S4, Ep 51: SMALLIE REDUX: Brian Shumaker of Susquehanna River Guides

**Marvin Cash (00:04):**
Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. On this episode, I'm joined by Brian Shumaker, owner of Susquehanna River Guides. We talk about growing up in Pennsylvania, how he got into the guide game and take a deep dive into all things smallmouth. I think you're really going to enjoy this interview. But before we move on to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, it would be great if you could subscribe and leave us a review on the podcatcher of your choice and tell a friend. And a shout out to this episode's sponsor. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Nor-vise. Their motto is tie better flies faster and they produce the only vise that truly spins. To see for yourself, visit www.nor-vise.com. Now, on to our interview.

Well, Brian, welcome to The Articulate Fly.

**Brian Shumaker (00:57):**
Well, thank you, Marvin. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

**Marvin Cash (00:57):**
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to our time together this evening. And we have a tradition on The Articulate Fly. We always ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

**Brian Shumaker (01:09):**
My earliest fishing memory, well, I'm probably going to say I was somewhere around five or six years old. My dad's the one that got us started. I had a, well, my sister who we lost about eight years ago. So it was my sister and I, and my dad would take us over to a section of the Yellow Breeches Creek, which was kind of neat. It had like a little dam, but in the middle it was broken. So he would take us over there fishing, and we would fish, but he'd also take life jackets with us. We put the light jackets on and my sister and I go up above that little dam and we would ride down through that chute and we would swim and fish. So that's pretty much how we got started fishing was doing that kind of stuff.

**Marvin Cash (02:03):**
Yeah. Very neat. And how did you get pulled to the dark side of fly fishing?

**Brian Shumaker (02:08):**
Well, again, it was my dad. My dad still is a very avid fisherman and a fly fisherman, and he fishes some conventional tackle, too, every once in a while. But he's the one that got me started fly fishing, and unfortunately, it was on a trout stream in northern Dauphin County here that wasn't very forgiving because it's surrounded on both sides the stream by a lot of hemlocks so that's where he took me to start fly fishing and of course I'm getting hung up in the hemlock trees about every other cast and so forth and so on and I got frustrated. So I basically put down the fly rod for about I don't know, I think he started me fly fishing I might have been 12 or so and then I put it down for a couple years and I didn't pick it back up to my late teens and then after that I haven't really looked back.

**Marvin Cash (03:21):**
Really neat. And in addition to your dad, who are some of the folks that have mentored you on your fly fishing journey and what do they teach you?

**Brian Shumaker (03:26):**
Well, one of my biggest mentors, a very good friend of mine's Bob Clouser. And Bob lived down in Middletown, which was about a half hour south of me. And I got to know Bob through a fishing club. And basically, he befriended me and he helped me a lot and still does to this day with all aspects of fly fishing. So through my career, Marvin, not only am I very good friends with Bob Clouser, I was also very good friends with Lefty Kreh. Lefty helped me in a lot of different ways. So I've got to know a lot of really good fly fishermen and some of the guys here in the Cumberland Valley. A gentleman by the name of Ed Shenk who just passed away. I was friends with him, was able to do some trout fishing with him. So through my whole fishing career, I've been very fortunate with the help that I've had.

**Marvin Cash (04:45):**
Yeah, that's a pretty amazing list of folks. And how did you become obsessed with smallmouth?

**Brian Shumaker (04:52):**
Well, I grew up in a little town of New Cumberland, which is right on the Susquehanna River. And I grew up two blocks away from the Susquehanna. And also it was very close to where the Yellow Breeches Creek dumps into the Susquehanna. So we did have a little bit of trout fishing in the park where the creek runs through, but it had a dam. So once you got below the dam, it became all warm water because a lot of the species from the Susquehanna would come up the creek. And once they hit the dam, that's as far as they could go. So they stopped trout above the dam, and below the dam was warm water. So basically, I grew up on the Susquehanna River, and that was pretty much my playground. So when I was growing up, and when mom and dad figured I was old enough that I could go explore on my own, I mean, a lot of times in the summer, you'd find us down on the river. And we'd be running the riverbanks, we'd be wading out there in the river. And so pretty much I was a warm water species guy.

**Marvin Cash (06:06):**
Got it. And what made you want to become a fishing guide?

**Brian Shumaker (06:11):**
Well, because I like to help people. And that's one of the, I think, the greatest things that I can do as a guide is to try to help people, whether it be casting, whether it be having guys come from a trout background, want to catch a smallmouth bass, show them those techniques and how to build upon that and just help people out. That's what I enjoy the most. And that's how I, that's one of the reasons I got into guiding.

**Marvin Cash (06:45):**
That's interesting. And so in your part of Pennsylvania, are there a lot of guides? Was it hard to break into the guide game, or how did you do that?

**Brian Shumaker (06:56):**
Again, it goes back to Bob. Bob is the one that really helped my guiding career because it was him and his son, Bobby Jr. Bob had a fly shop in Middletown, and him and Bobby guided on river. And then through Bob, I was able to help run a couple trips with them. Like when they needed three boats, Bob would call me and I'd go down and run with him and Bobby. So, and then it just built upon that. And then at the time, this is back, I started guiding in, I'm thinking 93, 94, somewhere in there. Back then, for fly fishing for smallmouth bass on the Susquehanna, there was only like four or five of us. And that was it. There wasn't a whole lot of us doing it. So it was Bob and Bobby, myself. There was another fellow up on the West Branch and one up on the North Branch, and at that time through the 90s and early 2000s that was pretty much it for fly fishing. Now we had a lot of conventional tackle guides, but as far as the fly fishing goes, there was only about five of us doing it.

