S3, Ep 53: Capt. Josh Pfeiffer of Frontier Anglers

Marvin Cash: Hey, folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. On this episode, I'm joined by Captain Josh Pfeiffer, 2020 Orvis-endorsed freshwater fly fishing Guide of the Year and owner of Frontier Anglers.

Josh shares his fly fishing journey, and we take a deep dive into the trout angling opportunities in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, as well as smallmouth fishing in East Tennessee. I think you're really going to enjoy this one, but before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items.

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There wouldn't be a show without listeners like you, and we appreciate your support more than you know. Now onto the interview. Well, Josh, welcome to The Articulate Fly.

Josh Pfeiffer: Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to our conversation. And we have a tradition on The Articulate Fly. We always ask all our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

Josh Pfeiffer: Okay. I would say that my earliest memory would be, my dad was always a big fisherman. Never really fly fish, always bass fish, fish tournaments, the sparkle bass boats and things like that. But he knew that I like fishing rivers and we had watched shows on fly fishing. We'd watch trout fishing and Montana, whatever. And so I kind of got this urge to do it.

Well, he took me to a trout farm up in Townsend, Tennessee. But he never told me that we were going fishing. He took me and my brother and I said, where are we going, dad? He said, well, your mom wants us to go shopping. I said, shopping? He said, yes, she needs us to go pick out new underwear. And I was like that's what we're gonna do on our weekend is go shop for underwear.

So we're on the way, and I look back in the back and there's rod. I said, dad, why are there rods in the back. Because we had one of those early 90s OJ Broncos. And he said, oh, that's me and Rylo were fishing a tournament the other night, and I forgot to take him out, and I said, okay. And so the more we drive, I'm like, where are we going to get underwear? Like, all the way in Townsend?

And so then he was like, oh, by the way, we're not actually going shopping. We're gonna go catch some trout. And so my mom actually still brings photos out from time to time of us going to the trout farm. And as well as you pay by the fish. And so later on, my dad would always tell me. He's like, man, you guys had such a ball that day. I just didn't have the heart to take y'all away.

He said, the thing is, I just ran out of money. I didn't have any more to give that guy, because every fish you caught, you were not allowed to throw back. You had to pay for it. And every fish was like $5. And he said, I think I ended up spending like $250 on you kids that day, just because we were just having a ball, and it was one of those places you didn't need anything but a gold hook. And that was that, because they had never seen anything. And that's why he wanted you to keep every fish, so that they never got smart. At least that's what he said.

But yeah, and that was. I still remember it. I still got pictures of us, my dad kind of teaching us how to reel fish in. We didn't quite get the hang of it, so we just walk up the bank and drag it. So it was pretty awesome. My dad was cool like that.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, that's pretty neat. So when did you kind of officially come to the dark side of fly fishing?

Josh Pfeiffer: So it wasn't long after that. Actually, it was probably seven or eight maybe. We were, it was when Walker Chronicles came out, it was like the first or second season of that show. And I just remember my dad every morning, right before going to the lake, we would watch fishing shows, whether it was Jimmy Houston, Bill Dance, whatever. And my dad and I have always just been eating up a fish.

And then Walker Chronicles came on. And they're somewhere in the Everglades fishing or fishing for bonefish. I can't remember what they're fishing for, but I just thought, oh my gosh, that's so cool. Sight-fishing with a fly rod. And that was it. I was like, dad, I want to learn how to fly fish.

And that kind of, my dad, not being a fly fisherman, he said, well, I don't know anything about fly fishing. So I was like, well, can we not just go somewhere and try it? And again, my dad, being the guy that he was, decided to go get a couple of cheap rods and had the old rubber hip boots. And he took me up in the park and we tried a little bit and failed miserably.

And it was on the way back from one of those trips, we actually ended up stopping in at Little River Outfitters. And those guys were cool and they were super helpful and really kind of helped us get started. Picked out flies for us, showed us how to rig up leaders, tie on tippet, everything. Which, the tippet thing is another story.

But after that, living at the base of the Great Smoky Mountains, we kind of got away from fishing the lakes. And my dad sort of got into the fly fishing thing and started spending more time up in the mountains fly fishing the small streams of the Smokies. So that kind of pushed it right there. And it was just every weekend we were up there, if it was nine months out of the year, eight months out of the year we would try to slide up there, or the other three months we were somewhere duck hunting.

So I was always either on a pond somewhere with him in the wood, deer hunting, or I was in the mountains with him. So that kind of started it. So I guess my simple answer would be Walker Chronicles is kind of what got me started into it.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, that's really neat. And it's really clear you have a special sporting relationship with your dad. Who are some of the other folks that have mentored you on your fly fishing journey? And what did they teach you?

Josh Pfeiffer: It's kind of funny that back when I started, there weren't really a lot of people that we knew. Just because we were so involved in the bass world, we didn't really know a lot of folks that even knew me about fly fishing had fly rods, nothing. We kind of just went out and failed on our own and did it enough. And that kind of led us to stopping out Little River Outfitters.

