S4, Ep 143: FLY TYING REDUX: Matt Grajewski of Adaptive Fly

**Marvin Cash (00:04):**
Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. On this episode, I'm joined by Matt Grajewski of Adaptive Fly. Matt shares his fishing and tying journey and we take a deep dive into his unique style of predator flies. I think you're really going to enjoy this interview. But a couple of housekeeping items first. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out and a shout out to this episode sponsor. This episode is sponsored by our friends at Steelhead Alley Outfitters. If you're going to chase steelhead or pike in the Lake Erie tribs you need to do it with the guys at Steelhead Alley Outfitters. Remember go with SAO so head on over to steelheadalleyoutfitters.com and get set up today. Now on to our interview. Well Matt welcome to The Articulate Fly.

**Matt Grajewski (00:54):**
Thank you. Thank you for having me on. Yeah, I'm looking forward to our conversation.

**Marvin Cash (01:00):**
And we have a tradition. We always ask our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

**Matt Grajewski (01:07):**
The earliest fishing memory, it's kind of a tough one because I grew up on Lake St. Clair and we were out there all the time and so it's kind of a cumulative memory of being out there all the time. I would say probably one of my most vivid ones was the first time I saw a brown trout over 20 inches that my dad had caught. And I think that really stuck with me because it changed what my brothers and I did and how we fished and the type of fish we pursued of going after the largest fish or the largest fish of that species in a water. And it really just flipped everything that we did.

**Marvin Cash (01:49):**
Yeah, very neat. And when did you get drawn to the dark side of fly fishing?

**Matt Grajewski (01:55):**
It was, my dad is the type, I grew up in a fishing family. My mom fished too. We were a family of six. I was probably in high school before I realized people took vacations that weren't centered around hunting and fishing. So my dad always was whatever worked. So he introduced us to bait fishing, lure fishing, fly fishing, if that was the most effective method. So we were always exposed to it. And it was one of those things, especially being a family of six in the boat, my dad didn't break out the fly rod a lot. So when he did, it was kind of very intriguing to my brothers and I. So that's probably what did it. And in my teens, it just grew more and more.

**Marvin Cash (02:37):**
And so, on the fly fishing front, was it trout or was it steelhead? Or obviously you've got a pretty amazing smallmouth fishery too, right?

**Matt Grajewski (02:45):**
Yeah. So as a kid, it was largemouth and bluegills. Like that's when my dad would break out poppers, rubber spiders. And then, but once we did a lot of trout fishing. And once we started fly fishing for trout, that's when the bug got bad and wanted to do it just more and more. So it was really trout that really sucked us in.

**Marvin Cash (03:09):**
Got it. So you come from a fishing family. Happy to talk about your mom and your dad or your brothers. But who are some of the folks that have kind of mentored you on your fly fishing journey?

**Matt Grajewski (03:18):**
Yeah. And I would say on my fly fishing journey it's kind of tough to say because my family, we fished so much that I didn't even fish with anybody outside of my family till I was away at college. So growing up, it really was my parents and my brothers always. My dad would be at a garage sale and see another fly rod that was, the first one I remember using was made by Eagle Claw. The line was terrible. I didn't know it at the time. It was a floating line that did not float. Who knows how old it was. So my parents were always so encouraging about getting us in the outdoors. So it was really them and even though my mom didn't really fly fish, same thing. She would be out and say oh I saw this fly box this guy sold me for five dollars can you use any of these? And there's a hundred flies packed into a metal fly box. So it was really them. That's obviously pre-internet days so it was hard to really get exposure to other people especially since I fished with my family so much. It was really just my parents.

**Marvin Cash (04:28):**
Yeah very neat. Was that Eagle Claw one of the Eagle Claw fiberglass rods?

**Matt Grajewski (04:35):**
It was. It was. I still remember it was black and it had like the gold logo on it. And if I remember it correctly I believe it was a 7-8 fly rod. We used it for bluegills or trout or whatever we could fish for. We didn't even know when we were little kids what the difference was and I'm sure it was totally overkill but we caught fish on it and we had a blast.

**Marvin Cash (04:58):**
Yeah it's interesting. If you don't have it in your nostalgic collection, I relatively recently interviewed Cameron Mortensen at The Fiberglass Manifesto. He sells those on his site for like 30 bucks, I think.

