S4, Ep 132: STEELHEAD REDUX: Patrick Robinson of Steelhead Alley Outfitters

Marvin Cash (00:04-01:00): Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. On this episode, I'm joined by Patrick Robinson, Director of Operations for Steelhead Alley Outfitters. We're on the edge of fall steelhead season, and Patrick and I take a deep dive into all things steelhead and Steelhead Alley. I think you're really going to like this interview.

But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a review on the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out.

And a shout out to this episode's sponsor. This episode is sponsored by our friends at Nor-vise. Their motto is, tie better flies faster. And they produce the only vise that truly spins. To see for yourself, visit www.nor-vise.com. Even better, reach out to the folks at Nor-vise for a virtual demo. Contact details are in the show notes. Now, on to the interview.

Well, Patrick, welcome to

Patrick Robinson (01:01-01:06): The Articulate Fly. Thanks, Marvin. Good to be here. Yeah, I'm looking forward to our chat this evening.

Marvin Cash (01:06-01:10): And we have a tradition on The Articulate Fly. We always ask all of our folks to share their

Patrick Robinson (01:11-02:26): earliest fishing memory. Earliest fishing memory. Well, I guess the earliest fishing memory I would have without defaulting back to photographs that I've seen from my parents over the years. I would say probably the earliest memory that I can recall myself would be when I was probably in kindergarten or first grade.

We had made a move over to Illinois for just a couple of short years with my dad's job transfer. And we were and are to this day, big waterfowlers until we were on the Mississippi River. And while my dad and a couple of his buddies were building duck blinds, I was sitting in the old aluminum john boat catching anything that would tug on a nightcrawler.

And I can remember catching different species of gar and channel cats and flathead catfish, you name it, even some freshwater eels and that kind of thing. That's probably my earliest fishing memory that I can recall personally if I didn't look at photographs from earlier in that time period with my dad and that kind of thing.

Marvin Cash (02:26-02:30): Absolutely. And so when did you move to the dark side of fly fishing?

Patrick Robinson (02:32-06:05): Well, I guess there's an unofficial answer to that question and an official. It was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of, I'm going to say, eight to ten years of age maybe. That's my best guess. I can remember traveling around with my mother who was kind of a craft artisan of sorts and my grandfather who was a master waterfowl carver.

We would go to all kinds of different craft shows or waterfowl carving shows and that kind of thing and I was at a place called Connor Prairie just I believe memory serves to the east of Indianapolis. I hail from southern Indiana and at that show that we were at there was somebody there. I'm assuming at this stage in life that it was probably a local fly fishing outfitter or fly shop or something like that they were set up there and they were doing casting demonstrations and all kinds of different things and I was totally enamored by that point in my life man.

I was every time I can grab a fishing pole and hit a water hole, I was there. And so when I saw the fly fishing, man, it just like stole my imagination. And so at that point, I kind of started doing the best I could to look into it. But I'm 45. So I come from that generation that precedes the internet. So back then we had to read stuff, we couldn't go to the internet. You had to go to the library or know somebody or whatnot.

And to be honest with you, Southern Indiana at that time, and probably still to this day wasn't a hotbed for fly fishermen so I resorted to going to K-mart back when there were K-marts around much like Walmart's and I picked up a cheap old fly rod from K-mart and started fishing for literally anything that I could get to come up to the surface and grab a fly.

Now mind you I had no clue what I was doing. I didn't know the difference between a flyline and a leader and the frustration mounted like why can't I catch fish on this fly rod. And so it was very much something that I just kind of dabbled with. I can remember going to one of my favorite smallmouth streams or bass streams because I used to catch a lot of spotted bass along with smallmouth and some of those local streams and I thought I'm gonna go down there I'm gonna catch bass on this fly rod and that just did not happen.

I remember saying to myself on that stream one day, I'm like, I'm done with this fly fishing thing. I'm never doing it again, but I just kept coming back to the challenge of it all. And so I continued to mess with it throughout my childhood. So that's the unofficial answer.

The official side really happened about 1997. In 1997, I had just been married and ended up out in Southwest Missouri. And Southwest Missouri has a fair amount of fly fishing waters out there. And I went to the Bass Pro headquarters store while I was out there. And I'm like, listen, I'm going to be close to this stream. I want to catch a trout on a fly rod. I know nothing. Talk to me like I'm stupid.

They did. They got me set up. And that day I went out and caught my first trout on a fly rod. And that was all she wrote. I had enough information to understand everything that I'd done wrong as a kid. And from that point on, if you want to call it a sickness, that's what it developed into.

Marvin Cash (06:06-06:15): Absolutely. And so you kind of got this set up a little bit later in life when you weren't a kid anymore. Who are some of the folks that have mentored you to where you are today?

Patrick Robinson (06:17-08:55): Wow. I probably don't have any kind of a maybe a stereotypical answer that a lot of other guys are going to have. Again, when I got into it in 1997, the internet was still fairly new. There wasn't, I mean, stuff like we're doing right now, this stuff just didn't exist. You didn't get to talk to guides. You didn't get to talk to fly shops, especially in an area where there were none. The closest fly shop to me was an hour to two hours away. And I did not get to just walk into a fly shop and ask all kinds of questions.

So basically, the long and short of it is, is I learned most of what I learned through the school of hard knocks. I can remember, if you were going to say that I learned from somebody or was inspired by anybody, it probably came not long after I started into fly fishing, when I started dabbling in fly tying.

