whatever, how many Watts and 2000 Watts of bass, two full bass stacks like there's blaring. Like, I'm like, my goodness, how are you okay with that for so many years? My dad's like, I recently asked him, he's like, I actually liked it. My mom was like, oh, it drove me nuts. I just don't know. And my wife, well, my girlfriend, but my wife now at the time, we would play music. I would open up this little divider wall between the basement and the garage. My wife would be there on the couch, get asleep. Like, how the heck? Who knows?

Marvin Cash (49:51-49:56): Yeah, well, hopefully you'll get a chance to dust off the drum kit soon. I really appreciate you taking the time, Josh.

Josh Miller (49:57-50:01): Absolutely. I appreciate you. Thanks for letting me be a part of this so much. Thanks.

Marvin Cash (50:02-50:15): Anytime. Take care. Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Again, if you enjoyed the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. Tight lines, everybody.