And so I would say that those guys are probably the ones that really helped us get into it and kind of showed us the ropes, what we needed to do and whatnot. And with those guys, it wasn't really about like, hey, we're just trying to sell you guys stuff because we want you to be just customers. They actually kind of broke things down and spent time with us, every trip. Even Daniel Drake, who's one of the owners there, when I was a kid, he was there and he was helping me figure things out.

And we had a couple of guys that long time ago. They were guys in the park and older gentlemen that we had just come across while fishing that kind of gave us some tips and helped us kind of approach the stream a little bit differently. And there's one guy named Tim that was a guide up there. He was pretty helpful in getting us kind of centered on how to approach the stream, not just walking into it and fishing, but kind of how to read it a little bit more, taking your time.

A guy named Jack Gregory, who wasn't a guide but just an awesome fisherman, who probably, if you've caught a big fish in the Smokies, there's a good chance that he had some influence on that. I know he did for me. And so a lot of the guys, the shop and just people that we've run into while fishing, some just random strangers that gave us some tips. But other than that, it's kind of something that we took on ourselves and just kind of learned it as we went.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, very neat. When did you get the guide bug?

Josh Pfeiffer: That was probably, let's see here. Back in 2000, early 2000s, I guess, maybe 2006 or seven is when I started. I knew I want my friend Michael and I back in middle school. I mean his dad and my dad both fished tournaments together. So we were always fishing, riding our bikes to ponds and creeks and whatnot.

We always said we want to be pro fishermen. Always wanted to be in that lifestyle. Then we kind of realized that once we started fly fishing, there's really not like pro fly fishermen. I mean, I guess there is nowadays, but back then there wasn't. And so I didn't even think about being a guide, but I knew I wanted to do something in the outdoors.

And it was probably 2006, I think it was, I was approached by a guy at a lodge up here. And he said, they did some kind of trips on a creek that they stopped. And they said that we need some extra guys because we, in the summertime we get more people and we would like some help. And so that kind of. I got my foot in the door and then that kind of led to me start my own company.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Really neat. And because I guess you did that for what, three or four years and then you started Frontier Anglers.

Josh Pfeiffer: Yeah. So I, for about, I think it was like two years we did it. And it was just. I was looking to try to do something a little different. So, being from the bass world, getting into the fly fishing world and Tennessee is just a huge destination for smallmouth. I actually grew up right down the road from the Little River here in Maryville. And the Little River has smallmouth. And it's got all sorts of different panfish and whatnot.

And so I was always kind of down there in high school playing around, catching smallmouth, started piddling with fly fishing a little bit. And then as I started guiding to that lodge, I kind of thought, there's not a lot of folks guiding for smallmouth. But we have them everywhere. And the game is trout around here. You got the Great Smoky Mountains, you've got the tailwaters. The Clinch is known for its state record brown trout.

So everybody's focus is on trout. And don't get me wrong, I love trout, but I thought, man, nobody has gotten for smallmouth. And it's such an awesome fish. And so we kind of. I kind of started doing a little bit more with smallmouth on my own as I was kind of leaving the lodge and doing my own thing. It just kind of led into, we just did smallmouth. And I was getting more people to do that over trout. And it's kind of led us to where we are today.

And that was probably. We started our guide service in 2008, I believe. Yeah, 2008. And it's progressively grown since then. And we've got some great guys working with us now. Gary Troutman, Chris Wright, and Doug Moore. And those guys are all professional, and they're very personable guys, and I know their stuff and love being on the water.

So there's been some other guys over the years who have helped us out a little bit at a time. And so, to be able to find some guys who are trustworthy and the biggest thing is they show up. They show up on time. They have boxes full of flies, rods rigged and ready to go, like they want to be there. That to me, that's the biggest deal. And so it's been a huge blessing.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, that's really awesome. And so did you have to kind of figure out the guide? And then they kind of. I don't think we officially have outfitters in this part of the world, but you're really an outfitter if you're running almost half a dozen guides. Did you kind of have to figure that out on your own, or do you have some people that kind of helped you along the way?

Josh Pfeiffer: I had some buddies that guided in other places, and they had some guys working for them. And it's one of those things where it's not a typical 9 to 5. And so I think I just had to get out of that mindset of being an employer, and it's not like it's a very unique business. So these guys don't necessarily work for us as much as they work with us.

I mean, they specifically work with our company, but I give them free range if they want to take trips. If they don't, they tell me, hey, I've got people coming in town. And we just kind of work together as a team on that. But it definitely. There was some influence from some of my buddies. One of my buddies, Patrick, up in Bristol, he runs South Holston River Company and he's got a bunch of guys working for him.

And so we talk a bunch about business and techniques and things like that. It's important to kind of have that connection with other guides and not just guides, but other different businesses. Actually, one of the guide services in the Smokies for Hiking. I talked to them and we kind of talked about different things, but it's definitely not your typical 9 to 5 that you're clocking in, you're clocking out, your day really stop when you go to sleep.