And some of the old timers that have now passed away and passed the torch to the next generation like Lefty Kreh. I remember getting a cheap, pretty much a junk fly tying vise and a kit from Bass Pro. And there was a video with Lefty in there teaching you how to tie a Lefty's Deceiver or Lefty's version of a Woolly Bugger. And so I drew a lot of inspiration from a couple of the old timers like that.

But I really didn't know anybody. I didn't have any friends, really, that even fly fished. If I did have, it was because I introduced them to it. So they were actually behind me in the learning curve. So I made a lot of mistakes. That's why when people come and fish with me, I'm like, I know the value of a guide because I never had one.

And when I did finally hire a guide, and the first guide I hired was actually a guide out on the White River in northern Arkansas, short little Welshman by the name of Davey Watton. That was the first time I'd ever fished with a guide. And in one day, he gave me more to chew on, and I learned more in that one day than I had in all the previous years I'd ever been fly fishing.

So I really didn't have anybody that was around to even inspire me, other than a couple of recordings. It was, I guess, fortunate, unfortunate. I mean, when you learn through the School of Hard Knocks, you learn the hard way, but you learn well.

Marvin Cash (08:56-09:01): Yeah, it's definitely durable. So, Patrick, when did you get the steelhead bug?

Patrick Robinson (09:02-12:00): Well, when I was in Northwest Ohio when I first, if you want to say officially started going after fish on the fly. And so at that point, I had kind of made that same presumption that a lot of people do about fly fishing, that it's all about trout. I grew up bass fishing, got out of high school, fished bass tournaments.

All of my closest friends, they graduated high school, got factory jobs, bought nice trucks and matching bass boats. I had guys around me all the time if I wanted to go bass fishing and fish tournaments and all that kind of thing. I was all about the warm water. Back then, we didn't even use terms like warm water and cold water. We didn't have trout where I was at. As far as I was concerned, if you weren't fishing a bass, you weren't fishing.

When I got to Northwest Ohio, I started fly fishing. I kind of lost sight of that first love of warm water species and the different bass that I used to chase. And it was all about the trout. So I'd venture to the South. And that's what I did mostly, was venture to the South to the Mad River, which is one of the stock streams. It was stocked more in the past than they're stocking now, but that was the only trout fishery within striking distance of me.

And so I would say it was probably a couple of years into it, maybe, that I started catching wind. I think back in that day, there was a, in the early infancy days of the internet, there was a site that came up called, I think it was called the Steelheader site. And I started discovering that there were steelhead just about as close to me as there were the trout to the south of me.

And so I started traveling to the nearest steelhead stream to me at the time, which was the Vermilion, still holds a very special place in my heart. But again, I was as green as the day is long. I had no concept or clue about different leaders and tippet types and sizes and what's appropriate for what species and whatnot.

So it was a couple of years into it that I discovered steelhead, and it became the newest passion. I mean, everybody who fishes for smaller trout, when they discover that they can catch a steelhead that's going to double the size or triple the size of what they're used to catching, it's a pretty exciting thing to go after. But it took me two years before I finally bagged one just because of my inexperience and my sheer ignorance of how to rig properly and that kind of thing. So probably just shy of 2000 when I really started pursuing them the first time.

Marvin Cash (12:01-12:14): Yeah, absolutely. And steelheaders are a really different breed. Even guys that have it figured out, sometimes the fish just don't cooperate. What do you think it takes Patrick to be a successful steelhead angler?

Patrick Robinson (12:16-14:24): Oh boy that's a good question. To be a successful steelhead angler I would just say stick with it. I guess that could be answered differently for different areas but for us specifically up here on the region known as Steelhead Alley, our streams are designated spate streams, which means they're dependent upon rainfall to maintain levels.

And so the term that you'll often hear used to describe our streams is that they're flashy, meaning that they're fast to rise and they're fast to drop. And so everybody at some point in time or another that is an outdoorsman, they'll hear the phrase, you should have been here yesterday. And I'll tell you, there is nothing that could be further or there's nothing that could be any truer about the sport of steelheading than you should have been here yesterday.

Because there are certain water colors and temperatures that the steelhead are just more agreeable in. And so sticking with it, most of the guys that don't have day in and day out availability to hit the water or they don't live streamside to hit it at a moment's notice. They're relegated to the weekends they're relegated to hit what they hit the water when they can not when they want.

And so I would say just to be successful stick with it because eventually you're going to hit it right eventually it's going to make sense and if you're not a guy that can spend a lot of time on the stream one of the greatest things and this may sound really self-serving but one of the greatest things you can do to be a successful steelhead angler is hire a guide and I say that having walked the toughest road of fly fishing you could possibly have walked. Had I hired a guide man I would have been dialed in on the sport so much earlier and had fish to hand a lot earlier and so just stick with it man if you got the resources hire a guide it takes years off your learning curve.

Marvin Cash (14:24-15:04): Yeah I really endorse that advice. I don't think I've ever met anyone that fishes that says they get to fish as much as they want to right and so for those of us who don't get to fish as much as we want to, to me the biggest thing you can do if you can swing it is to book a guide. Even if they aren't, I call some guides are teaching guides some guides don't like doing that, but most do, but then just to have someone who's intimately familiar with what's going on, where you're going to be fishing.

Yeah. So, so Patrick, you're originally a Hoosier.

Patrick Robinson (15:05-15:37): How did you find your way to Steelhead Alley? The long and short of it is, basically, what got me to Ohio, was my wife and employment. And so. So that's how I ended up in Northwest Ohio. And again, due to other employment, I ended up moving over actually down to Columbus and then up to Northeast Ohio. So that's kind of how I got into the heart of Steelhead Country.