**Marvin Cash (08:20):**
Wow. And what's it like today? I'm sure there are a lot more folks out there, right?

**Brian Shumaker (08:25):**
There is, yes, there is. There's a lot more fly guides. You still got about the same amount of conventional tackle guides, but yeah, there's been more fly guides come out of the woodwork. So yeah, it's not as crowded as the trout guiding is, but yeah, it's more crowded than what it used to be, that's for sure.

**Marvin Cash (08:51):**
And how does the state of Pennsylvania regulate guiding? Is it like Montana and Wyoming, or is it not that restricted?

**Brian Shumaker (09:04):**
It's not that restricted. The only thing that Pennsylvania has a guide's license, and there's just a few stipulations. You have to have proof of liability insurance, first aid, CPR. You have to have either a captain's license or a boating safety certificate to get your guide's license, and, of course, there's a fee involved with that as well. And that's pretty much, that's all required to be a guide in Pennsylvania.

**Marvin Cash (09:38):**
Yeah, that kind of seems to me like that falls a little bit in the middle because I know like in North Carolina, you have to have a license, but there's really not a lot of requirements other than having the money. And it's obviously, that's not, it's not quite as strict as what Montana does in terms of outfitters and guides that work for them. But yeah, it's good to know. It sounds like when you book a guide in Pennsylvania that you're going to be safe and you're going to be well insured for sure.

**Brian Shumaker (10:06):**
Right. Absolutely.

**Marvin Cash (10:07):**
And so you've been guiding for a while and you've seen people come and go. You got to spend time with Bob and Bob Jr. What do you think it takes to be a good fishing guide?

**Brian Shumaker (10:21):**
Number one, I think it takes patience. It really does. But you have to be a people person. I was told early on in my career, basically, as guides, we are entertainers. Because you're going to get folks that come with you for the day, okay? Whether you're going to wade them or you're going to be in a boat, but you're going to spend at least eight, ten hours with those folks for the day. So you've got to be a teacher, a coach. If fishing's going slow, you've got to tell them stories, keep them engaged. So when you combine all of that, we are basically entertainers. And you've got to have the personality. You've got to be a people person. And you've got to be willing to teach and help these people succeed. Because there's some folks, they save up for a whole year just to come to spend the fish a day or two with me. So those folks, you got to put yourself in their shoes. This is their big vacation or big expenditure for the year, and you want to give them the best day possible that you can.

**Marvin Cash (11:48):**
Yeah, and I think people sometimes don't realize how physically demanding it is to fish for smallmouth, particularly in the summertime when it's so hot.

**Brian Shumaker (11:57):**
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. One of the hardest things being a guide is to keep the people focused and in the game. Because there's a lot of casting involved when you're fishing for smallmouth bass, especially out of a drift boat, which is what I do for the most part. And you've got to keep them focused and have them paying attention. And you'll go through a slow stretch on a during the day where the fish aren't, might not be as active as they were when you first started. And their minds will start to wander. And about that time, they could miss the fish of a lifetime or a real big smallmouth bass. So you got to keep them, keep talking to them, keep coaching them and keep them in the game and keep them focused. That's one of the hardest parts is to keep the people focused. Like you said, middle of summer, July and August, it's 95 degrees out there. You're sweating, it's hot, it's humid, but you got to have them maintain that focus.

**Marvin Cash (13:16):**
Yeah, as I joke with people, I grew up in Central Virginia and that's where I usually fish for smallmouth. It's definitely not a dry heat in August for sure.

**Brian Shumaker (13:25):**
No, that's for sure. It gets pretty swampy. That's the way it is. Absolutely.

**Marvin Cash (13:33):**
And so one thing that always interests me, because I've been lucky enough to talk to several smallmouth guides on the podcast, is kind of the regional differences in smallmouth fishing. So I'm kind of curious, how are smallies in Pennsylvania different from, say, smallmouth down in Virginia or in the upper Midwest?

**Brian Shumaker (13:50):**
Well, I think, I mean, a smallmouth bass is a smallmouth bass in any moving water, okay? They're going to relate to the structure that's there, okay? So, on my rivers here, and even in Virginia, they're pretty much limestone-based, so you have your ledge systems, your rock outcroppings and stuff like that and the bass here, I'm going to say in the mid-Atlantic region relate to rock structure versus where at least on my rivers I don't have a lot of wood to fish so my bass don't relate to wood as much as like out in the Midwest because I've been fortunate enough. I fished Michigan. I fished Minnesota, some of those places out there where you do have the wood and the bass relate to the wood. But here they don't. But they're going to relate to structure. That's what smallmouth do. They relate to structure. They're a predator and they're an ambush predator. So anything that gives them protection or cover that they can try to hide and then ambush their prey, that's what they're going to relate to, if that makes sense.

**Marvin Cash (15:17):**
Yeah, it does. And so if it's really about the bass relating to the structure, wherever they are, does that mean that sort of the arc of the fishing season is kind of the same across the country? It just starts earlier and later, kind of depending on where you are?