Because like last night, me and one of our other guys, Gary, we were talking at 11 o'clock at night and both of us were tying cicada patterns. So I mean, it's kind of one of those things where there's always something to do, whether it's tying up leaders, whether it's making flies, where getting stuff done on the boat. And so yeah, I mean, but we've definitely had some good people backing us up and helping us along the way, for sure.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And I know it helps too to have four to six people kind of in your umbrella and then people like Patrick Fulcrude, where you can kind of talk about what's going on so you can kind of get things dialed in for your clients a little bit better.

Josh Pfeiffer: Sure, yeah. And we have people that we both fish with back and forth that'll come down here to get something a little different, but they'll go up there because they love the South Holston. And it is, it's nice to have relationships with the guys. I know that there's that. I don't know if it's necessarily like a toxic deal with other guys out west, and not necessarily, but like I've been in a boat on the Snake River. Several years ago, me and my buddy and our guide and another guy got into an altercation.

And so we don't have that around here. It's very laid back, it's calm there. Most of us are all buddies and people fish in between us and so it's a little different around here.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. It's funny, while you were telling that story, it made me think I was fishing down for redfish in Buford. And then we had another God literally blow up in a flat in a boat and push water into us and yell at us and then motor away.

Josh Pfeiffer: Yeah, exactly. I mean, life's too short and you kind of think to yourself, and he thinks we're in the wrong. I don't know. People are driven by different things. Especially now, it seems like with 2020 just kind of being a disaster all around people's tempers are high and anyways it just helps us to learn how to deal with different situations and different people.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And sometimes you just have to stay away from some of those people.

Josh Pfeiffer: Yeah, that's a good point.

Marvin Cash: Well it's interesting. I wanted to talk to you just to kind of let folks know because I know I've been lucky over my fishing career to fish with a lot of different people. To let folks know kind of what a day on the water is like with you or one of your other guides.

Josh Pfeiffer: Sure, yeah. We have a different river system. So a lot of tailwaters in our area are run by TVA. So a lot of the questions that we get are where do we meet and what time? And that question could come up a month in advance. We try to just tell them, around here you have to be flexible. We don't know what TVA is going to run on a particular day they give a projected flow of what they're planning on running. But we get a lot of rain in this area.

So number one, we always just try to tell people be flexible if at all possible. And the good thing is that there's so many rivers around here fish that there's always an option. Two, we try to always be 15 minutes early because if you're not 15 minutes early, you're late. That's what my dad always used to teach me. And so we always are punctual. We have rods rigged, ready to fish, boats clean, cooler, full of drinks.

And the biggest thing is when we or fishing with somebody, especially somebody new, just ask them what they want to get into. What are you looking for? Are you want to chase one trophy? Are you wanting to just catch numbers? Is this something you're going to do one time and just want to have fun. Just try to feel the person out really and kind of get to know them and where they come from a little bit.

But with us, with, we try to just make it as fun as possible. And I know that everybody's like oh, that's what every guy said, But it really is. I mean, in the end, you kind of look back, and though it's awesome to have a picture as a huge fish, or you can go back and go, I literally caught 80 to 100 fish that day. It was unreal. Everybody remembers something weird about that trip.

And so there's always these situations that come up that just like that guide in the temper. Your guide could have yelled back at him. And that's the one thing you remember that trip, how your guides got into it, just like mine. Instead, you've got a positive thing to remember about your trip. So we definitely try to focus on that.

We try to do different things. Again, in our area, there's really nobody else guiding for smallmouth. And so that's a cool thing that we have in our area that people are that they don't really know at first, but then they come here and they're like, wow, Tennessee's got a lot of smallmouth. I said, yeah, and not only do we have a lot of smallmouth, we have very cool and unique conditions for smallmouth.

So when you think of smallmouth, what you think of is kind of dirty rivers of the Midwest with brown water and the flatland and things like that. Well, we are. A lot of things around us are mountains, and we've got some sections that are flat, some rapids. We've got very clear water. And what's cool about our area is where we are in the country. We're so far south that our season starts earlier. So like, right now we're already catching smallmouth.

And though we haven't started catching them on top water, that's probably the biggest thing about smallmouth fishing as well as trout fishing, too. I mean, we've got a lot of bugs hatching right now in the park. The Quill Gordons and the Blue quills are a big attraction this time of year. It's the first bugs that really hatch off in good numbers and get the fish fired up.

And so people are coming out of winter and they're looking for something to do now that the weather's nicer. And here we have opportunities in the south to not only catch trout, but smallmouth get on them a little earlier. But one thing I wanted to touch back on with the Smallmouth is that it's pretty neat that over the years people have said, what's cool about your rivers is they're gin clear. So you get a lot of the strikes and a lot of the top water eats are all visual.

And I know a top water eat, no matter where you're at, is visual. Ours is visual. From 15, 20ft away from the popper, we can actually see the fish coming at it and stare at it and like it. You get to see play by play. And so it's really unique and a lot of people get a kick out of it.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's neat too. Like when you like you pull like a white game changer and it just disappears. Right?

Josh Pfeiffer: It's. Yeah, it's exactly. I mean, white is a huge killer. So anything visual, people actually ask us a lot of times why we fish white, for that reason right there. Because you can see it, fish can see it. And it's fun. A lot of times a fish, a smallmouth especially is going to come up to a streamer and eat it, but not necessarily run away. So if you don't have a consistently tight line to it, which you never do, you always have a pause in between the strips. You might not feel that strike and he's going to toss it.