Marvin Cash (15:38-15:42): Got it. And for our listeners who don't know, where is Steelhead Alley?

Patrick Robinson (15:43-17:02): Yeah, so Steelhead Alley is a geographical location. Easiest way to define it is it's the southern shore of Lake Erie, basically from about the middle of Ohio eastward clear to Buffalo. And actually, when I built a website for our company, put a map together of Steelhead Alley that I've now seen replicated all over the place. It's amazing what Google does with your photos. And I've seen that photo probably in more locations than any other photo that I've ever edited.

But it lifts all of the different streams that flow into Lake Erie out of the states of Ohio, Pennsylvania, and New York. And so just about every trickle that comes off the southern shore into Lake Erie will get Steelhead in it. And so that's where the term Steelhead Alley comes from because the I-90 corridor, Interstate 90, basically parallels the lake shore. And so between I-90 and the Lake Erie shoreline, it just kind of got the nickname over the years of Steelhead Alley.

Marvin Cash (17:03-17:18): Yeah, very cool. And I know that you were with Steelhead Alley Outfitters when Greg Senyo owned the operation and control has changed hands, but you've been there a while. Give us a little bit of the history of Steelhead Alley Outfitters.

Patrick Robinson (17:19-19:49): Yeah, so actually the name Steelhead Alley Outfitters started out with Greg Senyo back when he was just a kid. One man, one man operation kind of, he grew up right on the banks there of Elk Creek in Pennsylvania and started doing some steelhead guiding even when he was in high school.

Greg and I didn't meet until 2007. And there was actually, blogging was really just becoming a big thing during that time. And there was actually a blogging site that had just come out called Fly Fish Blogger. It's not in, it's not even in existence anymore. But what they did is they encouraged fly fishermen to come in and set up their own blog accounts. And they had incentives for blogging your fly fishing excursions.

And I was the top blogger on that site. And Greg just happened to be an editor, a field editor for a newsprint, a regional newsprint publication at the time. And they were looking for some other people to write. He happened to stumble onto my blog, and he read every entry that I had ever written in one day. And he managed to track me down through technology. And next thing you know, we were talking.

The long and short of it is he asked me to be a writer for this publication, and I started writing my own column for that publication. And then shortly thereafter, he approached me with the idea. He said he had always wanted to start a fly fishing guide service, but he didn't want to do it alone. And so we decided to get the other and go do some fly fishing.

It was early that year in March, I remember, because the Grand River was blown out. And it was just chocolate milk. So we hit one of the smaller feeder streams and it was blowing, blowing ice out and everything else. And we caught a few steelhead that day together. And it was that day that we decided we were going to put Steelhead Alley Outfitters on the map.

And so I guess as a company, Greg and I started together back in 2007. So I've literally been with Steelhead Alley Outfitters as an outfitter, if you will, since its inception.

Marvin Cash (19:50-20:05): Yeah, very cool. And I mean, I know that in addition to Steelhead Alley Outfitters, that you guys have kind of partnership relationships with some of the best shops and outfitters in the upper Midwest. Why don't you tell us a little bit about those guys?

Patrick Robinson (20:06-23:12): Yeah, so, I'll never forget when I got, when I kind of came into the industry. There was a guy who had been in the industry for quite a while. He says, there's one thing you got to understand, Patrick, about the fly fishing industry. He says it's like a bunch of old biddies sitting around a campfire, a bunch of hens in the hen house, constantly cackling, right? He says this industry is far smaller than you would ever imagine it is. And I'll tell you what, there is nothing that has turned out to be more true about the fly fishing industry than that. It is far smaller than what most people realize. And it's not hard to come to know people coast to coast, honestly.

Mind you, it was very easy for us to get to know some of the guys who are right here in the immediate Midwest, whether that was Mad River Outfitters or our partner shop right now, Schultz Outfitters. Mike Schultz was running hosted trips down here pretty early on with us. And obviously, because of our relationship, both with them and other companies in the industry like Orvis and that kind of thing, we got to be pretty good friends pretty quick.

Early on, when we first started this, Schultz Outfitters didn't even exist. They've only been in existence. I think they're, if I'm not mistaken, they're coming up on year seven or year eight. And Steelhead Alley Outfitters, like I said, we started it in 2007. So we've been in existence about twice as long. So from basically day one, we had a great relationship with Schultz because he's been in the business as a guide for a lot more years than that, but finally decided to open up a shop and quickly took the Midwest by storm, as you may know.

And so it was just, it was easy for us to become fast friends and make them our home shop. Steelhead Alley Outfitters, we get the question all the time, like, where's your shop located? And we don't have a shop, right? We're not a brick and mortar location. We are a guide service that operates within a geographical area of Steelhead Alley.

So yeah, Schultz Outfitters, we've been partnering with them since day one. And they've always been a great support of us. We've tried to do the very best we can to be a support of them. I do all of the hosted destinations for Steelhead Alley Outfitters and we offer those to the Schultz Outfitters clientele as well and so we do get a lot of cross-pollinization between the two entities that way and so it's just been a great fit.