**Matt Grajewski (05:20):**
Oh, really? Yeah. They work, right? All rods catch fish.

**Marvin Cash (05:22):**
Yeah, exactly. And so when did you get the fly tying bug?

**Matt Grajewski (05:22):**
So my older brother, so I have an older brother and a younger brother and there's four years difference between all three of us. So we're very close in age. And my older brother, Eric got a little, it was probably a $20 kit that we clamped to a desk in his room. And the first thing we used to tie were like ice fishing jigs for when we were kids. And then, so that really started it. And I was probably in my late teens, I bought a Griffin vise. I still remember it. Same thing that the whole kit was probably under a hundred dollars. And started tying Hare's Ears and Pheasant Tails and Woolly Buggers because especially I remember being in college and buying a dozen nymphs was a lot of money to a college student. So I figured it'd be probably a better idea just to learn how to do this. So that's, and then once I started doing it, taking something out that you made, it just snowballed from there.

**Marvin Cash (06:21):**
Yeah. And I imagine we're talking to a little bit kind of pre-internet, right? Which means that the people that kind of influenced you and mentored you in fly tying are probably not what we would expect today. Who are some of those folks?

**Matt Grajewski (06:34):**
And really for me, it was, so there was a gentleman here in just north of Grand Rapids, that Glenn Blackwood, that owned a fly shop. And he sold materials to me super cheap and gave me a few flies as examples. Like you said, because it was pre-internet. And the internet was probably just starting to be a thing at that time. I remember having to research for school papers, but there wasn't a whole lot of information in fly tying. So it was literally just staring at that Hare's Ear and trying to figure out, okay, I have this material. This looks like what the tail is. And then it looks like this is wrapped around here. And it's got to be a little bit bigger at the front. And that was it. I mean, I didn't even know what a half hitch was or any of that. The first ones were probably terrible, but the fish really don't care. They worked and caught fish.

**Marvin Cash (07:30):**
Yeah, and I imagine, too, probably you're still making trips to the library, too, right?

**Matt Grajewski (07:38):**
Exactly. Again, that stuff is not anything fly tying related was not easy to find. Growing up in the area, I grew up in basically like Metro Detroit. There wasn't a lot of fly fishing at all. Mostly took place related to trout. There wasn't a whole lot of warmwater fly fishing going on back then. I think that was another one of the draws for us was my dad fishing for bass and bluegills. We hadn't seen anybody else do it. I know people were but if we went up to our cottage on the AuSable River you would see people dry fly fishing all the time. So it was, we just weren't exposed to it a ton.

**Marvin Cash (08:38):**
Got it. And so what do you tie on today?

**Matt Grajewski (08:38):**
I tie on a Renzetti saltwater traveler. Which is really for me, I mean all vices hold hooks. You find which one works for you. I'm obviously a little bit biased working for them but it fits what I do very well. I like a sort of a minimalist vice where a lot of the vices out of the way because of the size flies I tie. So it works very well for me.

**Marvin Cash (08:48):**
Yeah, and I imagine you like the saltwater version because you're generally tying on pretty big hooks, right?

**Matt Grajewski (08:54):**
Right, right, yeah, because the range on that is 4 to 8. And it is not very often, while it'll hold a size 12, wouldn't be ideal on a regular basis. But when I put a size one hook in my vice, it seems small to me.

**Marvin Cash (09:11):**
And I guess it means you have to go buy all your Blue-Winged Olive dry flies now, right?

**Matt Grajewski (09:15):**
Yeah. Yeah. If I have to, now that I have my oldest son is 13 and I'm trying to expose them to more stuff. And I've been getting them out trout fishing a little bit more. And I had to, I found a box that had dry flies in it from probably 10 years ago and they still float. I was like, well, at least I don't have to tie any. But I remember as a kid buying a half dozen Hendricksons and they would last me years.

**Marvin Cash (09:43):**
Yeah, of course, you could always call Lily and have her just send you a regular traveler, right?

**Matt Grajewski (09:48):**
That's right. I could. The fact that I have three saltwater travelers now seems a little bit excessive. I need her to send me a master vise is what I need. If you talk to her, I've been working on her. I feel like I'm getting closer there. But that would be great because that hook range is like 8 out to 26.

**Marvin Cash (10:15):**
Yeah, so that'll cover everything.

**Matt Grajewski (10:17):**
Yeah, there you go. And throw in a pair of shank jaws and you'll be ready to go, right?

**Marvin Cash (10:19):**
Yeah, just a thousand dollar package, just send it my way.

**Matt Grajewski (10:19):**
Yeah, there you go.

**Marvin Cash (10:19):**
So, so you tie predator flies now and I know that's not, tying for other people it's not quite the same as what I would generally think of as a production tier because you're not sitting there like cranking out 50 dozen number 12 Elk Hair Caddis. But, you know, what drew you to wanting to tie for other people?