**Brian Shumaker (15:34):**
Yeah, absolutely. Like the further south you would go when you talk like Virginia down through there, that's going to usually because it warms up earlier than, say, here in Pennsylvania. So the season in Virginia is going to start a little earlier than Pennsylvania. Then when you get out into the Midwest and places like that or up into New York, into Maine, they're going to start later than what my season starts because it doesn't warm up as quick up there as it does here in Pennsylvania. The other thing, if we could backtrack a bit about we're talking about the different fisheries in the different parts of the country versus like Virginia, Pennsylvania, out in the Midwest. And so it's interesting to see, like here where I am on the Susquehanna and Juniata, you have Bob Clouser's influence. So a lot of the patterns that you have here were influenced by Bob. When you get down into Virginia, you had Chuck Kraft. So a lot of those patterns were influenced by Chuck. And then you also had Harry Murray. And you had like over on the Shenandoah River and stuff like that, his patterns. You go out in the Midwest, the guys like Mike Schultz, Tim Landwehr, Tim Holschlag, those guys, they all have their own patterns that they develop for their water. So even though a smallmouth bass is a smallmouth bass and moving water, you have those guys that develop patterns all around. And there's a lot of crossover too, but it is kind of interesting when you look at those different geographical regions of the people that influenced it the most.

**Marvin Cash (17:42):**
Yeah, it's interesting because I've been lucky enough to watch a lot of those guys tie and to hear about the tying problems they were trying to solve when they did their fly design, whether it's using foam heads to float because you want to stay out of the timber or inverting the hook by keel weighting the fly or putting more mass in the head of the fly so that you can get it out of timber so it won't kind of dig in, or to your point, like in the mid Atlantic where it's more rock ledges, having those patterns that are really good about working those ledges, like the, I guess, Chuck's claw dad, right, or something like that. Right. So it's interesting to see that problem solving approach that you're talking about.

**Brian Shumaker (18:30):**
Oh, absolutely. It is absolutely. And like I said, I've been fortunate where I've got to fish with a lot of these guys and get to experience their water and see how they fish their patterns. It is, and get their philosophies on why they did what they did and how they fish like they fish. It's very interesting. One thing that I find very interesting is Bob Clouser is my mentor. So, of course, I spend a lot of time fishing with Bob. And Bob's a big proponent of fishing sinking lines. And I was lucky enough to get to know Chuck for a little while and spend some time with him and talk strategy with him. And he fished almost primarily all floating lines. So you had two different philosophies from two very, very good smallmouth guides. And it was just interesting to figure out why they did what they did and so forth like that.

**Marvin Cash (19:55):**
Yeah, that's really interesting too, because then that translates into fly design and technique. And yeah, it's interesting to see how people try to solve those problems on the water.

**Brian Shumaker (20:06):**
Absolutely. Absolutely.

**Marvin Cash (20:08):**
And so I'm assuming you probably start pre-spawn fishing probably like April, something like that?

**Brian Shumaker (20:16):**
Usually end of March on a normal year. But unfortunately, this year has not been normal because the last two weeks we've had frost. And this is going on late April. And matter of fact, they're calling for frost this evening. So, yeah, but usually by end of March, beginning of April is when we start our pre-spawn.

**Marvin Cash (20:47):**
Got it. And so let's maybe walk through the season. So you start there, how are the smallmouth behaving and how does that translate into techniques to get them in the boat?

**Brian Shumaker (21:00):**
Well, what happens is when water starts warming up and gets into the mid-40s, I'll say, is when the fish are really going to start coming out of the wintering holes and start moving. So as the water starts warming up and getting up close to 50 degrees, these fish are hungry. They haven't eaten much all winter, and they know they're going to have to spawn. So they're coming out of the wintering holes. The water's still relatively cold, but they're going to eat. So what you're going to find, I find on my waters, is you want to look for back eddies, something with slow current, because as they're traveling along, they don't seem to have the stamina yet to fight current. So they're going to be in groups, and they're going to be in the slower slack of water off of the main current, if that makes sense.

**Marvin Cash (22:08):**
Yeah, it does. It's almost like fishing for trout when it's really cold. They kind of bunch up in that slower water. So from a technique perspective, does that mean that you're basically going to fish close to the bottom, probably slow, and try to, I guess, I'm assuming that they won't chase because the water's too cold at that point. So you're trying to kind of be a little bit more pinpoint in how you approach the fish?

**Brian Shumaker (22:34):**
Absolutely. It's going to be primarily, I'll fish a sinking line. And depending on the flow, it's either going to be a type three full sinking line, or if we have a normal flow or a little bit lower flow, I'll fish a full intermediate. But everything is going to be, at this time of year, going to be low and slow. And a lot of times when you're fishing, say you're fishing a Game Changer or another type of streamer, a lot of times if you give it the pause and let that fly start to sink a little bit and then just give it a little pull, a lot of times that's when you'll get the fish to eat. So it's sort of low and slow in the early part of the pre-spawn when the waters are still cold.

**Marvin Cash (23:29):**
Got it. And so we kind of move on from there. So we start to move into April and how do things change as the water starts to warm up and we get closer to the spawn?

**Brian Shumaker (23:42):**
They're going to become more active. They'll start to chase as the water temperatures rise because these are cold-blooded fish. So as the water temperature starts to rise and the water warms up, they become more active. So then you can speed up your retrieves, and the fish will actually chase. And once the water temperature hits around 60 degrees, you can get them to eat topwater. So they will come up and take a topwater bug, so that gives you another option, especially if you got a real nice warm sunny day, they'll come up and you can get them on topwater.

