S3, Ep 161: Dana Lattery of Fly Fishing Bow River Outfitters

Marvin Cash: Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. On this episode, I'm joined by outfitter, photographer and videographer Dana Lattery. Dana and I discuss his journey on the water, in the field, behind the lens and everything in between.

I think you're really going to enjoy this one, but before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out.

A shout out to this episode sponsor - this episode is sponsored by our friends at Norvice. Their motto is tie better flies faster, and they produce the only vise that truly spins. To see for yourself, the folks from Norvice will be at the International Fly Tying Symposium on November 20th and 21st at the Parsippany Hilton Hotel. All the details are in the show notes.

If you can't make it over to the symposium, head over to www.nor-vice.com and check out all of Norvice's great products or check out one of their Sunday night live streams on their Facebook page. Now onto our interview.

Well Dana, welcome to The Articulate Fly.

Dana Lattery: Well, I'm glad to be here. We've been trying to make this happen for some time. So I'm pretty happy that we both could commit - probably more so me than you - and make this finally happen. I'm excited to sit and chat with you for a bit.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it too. And you're a super busy dude and you're like at the end of trout season, at the beginning of waterfowling season probably. And you know what we always do at The Articulate Fly? I always like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

Dana Lattery: Yeah, that's a good question because I think for me, and I've been thinking about it here, what would be the earliest? We used to go out on the lake with a ski boat and we used to fish for pike. I think a big thing about that is I never grew up hardcore fishing. It wasn't my - you know, I was three years old catching big trout and whatever. It was just kind of there and it existed.

But the hunting was kind of more my thing growing up than fishing, which kind of makes the story a little more interesting. But yeah, we used to sit on the back of the ski boat and chuck spoons away and catch some pike off of a little lake pretty close to where I live right now.

Marvin Cash: Very cool. When did you come to the dark side of fly fishing?

Dana Lattery: Well, we always kind of dabbled like we grew up sheep hunting, so we spent a lot of time - I call it horseback riding because that seems to be what it was for me as a youngster. We fly fished. I still don't think it resonated to me that there's a difference in the two kinds of fishing.

But probably the biggest thing for me was late in my teenage years as hockey started to get pretty serious, golfing was kind of the thing that hockey players did. And then I had a couple friends who took me down to the Bow River and said, hey, this is a world class river and you should try the fly fishing thing because it's pretty cool. And people come here from all over the world and we have it right here.

And if you know the Bow River, that's not the place to start fly fishing. So I don't remember how long it took me to actually catch a fish or learn what I was doing, but it just kind of became something else that I could do outside of the golfing, which I enjoyed, but I didn't really enjoy it.

And then that fly fishing experience kind of brought me back to the sheep hunting days where we went out many times. We never saw a sheep that was legal and never saw a legal ram. And that kind of reminded me of the fly fishing thing. And I just saw that challenge and you know, fast forward 100 years later and it became kind of what my life revolved around.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, really neat. Are there some folks that mentored you on your fly fishing journey that really kind of stand out?

Dana Lattery: Yeah, it's interesting because when you think of mentors, you think of somebody that you would sit there and look up to. And I definitely had a couple of those in a way. But I think some of those mentors were people who taught me things not to do. And I know it's kind of a backwards play on that, but you know, as I was quote, unquote, mentored, I look back and think to myself, I now do a lot of things that I realize they should have been doing, whether that's in the outfitting guidance stuff or just the fly fishing.

So a lot of that was kind of my own, you know, books. And slowly the Internet became available and trying to learn that way, but I don't know if I really had that one person who took me down to the river consistently and taught me what to do. A lot of it was on my own and just kind of trial and error.

But as you progress, I've got a couple really close friends, whether they got more time in the water than me or not, and which we can talk about later, how I don't think that matters. But you know, very close friends who I look to for mentorship in a more mature way right now than perhaps that one person who took me through the journey of fly fishing. I don't really think that existed for me.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, interesting. Everybody's got a different path. And you kind of also touched on, you know, for those of us who, for at least part of our lives, came of age without the Internet, you know, the way you learned how to do this stuff was pretty different.

Dana Lattery: Yeah, I would say right now it's like this. We live in this microwave world where you want a steak and you want it in 15 seconds. And I mean it's probably going to cook itself, but it's just not going to taste the same as if you were to marinate that steak and then put it on a smoker or put it in the barbecue or whatever.

The time that goes into making a good steak is forgotten now because everything's so instantaneous. And you know, just the idea of what you had to do to learn at the beginning was go and do it and be unsuccessful multiple times and probably more in that altruistic fashion of not catching fish or that learning just trying to figure it out from being there and not being like, oh, run home and type in the Internet, like how to catch a fish that's doing this.

So I did have the Internet at one point, but at the beginning it was definitely just time. I guess we could call it casting because I wasn't really catching much for a while there.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, I would imagine too, given your hunting background, that probably gave you a really helpful framework to figure out fishing too.

Dana Lattery: Yeah, it's interesting. I don't think I would convince any parents to bring their kids up through sheep hunting. I just, you know, like I said earlier, it was an interesting thing. And I loved horses and I was raised riding horses. And so that part to me was fun. And I think after a while I was like, oh, I don't know if shooting animals is what hunting is, I think you just go ride a horse and look around.

But I know for my dad it was something he was at that part of his hunting career where he wanted to do the ultimate thing and go on a sheep hunt and do multiple times, versus just shooting a white-tailed deer, which he shot many of. And so I kind of got introduced to that at that level, which is very hard.

But I think it also, because I was naive, I guess, or innocent to the fact that it happened any other way. So in going to fly fishing, I think like you were saying, that kind of parlayed into the idea of not giving up. Because I knew the challenge that existed and I was maybe naive to it. But I definitely think that helped me not give up on trying the dark side of fly fishing and becoming successful at it.

Marvin Cash: Very neat. And you know, it's super interesting to me and I'll confess. So I grew up and live in the southeastern United States. And until relatively recently, we didn't really have hockey down here. I mean, I like, I've gone to a few Checkers games here in Charlotte. But you know, it was just not kind of part of the culture. And I kind of missed out on soccer too.

But you know, before you got to where you are today as an outfitter, a photographer and a videographer, you had a professional hockey career. You want to talk a little bit about that and your journey as a professional athlete?

Dana Lattery: Yeah, I think funny, because it's something that was so profound in my life and it was my life, and it was my life until I was 26, 27 years old. So up until 15 years ago. And growing up in, you know, the cliche of a little Canadian boy growing up wanting to play in the NHL, wanting to play professional hockey was something that I just aspired to do. And I love the game and I pursued it to a level of making it a life.