**Matt Grajewski (10:42):**
So I would say I fought it for a long time because I enjoyed it so much. I always had this concern that it would ruin something that I enjoyed. But after I lost my leg in 2016 and it took me a while to be able to return to work and the house starts to feel like a prison because you're just in it all day a lot of times by yourself and tying flies was, coming off a lot of those pain meds battling withdrawals tying flies was what really kind of would help take my brain off the withdrawal symptoms and then it just kind of spun into taking a few orders to help pass the time and that just kind of kept going and going.

**Marvin Cash (11:26):**
What was the biggest surprise as you moved from tying for yourself to tying for other people?

**Matt Grajewski (11:34):**
I would say it was probably just the number of orders. I'm not a big, I've never been, even when forums, while I would spend some time on forums and on social media, I always felt a little bit like I lived under a rock in those terms of what was available online. So I always just went by learning, going out and doing it. And so when I started, when I did like a social media post that I would be doing, taking some orders, I was really surprised at the number of orders that I received and the number of orders I continued to receive to the point to where I wondered if it was a good idea with this term, something I enjoy in a hobby into work. And so that was the thing that probably surprised me the most. I mean, maybe I don't know what to call it, but I was surprised that that many people wanted to buy my flies.

**Marvin Cash (12:29):**
Yeah, really interesting. And, in terms of kind of the day-to-day blocking and tackling of being a production tier, what are some of those challenges that you faced?

**Matt Grajewski (12:39):**
Yeah, so I have, I have a 17-year-old, a 13-year-old and a three-year-old. And, working for Renzetti, it's all website work and some social media stuff. And so finding the time, especially with COVID this year and all my two oldest were did virtual all year. So they're home all the time. So it's just finding that time of feeling like you're not putting a family aside too much, because like I said, some of these flies could if I have an order of a half dozen, that could be two plus hours of time. So it's just finding the time and balancing everything.

**Marvin Cash (13:22):**
Did you have a problem with COVID? I know there are massive supply chain problems, right? And, you know, I certainly have experienced issues procuring materials to tie flies with. Did that impact you as well?

**Matt Grajewski (13:35):**
It didn't impact me because I'm fortunate to know some people that I could always reach out to. Like I use a lot of Whiting American rooster saddles and those are very hard to get, but between Mike Schultz and Kelly Galloup, they always had my back, which I was just very, very fortunate. Otherwise, I'm sure I would have run into issues. And partly, I think the materials I use aren't as common or a lot of tiers don't use. So that might have helped me out a little bit where supply doesn't have to be high because not a lot of people are buying it. But just fortunate I have some people I can reach out to.

**Marvin Cash (14:17):**
Yeah, absolutely. And, you were talking about learning to fly fish basically for panfish and largemouth bass. You know what drew you to predator flies?

**Matt Grajewski (14:24):**
So when we started like I would say in my probably around 14, 15 years old, trying to catch the biggest trout in the river became something my brothers and I just really enjoy doing and when a trout gets especially over 23, 24 inches it just becomes the predator and the way that they, the way that they attack a fly or the way they attack a small trout or a sculpin. So that was an ease like that was kind of the bridge to going after pike and musky more. I mean these were things that we fished for with gear when we were kids. So once we started tying flies six, seven, eight inches and getting them to cast and swim well then it was an easy transition into just other predator stuff.

**Marvin Cash (15:18):**
Got it. Because I guess that probably happened about the same time that the gear the tackle got so much better for I guess what I would call kind of non-traditional fly fishing species right?

**Matt Grajewski (15:26):**
Yeah, yeah there was. I mean even in the very beginning I remember using sometimes using, what were tarpon rods. There wasn't a lot of 10, 11-weights you could get your hands on but the lines got a lot better. You had 400, 450, 500 grain sinking lines and some of those came from out east that were used for stripers. So you had to mix and match at that time but the equipment was available and it was adequate.