**Marvin Cash (24:34):**
Is that sort of a gradual progression too? So you were going low and slow first thing in the season but as obviously if they're going to end up chasing stuff on top are they also chasing more active presentations higher in the water column?

**Brian Shumaker (24:46):**
Yes. Yep, absolutely. So you don't have to go, unless you got high flows you really wouldn't have to go to a type 3 sinking line, then you could go with your intermediates and a little bit faster retrieve because they're going to be more active so yes they are going to eat higher up in the water column. And then again you can try, you can get them on topwater. Of course you use a floating line then and a popping bug or something like that, and you can get them to come up and eat. So your retrieves will be a little bit faster, a little bit higher in the water column as they progress into the spawn.

**Marvin Cash (25:33):**
Got it. So they kind of come out on the other side, right? So it's full and warm. How long does it take before you get into kind of, I guess, what people would think of as that traditional summer smallmouth bite?

**Brian Shumaker (25:46):**
That traditional summer smallmouth bite. So for us here, our fish usually spawn in April and May because not all the smallmouth spawn at the same time. They sort of spawn in waves. So you're going to have fish spawning. You're going to have pre-spawn fish. You're going to have some fish spawning. And then you're going to have post-spawn fish. So our spawn is April, May. And you get that post-spawn funk about the first two weeks or so of June, depending on how the spring progressed. And then by the time, end of June, beginning of July, that's our summer pattern is when it really starts then. And then by then, all your fish are spread out in the river system. They're more active. They're chasing bait. They're eating insects. So you can do a combination. You got popper fishing as well as streamer fishing.

**Marvin Cash (26:58):**
Yeah, and I guess that's going to hold right until you get a few really hard frosts to kind of start to get people to kind of back off, what, in probably like early October, something like that?

**Brian Shumaker (27:08):**
Usually for us, it's usually around mid-October, mid to late October. Depends on when them first heavy cold fronts start coming through. And unfortunately, or fortunately, however you want to look at it is, the way the weather pattern's been, the last, I don't know, five or so years. I mean, we've had some, I'll call it falls, that we've actually fished into December and we're catching smallmouth on the fly because we still have water temperatures around 50 degrees or in the 50s. But on a normal year, usually mid to late October for us is when they're going to start slowing down because the water is going to start cooling off again.

**Marvin Cash (27:59):**
And so it's kind of, I assume it's sort of like watching a ball bounce, right? You started on the bottom, you came up to the top. And I assume, as you fish, as the fish start to slow down and things cool off, you're going to start moving back down the water column and back to kind of the winter structure. Is that right?

**Brian Shumaker (28:18):**
Absolutely. Absolutely. As the water cools off, they're going to start, they're going to start moving again. They're going to start grouping up again, because they're going to start moving towards the wintering holes. So yeah, you'll start as the water starts cooling off, you're going to get deeper and your presentations are going to get slower for sure.

**Marvin Cash (28:42):**
And obviously the weather's been nutty the last few years, but when do you kind of normally kind of hang it up and go chase something else either on the fly or maybe go deer hunting?

**Brian Shumaker (28:53):**
I mean, I'll be honest with you, I'll still be out there fishing as long as the water temperatures are still about 45 degrees because you can still catch smallmouth on the fly. The coldest I've caught them is 42 degrees. So but it's, it's not for everybody because you're using full sinking lines, you're using weighted streamers and it's real slow retrieves. But I actually stopped guiding the end of October. I do have some clients that'll come out and do that, but that's not for everybody. Because a lot of guys, they want to cast, they want to strip, they want to cast, they want to strip, and that's not the game you're playing when that water temperature gets down in the 40s.

**Marvin Cash (29:53):**
Yeah, and it's a lot of work casting big streamers on sinking lines, and obviously the game, right, is to cover as much water as possible. And so you may not be sweating like it's August, but you'll get tired just the same, right?

**Brian Shumaker (30:08):**
Oh absolutely. Especially when you're throwing those sinking lines like that and bigger streamers, you better believe it, it's a workout. Absolutely, it's a workout.

**Marvin Cash (30:20):**
And so for folks that don't know, you guide on the Susquehanna and the Juniata. Can you tell us a little bit about those two fisheries and kind of how they're alike and how they're different?

**Brian Shumaker (30:30):**
Well, the biggest difference, yeah, the biggest difference is the Susquehanna is big water. The area that I guide in is three-quarters of a mile wide, where the Juniata is not even a quarter mile wide. So it's definitely size difference between both rivers. But again, they're both limestone rivers, so you still have the same types of structure on each river except the Juniata is more, can would be more condensed or more intimate than the Susquehanna because a lot of folks when they come to the Susquehanna and they've tried fishing it on their own, they're intimidated by the size. They're thinking oh my god where do I go, where do I start. Where the Juniata, it's easier to break it down and figure out how to fish it. Where the Susquehanna, depending if you're in a boat or if you're wading, you got to break it down into sections and fish like a, do an imaginary square and fish that thoroughly and then move on and then do the same thing again. But yeah, I mean, it's just size is the biggest difference. Then the other thing is Susquehanna has midriver islands, midriver grass beds, where most of the grass, there's really not a whole lot of islands in the Juniata. There's a few, but not like Susquehanna. And most of the grass that you're going to find in the Juniata are going to be on the edges and not mid-river like it is on the Susquehanna.