And I was very fortunate. There's very few people that get through the rigmarole of all the sports and professional sports throw at you. And I guess I kind of made it. And what I learned quickly was things can be taken away pretty quick. And after my first year pro, I had a really bad knee injury. And just one that I just couldn't recover from.

And then what you also realize is that the hockey world is ever evolving and you're just a piece of meat. And you know, once you're out for a year with surgery and rehab, there's not too many teams that are knocking on your door, trying to stick beside you and watch you go through the process of healing and then bring you back.

And I think there was a moment there. I don't think. I know there was. There was a moment of sadness, and there was a dark time. And I know that transition out of hockey was - yeah. You just felt like everything you worked for in your entire life was taken from you or gone. And now what. Who am I? The hockey player who I'm now nobody.

And I could speak vulnerably about it. The notoriety or the fame or the feeling of going everywhere in the town or city you played in, and people knew you - you just became a nobody. And that was really hard to handle. And I think I didn't even know that that existed until it was gone.

And when you come back home and you're just like, hey. And then as time goes, that Dana with somebody quickly fades, and now you almost feel like you have to rebuild yourself.

And I think there's - you know, we could talk for days and days about the mental health aspect of professional athletes and hockey players. I just don't think today that there's enough attention paid to that side of things. And when hockey players are finished with the game, very few of them are equipped to jump back into society and just become a normal person.

So that's kind of how my hockey went. That's kind of how I decided, or I think fly fishing just really called my name loudly, and I rolled into that where it was, you know, the time on the river, for me was healing. And I know a lot of people can say that. A lot of people I spend time with in the river and the guide perspective, they touch - they catch on that. And it's how the river is healing.

And that was, for me, everything I knew was gone. And basically one MRI, one surgery, and I just realized I wouldn't be back playing the game that I loved.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's got to be. I mean, and also, you know, not just the transition for, let's say, all professional athletes, right, because you have a relatively short career, even if you have a long career, by I guess, you know, non-sports measuring sticks. But I would imagine too, you know, you had a whole lot of life wisdom that you had to pick up really pretty quickly in your early to mid-20s.

Dana Lattery: Yeah, the interesting thing about - so not every hockey player takes - like, I took a path that took me through university and I went to Western Michigan University and I got a scholarship there and I played hockey and I took my education. And so thankfully, that kind of gives you something to fall back on. Not that I really do what my education was right now, but that's the harder thing to come back to is that I think we were - well, they are. I know they're so spoiled in a way that you almost didn't even know how to make a dentist appointment because you never had to before, where people that worked for the team would just kind of do everything for you.

If you wanted to go to a restaurant, you always had a seat because you were professional hockey player, and they made a seat for you. And you needed your pants hemmed. You dropped them off at the rink and somebody took them to a place and got them taken care of.

And so when I talk about this jump back into society, it's like, you know, I haven't gone to a dentist for a year and my mom's like, you just call them and make an appointment. I'm like, yeah, I understand. But they told me that I couldn't get in for two weeks. And she's like, well, that's pretty normal. And I'm like, well, not normal for me. Like, I call a dentist, I get in tomorrow, right?

So there were these societal norms that I wasn't fitting into because I never had to experience them. And you're kind of grown up. You're 26 years old. But yet I think a lot of things that I had to experience were very - I guess I was very immature about it because I was like, acting like I was 16 years old. But looking back, I really didn't know any better. It was just the lifestyle you lived and what - it's all you'd known.

And then you're just trying to fit back into society and, you know, now grow up really quick and get a job and figure it out. And you're not going to just play a sport for a living. You gotta like, do something. You gotta get a job. You probably gotta get a wife, you gotta get a family. Like, it's time to grow up and get on with your life is what I often heard from a lot of people. Yeah, it's interesting few years that I had to transition back into the real world.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And it was interesting too, doing research for the interview that you, you know, as you were kind of losing one dream and finding another, that you also were very deliberate about living a life that will allow you to pursue your dream. And one of the things that I always find is interesting is, you know, there are lots of people that live their entire lives and never can make that commitment. And I was really kind of curious, Dana, where you found the courage to make that move, particularly at a relatively young age.

Dana Lattery: Yeah. Interesting. I never thought about it until you proposed a question for me. And I was reading that today before the podcast here, and I was like, man, is it - and it goes back to the sheep hunting and the fly fishing, and the naivety of - it's like, is it courage or is it naivety? Is it ignorance of maybe, like, saying to myself, well, normally I would work seven months, or I think our pay days in our season were 180 days. And then the other half of the year, you were training or doing whatever.

But I just kind of was like, man, I tried the 9-to-5-ish stuff. I guess I didn't even really give it an honest effort, but I just knew it wasn't for me. And I needed a few things. I needed - as weird as it is, I needed randomness in my schedule because hockey was very structured, but very random. Does that make sense?

Marvin Cash: Yeah.

Dana Lattery: Where, you know, you were like, you're so structured on your days, and then all of a sudden hockey would end and you could be - I got my freedom. I can do this, I can do that. And then when hockey came back, you just gave everything notice, like, okay, I practice at this, at this and this and this. But it was never a normal schedule. It wasn't like, oh, I get up and I go to school from nine to five and then come home and do whatever I want. It was like, well, some days were this and that, but the structure was there, but the randomness existed.

And then the other part of that was, I succeeded based on how much I put into it. So if I just cruised or existed through university and hockey there, I would have been whatever I was. And it wasn't enough for me. I wanted to be the best. I wanted to be better. I wanted to be a great teammate. I wanted to be the captain of my team. I wanted to be a leader of my team. And so those are all things that I had the ability to control through hard work.

And so when you take that stuff and you come back and put into a 9-to-5, I felt like, you know, I just was existing. I was punching a time clock, I was getting a paycheck. And you know, I just felt like it was dead end road and I made probably more money back then than I do now. But I have freedom and I have that ability to be creatively living my dream, I guess.

I also have the energy that I get from pursuing this passion of fishing and guiding and filmmaking and photography. And so when you brought this question up, I just remembered how many times I've had this conversation on my boat with people who are very wealthy but they have no free time.

And I go back to the naivety as a start of my guiding career. I was like, this is cool. I got the T-shirt. I'm a fishing guide. I can tell my buddies I'm a fishing guide. It's kind of, you know, the phases that a guide goes through.

And then what I kept hearing people say was, I don't have any free time. Like, I don't have free time. I don't have free time. Oh my goodness, I can't believe I took the day off to go on a fishing trip. I don't have free time. All super wealthy people and then eventually they just die.