They're constantly knocking it out of the park and they're just they do everything they do with excellence and that definitely lines up with my philosophy personally and I just like to surround myself with people of like mind. Keep your head down and plow ground. Yeah, absolutely. And so

Marvin Cash (23:12-23:19): you're the director of operations. What does a normal day look like for you? Oh, man. I don't

Patrick Robinson (23:20-24:04): know if there is a normal day. Every day is different. I don't sit at the desk answering phones all day long, but it can be some days the phone rings off the hook and I don't get anything else done other days I'm working on trying to update websites or putting together e-blasts or calling clients calling other outfitters and in destination hot spots to try and figure out where our next hosted trip may or may not be.

Other times I'm just interfacing with other guides locally or abroad just learning what I can and some days I break free from everything and I go fish.

Marvin Cash (24:06-24:10): Yeah, no, it's amazing. It's kind of like if you don't want to fish anymore, own a fly shop, right?

Patrick Robinson (24:11-24:12): Yeah, you got that right, buddy.

Marvin Cash (24:13-24:21): For sure. Yeah, so, and in addition to guiding for steelhead, I mean, you guys guide for smallmouth too. How was your smallie season this year?

Patrick Robinson (24:22-27:46): Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because one of the things that, if you want to say there's any kind of a weakness about our company, it would be the fact that we named it Steelhead Alley Outfitters, right? People can't seem at times to get past the name Steelhead Alley, right? We are definitely more than just a steelhead guide service. There's a lot of fish, a lot of different species in our area, whether that's cold water or warm water.

And so most of the people who fish for steelhead here on the alley know that there's also a pretty ridiculous smallmouth spawn in the spring of the year. And we get the big lake run smallmouth. We're not talking smaller resident fish. We're talking about if you hit it right you could crack a six pound hen in the early season in those lower river runs that are coming into spawn and so we have done that for years and years and years but it's always been a challenge just because and I think it kind of I think to be honest with you I think the steelhead often overshadow the awesomeness of some of the warm water species that we have here, including the smallmouth.

Because we guide for smallmouth and have for years. And just the last couple of years, we've really started diving into fishing for pike. And these are things that people just typically haven't done a whole lot of. I mean, you'll get some guys that really appreciate the smallmouth game, but I just think that the steelhead really have cast a shadow on the game. And so we're really doing a lot of promoting that and getting out and enjoying it.

And I'm going to be completely honest. After guiding Steelhead for 12 years, I've really returned to my first love. I told you about how as a kid I used to run around and hit some of these streams for spotted bass and smallmouth. And now that I've gotten back into that game on the fly rod, there's just, I don't know, there's an awesomeness of coming back to that first love. And it's like I've rediscovered how cool those species really are.

And talking about the northern pike game, they kind of get the reputation of not being the best fighters in the world. It's kind of like a walleye. People want to catch walleye to eat, not necessarily because they're the best fight in the world. But there is nothing like watching a pike chase down a fly and eat. It happens in the blink of an eye, but it's the most explosive, awesome takes that you're going to see. And so we've really enjoyed that as well.

So the steelhead really overshadows things and we're really doing what we can to tell people that we guide far beyond just steelhead and we get out there, enjoy all the resources that we have close. So yeah, the smallmouth game is, has always kind of been a part of what we do. It just hasn't really shown through because the steelhead are just such a big game here in our area.

Marvin Cash (27:47-27:59): Yeah. It's also helpful too, right? Cause it allows you to extend your fishing season once the spring steelhead thing kind of goes to the side of the road.

Patrick Robinson (28:00-29:35): Yeah, absolutely. And like I said earlier, our streams are spate streams. So that means that in the summertime, even our biggest water, sometimes you can hop, skip and jump your way across and would barely get your feet wet. So what that means is that the streams don't always fish like some people would expect them to.

And so I think people, once they see the river levels drop to barely moving, that they don't think there's anything there to do. And to be quite honest with you, we kind of shift when it comes to chasing smallmouth. We shift from fishing our steelhead streams in April and May and maybe early June. About that time frame, we shift inland and we start fishing a lot of streams that don't dump into Lake Erie. Instead, they may flow into the Ohio River because those rivers, are they going to come down a little bit to summer pool? Of course they will.

But they're not spate streams like the streams that we have. Some of the waters are spring fed. Others are tailraces. I mean, you've got all kinds of different streams. But those inland rivers don't oftentimes drop out the way some of our Lake Erie streams do. And so we've really been getting around and hitting all the water available to us, Within three hours of where I live, we're hitting it all.

Marvin Cash (29:36-29:47): Got it. To come back to Steelhead, you guys fish three seasons. You fish fall, winter, and spring. We're right on the cusp of the fall season. How are things looking?

Patrick Robinson (29:48-30:46): Right now, we're still waiting for the big rains. About three or four weeks ago, we got a storm that came through that dropped about three or four inches of rain. That'd be really good to have about right now. So this is, we're just days away from October, and October is always kind of considered our early season month. It kind of kicks things off, but that's typically on low water.

So from this point on, any major rain we get that even bumps the streams up in the slightest is going to bring fish in. So if we were to get a four inch rain right now, we would have tons of fish spread out probably through the first five, six, seven miles of river because those fish waste no time when water's high pushing up. So at this point, we're really just waiting for that first major rain to distribute fish throughout the system. And then it's going to be game on.

Marvin Cash (30:47-30:53): Yeah. And I guess what I understand is it's almost like the fish are stacked up in the lake, just waiting really for the water to drop the drawbridge so they can go upstream.