**Marvin Cash (32:23):**
Got it. And in terms of access for anglers, is there a good mix of wade and float access? Or if the Susquehanna is bigger, do you really need to have a boat?

**Brian Shumaker (32:36):**
Well, there's a lot of good wading access on the Susquehanna. More so than the Juniata, because what happens with the Juniata is, I mean, the Fish Commission did a very good job. There's plenty of boat ramps that you could go in at to wade. You'll find a lot of cabins and so forth up along the Juniata, and not so much on the Susquehanna. So the Juniata has a lot more private property that it's hard to just pull off and get down to the river unless you go to a boat ramp. The Susquehanna is a little bit more spread out. You have a little bit better opportunities for wade fishing there than you do on the Juniata. The other problem you have on both rivers is on one side is bordered by a railroad and the other side is bordered by a highway. So, but as long as you go to like a boat ramp, you can access both rivers from a boat ramp and go from there.

**Marvin Cash (33:51):**
Got it. And just to help our listeners out, what are Pennsylvania's rules around, you're mentioning, you legally access the water. If you're floating the Juniata and you legally get in at a boat ramp, what are the rules for your ability to anchor up or to get out and wade and fish?

**Brian Shumaker (34:08):**
Oh, I mean, you can go for it. It's all public water. So, you put in, you put in a boat ramp, you can go up down that river, you can anchor, you can get out and wade. You just can't really. And the railroad, they, I forget how many years ago this started. It became a problem. When I was growing up, it was never an issue to cross the railroad tracks and get down to the river. But I forget how many years ago it was. There was a group of kids down in the southern part of the river, put a rope swing up, like kids do, swinging off, dropping into the river, swimming and carrying on. One of the kids got seriously injured. Parents turned around, sued the railroad. So then the railroad decided to put no trespassing signs up the whole length of the railroad. And if they catch you crossing the railroad tracks legally they can fine you for trespassing. So that caused a big problem. So I guess what I was driving at is if you get out the wade and you're on the railroad side they're really not going to say much as long as you don't go up and go across the tracks. But as long as you're in the river, I don't think they'll have a problem with it.

**Marvin Cash (35:51):**
Got it. And I always kind of think when I think of the Susquehanna I think about all of the problems the smallmouth population had, I guess, what in the mid-2000s. How are the Susquehanna and the Juniata fishing today?

**Brian Shumaker (36:02):**
Well, they're fishing a lot better than when we had the crash, that's for sure. The population rebounded very, very well. And it's, but we had the crash in 2005 and about 2011 it started making the turn for the positive and it's been fishing very, very well. And except now what we seem to be running into is we're still always going to have pollution issues. Unfortunately, a lot of it's all political. The other issue that we're finding now that's happening is we have a flathead catfish problem. They're starting to, their population has really exploded. Flathead catfish are not bottom feeders like channel cats, they eat live fish. So they're starting to put a little hurting on the population. They're putting a hurting on the crayfish population. So the fishing's still very, very good, it's just something's got to be done to try to get this to balance out. But yeah, both rivers from what they were in the mid-2000s to today are excellent, excellent. Unfortunately, I got to live through I guess you would call it some of the hey days from the, well, 80s, 90s and early 2000s. I mean, there's plus and minuses of that. We used to be able to go out and catch 100 fish a day or more, but they were 10 inches, 12 inch fish. Very rarely did we get the 18 plus inch fish. So I don't, we'll never see, I'll experience growing up again. But what we have now which is good is we still have numbers, not as high numbers, but we also have the possibility of every day going on either river that you could catch a four pound plus smallmouth bass. So we have an excellent trophy fishery as well as we still have a numbers too. But it's just not what it was early 2000s, 90s and 80s.

**Marvin Cash (39:02):**
Yeah, and it's interesting, for our listeners that don't know, flathead catfish are like fish vacuum cleaners. They cause a lot of problems for a lot of fisheries for either eating, over consuming forage or actually eating the target species right.

**Brian Shumaker (39:43):**
Exactly, yeah. I mean, they can really put the wood to a fishery. And in terms of pollution, is it still predominantly agricultural and kind of like residential fertilizer runoff? Is that the big problem right now in the Susquehanna and the Juniata that is kind of the thing that everybody kind of needs to watch to make sure that everything stays on track?

Well, you have agriculture. You've got lawn fertilizer. And one of the biggest problems, too, that we have are the antiquated wastewater treatment facilities that we have up and down both rivers. The wastewater treatment facilities today are not equipped to filter out pharmaceuticals. So that is another big issue that you have because when the waste comes in and the pharmaceuticals hit the wastewater treatment plant, they basically just keep on going because they can't filter them out yet. So you've got agriculture, fertilizer and pharmaceuticals. That's the three main right there.

**Marvin Cash (40:38):**
Right. And I guess all the fertilizer and agricultural waste, I guess, drives up the nitrogen in the water. And then you have these kind of algae blooms and then that takes the oxygen out and kills the fish that way, right?

**Brian Shumaker (40:52):**
Absolutely. Yep. It depletes the oxygen when you get these algae blooms, especially you get a real dry summer, you get low hot water, and then there's algae blooms just explode. And then it takes the dissolved oxygen out of the water. And then it eventually will kill a fish.