So I mean a white streamer is even growing up, fishing a white fluke or a white spinner bait, it was always fun. So yeah, that's definitely, especially in clear water where you can see him coming from a ways off. That's definitely a cool thing that our area has to offer.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's neat. I know. Like in the mid Atlantic the. We're kind of starting to get geared up for kind of pre spawn smallmouth. Are your smallies already on the spawn?

Josh Pfeiffer: No, they haven't started spawning yet. And again ours varies because our springs will either be cold, they'll be hot. I mean right now we're getting a lot of rain. So they're typically it's a little bit later in the spring when our spawn but right now, I mean they're right on the tipping point of coming out of wintering holes.

And getting up on the shallows, they're more aggressive. They're not nearly as bunched up. And so it is, it's right there on the verge of it. So some days we'll have really nice sunny days and you can look at the water temperature at. Come up a few degrees and you can notice it in the fish's activity. Other days like today, we get a cold rain and it chills that water off and it puts them right back into a funk.

Not to say that they won't eat, but it's just not as aggressive as maybe two days earlier. But it's coming. The spawn's not too far off. They're definitely healthy. The, We've caught some pretty large fish already this year that were very healthy. Good shape, hard fighters. And so we're seeing a pattern on several different places that we're fishing that when that they're doing the exact same thing.

So it's. I mean, I guess you, making a I'm going the long way around a short answer, but the. Yes, the pre. Spawn is starting. But it, I guess you can say it started a month ago. But we're just now getting into the time when we're getting more reliable flows to actually act on it and go after them. Because we've had flooding nonstop.

One of our big rivers, the French Broad, has been rolling at 18 to 20,000 for a month. Two months. And it's just now showing signs of relief. Some of our freestone streams are now coming down. But as they're coming down here, we're getting a bunch of rain the next couple of days. So, but the good thing is in our area, we don't get flooded for very long. It may take a day or two and we're usually back to hitting the river, running trips. So it's pretty unique.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And so you're starting a little bit earlier than like our friends in the upper Midwest. How late into September and October are you able to consistently fish for smallies?

Josh Pfeiffer: Well, we're actually fishing for them sometimes almost up to Thanksgiving. So our season lasts quite a bit longer than most people's. And the reason is because our rivers stay warmer longer. And so though the food sources might start to dissipate or disappear, we actually will get quite a few bait fish to push in to the river. So it kind of gives them like One good last meal that will last all the way into the fall, late fall.

And that's not, and don't get me wrong, that's not a common occurrence that we're fishing all the way to Thanksgiving. But I mean we fish them all through the winter as well. But like, we pretty well are done taking trips for smallmouth in about early to mid November. And really it's because it starts getting colder, the days are shorter, your window for active fish starts to get less and less.

And so it's not necessarily the fact that we can't catch them, it's just that it's a combination of things where you don't really want to take somebody out on a day when they might only have a good couple of hours.

Marvin Cash: Yep.

Josh Pfeiffer: Unless that person says, I want a good couple of hours and that's it. So, we try to do our best to take care of our folks. And especially when folks have traveled a long ways to come here, we want to do them right, take them out on a fun day and make sure that they get their time worth.

Marvin Cash: So, yeah, absolutely. Makes a lot of sense. And given the fact that you have a longer season, does that translate into your smallmouth being different than the ones in the upper Midwest or what we think of like in Virginia and up in Pennsylvania? Are they bigger or more aggressive or.

Josh Pfeiffer: I would say overall. And I know that I've caught them up north, I've caught them in the Midwest. All great fisheries. And every water has kind of its own specific special thing. I would say though that where we are and where their native range is, us being right at the tail of it is definitely our longer season.

The food sources stay out longer, the fish themselves stay out longer. They get a little bit bigger. There's more bodies of water with them in it, or within the bodies of water. So we've, our growing season on certain rivers is, I mean you could technically say that it's 12 months a year. And as to where a lot of places get so cold, they'll lock up and they'll go into winter mode.

Ours do have that winter mode as well. And they're definitely less aggressive, but I would say that you're probably looking at about a 10 month period season. If you're a hardcore Smallmouth fisherman here, you could do it year round again, but 10 months of probably active smallmouth fishing. So with that being said, the fish just had more time to grow.

They've got, Tennessee has more species of crawdads than any other state in the country. So we have so much food for them and such a longer growing season that that's kind of, it's a 20 inch smallmouth is not necessarily a rare occurrence. It's always a special day when somebody catches a citation. But for somebody to catch a 21 or 22 or 23 inch fish, it's like, yeah, that can happen in Tennessee.

Marvin Cash: Very neat. Do you have a favorite way you like to fish for them?

Josh Pfeiffer: I mean, I think, I don't think I'm any different than anybody else, top water. Who doesn't love a big dark smallmouth coming up and sipping a top water? So, especially this year, they're predicting our area to get a periodical cicada hatch. So I mean being a topwater lover, this is like a dream coming true. Now. It's a 17 year, so I remember the 13 year how crazy things got then. So I'm really hoping that we get it.