**Marvin Cash (15:55):**
Yeah were you rolling your own heads on your fly lines?

**Matt Grajewski (16:01):**
You know I didn't really have to just because of the, you had like Outbound lines that were made to throw like bigger flies into wind. Now what was considered big at that time was different. That's where really anything over that, seven, eight inches would have been considered big. But the grains and the lines were heavy enough that you could get them out there. I messed a little bit with trying to build our own and, I had a lot of T8, T11, T14 from swinging flies for steelhead. But it was just, it was kind of clunky and because you have to strip the line all the way up as you're aware to the last two, three feet. If you have those knots and that clunkiness it can get just really cumbersome over the day.

**Marvin Cash (16:45):**
No, absolutely. And, as preparing for the interview, I was looking at your online store and, looking at your flies. They have a very distinct style, and I was wondering how you would describe that to folks.

**Matt Grajewski (16:59):**
So, I mean, that is actually, that's a really good question. When I saw that, I thought that was really interesting, and it's almost tough for me to really put something on it. But I kind of think of, I want flies that will cast, especially when you're thinking about that size. I want them to fish in a certain way. So I always, and I always like to add something to the fly that I enjoy. When you musky fish you see a fly coming back to you a ton without a fish behind it or on it. So I like to have something on there that I see, I enjoy. So I always think of like cast, fish, fun is kind of a thing that goes through my head when I'm trying to design a fly or I'm trying to tweak a fly. How will it cast, how will it fish and what's in this for me to keep my focus and my attention? And those bigger flies, you have a large canvas. So it is a lot of art. You can add whether it's color or different materials that you can't use on smaller flies that allow you to be more creative.

**Marvin Cash (18:13):**
Yeah it's interesting right because I mean the heads are very distinctive right. It's usually a flat head of a synthetic or bucktail right. And the tail sections are generally feather driven, right. How, you know, how did you kind of arrive at that style? I mean, what was the performance feature that drove you to that?

**Matt Grajewski (18:34):**
Yeah. So being from Michigan, just one of those things you grew up in life and there are things that you're fortunate of being in a certain area and exposed to. And guys like Kelly Galloup was definitely a big influence for me and his fly design. So he used a lot of slopping tails. You can accomplish quite a bit with a stiffer webbier tail. You get profile, you get it's light and easy to cast and you get kind of that what guys always refer to as the kick out of that fly. And so I learned a lot in tying trout flies and some things that I saw from Kelly when I was younger, and then learning the true benefits of pushing water, not from a fish attraction standpoint, but from a hydraulic standpoint and how you can get that fly to swim. So that was a lot of the basis of a tail that has a purpose, doesn't have too much drag. I do use some synthetics for tails, and I'm very deliberate about which ones I use so they don't have too much drag and kill the momentum, the energy I've inputted into that fly. So it's kind of those two things, like you said, it's the tail and the head are a big part of that fly and what you want it to do.

**Marvin Cash (19:54):**
Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things, and we were talking about this a little bit before we started recording, to be tying predator flies, I thought it was really interesting that you, I would kind of say, it's maybe an old school chassis in the sense of that you're still tying on pretty long shank hooks. I don't think your flies use shanks and you're doing kind of looks like the more traditional loop to attach the second hook. I was kind of interested about that because that seems a little bit different from kind of where a lot of predator fly tiers are.

**Matt Grajewski (20:25):**
Yeah. And it's kind of funny, like when you, like you said, when we started talking about this before we went live and it was to think of it as old school is, I mean, it kind of reflects my age, but also just anything in fly tying related to large streamers now is becoming old school that it's been around that long. But that, again, probably comes from my background of stuff like what Kelly and guys like Russ Madden were doing. And I was always very interested in lure making when I was a kid. And I think, again, that was an easy transition to fly tying because I'm making the lure and how glide baits work, how jointed Rapalas work. And where with shanks you get a lot of sort of a slinky action to it and you can get a lot of very lifelike action to it. For a lot of what I fish for and what's productive and what I enjoy is when a fish basically just reacts and doesn't think. And so by using a very, very deliberate joint and a very specific size loop around that rear hook, I'm creating that hinge that I can really get flies to turn and swim very erratically. I'm not, for what I do, I'm not concerned with how lifelike it's looking. It's the predator fish sees something, it looks wounded, it looks freaked out, it looks like the predator needs to, this fish is in fight or flight. What am I going to do? It's my job to just kill it. That's the reaction I'm looking for. And I can accomplish that with that old school style.

**Marvin Cash (22:03):**
Yeah. And interesting too, because I imagine, right, that, the fish that you like to target with those flies are so large that that kind of adage about not wanting to have all that leverage and that really long shank really doesn't apply because it's not like a trout cranking down on like a three or four X long streamer hook.