Patrick Robinson (30:54-32:07): They are yeah and this time of year one of the things that we like to do if somebody really wants to get out you can oftentimes you can go down and actually do some fishing in the surf if you can find stretches of beach where you can walk. I would compare it to like some of the striper fishing that I've done in the ocean where you find fish cruising right along the edge or snook cruising right along the edge of the surf and you can look out when the water is right you can look out and see the schools swimming along and use long rods and long casts some sink tip lines some bigger streamers and just strip streamers and they will aggressively chase flies without a doubt.

And when you catch them in the open water sometimes they're even more fun than they are in the stream because they've got endless water to try and get away and so and they're as fresh ever going to be out there so you can do that or you can even get out in boats and chase them right there in the mouths but yeah they'll stack up they'll stack up in big numbers huge numbers out there in the harbors and just off the mouths.

Marvin Cash (32:07-32:23): with some of those smaller streams yeah so you get the push of rain the water comes up it's like blowing the whistle and they take off upstream where are you going to find those early fall steelhead and how are you going to fish them well the early fall steelhead are not

Patrick Robinson (32:23-35:05): going to be hard to find and the reason being again coming back to the fact that our streams are flashy they're spate streams so we get a big rain we can literally get an inch and a half of rain tomorrow and have it all fall within an hour so there's major runoff and those streams would immediately respond by pulsing up and those fish would come in and within 24 to 36 hours some of those streams are going to be right back down low and clear again.

And so when that happens those fish are going to be easy to find because they're going to find the deepest holes in the stream and most of the rivers are going to go clear enough that you're actually going to be able to see them so sometimes in that early season you may come up on a hole you may see 60 steelhead sitting in gin clear water right and so that can be extremely difficult to deal with if you don't know what you're dealing with.

A lot of guys get super frustrated because they're like I see all these fish but none of them will bite well there's reasons for that if you can see them they can certainly see you and so you've got to be careful how you approach they're definitely going to be more apt to take flies early and late in low light conditions in middle of the day again high sun they're hunkered down man they're doing what they can to keep their heads low because it's kind of like being in the spotlight if you will.

So oftentimes in those kinds of conditions we'll try and get in early strip streamers sometimes those early fish will be aggressive to chase down streamers in the early light. Some guys will even revert to like straight up trout tactics not to say that we don't use trout tactics when we're steelheading on a normal day but when I say straight up trout tactics I'm talking like dry and dropper rigs like ditch the indicator and you're throwing like a Chernobyl with a size 18 dropper nymph off the back right.

The problem is even when our water gets low and clear like that it also slows the flow we don't have high gradient streams so you're not getting a lot of turbulent water you're not getting the type of water where you can throw a cast and within a split second that fly is past the fish I mean there's times where you're literally throwing that fly out there and that steelhead swims up to your fly he's like no that's a size 18 hook that looks like I think the bend on that, that's a caddis hook. They've got all day and then some to look at your flies and pick them apart. It can be challenging in that early, low, clear water. You've got to know what you're doing and how to approach them.

Marvin Cash (35:06-35:14): Got it. As we move into the season, it starts to get really cold, gets icy, and things slow down. What does it look like for winter steelhead?

Patrick Robinson (35:16-38:28): Winter steelhead, if I were to circle back, I totally agree with your assessment that we've got fall, winter, and spring, but I would say that probably 95% of people don't even fish the winter. There's primarily fall and there's spring because by the time winter really rolls in, if you really want to look at when it's officially winter, you're looking at late December. December 21st, I believe, is the official date of the set in for winter.

On most years we don't get but a week or two maybe a little more before most of our streams completely freeze up and sometimes they don't give way until the latest I've ever seen the streams blow out was the end of March right so that's where we're actually into spring at that point so there are numerous years where winter we can't even access those fish now they're there they don't leave the river they stay in the river all winter long but they're under ice and we can't get to them.

So I would say on the average year we have a fall season and spring season but like this last year it was unprecedented we could have fished literally from October all the way through until the steelhead left in May and but most people didn't realize even with it being warmer just out of habit people think the streams aren't fishable and in the middle of the winter and but winter can be a phenomenal experience.

Not only does the scenery change and the rivers become very solitary and quiet but you can have some phenomenal days out there do the fish become more lethargic as the water gets colder and they're not they're not going to fight with the piss and vinegar, if you will, of an early season fish that's right out of the lake. But they're definitely there. They're definitely willing to eat. They're not going to chase as far.

So people say, what's the secret to catching fish in the deep winter months? It's knowing where the fish are going to be and putting that offering right in front of them. Make it as easy for them as possible because they don't want to spend any more energy than is necessary for survival right so whereas in October or early November you may be able to get a fish to chase a streamer 12 feet you'll be lucky to get a fish to move 12 inches in the cold of winter if they don't deem it necessary right so you got to know where those fish are going to be sitting and bump them on the nose.

But winter can be a lot of fun I've got some clients that have fished with me over the years say some of their most memorable days were those days late December where we got eight to ten inches of fresh snow overnight the stream was a winter wonderland not another angler anywhere to be seen on the stream fish coming to hand hot cup of soup for lunch it just makes for good memories.

Marvin Cash (38:28-38:45): Yeah absolutely so conventionally you're going to have a few weeks where you can fish before you get iced over how does that transition into spring work what does it look like how do the fish behave and how do you target them yeah so the

Patrick Robinson (38:45-42:21): transition like I said can really take place anytime but on a standard year you're looking at ice out if we're lucky we'll get one of those warm-ups in February where we just get that unseasonably warm snap that comes through and it's enough to maybe get a rainstorm instead of a snowstorm and it pushes the rivers up and breaks that ice up and starts pushing that ice out and breaking it up.