I think that the folks fishing with us are going to have an absolute ball if that happens. I think it's going to make the rivers a little crazier this year, but, yeah, definitely top water. I'm a popper guy. I love time poppers. I love time poppers out of several different materials from deer hair to balsa wood. And the ladies at the Sally Hansen shop know me pretty well because I've got a pretty big selection of nail polish that I paint my poppers with.

Marvin Cash: There you go. So do you have a favorite style? Do you like sliders or chuggers? What's your favorite style of popper?

Josh Pfeiffer: Man, I'm a chugger. I like a good top water though. I wouldn't say that we necessarily are chugging them. Again, because our waters being shallow and clear, sometimes that can actually spook them. But I do like that style. I like to be able to make noise if I want to. If I've got one off in the distance, you can pop it and bring them to it.

I like one that has a little bit of weight to it sometimes, just the sound of it hitting can get them to come up. So something like a boogel bug. It's a gray popper. It makes a good sound, it's got a good look to it, time in a bunch of different colors. So that's all. That's kind of my favorite style. Just like a lot, I'm sure.

And then if I had to pick another, I love tying with foam, so I love tying terrestrial patterns and I've got a few that we tie for smallmouth that those days when they kind of look at a popper for the hundredth day in a row and they're just kind of like, oh gosh, I'm over. I like to be able to throw them something a little different that look on your desk and you've got some foam and rubber legs and some stuff to make a wing pattern with. It's kind of cool that you can play around with stuff like that and still attract one to it.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, absolutely. And before we talk a little bit about fishing in the park, I did want to talk to you about being selected as the Orvis Freshwater Guide of the Year last year. And that's a big deal. And I was wondering if you could share with our listeners kind of the selection process and what the award means to you.

Josh Pfeiffer: Oh, man. It's kind of funny. We've been with Orvis for I think like three. This is maybe our fourth season with Orvis. And for years I had a buddy who was an Orvis guide. And he said, you should really get involved with Orvis. It's a great company. And it really didn't seem like something I wanted to get involved in. I like, I want to be in more of the small town guide community, not necessarily the corporate guide community.

The more I looked into wasn't the corporate world at all. And my buddy said, listen, try it out. If you don't like it, drop it. But try it out. And it's such a good company to work with. We have a local store here in Sevierville. All the guys that are there, Jake, Vic, Jeremy, all of them are great guys. They always help us out with stuff. If I need something like, hey, we broke a Rod, they've always told me, come get one, man. Whatever you need for your trip, come get it.

So it's been an awesome company to work with. And when they told us, hey, you got nominated for the guy of the year, I honestly thought it was a joke. I thought my buddy was messing with me. And then I got a call and they were like, hey man, congratulations. And I thought, well, that's really cool. Like, I was kind of in shock a little bit.

I don't know the selection process. After we won it, I kind of tried to go back and think there's got to be some kind of algorithm for this that they choose or whatever. And as far as I can tell, I'm still at a loss. I have no idea how they choose you. But we were very honored to get it and to actually even be in the same realm of some really awesome guys that I followed over the years was kind of like, I don't know, his. It was kind of a weird moment to get up there and be like, oh, yeah, I'm with you guys. Okay, I didn't feel like that.

But we're again, it's just little old Maryville, Tennessee, around some of these other big name areas that are so well known for fishing. So, yeah, we're pretty excited about it. And I just couldn't be more thankful for them choosing us. So.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's super cool. Particularly, I mean, you're a pretty young guy and your guide companies, barely more than 10 years old, right?

Josh Pfeiffer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a. It. I mean, it's, it was for sure. Especially just because I've known other guys that have been with Orvis for a while and just even get nominated is a big deal. So it was, and it was kind of funny that the day that we found out about it, my, we were smallmouth fishing on a river. And I never had my phone on me. I just, I don't want my phone on. I don't want interruptions. I don't want them to think that my time and me talking to people on the phone is more valuable than their time.

So I always try to put it away, but it must have leaned down, up against my rowers box. And it was on Vibrate and I could just hear it vibrating non stop. And so when I picked it up, there were, there was text message, saw my buddies like, hey man, congratulations, yada, yada, yada. And I was like, heck are they talking about? And I don't want to be on my phone. So I put it back in my box and it just keeps on going. And so I just kind of picked it up and looked at it and put it back down and I was like, no way. Huh, huh. Okay.

And so I just kind of ignored that and went on with the rest of the trip. And then when I got home, we kind of celebrated. I mean it was pretty big moment for us. So we it was pretty cool. And we're definitely glad that we got on with the Orvis group because again, I mean even some of the guys up north that work at the headquarters, we've got some close relationships with them and so just kind of knowing what's coming out or maybe what some ideas are for new products that they're looking at.