**Matt Grajewski (22:24):**
Right. And you have, muskies, you have very long and wide head shakes. I mean, on an average size musky, that head could really be covering about three feet of distance. It's not like more of like the quick wiggle of a trout. And while there absolutely are some benefits to shorter shanked hooks, it really comes down to even the leader set up and how well you bury that hook in that fish that I've never had a ton of trouble with losing fish. And if I go to shorter shank hooks, I lose what I'm accomplishing in action. And there are guys like, obviously, like Blane that is doing some really cool stuff with shanks and, with getting more of like a jerkbait action to that fly. So it certainly is possible. It's just that I get that old school style that I come from is something I enjoy so much. While I really admire some of the more newer modern stuff, mine is kind of a mix.

**Marvin Cash (23:27):**
Yeah, very neat. And, we've talked a little bit about kind of the aesthetic that you like, and we've talked a little bit about kind of the head and the tail system. But why don't you tell folks a little bit about, your design philosophy when you're trying to create another, a new pattern?

**Matt Grajewski (23:43):**
It kind of goes off of that kind of the cast, fish, fun. I always encourage people to be deliberate about what you want to accomplish with a fly. The larger the fly gets, the easier it is to just start adding stuff to it and add too much material. Adding too much material is probably the most common mistake that I see. So it's how do I create the profile I want with the least amount of materials? And what do I want that fly to do? Do I want it to jig, drop on the paws? Do I want it to kick sideways or up on the paws? And all of those things from where I add weight to every single predator fly I tie and where I add that weight is based on how I want the fly to swim. Right. So all of that has to factor in. And then where I'm placing that weight could also change how I'm, what materials I can tie in where, because the larger the fly, the larger the amount of weight, a large amount of space it could take up on a shank or make materials difficult to tie in. So, a lot of it was trial and error in the beginning and learning, starting to learn what worked. But that's really, I usually always start with what action do I want? Then I start to think about what profile, whether it's from top to bottom or how long I want that fly to be. And then that kind of transitions into all of those other aspects to build that out.

**Marvin Cash (25:16):**
Yeah. And not to ask you to give away any trade secrets, but that's okay. But, you know, I guess to me, there are kind of, I guess, two things. I mean, can you talk a little bit about kind of how the head shape and the tail material and then where you place the weight relates to the action that you're trying to get in the fly?

**Matt Grajewski (25:34):**
Yep. So the, like the easiest, most obvious one is weight in the front. If you want the fly to drop. I mean, a jig is maybe the most effective bait ever created because most dying fish fall to the bottom. They don't float to the top. So that jig is the very effective dying motion of a fish. So that's the easiest one. Then if I really want a fly to kick to the side and give me more of that glide action, it's a rear weight. And that's typically pretty much the very back of whatever the last section is that I'm tying in. There are some variations, but that's the general idea. And I've given this analogy a bunch, but it's that trailer with too much wood in it. And the back drives the front, right? If you're driving a truck with too much wood in it, you have a hinge at the hitch, right? That's your hinge. So like on an articulated fly, that's where your hinge is. And if you have too much weight in the back, if you try to go down a hill, try to stop that truck, the trailer wants to push the front. And when that happens, right, you lose control of the front. So by putting that weight in the very back, when I impart energy into that fly, when I strip it, that energy carries to the back where that weight is and that weight takes longer to stop. So it pushes the front. I have my hinge in that old school style, forces the front of the fly one direction. And now as soon as I've started that, if you think about if you were to draw a line from yourself to that fly, the fly is turning the other way. So the fly line is also your leader's turning. So when you go to strip again, it has to force it back the other way. So that's where the effectiveness comes from rear weight. And if I have a fly where I'm more concerned about it, just really kind of having that just more of like a hover on the pause, then some of that weight needs to be split a little bit more towards the middle or add something near the front to offset that, whether it's some type of hidden foam or something to kind of balance that out.

**Marvin Cash (27:38):**
Got it. And, how much did your gear fishing from when you were a kid kind of help you shortcut this kind of weighting and hinging of your flies?

**Matt Grajewski (27:47):**
Oh, it helped a ton. Like I used to always watch the Larry Dahlberg lure making segments where he's in his garage, like a mad scientist creating all sorts of stuff. And I just always remember, especially in the glide bait, he was always very deliberate about where he was putting that weight, where he was drilling out that wood glide bait to insert weight. And so that helped it done. And then jointed Rapalas have a very, very specific hinge. It's not long and drawn out. It's two very small metal loops wrapped around each other. So that sort of that hinge is what I always think of in my head, it all just kind of melted together when I was starting to get better action out of my flies.