Those are some of the greatest windows because this is what people don't understand every push of water that we get brings in fish and let me explain that it's kind of a rabbit trail here but let me explain that people are like why I thought that steelhead spawned in the fall and my answer is they do some people say well I thought they spawned in the spring and I say they do and they go what and I'm like well Pennsylvania stocks the fall spawning strain and Ohio stocks the spring spawning strain so literally starting in late September early October as soon as we start getting good rain if the river pushes up we're going to have fresh fish coming in.

Same thing happens in February. If we get a good rain instead of a snow and it pushes that river level up, those spring fish, the Manistee strain that we get from Michigan that Ohio stocks in the streams here in Ohio, we get that first push in February. You better believe that some of those big early season hens are going to be coming in with that push out of ice.

So it'll happen early or mid-February. Sometimes it typically seems to be somewhere around the beginning of March and on a really nasty year like we had, I don't know, probably six, eight years ago. It may not happen until the end of March, but that's very rare. But as soon as that ice goes out, it's game on.

And your tactics are pretty much going to be similar to what they are in the late fall, early winter. The water temps are still going to be pretty cold. Fish aren't going to be chasing as well. But you've got to remember, you've got fresh fish pushing in, whereas in late winter, the fish have pretty much stopped coming in. The fish that were going to come in are there. So you don't have the fresh fish. You've got holdover fish, right? So there's going to be a little bit of a difference in the aggressiveness in that cold water, but still the water is going to be cold. The fish will be a little bit more lethargic.

And then the water can warm far quicker than what most people realize. I've seen water temps jump 5 to 10 degrees in one day when the sun comes out and is beating down hard. So a lot of people, a lot of anglers don't realize the water temp can shift that quick. Now, 10 degrees is going to be pretty drastic. But 5 degrees, that's nothing in a day. You've got clear skies and the sun comes out, and that can make a huge difference in how those fish are going to react.

So watching the weather forecast can really help you out too. Because if you're not the guy who can be out there all day long and you've just got, say, a half day, you're like, man, I'm going to burn a half-day vacation. Watch your weather. See what it's going to do. The water temps are cold and it's supposed to be warm in the afternoon. You may want to hold off, wait for that morning crowd to get off the stream and get out there right after lunch and hit that afternoon stretch and allow that sun to kind of help you out because if that water warms, the fish will become a little bit more aggressive and be more willing to move to a fly.

Marvin Cash (42:22-42:35): Got it. And it's always interesting to me to talk to steelheaders. Obviously you want to do whatever you need to do to catch fish, but if you had your preference, would you prefer to fish for them swinging flies or would you rather nymph them up?

Patrick Robinson (42:37-45:49): Yeah, so I guess you're asking me that question directly. So at this point with where I'm at in my career and my fly fishing experience, I would definitely rather swing them. When you're first starting out, your younger fly fishermen or the guys who are newer to fly, newer to steelheading, it's all about the numbers game. That's the luxury, I guess, that we have here on Steelhead Alley is we've got numbers. In other locations, they may not have the numbers. So a lot of guys up here are all about the numbers.

And I've had some guys criticize me over the years because I'm like I'm just not all about the numbers like oh you're one of those guys and I'm like no I'm not one of those guys I just I would rather take quality over quantity and there's the old adage the tug is the drug and the tug that you get on a swing is not the same that you get on running an Indy rig with a couple of flies under the split shot.

It's just not, as I have taught a lot of anglers, how to swing flies, how to properly, not just how to Spey cast, but how to properly swing a fly. I always tell my guys, after you've made your cast, strip back about 12 inches of line between your cork and your reel. And they're like, why? And I'm like, I call it a shock absorber loop. And they're like, for what? I'm like, so the fish doesn't jerk the rod out of your hand. And they're like, come on, seriously? And I'm like, yeah, seriously. I'm like, if you're not paying attention and a fish hits you hard enough, they'll jerk the rod right out of your hand. They're like, no way.

A few years ago, I had it proven right in front of me. Guy was fishing his own rod and reel. And we were in a real nice run. And he had made a great cast. He had set the cast up and he's fishing it. He's kind of looking over his shoulder, talking to me. That's one of the cool things about swinging a fly. You don't necessarily have to watch so much as you would with an Indy rig presentation.

He's sitting there talking to me and he didn't have that shock absorber loop like I told him to have and a fish came up and crushed that fly so hard it jerked the whole rod and reel right out of his hand it hits the water disappears and he looks back at me I mean he was just about scooping water with his mouth because it was hanging open so far and he's like what do I do I'm like it's your rod and reel you better go after it right.

He starts charging downstream looking for it and all of a sudden thankfully the reel was heavy enough that it contacted the bottom and caused the rod tip to just break the surface and he could see the rod tip. And so he charged for it, reached down to the water, and was able to grab the rod as it was heading out into the hole. And when he pulled it up out of the water, I told him, I said, come tight, back up. He comes tight and the fish is still there. We actually landed the fish. I think I probably got that somewhere on our Facebook page back a number of years. I think we actually took the picture of the fish and actually told the story on Facebook maybe.

True story so I would much rather swing up steelhead and one of the new things a lot of guys are starting to do which is equally as fun is stripping flies for steelhead.