Going to the ogr, the Orvis Guide Rendezvous, you get to meet a lot of people, connect with other guides from all over the country. Heck, I mean there were even guys from Belize down there or over there in Montana last year. So some of which we actually fished with the same people. So it's kind of cool we got to talk about stories of certain guys or women that we fished with over the years to one another and to know that they never change between fishing guys is kind of cool.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, that's super neat. And so shifting gears because we have to talk about trout, right, because you're in such a great trout spot. And so this is an incredibly over broad question, but for people that don't know, can you kind of give them a 30,000 foot view of what fishing opportunities there are in the park? Because I think most people know about the brook trout game. But I mean there are thousands of miles of wild trout water, right?

Josh Pfeiffer: So everywhere you see there's going to, you'll see the number 800, 800 miles of trout water. Fishable trout water. And yes, I mean there's probably some of those probably aren't what you would, most would consider trout water. They do have some in it. The brook trout is definitely a big draw to the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, especially because it's a southern Appalachian brook trout. So it's a very special strain of that trout.

And you can ask anybody in this area. Of course we're going to be a little biased towards it, but it's definitely a special fish because it's so beautiful. There's tons of color on it and where they live, what they. What they have been through from logging and kind of destroying the park, yet they've still survived. So it's a cool thing that's special to this area.

And like you said, there's definitely more opportunities to fish in the park. And the best part about it is it's all public. So you find a body of water, you pull over and fish it. It's what it's there for. And most people that come here are, they're not even looking at, I want a big number day. I want a huge fish. I think if you're looking for a huge fish, the Great Smoky Mountains is not your place to fish.

Though it can happen. And it does happen occasionally, you never come here looking for it. So I think that's definitely a big thing that we appreciate is the fact that we have so much water. It's all fair game. A lot of it has trout in it. And the bug life. We have very unique hatches. Like right now we're experiencing the quill Gordon hatch and the blue quail hatch. We have a few caddis popping off and stone flies. But the main attraction is the quill Gordon. It's a big mayfly number 12.

And so you've got big, bushy, dry flies that eager trout that have been sitting in wintering holes that haven't seen much food are now coming up and crashing on the surface. Mix that with not that many people in the park right now because it's still kind of cold, and you've got a really fun day on the water.

There's definitely several places that we like to go that we can specifically target browns. And from what I understand, talking to some of the old timers and some of the park biologists and whatnot. The Tennessee side of the smokies has never been stopped officially by the park with brown trout. It was more the North Carolina side. And as they call them, bucket biologists brought the browns over to The Tennessee side.

So I've heard that from several guys that work for the National Park Service. Whether or not it's true, I don't know. But we do have browns, we've got rainbows, we've got brook trout and there's me and a guy actually had a conversation one time that every now and then you catch a rainbow and he's got what looks like a little cutthroat heel flash on him. And we don't have cutthroat here. They don't live here. They've never been stopped. Right.

But he said he was at, I believe it was the fly fishing museum. And he found this little note on the wall that actually said how there were a few cutthroat that were put in over the years. And again, I've not seen that note. I can't confirm that. I'm just saying what I've heard from the others. But I do know that it's something that I've done since I was a little kid with my dad. And I was just in the park this week with a couple of guys and it's just as fun now as it was back then.

In fact, one of the trips I've taken out recently was with an 11 year old boy and him and his mom and dad. And to see that kid light up when he caught one, it's just as fun for me. I'm 35, so it's a lot of camping around. You can do backcountry trips. And that's a lot of times that's where you're going to find your brook trout. But not just brook trout. Rainbows and browns too.

But it's just one of those things that I think people, it's definitely a trout destination. It's a wild trout fishery on the east coast. And so especially growing up here, we always took it for granted that we've got such a cool resource in our backyard now. I know that. But when I was a kid I used to always want to travel and go different places and even live other places because I thought there might be more out there. But as you go out there, you realize you kind of lived in paradise, so there's really nowhere that you need to go.

But it's a special place. And one of the best hatches is yet to come, which is the yellow Sally. So everybody likes to dress the part, right? Everybody likes to look like a fly fisherman and wear the waders and wear the vest and all that stuff. But one of the cool things about the Smokies is in the summertime, take the waders off, take the vest off. Just take one small box of yellow stoneflies, put on your wading boots or your Chaco and take one small rod and hit the trail.

It's a lot of fun in the summertime. It's a good way to stay cool. And it's one of those hatches that when it comes off, they're. It's fast. If you're as fishing, it's a small, brightly colored bug. So I mean they've got to eat quite a few of them. And as a Great Smoky Mountains relic up here, as Walter Babb says, I don't think a trout in the Smokies can get full. So it's a pretty cool place. And there's lots and lots of places to go and venture and see.

Every stream seems like it's a little bit different. One of my favorite streams is Abrams Creek. Abrams creek fishes to me completely differently than any of the branches of the Little River or the west prong of the little Pigeon river that are above Gallenburg. So the Oconaluske in North Carolina, it fishes to me different than the Little River. So it's kind of neat how you can go from one watershed to another and see differences.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, absolutely. And also for folks that aren't in our part of the world and haven't been to the park before. It's not just the fishing that makes that part of the world special. You want to talk a little bit about what makes that western North Carolina, eastern Tennessee place such a neat place, not just for fishing, but for so many other things.