**Marvin Cash (41:13):**
Yeah. In my understanding on the pharmaceutical issues, it's everything from it causes lesions on the bass to makes them sterile. I think I've read articles about how literally smallmouth bass have changed from male to female or female to male based upon some of the pharmaceuticals that are making their way out of the wastewater treatment process.

**Brian Shumaker (41:36):**
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean it's unfortunate because I think we all take some sort of medication, whether it's prescription or over-the-counter stuff, everybody takes something. So when you go to the bathroom and then you flush the toilet, it all gets washed in to the wastewater system and like I said they can't filter, they don't have the abilities there. It's just the municipalities have got to spend the money to upgrade to be able to do that and that is part of the political process that it's hard to address because politicians don't want to raise taxes, and the population doesn't want to pay more in taxes. But I honestly feel, without getting on my soapbox, that if the public was made aware that a lot of their drinking water comes from these rivers that we love to fish, that aren't that clean, I think enough pressure could be put to make these changes. But until you get the general population to realize that, it's just going to be status quo that we've been fighting forever.

**Marvin Cash (43:14):**
Yeah, that's a really good point, and I'll help you not get on your soapbox by asking you to share your favorite patterns for smallmouth and how you like to fish them.

**Brian Shumaker (43:26):**
Well, some of my favorite patterns, I mean, we can start with poppers. I'm a big fan of, can I name brands? You can do whatever you want to do. Okay. One of my favorites are going to be Boogle Bug poppers. I'm a big fan of Chuck Kraft's popping bugs. Of course, you're going to use a floating line, 9-foot leader. The key is, I get clients, I put a popper on for them. They make a cast and they want to just rip it back across there and splash, splash, splash water across, and sometimes yes you will catch a fish that way but for the most part I like to make the cast, you let that bug hit the water, you let the rings disappear, let it drift a little bit and just give it little short twitches just enough to make those rubber legs just wiggle a little bit and then just let it basically dead drift, a little twitch, dead drift, a little twitch. When you want to drop down into the water column, flies like smaller Game Changers, definitely Clouser Minnows. There's other flies like a Murdich Minnow, even a Lefty's Deceiver. Those, for the most part, I'm going to fish on an intermediate line. A short leader, when I say short, it's not a tapered leader. It's just four to five feet of straight tippet material, no less than 10-pound test. And the key with fishing streamers like that is you need to make the fly come alive. So it's just not making your cast and just steady strips. You've got to strip, strip, and a little pause, let that fly dive down, strip, strip. So you've got to animate your fly. You've got to make it look alive. And that's how I like to fish streamers. If we get higher flows, I'll go to a sinking line, like a type 3 sinking line, just to get down a little bit to fight the current. But for the most part, my summer fishing, I'm going to have, for the guys in the boat, I got a floater rigged up and I got an intermediate for him. That's my two primary lines right there.

**Marvin Cash (46:16):**
Gotcha. And just to back up on the topwater bugs, do you like to fish sliders at all?

**Brian Shumaker (46:22):**
Absolutely. Absolutely. There'll be times, especially when we get low, clear water. I really like a slider then, because you can get, you can pull on that and give that a little bit of dive and then pops back up just like a minnow coming up to the surface. So I definitely do like sliders as well.

**Marvin Cash (46:47):**
Got it. And what do you like when you're dredging?

**Brian Shumaker (46:51):**
When I'm dredging on the bottom, you can't beat a Claw Dad or a Critter Mite. One's going to be a crayfish, which is the Claw Dad, and the Critter Mite is a helgramite, and just have them coming down across the ledges. Again, you can fish them on a floating line, especially the Claw Dad, because you'll keep it up a little bit off the bottom and it'll look like a fleeing crayfish. Your Critter Mite, get it on an intermediate, and you can get it down to the rocks just like a helgramite would. Another, if we jump back to the poppers, though, one of our, and I know you talked about, you wanted to talk about insect hatches. So one of our bigger insect hatches, and I may be jumping the gun here how you wanted to go, but are the blue damsels that we have up here. So our blue damsels start coming off early July, and they'll come off right into early September. And usually about 10:30, 11 o'clock, they'll start popping. And a lot of times you can look downriver and you can actually see fish jumping out of the water for a blue damsel. So there I like to fish a bug or a popper, Carolina blue or a blue type of popper to mimic the blue damsels. And again, you don't want to rip them across the water, dead drift them and twitch them and become very effective.

**Marvin Cash (48:43):**
Yeah, and a whole lot easier to cast than some of those more realistic looking dragonfly or damsel imitations for sure.

**Brian Shumaker (48:51):**
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

**Marvin Cash (48:54):**
And do you guys have cicadas up in Pennsylvania like they do down in Virginia?

**Brian Shumaker (48:59):**
We do have cicadas. Not, our fish don't really key in unless we have the 17-year cicadas where they're dropping everywhere. Our fish don't really, on what we call the dog-based cicadas that you have all summer long, our fish don't really seem to key in on those. But yeah, we do have cicadas. And while we're on insects, it's kind of interesting on both the Susquehanna and the Juniata, because they're limestone-based rivers, we have pretty much a lot of the same insect hatches that we do on our trout streams. So we get caddis, we get Slate Drakes, we get Brown Drakes, we actually get Blue-Winged Olives, we actually get sulfurs. And the bass will come up and eat insects. They won't make a steady diet of them, but they do come up and eat insects. Their diet's going to consist most of minnows and crayfish, but they will eat insects. One of our biggest hatches that we have are the White Flies that come off in my area usually about the third or fourth week July and go into early August and you can catch a good size smallmouth bass on like a size 12 White Wulff if you want to catch them on a dry fly. But the problem with that is when that hatch comes off it's pretty heavy at times so if you throw an exact imitation like a White Wulff out there, it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. So I always try to give them something different, white popper, white floating minnow or something like that, something you can kind of skitter across the top. It seems to get the bass's attention more than just fishing a dry fly amongst a million other natural insects on the water. So yeah, absolutely.