Marvin Cash (45:50-45:59): Very very cool any other suggestions you want to share for just the regular joe steelhead angler that can help them be a little bit more effective on the water

Patrick Robinson (46:02-47:25): Oh yeah the most important rule in fishing is this if it's not working change something so that's the rule that I live by that's the rule that I guide by and that's what I teach all of my clients and it's not working change something that can mean change your fly that can mean change your tippet size that may mean change the speed of your presentation the depth at which you're presenting those flies if I didn't already say it the speed at which you present those flies if it's not working change something.

Because the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results so that's the best advice that I can give anybody fishing in any style don't continue to just flail the water minute after minute hour after hour if it's not working man understand it's not working and find what is because there's something on any given day there's something out there that's going to work.

The other important thing that I did mention it's not all about presentation sometimes it's about location right so if you're not catching something there change your location but change nonetheless no absolutely and I've

Marvin Cash (47:25-47:35): heard a lot of great things about you guys I haven't had a chance to fish with you but to let our listeners know just kind of what is a day on the water like with SAO and how's it

Patrick Robinson (47:35-52:27): different from other outfitters oh man how's it well a day on the water it's going to begin around sun up there is pressure on steelhead alley and so I wouldn't say that we always get into a foot race but we do try and be there on the water before the general public does now it doesn't mean we go stand on water for hours before the sun comes up. But we're going to get down there about the time the sun's coming up so that we can get the best crack at some of the best fish and the best holes.

But when you're out there on the water, I can tell you this, you can expect to spend your day with somebody who's very professional and polished and good at what they do. I'm extremely picky about who we allow. Greg and I did this for about 11 years together. And we watched a number of people come and go and some really, really fishy guys. A lot of people like to use that term.

But somebody told me a long time ago when I first started guiding, because when I was coming into it and interested in it, I thought it was all about being the fishiest guy. Right. And somebody that had been in the industry for a long time said Patrick if there's one thing you need to understand it's this guiding isn't about being the fishiest guy guiding is about people skills and he says if you know how to catch fish you can put anybody on fish but not everybody can be a people person.

And so when you come out with a SAO guy not only are you going to have somebody that's professional and somebody that's fishy but hopefully you're going to have an experience with somebody who's polished they're polite they're going to do the very best they can to show you the very best day they can they're going to be honest with you and I'll be honest with you there's some guys out there that flat out aren't honest with you.

And we tell our guys listen if we tell you we're going to fish today the reason we're telling you we're going to fish today is because we think there's a chance at catching fish and some people look at the water and they're like man I don't know that looks like that water's got an awful lot of color in it and we're like, yeah, but if it had too much color, we'd have left you sitting in the truck and told you don't waste your money. So if we're here, it's because we know there's a chance of catching these fish.

And we've had a lot of people be very surprised at the end of the day as to how many fish they actually caught. And so we still believe that everybody works hard for their money. And we don't take, I don't like to spend somebody's money just because I can. And we kind of tell our guides that too. So we want people to have the very best day they can and know that when they come off the water at the end of the day that they say, man, that was the best money I could have ever spent.

And so how do we, how's that going to be different from everybody else? Marvin, I could sit here and tell you stories that clients have told us about competition. But one thing that Greg and I done for years and years and years is, we've always tried to keep our heads down and plow ground and not worry about what other people say about us or what other people think about us. We've always tried to make it a habit of not comparing ourselves to others because we want to be the ones that everybody's trying to compare themselves to.

And so, we like to think that everything we do is going to be a step above. I can't say that it always is, but I can say that that's what we're shooting for. And so that's just kind of the spirit behind SAO is we want to be the very best out there that we can be. And I think that our track record and our reputation precedes itself.

And so, yeah, I think that that's kind of what helped us shine. And the other thing that people say to us over and over and over and over again, including people who want to work for us, is they're like we have never seen an outfitter that works as a team like you guys do. And I'll just be flat out honest with you. If you can't work as a team and you want to be that hot rod, solo hot shot, this is not the place for you, man. We won't tolerate that. We firmly believe that together we're stronger than any one individual. And that's the philosophy that we work by. And I think that does right by our clients too.

Marvin Cash (52:28-52:45): Yeah. And I think that's such an incredible strength too, because and I can remember, I interviewed Schultz about a year ago and he was talking about the same thing where like you got everybody's out trying something different, fishing different places and comparing notes so that everybody's clients can have the best day possible on the water.

Patrick Robinson (52:46-52:46): Yep.

Marvin Cash (52:47-52:55): So I always ask all of my guide guests to share what they think the biggest misconception people have about the life of a fishing guide.

Patrick Robinson (52:57-53:42): Well, I think you kind of hit on that earlier. Like if I've heard this once, I've heard it 10,000 times. Like, man, you've got the best job in the world and you get to fish all the time. I'm like, correction. Since I became a fishing guide, I fish far less than I ever did. Cause I don't have time to fish for myself. I said, I fish vicariously through my clients. And they're like, seriously? I'm like, yeah. I said, I've caught like five steelhead in the last two weeks. And they're like, how's that? I'm like, cause the client handed me the rod and said it was a rock. So yeah, that's probably the biggest misconception about fishing guides is that, man, you got the best job in the world. You must fish all the time. I'm like, no, I take people fishing all the time.

Marvin Cash (53:49-53:58): Yeah. That's pretty funny. I'm going to see, so we've talked for a while. I'm going to see if I can get you to throw your opinion in on the whole East coast, West coast steelhead conversation.