And I was like, you know, and I remember this one guy, not mentioning names, but extremely well-to-do person. And we're driving to the mountains and we're - you know, he's just asking about my background and stuff. And I just said to him, I don't think enough people give a currency value to freedom. You know, so there's like you work a job and you make so much money and yes, we have to pay bills and we have to take care of our family, all those. I'm not neglecting that and suggesting living in a van down by the river and working for free. My financial goals are still there.

But value your freedom and say, you know, do I make X amount of money and I'm very wealthy and I have zero freedom? Well, there's a cost to that. Or do I make this much and I have this much freedom and there's a balance to that. And that freedom has - it has a financial value. I don't care what anybody says.

And so these are things that I just started walking through over the past 11 years of guiding and just seeing people that were like, so not happy, and they had all the money, but they had no time, and they never got to go do the things they love to do. They just worked.

And I don't think I had the courage, meaning I knew the consequences or I knew the outcomes, what they would be. I think it was the naivety. The reason that I love sheep hunting, the reason I love fly fishing at the beginning was I was just naive to how hard it really was. And then over time, maybe I could say it took me courage to stay doing it, knowing the consequences that, you know, could come out of not having a known paycheck, which is uneasy at times. You don't know where sometimes the next paycheck is coming from.

But you got your flexibility and you're sitting on the river and you're doing the things you love to do and pursuing your passion. And I think I'm still kind of working through it, but I don't know if that makes it any clearer or more confusing.

Marvin Cash: No, I mean, I get it. I think it's interesting, too, because, you know, it's about what living a good life is and what being fulfilled. And if you can make a lot of money and do something that fulfills you, that's great. I don't know. You know, I've had similar conversations. Not in a drift boat with people. And, you know, it's kind of interesting thing because I always kind of think about it in the sense of, you know, we don't understand. Sometimes like, if you wait until you retire, there are things that you could have done when you were 30 that you can't physically do now. Right.

Dana Lattery: So it's 100%. Yeah.

Marvin Cash: Right. It's gone forever. And I don't know, I sort of think about it and think that if you're really lucky, you kind of get to pick the hill you're going to die on. Right. And I think so many people go through life and they don't really exercise the control. And I don't mean control in a bad way, but I don't think they feel empowered to kind of put the hand on the rudder of their own life.

Dana Lattery: Yeah, it's - I think we've been raised to believe that you, after spending four years at American University, that, you know, there's a little difference in the American - the way the American kid is raised and the way the Canadian kid is raised, and not a good or a bad thing. But what I thought on there was just the - you were pushed to, like, you're a sophomore in high school. You need to pick your university. You got to go to school, you find your husband or wife at university, you get a degree, you get out of there, you start working, you get married to have kids, and blah, blah, blah.

And I watched, and I was kind of fascinated by it, and I just watched it, you know, where the kids and my friends I hung out with. It's like, this is what we do. This is what my parents did. This is what we do. And it's like - so it just, like you said, taking the rudder and controlling your life, it's just almost foreign to some people where I don't know if they believe they actually are allowed to do that.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. We could create a whole podcast series on this one, Dana, and come back every two weeks and probably do it for a year and not get to the bottom of it. Talking about your outfitting business, you know, it's interesting, right? So you've fallen in love with fly fishing and kind of rediscover your passion for the outdoors. And, you know, I know a lot of people who love being on the water, but they don't have any interest in being an outfitter. And I was really kind of curious about, you know, how you knew you wanted to start Fly Fishing Bow River Outfitters.

Dana Lattery: So, you know, when I started guiding and obviously, you know, you pay your dues and you work at the bottom of the barrel, and you get your trips where you get your trips. And you know, I had a couple outfitters who I worked for, and they did a lot of great things for me. They gave me an opportunity, they believed in me. They put me on the water, you know, as a new guide, and as I started to earn my keep, I think a lot of those skills I learned from playing hockey, where it's like, you know, when you go up to a new team and you just kind of put your head down and shut your mouth and just hone your craft.

As I was working for other outfitters and watching kind of the dynamics play out in the industry, I just felt that there was, you know, some common things that were missing. And I knew I had, you know, from my hockey days, I was kind of always the captain on the hockey team. And I liked that role. I liked the leadership role. I like kind of managing and organizing things.

And you know, I just came to a point where I was unhappy the way things were run with some outfitters. And I probably was more sad that there wasn't a better culture amongst the guide group working for outfitters. And that made me just want to take the plunge and say, hey, I want to do an outfitter. I feel I'm warranted in the time I've spent on the water and in the industry. And this isn't me just like, you know, I want a guide outfit tomorrow as I begin my journey.

And yeah, that's just kind of how I started Fly Fishing Bow River Outfitters. And it was probably just going to be me at first because I wasn't sure if, you know, if I was going to get even enough trips for myself. And you know, and then some of the guys came with me and we kind of mentored some younger, newer people. And we've just kind of built a pretty awesome group of guys out there that - yeah, it's just, it's kind of all falling into place. And it's been pretty special.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, that's neat. And so, you know, you were dissatisfied and you wanted to improve on things. So that tells me you've got a pretty distinct vision about what you think it takes to be a good guide. Do you want to share that with our listeners?

Dana Lattery: Yeah, and just like, not that the things other outfitters did were wrong. I guess it's hard to say right or wrong. They're just different. And that leads into that question of what makes a good guide. Because there's - I say to this, all people, all the time, that we're not for everybody and everybody's not for us. That's why there's chocolate and vanilla and rocky road ice cream and turtle ice cream and strawberry ice cream. There's not wrong. Strawberry's not wrong. It's just something I don't like. And I prefer the vanilla and the chocolate.

So when you want to define what is a good guide while you probably are guiding because your ability on the river to catch fish is there at one point. But like, we teach in our guide school, we tell everybody that 80% of your day has nothing to do with fishing. And 20% of your day is fishing. I feel a lot of guides that I know, you know, probably around here, whatnot. They focus 80% of their day on fishing and 20% of their day on the other things.

And, you know, we all fish. We know we don't control the fish. You know, we do our best to make the fish come and play every day, but some days they're just not there like they are other days. And so I think a good guide has the ability to be compassionate with his clients. I think a good guide has the ability to recognize right away that it is not his day or her day or their day, it is their client's day. And I think that's probably the biggest point to make there.