**Marvin Cash (51:42):**
Not to mention if you can't see it, it's hard to set the hook.

**Brian Shumaker (51:53):**
Absolutely. So you also designed a pattern called the Shimmering Minnow which is, I guess to describe it for the listeners, it's an articulated streamer. What kind of fishing problem were you trying to solve when you designed the Shimmering Minnow?

I was trying to solve what I was trying to do was come up with something that would give me a wounded bait fish in the upper part of the water column in the one to two foot range is what I was trying to solve with that. And that's about the time when these shanks were first coming out and I put a shank on the back of a hook and played with some different material and stuff. And that's pretty much how the idea came about. So I wanted something, a wounded minnow and a one to two foot water column is what I was trying to solve with that.

**Marvin Cash (52:44):**
And how long did it take you to get the pattern the way you wanted it to be? And how did you know you had arrived?

**Brian Shumaker (52:52):**
It took me probably about two years until I got it to where I was satisfied with it. And it's just, the neat thing with that fly is, and I don't know, I guess because of the motion and the material that I use to tie the body reflects the way it reflects the light in clear water, I mean it's like, it's like candy to those bass. It's just unbelievable that you can actually, you'll be able to see the fish just come out from a ledge or something and just come out and crush it. So it is pretty cool. The only drawback that I haven't figured out yet with that fly is it doesn't perform well in dirty water, but I'm still working on it. But if you have clear water, smallmouth bass, I go nuts for it.

**Marvin Cash (53:58):**
Well, we'll have to have you back on when you solve the dirty water problem and you can tell us how you did it.

**Brian Shumaker (54:16):**
Absolutely. Absolutely. So I think we've touched, we've touched on flies and leaders and lines. What rods do you like to fish for smallmouth in terms of I guess weight, length and action?

I'm pretty much, to have the guys throw 7-weights. I prefer to fish a 7-weight. I'm fishing I guess you would call it a fast, moderate fast action rod. 9-foot rods for the most part. I have played with some of the shorter that were bass specific rods and I like them for throwing topwater, not so much for fishing streamers. But pretty much I don't think you can go wrong with a 9-foot 7-weight rod.

**Marvin Cash (55:00):**
Got it. Yeah, no, good advice. Yeah. And it's also too, I imagine, to you, as you were saying, the shorter rods are maybe good for topwater, but that lever is so much shorter. I mean, if you're throwing sinking lines, that would be kind of tough on a short stick.

**Brian Shumaker (55:14):**
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But they are fun to fish topwater with. I will admit that. I do enjoy that with them.

**Marvin Cash (55:24):**
And so when you get guys in your boat, what's the most common mistake you see folks make when they're fishing for smallmouth?

**Brian Shumaker (55:33):**
Is not being able to cast. And cause I get a lot of folks from a trout background and they're not used to making 50, 60 foot cast. That has got to be the biggest mistake that I see is not being able to cast because the further away from the boat, you can get your fly. You are able to present your fly to a much bigger audience and cover more water by being able to throw 50, 60 foot cast versus a 20 foot cast. So that's probably one of the biggest things is the casting.

**Marvin Cash (56:26):**
Is it kind of the fundamentals of being able to cast for distance, or is it that people come to you that are mostly trout fishermen and they're not used to fishing really wind-resistant bugs and kind of understanding what that takes?

**Brian Shumaker (56:40):**
Well, it's not knowing how to throw wind-resistant bugs, but they're not used to the heavier equipment either. Because most guys are fishing anywhere from trout fishing. Majority are fishing 3, 4 or 5-weight. And now you give them what feels like a pool cue and you want them to be able to cast a fly that's probably four inches, three and a half, four inch long streamer, or even a big popper. And it's just the whole system from a heavier rod, a heavier line, a bigger fly. It's just the whole mechanics that they're not used to being able to do that.

**Marvin Cash (57:31):**
And I guess the short answer, right, is you probably should buy a 7-weight and practice in the yard a lot before you come out. Because I don't know how you, you can be a good caster, but if you cast a 4-weight rod, just the fatigue of casting a 7-weight all day long is going to take its toll on you.

**Brian Shumaker (57:48):**
Oh, my, absolutely. I mean, the best advice I can give somebody, especially if they're a beginner and haven't done much fly fishing, I tell them straight up. I said, look, go to your local fly shop, take a fly casting lesson, and then book a day with me. Because once you get the basics down, then I can build upon that to help you become a better caster. But what happens with me, because I operate a drift boat, it's hard for me to run the boat, put you in position and give you a casting lesson all at the same time as we're floating down the river. But if you take a casting lesson and you get the basics, then I can build upon those and help you to become a better caster.

**Marvin Cash (58:53):**
Yeah, I always tell people to take a little bit of the rod money away and spend it on some lessons when they're starting out.