Patrick Robinson (53:59-59:06): Yeah. So, my opinion is that there's really no comparison, and anybody that wants to compare it, I think is short-sighted. There's no doubt that the West Coast steelhead is where they originated. West Coast steelhead are wild fish. They travel hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles. One of our previous guides and one of my best friends, Ben Barger, just bought property, prime property up on the Clearwater in northern Idaho. So, and by the time those fish have come from the ocean and hit the Clearwater, I mean, it's somewhere between 500 and a thousand miles, I think.

So there really is no comparison between that fish, what they would call a B run steelhead out there in those Western streams and the steelhead that we've got here. There just isn't. Where we shine is the fact that you can go out there and fish for steelhead for a week and get a couple of grabs, maybe land a fish in a week. And your diehards, man, they would say it's absolutely worth it. And I'm not arguing that it is or that it isn't.

But you can't compare West Coast steelhead to Midwest because the reason people come here is because they don't have to go fish for an entire week hoping to hook a fish. They can come up here and they're going to get shots at fish. I mean, I think the youngest individual that we have ever taken out steelhead fishing was five years old. And we actually had that young man doing a basic roll cast. He obviously didn't teach him the depths of Spey casting, but he was actually doing a basic roll cast and swinging flies. And he actually got an awesome grab one day and landed a fish on the swing, right? Five years old. You're not going to get a five-year-old catching a fish out in a western river. You're just not.

So our streams here are far more forgiving to beginners. You're going to have far more shots at fish. It's definitely, if you want to say, more user-friendly to all levels of experience, from ranked beginners to those that have traveled all over the world. And so, I've got all the respect in the world for those West Coast steelhead. But it's tragic what's going on out there right now. I mean, they just shut down the steelhead season last year out in Idaho. And I've talked with a lot of guides that actually guide on some of the waters out there in Oregon. And they flat out tell me it's not even worth it anymore. The numbers of fish that are coming back have dropped so drastically.

I guess this is the opportunity to kind of throw a plug in our government our politicians need to take note man there's things that need to change because some of our fisheries out there are unhealthy and they've got to make changes or some of these fish are going to go away and I think in recent years the fly fishing film tour and the film that came out Damn Nation that kind of highlighted I think it was that film that highlighted the Elwha dam that came down and how the salmon returned to their native spawning habitat far earlier than anybody ever could have imagined.

There's things that need to happen out there for that fishery to come back to a place of true viability. And so getting back to your original question, not to run down too long of a rabbit trail, there's really no comparison. I've got mad respect for those West Coast fish. And to be honest with you, I've not had the chance to fish for one. I hope to be out there fishing with my buddy Ben on the Clearwater here soon and get me one of those big B-run fish. I'll be happy to hook one and fight it. I'll be even happier if I get to land it and look at it with my own eyes up close.

But yeah, here in the Midwest, man, you can just come and there are times it's unfortunate that we have as many fish as we do because it teaches people to believe that steelheading is something that it originally wasn't. But one of the benefits is that we've got as many fish as we've got. And so people are always going to have a chance at cracking a fish. One of the things that we guarantee our clients is we'll always put you on fish. I don't think that they can tell you that out West, there's just not that many fish. So we can guarantee we'll put you on fish. Can't guarantee you're going to catch those fish, right? That's up to them.

Marvin Cash (59:07-59:15): Yeah, absolutely. So talking about putting people on fish, we're right on the cusp of a steelhead season this year. How's your guide calendar look?

Patrick Robinson (59:16-01:00:22): It's looking pretty good. With the whole COVID madness, I don't know what else to call it, but all of that going on, I think a lot of people have been, early on, I think people were skeptical as to what was going to happen. I mean, a lot of the states shut down our guide services for the spring. So that did happen for us. We were only a couple, two, three weeks into our season when we finally shut operations down. Pennsylvania mandated it. Ohio did not, but we just felt as one of the leading outfitters in the Midwest, we needed to kind of lead by example. And so we shut down and in short order, the majority of everybody else did as well.

But we were kind of skeptical of what was going to happen for this fall. But I think guys have just gotten to the place where they're like, man, if I'm not going to do anything else, I'm going to fish. And so our bookings are actually looking really strong. I would say they're on par with a normal season. So we're happy and we're looking forward to a great fall season. And we'll see what the weather brings us.

Marvin Cash (01:00:22-01:00:29): Absolutely. And so what's the best way for folks to reach out and book a trip and to follow the adventures of SAO on the water?

Patrick Robinson (01:00:31-01:01:16): Yeah, so, we're on social media, so you can find us on Facebook or Instagram. That's the easiest way to kind of see some of the most recent things that we were doing. If you wanted to book a trip with us or just inquire about our services, the best way to get a hold of us is either by phone or email. You can reach us at 1-888-453-5899, or you can reach me personally by email at team, T-E-A-M, at steelheadalleyoutfitters.com. And either one of those will get me in fairly short order and I'll be happy to answer any questions and talk about fishing.

Marvin Cash (01:01:17-01:01:21): Well, that's awesome. Well, listen, Patrick, I really appreciate you spending some time with me this evening.

Patrick Robinson (01:01:23-01:01:25): My pleasure, man. Thanks for inviting me on.

Marvin Cash (01:01:25-01:01:27): Yeah, absolutely. Have a good one.

Patrick Robinson (01:01:28-01:01:28): You too.

Marvin Cash (01:01:30-01:01:49): Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you like the podcast, please subscribe and leave us a review in the podcatcher of your choice. And a big thank you to this episode's sponsor, our friends at Nor-vise. Please visit www.nor-vise.com today. Tight lines, everybody.