How I want to see fish caught today is not how fish may be caught today. Given the fact that we take people of all different skill levels, given the fact that we take people with all different preferences on how they want to fish. And when we quickly learn that this day is not about us, it's about serving the one or two or three - however many people you have out - the people that you have, it's about them and their day.

And so you have to, you know, we say it all the time, love people, catch fish. And I think that's where it comes from is you have to be able to just love strangers. You might conflict with them. It's your job to transform and understand your clients and not make your clients transform to you and your quirks and your personality. And I think everything else falls into place.

You got to learn your watershed. You got to become intimate with it. You got to know - there's all these things that you won't stay in the industry long if you don't. You know, you've done 40 trips in a row, and you've gotten skunked every day. There's, you know, you might want to up the what a fishing guide is a little bit, but we have to.

That stuff goes without saying. You know, it's like, I don't know why people talk about it so much, because it's like, yeah, obviously we're fishing. You need to know how to catch fish. All the other stuff is what differentiates the people who don't last and the people who stick around for a really long time. And that's just - you gotta love people, you gotta serve the people.

And when you genuinely do that, they feel it and then your day is awesome. And everybody has a good time. And you catch fish and you have laughs and you enjoy moments and you share memories. I can't tell you how many, just even this summer days where I'll be texting with clients and we'll just, you know, we get into rabbit holes of an inside joke that goes, you know, for eight hours and then we'll send a text and we just both dial off. And they were strangers at the start of the day, and now they've become friends. And now we have stories and memories.

And most of those stories and memories aren't even about fish. It's about all these other things that are happening on your day, on your water. So remember, 80% of your day has nothing to do with fish, and 20% of your day is fishing. And if you dial that in, I think you're going to be or are a good guide.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's interesting. It's funny you say that because I always tell people, I don't even think the movie A River Runs Through It is a fly fishing movie. Right.

Dana Lattery: Right.

Marvin Cash: I just, I'm like, it just happens to be the bicycle that they tell the story of family around. But, I mean, it has - to me, it's a great bicycle. But, you know, people like, it's a fly fishing movie. I'm like, it's not a fly fishing movie.

Dana Lattery: Yeah.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. It's interesting too, because I hear in that, you know, it's kind of like I would imagine playing sports at a really high level. There's kind of that baseline of competency that everybody has. And so everyone's looking for kind of the game changer. And it's all that 80% stuff you're talking about.

Dana Lattery: Yeah. You're not sitting in the NHL saying, what makes a good hockey player? What makes a good goalie? And then if somebody came back to you and said, well they stop the puck? It's like, no, here's - that's really, like, I didn't think that at all. Like, it's kind of that obvious at that level, yet the goalie is going to stop the puck. What makes a good goalie? Well, maybe he can play the puck, maybe he can - blah, blah, blah. Maybe he's a great teammate. Maybe he's done it. Maybe like there's then all of a sudden.

And I remember at the level I played at, we talked about it. It's like in the NHL, there's three awesome hockey players on each NHL team, everybody else is interchangeable with everybody in the minors. It's that other, that X factor, that 80% of what else they're doing is keeping them there. And that's the same thing here. You know what, what makes us different is, I don't know, we try to focus on the 80% of, you know, how can we serve our people? What can we control in the day and control that and make the experience on the water awesome.

And I just truly think it goes back to just loving the people in your boat at your hip, wherever you're guiding them, and everything else falls into place. And you're going to get people that aren't easy, you're going to get people that are frustrating. You got to figure out how to just love on those people. And it's the difference maker. I'm convinced.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And was that the kind of the genesis for the guide school was to basically kind of take your approach and find more people that it resonated with so you could grow your team?

Dana Lattery: Yeah. So it's funny question because it kind of worked like that in a way. It wasn't a hiring process. It was probably organically grew out of a necessity that didn't exist around here. And then it grew out of a passion for teaching, and it grew out of a passion for mentoring. And then as we kind of evolved through the guide school or putting the content together, we just realized that, you know, like, people ask us still, like, why do I need to take guide school? You don't. Do I need to take guide school to guide? You do not. You could go guide tomorrow. You're a guide. Congratulations. You're a guide. Are you a guide after guide school? You're not a guide after guide school. You're not. So six days of guide school. Day seven, you're not a guide. You're just as much a guide on day one as you are on day seven. You're not.

It's what it is. It's just giving you some mentorship from a lot of guides who have been in the industry for a long time with a lot of stories, and hopefully after those six days, you're like, wow, I've learned about the 80% that needs to take place while guiding the 20%. We can't teach you in six days. We can drop a lot of golden nuggets, but we can't teach you how to fish XYZ in six days. And nor should we try, because it is just time on the water that gets those, you know, people, young students, into their watershed, wherever that might be, and learning it.

But we're teaching that 80%. We're teaching them personality conflicts. We're teaching them safety on the water. We're teaching them how to respect other people and other guides when you're on the water. And hopefully we're just trying to make the river a better place for people to be on, because everybody has a story about guys cutting each other off and fighting and angry. And it's like, you know, there's times out there where I'm just like, this is the most unhappy place in the world right now is on a river fly fishing. Because guides are all up in each other's business. And it's like, no, this has to go back to what it should be. And that's a beautiful place to just hang out for a day.

So through the guide school, it's kind of more of maybe trying to make a little bit of a change in the industry and spending time with people. And like the fun guy said last year, he's like, this is an apply fishing school. This is a make people better school. And if that's the premise of what it is, then yeah, we're putting better people out there into the industry, which is only going to, in turn, make that fly fishing industry a little better place.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, we could use a little bit more of that. Not just in fly fishing these days.

Dana Lattery: Yeah, another podcast.

Marvin Cash: Well, see, we've already got two new series that we can do together, Dana.

Dana Lattery: Yeah, I know. We're going to be talking every night.

Marvin Cash: We'll have to get a satellite phone, though, so that I can record with you when you're like, in Oman and all these exotic places.

Dana Lattery: Yeah.

Marvin Cash: So where - I mean, that's plenty to keep most people really busy. When did you get this photography and filmmaking bug?

Dana Lattery: Well, I think I bought my first camera four, five years ago. I grew up with - I always made stupid little videos. And we had my grandpa had like a camcorder. And I wish I could go find those videos somewhere. And we would do like VCR to VCR. And then you would, like, one of them would be playing and the other one you'd record. Then you'd stop playing and then you fast forward. So that's how we made our cuts in our videos. And it was very archaic.

And then I just, I don't know, I just always enjoyed trying to capture moments and I would see things and I'm like, oh, that's, you know, I guess through loving to tell stories and exaggerating stories and trying to make people laugh and through all that stuff, it was like that kind of brought on a bit more of the video stuff where I could tell a story, make people laugh, make people feel emotion.