**Marvin Cash (28:30):**
Got it. And, so you sort of have a fishing problem you want to solve. How long does it kind of take you to go from the drawing board to having a fly that you like to fish for yourself and you're willing to sell online in your shop?

**Matt Grajewski (28:45):**
So now that process is very short. I will never sell a fly without fishing it and fishing it effectively. It's just a personal preference. But I know now when I finish something at the bench, I'll 99 plus percent positive that it's going to swim how I want. 10 years ago that number was definitely lower and there was a lot of trial and error from weight placement, the amount of weight, which materials to use so that it didn't, because anytime, especially in musky fishing if I can get that fly to move two feet or more to one side that's going to dramatically increase the amount of bites I get. So if the materials are creating too much drag and sucking up that energy that I put into the fly, it could kill it after six inches or 10 inches. So, now that I have a really good idea about all of that through trial and error, it's, if I have an idea in my head and I put it to a fly, there's a high likelihood it'll work.

**Marvin Cash (29:49):**
Got it. Yeah. And I guess that explains why there's such a significant drop off from kind of the size and profile of the heads to the tails of your flies too, right?

**Matt Grajewski (29:58):**
Right, yeah. And like really and then some of them are like the Yard Sale has a very flat head. If you look at it from straight on it's, top to bottom it's not small but if you look at it from straight on left to right it is. And that is because that fly I do want it to swim side to side very effectively and not change direction up and down as much. More like your standard glide bait. And that flat profile on the side, I think when people see that fly in person it's how thin that fly is when you look at it straight on, but that flat profile on the sides like a glide bait helps it, what it's pushing against when it's trying to swim.

**Marvin Cash (30:38):**
Got it. And we were talking about this a little bit before we started recording about the differences between pike and musky and how musky guys don't like people to call them pike. We talked a little bit about the difference in the behavior, but could you share with folks maybe kind of how the species behavior is different and how that translates into your fly designs?

**Matt Grajewski (31:00):**
Yeah, definitely. So a pike, like most fish, are as dumb as their stomachs. And a pike's metabolism is so much higher than a musky. And that's probably the biggest difference. And a musky is harder to catch because it feeds less often. It needs to take less chances. It has less competition for food, where a pike, high metabolism, pike are usually high density. They can't take a chance and let something else steal their food. So a pike, I can catch a pike on a fly that has way less action than was required on a musky. And now you could run across a musky that's hungry and you throw something in front of it and it swims like a wet sock, but that fish wants to eat and it'll just climb on. That can definitely happen, but the amount of fish that you hook goes up dramatically, the better action your flies have. And that's true with pike as well, but I could go out and catch 10 pike on a fly that really has no action and comes straight back to the boat. But if the fly swam well, I might've caught 20 or 30. But with musky, it goes from maybe I catch a couple of fish a season, or do I catch 50 fish a season or a hundred fish a season. And that's the biggest difference is the flies have to swim well. And like I said, again, you could take a fly out and it worked and you caught a musky. And a lot of times that's the goal. And it might've been one in your lifetime or one in your season was all you were hoping for. But if you want to start to increase your opportunities at muskies, it's the action and the fly is going to be the biggest difference.

**Marvin Cash (32:39):**
Got it. And, the name of your business is Adaptive Fly. And I was wondering if you could let folks kind of know the genesis of the name.

**Matt Grajewski (32:47):**
Yeah. So it came out of losing my leg. And I learned previously not being handicapped. Handicapped people often like to be referred to as adaptive or you have adaptive athletes. And I've always thought of my tying and fishing as adaptive. This comes from my parents. We never went out and just accepted the fish weren't biting. Like my parents constantly switched up tactics, switched up the water we were fishing, something to figure out how to catch fish that day. So that was just ingrained in me with my tying and my fishing. So it just kind of fit both worlds and it just stuck.

**Marvin Cash (33:28):**
Yeah, very neat. It's kind of what I tell my two boys is basically, find a way or make a way.

**Matt Grajewski (33:34):**
Right, exactly. And it's, sometimes the fish beat you but I know that every time I go out it wasn't from a lack of trying or a lack of switching things up. And honestly I've learned so much on days where it was tough way more than on days when it was good. Because when it's good and they're biting it's like almost anything works right. But it's those tough days of maybe grinding out like one bite that can really be eye-opening that turns into four or five on those days where it was always tough.