Josh Pfeiffer: Sure, yeah. I mean one big attraction and probably the. One of the most visited places in the national park is Cades Cove. And Cades cove is an 11 mile loop that you can drive, you can walk around, you can ride a bike, and it's a place to view wildlife. So on any given day again, back when I was a kid, my Parents and I would go up there, and we would just drive around the loop and see how many deer we could count.

This time of year, you're going to see turkey out. You're going to see a big tom strutting in front of his hen. And it's really cool. And again, it's something free to do that. You can go in there. Western North Carolina has quite a few elk that are really neat to go out and see. And we don't have them on our side, so it's kind of neat for even for us to travel over the mountain and go see those elk, especially in the fall. And here in Bugling, there's tons of wildflowers, and people come from all over to see the wildflowers, the rhododendrons blooming, which kind of just happens to be along the rivers a lot of the time.

So as you're fishing, you're fishing around what essentially is the undergrowth of when they log the park. And it's a beautiful flower, it's a big bloom, and it's very colorful, and it's neat to see all the hiking opportunities that we have. We have a little over a thousand miles hiking trails. And so I've known several people that have are in a club where they've hiked every trail in the Smokies. Some have hiking twice.

And of course, the backpacking like I mentioned before, there's just so much to do in the Smokies. And one thing that's always been popular, and it's now almost. I mean, even for us locals here, it's hard for us to get into it. But we have the synchronous firefly. So the fireflies, when they're mating, they kind of do this thing where they all will kind of flash together at one time, just loads of them. And you can go up into the Elmont campground and see fireflies all light up at one time. And there's only a few places in the whole world that happens and in that volume. And one of them is here in the Smokies.

So it's. I could go on and on about things to do here and places to stay. Just think we ought to. We ought to let people come over here and experience it themselves.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's a neat place. Like I told you before we started recording, I always try to come in the fall and try to fish every year. And yeah, it's neat. The fireflies are super neat. It's just a really special part of the world.

Josh Pfeiffer: Yeah. And it's actually, again, going back to the fishing side of it. Not just the fish themselves, but it's a cool way to see the park, outside of how other people see it. So a lot of people will drive right through the park, going from Gatlinburg to North Carolina, and that was there, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's their experience of the smokey getting in the stream, though.

And I can't believe I didn't mention it, but the black bears, you can see black bears in Cades Cove almost every day during the spring and summer. And so, funny enough, and this sounds crazy, but as many times I've been up to Abrams Creek in Cades Cove, I have never seen a black bear in Cades Cove. And people tell me all the time, they're like, oh, wow, we saw four today. People that don't know the area.

But it just seems like every time I see something cool in the Smokies, it's while I'm fishing. I've stumbled upon bears while I'm fishing. I've had bobcats walk up on me. The river otters. River otters are not scared of you, and they'll come right through your run while you're fishing. It's really cool. And a lot of people that don't get out of the car will never experience that. So when you're kind of in that environment with them, not just seeing it from the road, it kind of puts into a different perspective.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's interesting too when you get off the beaten path like that, because sometimes you can you feel like something's watching you, and that's when you see the wildlife. Or I've certainly had the experience where like, you can smell the deer, but you can't see them.

Josh Pfeiffer: Yeah, yeah.

Marvin Cash: It's a super neat experience. But you don't just guide in the park. You also float for trout outside the park. What's that experience like?

Josh Pfeiffer: Yeah, we have in the Knoxville area, we have two great rivers. One's the Clinch River, which I talked about earlier, which has the state record brown trout. We also have the Holston River and the Holston river, though the access is fairly limited. It is a great trout river. The upper 18 miles of it and 20 miles if you want to stretch it out, is trout and the lower 30 are smallmouth, but the trout waters themselves. We have a great caddis hatch on it. We do get sulfurs and I'd say that the year round fishery though is the Clinch River.

And what's cool about the Clinch is it fishes well on low water, it fishes well on high water and everything in between. It's got browns, it's got rainbows. And so what a lot of people do, what we did today, we were on the Clinch River and we nymph fished for the majority of the time, but we actually ended up getting a few on streamers. So we have so many different options.

And one of those like we said earlier too, about our area getting a lot of rain, is if our rivers in this area get blown out, I can call one of my buddies and say, hey, how's the river up in your area? We could travel two hours and hit a different river. So within the Knoxville area, we have seven rivers that we float for trout and smallmouth, but two particular for trout that grow trophy trout and good numbers of trout.

We have hatches that we can target fish on dries, which is a special thing. If you've ever been on a big river and you see pods of fish rising or you just say single fish rising, which is totally different from the Smokies, where you're making very short casts and you can't see the fish until it comes up. On these big rivers, you're making long casts. You're actually getting to drift a fly into the fish and watch him come up and slowly eat it. I mean, it's pretty special.

But most of our fishing is nymph fishing just because an inexperienced angler is probably not going to be able to deliver a fly accurately at first without some sort of guidance with that. So we do teach people how to do that. We work on skills while we're out there, but most of it is nymph and streamer fishing.

And so again, I mean, one of those things that I have, I've been able, fortunately, to fish other rivers. And if I had one trout river to fish on, if I had one more day to live and one to fish, it would probably be the Clinch River just because it's our home river. I know it well. It's beautiful. It's a lot of farmland. There's no development on it except for some homes that you see here and there.