The photography was, you know, kind of at the same time. It's rare that people go into both because they're hard to do both. I'm not saying by any means I've nailed it or excelled at both, but I enjoyed both equally. And it was - I think it was four, four or five years ago, I borrowed my girlfriend's camera, and she's a wedding photographer, so she kind of had gear and I got to use it. And she'd be like, don't take it out on the river. And I was like, you know, I won't. And then I did, and I was like, oh, I don't want to get the camera wrecked.

And yeah, and then I just - I was coaching hockey in the winters at the time, and then, you know, that all kind of fell apart and I was like, this is what I want to do. And I want to be serious and I want to go put money into a really good camera and I want to just - I want to do that. I want to pursue this again. I want this to be, you know, so I can't say I've been doing it forever. I've kind of always had that want or that desire to make videos or take photos and just try to get better at it. But I think it all comes from - yeah, just wanting people to feel emotion, whether it's laugh, cry, smile, and I feel it. And what a good photographer can do is make people feel all the feels through looking at something or through watching a motion picture through a video.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, that's pretty neat. So, I mean, you basically were super analog when you were a kid, and then, you guess, probably got busy with hockey and then kind of got into the guide thing and came back to it. And I mean, that's pretty impressive to, you know, think about you picking up a camera again, seriously, four or five years ago, and all the content. I mean, I subscribe to Fly Fusion. I'm sure a lot of our listeners do. You know, even if folks don't know it, I know they've seen your movies and if 4. So, I mean, that's pretty crazy.

Dana Lattery: Yeah. I think if you love something and you just want to go make it your thing, then excuses are easy. I've told of them. I've said to Janine many times like, oh, I can't do this or I can't do that. Oh, that person getting this and that and this. And she's like, well then why do you focus on them? Just focus on what you want. And I - and the IF4 thing is an interesting story because I remember, I think it was 2010, 11. It was a while ago. I remember going by myself to watch IF4 in Calgary and I was just like, oh man, I love fly fishing films. And I used to love wakeboarding films and skateboarding films. And I was like - and then, you know, fly fishing was kind of the same genres per se.

And I remember sitting in the theater in Calgary and I was like, I know I will make a film. And at that time I didn't even - I might have had a GoPro version one or something. I don't think I had anything. And I was like, I want to be in this theater and watching a film that I made. And I don't know how that's going to happen, but that I just sat there and told myself, this is what you want to do, then go do it.

And life turns and rolls and eventually you're - you always feel like you're not good enough or you can't do it or you're not so and so or you're not that company. And it's like, eventually, and we got our film and then 2019 and that's - but now it's like, let's go do it again. Let's not quit or feel like I've arrived. Let's keep telling stories, taking photos.

Marvin Cash: Do you remember the first image you sold?

Dana Lattery: Yeah, I - I know. I thought about this all day.

Marvin Cash: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that to you.

Dana Lattery: No, no, no, no. Because the answer is it was probably a picture my mom bought off my SmugMug website I had of a horse show that she was in and I took pictures and nobody was buying them and I was so disheartened. And then I went home and there was - I'd made $3. It's like, you've sold the photo. And I was like, yes, you build a day will come. And then I saw that it was my mom. And I was like, all right, well, I guess it's a start. So sad to climactic, that story.

Marvin Cash: Well, how about I ask the question again and I ask you the first photo you sold, not to a family member.

Dana Lattery: I can't remember if it was, like, actual photos sold or, like, paid to go shoot photos, or is there a difference matter?

Marvin Cash: No, I will take either one of those because I bet the answer for either of those questions is good.

Dana Lattery: So the first, I remember when I quit playing or coaching hockey, there's an outfitter down in Wyoming called Table Mountain Outfitters, and they do - on the Sportsman Channel, they have a show called The Life. And one of my connections had called me and just, hey, if you want, they're looking for a camera guy for, like, five or six days to film for their TV show. And I heard you - you like to do videos or something. And I'm like - and I went into full cold sweats. Like, you know, like, you did it for fun, and it was cool, but now someone's actually putting money on the table, and it wasn't a lot of money, but it was okay. Now I have to - this counts. This is - we're playing for keeps now.

And I think the only way I got through that was from playing hockey and having to, like, perform in those situations where you've got 20,000 people and you're out there and you're like, oh, my goodness, this is, like, this is stressful. And, yeah, that's another podcast. The whole story of going down there. But nothing went right on all my camera gear, and I was - but to this day, I consider them family. And, you know, if Covid didn't exist, I could - they'll go there. I - yeah, I just made a great relationship with that group of people down there. And they, you know, they were my - they might not know it, but they're listening. And my first paid gig was them for sure.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And how long did it take you before you're like, you know, you're always evolving. Right? But you're like, now I feel comfortable when they call me with my bag to go do a shoot or to go do something. I've got this.

Dana Lattery: Yeah, it was after that, you know, I remember coming home and Janine was like, you know, I talked to her as much as I could down there. We didn't have a lot of service, but she knew how nervous I was. And I wanted to, I'm competitive, so I just wanted to do a great job. And I wanted to do not just a job that they expected, but I wanted to do above and beyond. And I wanted to build a relationship with them and I wanted them to hire me to come back. And when that happens, you know, okay, I did something right. They're bringing me back.

And they brought me back the next spring. We went on - they have a bear hunting lodge. And I was just like, yeah, it just - a lot of emotion happened on that trip where I just felt, I can do this. I knew I could, but I didn't totally believe in myself and just going there and I, you know, I think you have to get paid to say because it puts a different kind of pressure. You can do free stuff all you want. So when someone says, hey, you know, here's $700, take me fishing for the day, well, now it becomes real, right? You're - someone put the currency on the table and said, now show me where the fish are. Or somebody paid you X amount of money to come and shoot content for a day. And they're saying, you know, now you've got to do this.

Because I was, I almost said I probably would have went there for free. And then I caught myself and I realized until you're paid and then the stakes are high and then you got to see what you're made of. And I know after that trip I was like, I - you know, I got a long, I still have a long, long ways to go. And the cool thing about fly fishing and filmmaking and photography, it's just an always growing learning. You don't ever arrive.