**Brian Shumaker (59:00):**
Absolutely. Absolutely.

**Marvin Cash (59:02):**
Makes life a whole lot better because if you can't deliver the fly, it's a pretty frustrating sport, as you were mentioning early on when you were feeding the hemlocks.

**Brian Shumaker (59:11):**
Oh, my. Yeah, absolutely. And that's another thing, too, Marvin, is if I get folks that come from a conventional background that have just started fly fishing. I have those folks bring a spinning rod with them and bring their fly rod, bring a spinning rod. The last thing that I want them to do is to get frustrated. So we're fly fishing, and if I see they're starting to get frustrated, I'm going to have them say, hey, let's put the fly rod down, take a little break, pick your spinning rod up, fish that for a little bit, and then we'll come back to the fly rod. Because once they get frustrated, then you lose them and you lost them for the day. So I have them bring both and then go back and forth. And it seems to work out fairly well.

**Marvin Cash (01:00:12):**
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so why don't you tell us a little bit more about Susquehanna River Guides, kind of what you do, kind of what your routine is?

**Brian Shumaker (01:00:22):**
Well, I mean, most of my trips are run out of a drift boat. I have a high, low profile drift boat. And so if you need casting help, I'm there for you. If you want to learn a technique, I'm there for you. I want you to walk away at the end of the day having a great experience and felt like you learned something and that I tried to help you to become a better angler. I mean, that's what I'm here for. It's to help you get better, to help you catch fish, that you'll be able to leave my boat and be able to do it on your own.

**Marvin Cash (01:01:11):**
Yeah, and I noticed one of the neat things that you do is you do full days and half days, but you also have a special deal for folks who will come and fish with you for two days in a row.

**Brian Shumaker (01:01:21):**
Absolutely. Absolutely. I do two rivers, two days. So you come, you book the two rivers, two days package. And what that does is we'll fish one day on the Susquehanna, one day on the Juniata River. And it gives you a taste of big water and more intimate water. Still fishing for smallmouth bass, of course. Still the same types of structure and so forth like that. But you get a day on two different river systems, so it's gone over real well and a lot of people like that, to be able to fish two different rivers for two days. So it's done real well.

**Marvin Cash (01:02:11):**
Yeah, and I always tell people too if you can swing it to fish with a guide for two or three days in a row because if you pick one day you may not have great weather, front comes through. And you kind of also I imagine gives you the flexibility of picking which river you want to fish which day too.

**Brian Shumaker (01:02:20):**
Oh absolutely, it does. And that's great advice too because like you say you never know, you could have a weather day and the fish could be off and the next day somebody turned a switch on and it's like gangbusters. The old saying is well you should have been here yesterday. So it, that's great that people can do that if they have the flexibility to be able to come for two days or three days, however.

**Marvin Cash (01:03:00):**
Absolutely. And I always ask all of my guide guests to share what they think the biggest misconception folks have about the life of a fishing guide.

**Brian Shumaker (01:03:05):**
Oh, I think the biggest misconception is people think that I get paid to go fish every day. And the truth is, I'll be lucky if I get one day a week that I get to go fish. Everybody says, oh man, I want to be a guide. I'd be able to go fish every day. No, you don't. That's one of the, I think, biggest pet peeves that I have and I hope this don't ruffle too many feathers but I'm gonna say it anyhow. Most of the spin fishing guides we have here, they fish with the client. So they have their jet boats and there's two clients and the guide. The guide's in the front of the boat, a client's in the middle of the boat, a client's in the back of the boat and the guide is fishing right along with their client. And that's not, in my opinion, that's not right. They don't, you're not booking me to see me fish. You're booking me to teach you how to catch these fish and help you become a better angler. You're not paying to see me fish and that just rubs me the wrong way with the way the conventional guys do it. But that's the difference between them and us.

**Marvin Cash (01:04:39):**
So yeah, it's funny you say, I was doing an interview earlier today and I was, we were discussing it and I said, I think the only people that actually fish less than fishing guides are people that own fly shops.

**Brian Shumaker (01:04:48):**
Well, that's a true story too.

**Marvin Cash (01:04:51):**
So before I let you, let you hop tonight, Brian, why don't you let folks know where they can find you so they can learn more about your guide service. And when things get unlocked in Pennsylvania for guiding, they can book you and fish with you.

**Brian Shumaker (01:05:05):**
Absolutely. You can get a hold of me. I have a website. It's www.susqriverguides.com. You can call my phone number 717-574-5338. Also on Instagram at s-u-s-q-g-u-i-d-e. And also on Facebook, Susquehanna River Guide. Also, once we get through all this, we're still booking trips. So you want to book a trip for later on this summer, we still have days available. So you can get a hold of me.

**Marvin Cash (01:05:53):**
Well, there you go. And I'll drop all that stuff in the show notes, Brian. And I really appreciate you spending some time with me this evening.

**Brian Shumaker (01:06:00):**
Oh, I appreciate it. Thank you for having me on, Marvin.

**Marvin Cash (01:06:03):**
Oh, it's been a blast. Thanks so much.

**Brian Shumaker (01:06:06):**
All right. You take care.

**Marvin Cash (01:06:07):**
You too. Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you enjoyed the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on the podcatcher of your choice and tell a friend. And again, a shout out to this episode's sponsor. Check out our friends at Nor-vise at www.nor-vise.com. Stay safe, everybody. Tight lines.