**Marvin Cash (34:05):**
Yeah, I think that's kind of true of life in general too, right?

**Matt Grajewski (34:07):**
Right. Yeah, definitely.

**Marvin Cash (34:07):**
So back kind of on the tackling front, I always ask all of the kind of production guys that come on the podcast to share two or three tips that regular tiers can use that they wouldn't think of because they just don't tie as much as you do.

**Matt Grajewski (34:26):**
Gotcha. I would say start with what do you want to accomplish? Like when you sit down the vice, you want to tie and that could be, I bought a cool new material and I want to use it. That could be the start of what do I want to accomplish? That material could lead to, I want to use this for trout or I want to use this for smallmouth. And then, do I want that fly to sink? Do I want it to be buoyant? So always, what do you want to accomplish is what I always think of when I'm going to sit down and do something, try to tie something different or something I haven't before. Another thing would probably be just use what's necessary. There are so many great materials out there today, and they come in such a wider range of colors. It's easy to think, oh, I want to add this, or I want to add that. I mean, it seems like I see rubber legs nowadays on 90% of flies, and sometimes the rubber legs are so buried that they don't actually do any good. So it's like use what's necessary. If you really want to use a certain material, just tie another fly. You're not going to just cram it onto that hook. And then just really experiment. I know like you said if you're not tying a ton or you're not fishing a ton, experimenting might not be in the cards for you that day because you have limited amount of time. But you learn so much from experimenting and from failing, trying something that didn't work and going back to the drawing board. And everyone's different. For me, that's like, that's so enjoyable to me. While I never, when I do something, I think I'm not thinking, man, I hope this fails, but when it fails and I correct it, I change it and it works, that is, that's extremely satisfying for me.

**Marvin Cash (36:12):**
Yeah, absolutely. You know, who are some of the tiers that you kind of follow and keep up with that kind of inspire you, or you kind of keep an eye on kind of what they're doing and how they're using things and how they design their flies?

**Matt Grajewski (36:21):**
Yeah, I would say, I mean, Blane's definitely up there near the top of the list because our tying styles are so different, that I just always curious to what he's working on and what he's doing. Because like you said, the, I'm always going to refer to it as the old school style. Now I feel like that's going to stick. I'm not interested in seeing other people tying the same way that I do. A good buddy of Eli Barant from Great Lakes Fly is always, I mean, he was even a big push for me to get into predator tying. He used to send me flies before I was tying them myself. And I'm always interested in what he's doing. A buddy of mine, Nick Granato out in Utah, who is much more into lure making now than fly fishing, was always doing some really cool stuff. And I'm even interested in the lures he's making now because it gives me ideas. And what I'm doing and probably the last one off the top of my head is there's a lure making company called Team Rhino Outdoors. And I guess they're not lure makers, but they paint lures. And so I'm always, I'm checking their website for when they put out new baits that they painted for color ideas, because that's something I really enjoy.

**Marvin Cash (37:40):**
Yeah, really interesting. What's one tying tool that you can't live without?

**Matt Grajewski (37:46):**
It would, gosh, that's a hard question, right? Because if you sat down at your desk, you'd think every one of them you couldn't live without.

**Marvin Cash (37:53):**
Think about the oddball tool, like not scissors or a whip finisher, but something that the average tier wouldn't think would be mission critical.

**Matt Grajewski (38:03):**
For me, if it's the odd thing that most people might not think of as super critical, it'd probably be the chair. For me, if I were to sit in a chair that wasn't comfortable for me in terms of what I need when I'm tying, which is I really need straight back, sitting up straight at the desk, my lower back starts to kill me after an hour. So I spent a lot of time trying different chairs, researching chairs online before finding what would work for me. But I couldn't. If I had to go back to a chair that didn't work for me ergonomically, it would be really hard to put in the time.

**Marvin Cash (38:43):**
And what chair do you use today? Because I imagine there are a lot of people that are like, my back hurts.

**Matt Grajewski (38:49):**
Yeah, I couldn't even tell you. All I know is I believe I bought it from Office Depot after trying probably 40 chairs driving around to different stores. That night I tried buying chairs online and it's so hard to really get an idea even from the height. I'm not a very big guy. I'm about five, eight. So if my feet aren't flat on the floor, my knees aren't at 90 degrees, there's no way I'm making it four hours in that chair. So I couldn't even tell you what it is.