And but that trip there was like, I came home and I, you know, held my head a little higher and I was like, okay, like, who's next? I want to do this again. I want that pressure. I want the high stakes. I want to keep improving. And then a lot of the projects I did in between paid gigs is passion projects. And so a lot of my fly fishing films - that's zero percent funding income. Nothing. It was just me passion. But that's the stuff where you get to do things like tell stories and you get to do it for - there's no stakes in the game, but you're getting and making yourself better and honing your skills. So at the next paid gig you're like, okay, I'm a little, I cost a little more now because I have done this, this and this right and you feel comfortable doing that because you're merit based and the things that you've done.

But if you just sat here and said, I got a paid gig, I'm waiting for another paid gig, I don't know, you're just not doing yourself a service or the people who are hiring you.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. It's interesting because, I mean, it clearly relates to podcasting, right? Because you got to learn the gear, right. And then kind of learn the storytelling piece of the puzzle. And then you learn all this thing about how to process the audio. And all of that stuff creates this really nifty positive feedback loop. Right. Where you just get better at all the pieces. Because it just makes you think about different stuff. So it's kind of like, want to learn how to use Final Cut Pro, make a movie, right? Yeah.

Dana Lattery: And you sit down and you butcher it. And you go on YouTube and you butcher it and you go on YouTube and you try things and you keep your ears open and your mouth shut is probably the best thing you can do is just when you're in a room full of professionals, you just shut your mouth and listen. And there's golden nuggets left, right and center. And you're just like, I'm listening, I'm listening. And I'm just gonna go home and get better.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Are there any folks that you pay particular attention to?

Dana Lattery: They always say, don't meet your heroes, and I find that that's kind of untrue. And in some of the outdoor space, as far as like, there's people, I love their work. Some YouTube guys that I really just, you know, they're not outdoor industry guys, but they're just - I don't really have anybody that I just totally geek out on, but I think there's a guy on YouTube, Danny Gevirtz, and he's nothing to do with fly fishing. And he just, you know, has a YouTube channel. He gets out and he does stuff. But I think the attraction there and finding some people, you just follow their journey is just that the vulnerability piece. And they're not, they don't have a facade, they don't have a, you know, hey, this is me. I'm this guy. And then you meet them and they're a total, you know, a-hole to you. And to everybody.

And I've heard this through doing different things. It's like, oh, I really like this guy. And then these people are like he's a really, you know, dud person or blah, blah, blah. And it's like - so my dreams kept getting crushed and people that I was looking up to, and it's like maybe I just stopped meeting them. And then my innocence and my naivety is good.

But yeah, I don't know. I just really watch. I watch, I observe, I observe comments. I observe the way that people - I try to follow things that I don't agree with because I think that helps grow me as a storyteller. And, you know, the photography, videography side. And what I mean by don't agree with, like, not they're making like films I don't agree with the story, but the style. Right. So I'm trying to say, why are they shooting like that? I don't get it. And it's - I want to figure it out, you know, So I try to branch out and follow people I don't totally agree with their style just because I think it helps pull me out of my comfort zone. Yeah, I don't think I really have a - as sad as that sounds, thinking about it.

Marvin Cash: But, you know, talking about style, how would you describe your style of photography and filmmaking?

Dana Lattery: So I - I believe in, like, my style is - I think photography is a little candid. I like to - I mean, one of my favorite lenses is a 70 to 200 and it's a long lens and it allows me to kind of be away from people. And so just capturing emotion. It's what I love to do is like capture emotion. So through my photo, I've captured someone's emotion, whether they've laughed or cried or stoic or whether you've captured an emotion in an animal, whether you like - yeah, I think that's my style.

And I try to be like, in my editing and stuff, it's like I want people to feel like you're in the photo. Like, it's like it almost has this like ultra real feel. Like you stare at it. And the longer you stare at it, the photo starts - like it just becomes real and you're - yeah, I don't want people to just scan by my photos. I want them sit there and just feel. What do you feel? What is this person doing? How does that make you feel?

And then in my videos, because the videos you can make people feel through narrative. You can make them feel through music, you can make them feel through motion of your camera. And again, I just - I want to tell stories through emotion. And I want people to sit down and just be like, wow, that's vulnerable. You know, I guess that's how you could say it. My style is emotional and vulnerable. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Marvin Cash: No, it does. And I mean, and, you know, it's interesting because, you know, I've seen your films. I have seen some of your photography and Fly Fusion, and we've talked about it. You have this affinity for storytelling and connection, and it drives the content that you want to create. And I was kind of curious if you were, as we would say in the south, hatched that way. Or is it a skill that you taught yourself to become a better photographer and videographer?

Dana Lattery: Yeah, I think - I don't know how you teach yourself. I think you can grow yourself. And I continually study, you know, people who are great storytellers and directors and things that - and the movies that I'm attracted to, it's like there's - some of them are weird and some of them are just telling a story. And it's like, how did that make me feel? Why did that make me feel that? So those are things I do to grow my storytelling. But I don't think - I don't know. And maybe that sounds like super depressive. If someone out there is listening, they're like, I want to be a storyteller. And when I say, you can't do it. I - that's also not true. But I don't know how you would teach somebody to be a storyteller. I think it's just a natural.

I mean, we all know you go sit down with a buddy and he starts telling a story, and you just are like, falling asleep. And it's three hours later and they haven't got to the punchline, and then the story just kind of falls off a cliff and you're like, so that was just - that was it like, you know, and they're like, oh, yeah. So there's an art of bringing everything back. But, yeah, I think if you genuinely just enjoy people, you enjoy making them laugh, you enjoy bringing people through all the emotions, and that's how you're telling stories, is touching on all those things.

And so, I don't know, probably would say you're hatched that way or - I don't really know. You can hone that stuff. I just think you - you know, I watched a lot of films, a lot, like, short films. Everyone, like, I'm just watching, watching, watching, and I think a lot of films fall short because in my - in my head this is my opinion is they don't tell a story and I don't - I start watching them and it's like, oh, cool, it's fish porn. And I'm like, I don't, I'm not connecting. And then I'm out. I don't finish watching their film. But I don't know if more people are like that or that's just me.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. I would also say though, I think fly fishing movies have evolved certainly. Right. So that, you know, I think in the last, I don't know, two or three years, you know, the caliber the storytelling in IF4 and F3T is way better than it was when those festivals started.

Dana Lattery: Yeah. And a lot of viewers are pushing against that because they just want to see big fish and they want to see - and I know like speaking of our - of 9 Foot Rod of filming Oman, like we came home and we didn't get the big fish. Spoiler alert if you want, if you haven't watched it yet. But it was a struggle that I had because I felt like I failed. I wanted IF4 and I didn't get the 200 pound, blah, blah, blah. I didn't get the exotic permit that we went after. I didn't get the GT that broke my 14-weight fly rod.