And if there was one other river that I could fish, it would be the Snake, the south fork of the Snake River in Idaho. And so going to all these places and then coming back home, it is. And everybody's going to be biased towards their water. It's what you grew up on. It's what you're comfortable with it. But it's to see beginners have great days on the water that can show you how good your water is. As to where an experienced angler on a western river that gets humbled, which can happen to anybody any day.

But it seems like on the western rivers there's more days that I've been on it where you're humbled due to cold snaps and wind and the flows are off. It got flooded or too low or whatever. Just seems like our rivers aren't as fickle as those at times. And don't get me wrong, I love going out west. I'm not knocking western rivers at all because if there's one state that I would live in other than Tennessee, it would be Idaho.

But yes, it's. We have some great spots that we can take people on the. And one good thing about our area as well, being tailwaters, is that they're fishable year round. So our water temperatures vary from spring to fall but generally stay around the 50 to 55 degree range and keep trout year round and keep them healthy. So it's kind of nice to have that in your backyard.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, absolutely. It's funny when you were saying that, it makes me think about when I fish the South Holston and you can feel the cold air with the water coming downstream when they've done a release and you're waiting for the water to get to you.

Josh Pfeiffer: Oh, yeah, and the fog starts rolling in and It's a weird. If you've never seen that or experienced that, it is an odd feeling to just get a gust of wind coming. And for somebody who's never fished a tailwater, one of my favorite things is when you're anchored up and you've been fishing low water all day, and I know that the water is coming up. They don't necessarily know that, it's to see somebody's first reaction when they go, hey, Josh, I think this water's coming up. And that. That provides me with an opportunity to mess with them. And so which is perks of the job sometimes. But though most people are good sports about that.

And I will say that we actually don't do wade trips on the tailwaters. And one reason for that is just the fact that TVA will put up a disclaimer saying that if the water needs to be released due to them needing extra power or needing to get rid of water or whatever, they can do so without letting you know, so for that reason, we've just made a decision that we don't do anything but float trip on our tailwaters. Because that way, if the water does come up, we're not in jeopardy. We're in a boat. We can rise with the water, we can fall with it, we can control. We can get to the bank quicker. So that is definitely one thing that we don't do is wade fish the tailwaters.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. It's funny you say that, because when I would take people that had never fished the South Holston before, I was like, when you feel that cold air and see the fog, you need to make sure you're on the side of the river you want to be on.

Josh Pfeiffer: Yeah, that's right. That's a great point. Yeah. And keep an eye on something, make sure that you've got set something on a rock upstream from you, like a bottle or something in your pack. That way, when the water rises, it'll come floating by you, you'll know it. Keep your eye on something. It's very important because those tailwaters, they can be dangerous if you're not careful.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, there you go. And Josh, before I let you get on with your evening tonight, I really appreciate you taking the time. But why don't you let folks know the best way to follow your fishing adventures online and also how to book you or one of your guides?

Josh Pfeiffer: Sure, yeah. So you can visit our website at frontieranglers-tn.com so it's. You can go on there. You can. Actually, a lot of the way we book trips is through our website. We have an easy system to set it up and whatnot. We're kind of old school. We a lot of us still like to just talk with people one on one before the trip.

I have several people that call and say, hey, I went on there and wanted to book a trip, but we never found a calendar. And the reason for that is I want to make sure that I get the trip lined up for you, or one of my guides gets the trip lined up for you that you're looking for. We've had people in the past say, hey, I want to go trout fishing on the tailwaters, or I just want to go catch trout. And they would have booked a trout trip for the Smokies, but maybe they didn't want to go wade fishing. Maybe they wanted to go floating. And they didn't know that.

Even though we've got it listed. You can pick your trip that you want, but I just like to get people's idea. Again, that's how when we first started, a lot of people didn't know we did smallmouth. And so it's something that we just have always done. We like to be personable. I'm a talker. So I mean, as you can tell, I love talking with people and meeting people. And so that's one way for sure is our contact info is on there, phone numbers, emails, all that. You can see pictures of us on there as well.

And we're on Facebook, we're on Instagram. And so we stay pretty regular on our stuff too. So you can see fish reports, what's going on. We try to be as current as possible. And we just have. We have a lot of folks and we know things are busy this time of year for people, or they're just planning trips and doing whatever. So we try to throw that information out there. In case they just want to see something real quick to kind of get an idea of what's going on. So but I really appreciate you bringing me on and talking with me and letting me kind of share a little bit about our area and our guide service and whatnot. So again, just thank you.

Marvin Cash: Oh, gosh, it's been my pleasure. And I'm going to drop all that good information in the show notes, so it'll make life easy for everybody. They'll be able to just click on a link and follow you on Instagram or Facebook or head right over to your website and book you or one of your guys. And Josh, I really appreciate you making the time this evening.

Josh Pfeiffer: Awesome. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it.

Marvin Cash: Absolutely. Take care.

Josh Pfeiffer: All right. You too, buddy.

Marvin Cash: Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Get out there and catch a few tight lines, everybody.