**Marvin Cash (39:19):**
Yeah, I guess a related point, then that probably means if you like sitting that way up straight, you probably have the stem of your vice higher probably than most people do, right?

**Matt Grajewski (39:28):**
I do. So that's probably another piece of it is I have the extended stem that Renzetti makes. So it's about, I think it's two inches longer than the standard one that comes with the vice. And so, yeah, those two things go together. Without that stem extension, it's too low on the desk for me.

**Marvin Cash (39:48):**
Yeah, and I guess really that's not a predator fly thing. I mean, that's true for everybody because you're trying not to hunch over, right?

**Matt Grajewski (39:54):**
Yes, and you don't, when you sit down and tie like one or two flies here and there before going fishing or crank out a dozen nymphs in a half hour, like you don't realize how valuable that is.

**Marvin Cash (40:07):**
Yeah, it's interesting. My wheels are spinning.

**Matt Grajewski (40:12):**
It's one of those things right, it's just, it's just the more you do something the more you start to figure out and then they become so, you become so used to them that if you didn't say think of something outside of the tool you pick up every time I probably wouldn't have thought of listing the chair but I've spent more time trying to find the right chair than the right vice, the right scissors, the right bobbin, all of that.

**Marvin Cash (40:31):**
Yeah very neat. And is there anything before I let you hop on the horizon for Adaptive Fly you want to share with us?

**Matt Grajewski (40:42):**
I don't know if I have, I wouldn't say anything necessarily new coming up that's really in the hopper. But the website is still fairly new and I have bigger plans for that. Like we were talking in the very beginning about life kind of throws you curveballs with us moving and selling our home. But I do have plans of trying to one keep a higher supply on the website of flies because they're pretty much selling as fast as I can get them on there because I'm not getting a ton on there. But also I just was starting to experiment with selling like four packs of trout flies where it's always just been pike and musky. And maybe incorporating some more of that where I have time because I know there's a lot of people reach out wanting stuff in smaller sizes. So as time permits I'll probably try to do more of that.

**Marvin Cash (41:29):**
Got it. And you know, obviously with COVID receding mercifully, you're probably going to get to fish more this year than you did last year. But is that also, I don't know, do you kind of make your rounds on kind of the fly tying show circuit?

**Matt Grajewski (41:44):**
A little bit, I wish there are certain people that have always been good to me that I try to always make time for like Bar Flies with the Schultzes. I always do that. I don't know if I'll make it, ICAST now that it's in the fall, fall really cuts into whitetail bowhunting. So that's a little bit tougher. There's usually some more local stuff and I do some fundraisers, but I usually don't travel outside of Michigan very much at all. I've done the Streamer Love Fest down in Cotter in Arkansas, like three years before, before COVID hit. And maybe I'll pick up on that again.

**Marvin Cash (42:22):**
Got it. So it's always a good time.

**Matt Grajewski (42:25):**
Yeah, absolutely.

**Marvin Cash (42:25):**
And, before I let you go, you want to let folks kind of know where they can find your shop online, how they can follow you on social media and all that kind of good stuff?

**Matt Grajewski (42:35):**
Yeah. So adaptivefly.com is the website. And like I said, for at least the foreseeable future, you'll just pretty much see out of stock on everything, but you get an idea of what I do. And then on Instagram is adaptivefly. That's really the only social media that I dabble in. But I try to post on that on a regular basis so I can keep everybody up to date of what are the patterns I'm offering, what are the new colors that I'm working on, or what's available on the website. I always try to post it on there when it goes live.

**Marvin Cash (43:07):**
Got it. Well, and I'll certainly drop all that stuff in the show notes, too.

**Matt Grajewski (43:11):**
Thank you.

**Marvin Cash (43:11):**
Absolutely. Well, listen, Matt, I super appreciate you running all the potential buyers for your house out so you could talk to me tonight.

**Matt Grajewski (43:20):**
Not a problem. Not a problem. Like you said, more fishing, the home we're moving to is lakefront and it has pike in it. It has a few tiger muskies in it. So that getting to do more fishing, COVID or not, is definitely in my future.

**Marvin Cash (43:34):**
Well, that's awesome. Well, listen, Matt, thanks again so much.

**Matt Grajewski (43:37):**
Not a problem. I appreciate it.

**Marvin Cash (43:39):**
Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Again, if you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. Tight lines, everybody.