And I'm like, you know, I literally put the hard drive - we got home like middle of February. I put the hard drive away and I was done. I didn't even want to, I didn't even want to review the footage. I didn't want to look at it. I felt like we failed. So all summer as we struggled through, or I say we, but it's me as I struggled through what to tell and oh, maybe we'll just like fabricate a story about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or maybe - and then I remember when it was due, December 1st, like entries were due to - and I said to myself, okay, you got November. That is your month to do this. You figure out your film.

And I was like - and I just said to some of the guys that went with us, and I said, well, here's how it's going to go down. I'm just telling the story exactly as it happened. There's no big sexy fish that I think we all think we needed because it didn't happen. And we're literally just going to tell the story exactly the way it unfolded. And if Fly Fusion or IF4 doesn't want it, then they don't want it. I - you know what I mean? Like, it is what it is.

And as I got going into the film, I was told to keep it at eight minutes if we wanted to have a chance, because there was only two films selected that were over 13 minutes, and everything else had to be eight minutes. Well, I got to eight minutes. I couldn't finish the story. I'm like - so I think I hit 14 minutes. And I said, you know what? Whatever, it's done. We told the story of the, you know, true reform, how it happened. And yeah, and I sent it off, and they were, I think, you know, 14 and a half minutes later, they emailed me back and they were like, we want this.

And I truly believe that the story aspect was something that had been lacking for many years in a lot of those films. And it's really fun to go and watch now and see these really good stories being told, because I think that that, to me, means that the festival is upping its game where people can now tell stories through fly fishing, and it will resonate with more people than just small group of fishing people.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Do you have any upcoming films you want to share with our listeners?

Dana Lattery: Those come to me in the middle of the night right now. I've got a billion ideas. I just don't, you know, nothing - that's really - what I will say is, well, Covid hurt. That hurt us just for travel, but we are definitely going back to Oman. So, yeah, I don't know if there's ever been a sequel in IF4. But definitely we're gonna go back. So it'll be - that'll definitely happen. It might be a year, but I don't know when we can get there.

And we're supposed to go to Greenland in September for Arctic char. So I don't know. I don't know what that'll be as far as the film, but we'll do something probably there, and then I'm sure I'll come up with some ideas in the next few months to try to tackle next summer.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Well, I have one more film question I want to ask you before we kind of talk about some of the other stuff. And in Wind Down Tonight, and, you know, one thing that I always kind of think about in fly fishing movies is, is it possible to make a fly fishing movie and not use a drone?

Dana Lattery: Right. So funny. We're talking about that the other day when it's like years ago, it was like somebody had a drone and people were like, oh, my goodness. Some, you know, like, how did they spend that money on a helicopter? And then drones - it just way overdone. I have two drones and I don't even want to use them because I'm just like, you know, I guess it's good for establishing location. But after that it's like, zoom, drone, zoom drone, zoom dolly, dolly, zoom drone, drone. And then the film's over. It's like, well, that was shot on one drone. To answer your question. I hope it is. I hope.

Marvin Cash: I don't know, maybe Robert Redford will recut A River Runs Through It and put drone footage in it. Kind of like the George Lucas Star Wars corrections, right?

Dana Lattery: Yeah, exactly right. It's like the drones are overdone, people. We know how you're doing them.

Marvin Cash: So, you know, obviously, in the Northern Rockies, your fishing season winds down, which means that Thursday Night Live is going to be coming back soon. And, you know, for our listeners that don't know, you know, one of the things that you and Tim do, I think this will be what, your fourth season.

Dana Lattery: Yeah, Season four. Yeah.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. You get together on Thursday nights kind of during kind of traditional tying season. And you know, you did in person and you taped it and then you Covid pushed you to kind of all digital. But, you know, I was wondering if you wanted to tell folks a little bit more about it. I think you're still soliciting material kits for season four.

Dana Lattery: Yeah. So Thursday Night Live, that's a passion project. It's super cool that it started. It started five years ago when I was working at a guiding out of a fly shop and the guy there wanted me to run his marketing stuff. And, you know, we were trying to figure out what to do and how to kind of like, you know, push the marketing game of a shop. And they were doing a tie night on Thursdays and a couple, three, four people would show up and being a, you know, techie nerd, and I was like, hey, let's live stream this. And maybe that would be cool.

And so, like, there's - and I said, it's Thursday and we'll call it Thursday Night Live because it's catchy. And so the archaic five or six shows we did way back was so bad. Like, looking back, I mean, at the time, I thought they were incredible. I was so proud of them. I think that speaks to a lot of the journey is like, just let the journey be the journey. You are right where you are right now because you're supposed to be, and you have the skill set you have and just do what you can with what you have. And then when you're ready, you'll move forward and then do the best you can with what you have at that moment and then move forward. And then when you look back like I am right now, it's like, oh, it was so bad. Well, at the time it's what I had and it was great and it was awesome. And five people maybe joined in and it was like -

And so we tried to get it out of the shop and just put it at a brewery because we wanted more people to come and we wanted that atmosphere of like having, you know, drinking a beer and just kind of very casual social event. So then the next year, when we left the shop, I had just met Tim that summer and I knew he liked tying flies and that's not my jam. And I'm running the computers and the cameras. So I said to Tim, like, would you ever be interested in doing this? I'm going to take this and put it at the brewery? And he said, yeah, he's never been on camera and he's never led any fly tying stuff. And so I'm like, who cares, man? Like, just stay true to yourself and whatever, you know.

And Tim's phenomenal at tying. I mean, he's only gotten better. So we started the first show at the brewery and I think we had three or four people come to the brewery and we put together the kit so the material that you would need to tie your flies. And we would do two patterns every night and we would sit there and cut all the material and put the hooks in bags and we did 30 for every night, just hoping people would come. And, you know, nobody came and we had a cut.

And so the idea was we'll stream it live and we'll be in person. Cool atmosphere, social events and more. So we wanted to bring the people of Calgary together into a place where like, nobody's judging you if you've never tied flies. It's just totally free. It's our get back to the community. So we kept doing it. And I remember we would drive into Calgary and we'd be like, what are we doing? This is such a waste. Like, this is so stupid. It's costing us money and time. And we just kept going. And then it would build and we'd have 30 people come to the brewery and we'd hand out all of our kits and then we'd have more people come and we didn't have enough kits.

And then the next year, we started season two. Every, you know, awesome. And all of a sudden, Covid hit. And we're like, you know, at that time, if everybody remembers back when it was like, oh, my goodness, they're locked down. Covid's gonna end the world. And so we're like, what do we do? I'm like, well, I don't know. We're just - we've been live streaming, so we can keep live streaming and we'll just do it out of my basement. And we'll be like Wayne's World - shout out to Tim doesn't know who Wayne's World is. So it's pretty funny. But, like, we'll do it in our basement.

And so we set up our first like, at home episode. And I said, okay, Tim, you're there, tying, and I'll sit behind you and run all the computer and stuff. He's like, you're not kidding. You're not just sitting there. I'm not just sitting here by myself. Like, I don't have people to talk to. This is really awkward. He's like, sit beside me. And I'm like, I don't - not sitting beside you. Like, I don't know why I would sit there. I'm running the computers. I need to be out of sight, out of mind.

And so he convinced me to sit there with him and we did. And then, you know, Covid got worse and we kind of had to - we got a few more cameras and blah, blah, blah. We just kept trying to make the show better. And then - and it grew and the online audience grew because people had nothing to do. They were locked down. The show is really fun. We tie flies and we just talk about life and we just engage with everybody who comes and watches.

So last year we had a lot of people who weren't in the area because we kept giving kits away. We'd put all these kits at the brewery and then the locals could go pick up a free kit. So we kept doing our give back. And then last year, people from further away, like Americans and stuff, they wanted - they wanted to buy the kits. So we sat - did them all at the start of the year. And we pre packaged and we made - so we did 20 episodes. So we did 20, whatever, 1600 packages. And so then we sold them. We're like, okay, well, come by a season, you get all 20 episodes in each bag. You're going to get two patterns, you're going to get those flies fully tied and then you're going to get material to tie each of those flies two more times.

And we sold out right away and we kept 20 kits back and we still kept putting them at the brewery so the locals, you know, in Calgary could go on Thursdays and pick up a free kit. And yeah, we just kept doing that and I just went through all the stats here and we, last year we reached I think it was like 630,000 people.

Marvin Cash: Holy cow.

Dana Lattery: The 20 some episodes that we did. So it's just brought together a really cool, awesome group of people. You know we - it's almost like a novelty show. Like we do dumb things and tie flies and we have a baking cam and I don't know, it just seems to evolve every week as we get bored in the winter up here. And so yeah, we're coming into season four and we're putting together 160 kits this year and yeah, people can go online and fill out the form and then we should have them for sale in a couple weeks, depending when this episode airs. But sometime mid November. And yeah, watch. But you don't need the kits. You could just watch for free and join in and watch. Laugh at us and make fun of us and we'll post the material list so people who have their own stuff, more than welcome. Yeah, it's totally free but if you want a kit, they're out there too. And that's kind of how Thursday Night Live has evolved.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, and I'll drop a link to all that stuff in the show notes. And are you guys able, are your Covid restrictions relaxed enough so that you can go back into the brewery and do live and live stream or are you going to be just live streamed?

Dana Lattery: So, so they are and they aren't. They're still doing all the, some restrictions and stuff. And I just first, so I built a studio in my basement last October because I'm like we're going to be here. So I think it would be too hard for us to leave the studio because it's just, it's all set up and it's you know, to try to get that level of production at the brewery. I don't know how we would do it. So we've kind of said we're gonna be here. We might go like every fifth Thursday to the brewery.

Marvin Cash: Yeah.

Dana Lattery: But what we will have is what we're going to call satellite brewery. So if anybody out there wants their fly tying club or whatever, you could go to a brewery, they'll put it on the big screen and you can sit there with all of your buddies and you know what I mean, like, have your fly tying night at the brewery with the show on and we'll teach you how to tie the flies and drink beer. And so, I mean, and that's not geographically restricted. So, yeah, anybody wants to do that, get a hold of us, we'll tell you how to do it. And then we'll probably have one or two in Calgary too.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, I mean, I imagine what, they're just going to basically push YouTube to their television. Like you do when you watch YouTube on a TV at your house, right?

Dana Lattery: Yeah, it's streamed on Facebook and YouTube and if people do set up a satellite brewery, we have the ability to patch people in. So like when you watch the New Year's Eve show and they're like, we're going to go live, so whatever. So we can bring you and all of your people at your brewery on the show and just, you know, through an iPhone or whatever - whatever the other phones are Samsung or - yeah, it's really easy to patch people in. So I think if that grows, it'll be really cool. Like you could get people from Texas and Florida and California and North Carolina just going to the different breweries, seeing who's all watching. And so, yeah, we're up for all that. And I think it's a really cool idea.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, gosh, I was thinking small. I was like, gee, Dana, why don't you just get a big projection TV and put it in the back of your house and have a keg of beer and let people tie in the backyard under spotlights.

Dana Lattery: We probably will do that too.

Marvin Cash: Well, I really appreciate you spending time with me this evening. And before I let you go, you want to let folks know the best way to reach out to Fly Fishing Bow River Outfitters, to book a trip for next season. And you know, all the best kind of social media channels to follow your many, many adventures. Kind of behind the camera, in front of the camera, on the water and in the field.

Dana Lattery: Yeah. So flyfishingbowriver.com is our website. The border is open, so we've had it closed for two years and it's really sucked. We missed our American friends. So I know that - come January is when most people start planning their summers, so I suspect we'll get booked up pretty quick. But if anybody just wants to call and chat about what we do or where we fish or what our fisheries are like. Calgary is super easy to fly into. It's an international airport. A lot of places fly direct. You can stay at a five star hotel, you can eat a beautiful steak dinner. Your wife doesn't even have to come fishing. She can go shopping in Calgary for the day. It's like the perfect destination for everybody.

And so on Instagram or Facebook, just look up Fly Fishing Bow River Outfitters. You'll find us there. And if you want to kind of follow along on my adventures, it is First Cast, Last Cast, or just search Dana Lattery. And that should show up there too. Easy enough.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, absolutely. And I'll drop all those goodies in the show notes and I'll also link back to my interview with Tim, which covers a lot more of just kind of the basic Bow River and where you guys guide and all that kind of good stuff.

Dana Lattery: Beautiful.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Awesome. Well, listen, Dana, I really enjoyed our conversation and I appreciate you carving a little bit of time out for me this evening.

Dana Lattery: Absolutely. Marvin. I'm grateful that I could be on your show.

Marvin Cash: It's been great. Thanks so much and have a great evening.

Dana Lattery: Cheers.

Marvin Cash: Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you again. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. And thanks again to our friends at Norvice for sponsoring the podcast. Be sure to head on over to www.norvice.com and check out all of their great products. Tight lines, everybody.