S4, Ep 53: Blake Jackson of Ugly Bug Fly Shop

Marvin Cash (00:04): Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. On this episode, I'm joined by Blake Jackson, co-owner of Ugly Bug Fly Shop and Crazy Rainbow Fly Fishing. Blake shares his fly fishing journey, and we take a deep dive into the great fly fishing opportunities in central Wyoming. I think you're really going to enjoy this one.

But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out. And as we continue to create and distribute more diverse content, you may want to consider downloading our iOS or Android app. We organize our content by category so you can go straight to the content that interests you the most. The apps are free and the links are in the show notes. Alternatively, just search The Articulate Fly where you get your mobile apps. Now on to the interview.

Well, Blake, welcome to The Articulate Fly.

Blake Jackson (00:58): Yeah, I appreciate you having me.

Marvin Cash (01:00): Well, I'm looking forward to our conversation, and we have a tradition on The Articulate Fly. We ask our guests to always share their earliest fishing memory.

Blake Jackson (01:10): Boy, like most fish heads, I've got a few, but probably my earliest would be just a fun day on my little home creek I grew up on here in central Wyoming with dad and grandpa and uncles. I managed to land the big fish that day and thought I was pretty hot stuff for it, teasing all my uncles.

Just a memorable thing - it's like the first time I can remember outfishing these people that I thought were elite fishermen. So that one really sticks with me. I was pretty young.

Marvin Cash (01:50): Very neat. And when did you get drawn to the dark side of fly fishing?

Blake Jackson (01:55): I dabbled with it when I was extremely young, probably too young that family tried to get me into it, but made the full-time conversion around the age of 12.

Marvin Cash (02:05): Got it. And obviously now you're a guide and you co-own a fly shop. Who are some of the folks that mentored you on your fly fishing journey and what did they teach you?

Blake Jackson (02:16): Boy, that one's a tough question to ask. I think, like most anglers that are out there, I don't know that education or mentorship really ever ends. I'm continuously learning, obviously, from very skilled anglers, but also learning from often beginners. I'll see them catch fish in spots but I just would assume fish don't live. Try to learn a little bit from that.

But major influences - a good buddy of mine, Denny Saunders, was kind of the first one to get me into rowing a boat pretty seriously. And then my first boss in the industry, Josh Stanish at Montana Troutfitters, and Dave Kumline in Bozeman, Montana. Obviously kind of played a really big part in what I do for a living now and my passion for it.

And then my current partner, Brian Martin - his enthusiasm for the educational side of things and the philanthropy as far as expanding the business, but also giving back to the community is a big part of his mission and therefore has become a big part of mine.

Marvin Cash (03:30): Very neat. When did you get the guide bug?

Blake Jackson (03:34): I had it early on. I started becoming more and more successful as I worked my way through college. I was a track and field athlete, which went hand in hand with kind of an extended school year. So it was difficult for me to find summer employment in a college town like Bozeman. I wanted to stick around up there and keep training.

Guiding kind of allowed some freedoms to still attend some summer track meets and that sort of thing, but also do something I loved and make a little money in the summer months. Somewhat because of passion, but somewhat because of the necessity of needing a summer job and struggling to find that in a college town. Everyone else had been out of school for a month already, and a lot of those college jobs were already taken.

Marvin Cash (04:30): Yeah, very neat. My youngest son runs track. What were your events?

Blake Jackson (04:35): I was a thrower. I threw all the heavy stuff. I joke quite often and tell people I was a steeplechaser, but at 6'4" and close to 300 pounds, it's not real likely. So the shot put was my big event, but threw the shot, discus and hammer - all the big heavy stuff.

Marvin Cash (04:51): Very neat. And yeah, it's interesting to see. My son's only 13, but he's almost 6 feet tall. So we're kind of curious to see how that's going to work out for him.

Blake Jackson (05:01): Sounds like he might be suited for the discus or shot put as well.

Marvin Cash (05:03): Yeah, he's going to be in the weight room this summer. He wants to play football in high school. So that's going to be - we'll see how he bulks up.

Blake Jackson (05:03): Good for him.

Marvin Cash (05:03): Yeah. And so you graduate from college and did you go straight into guiding or did you do something and kind of come back to guiding?

Blake Jackson (05:21): No, kind of like everyone wasn't quite sure when you get out of college and think about what you really want to do. And I wasn't truly - hadn't really made up my mind there. So I kind of tried to make it go of a pro career for a short period of time. And then still guided and went into teaching for a year and decided in a school system education setting really wasn't for me. And then came back to guiding full time. So yeah, kind of not necessarily full circle, but definitely a zigzag.

Marvin Cash (05:58): Yeah, very neat. Who did you start guiding for in Bozeman?

Blake Jackson (06:03): For Dave Comline and Josh Danish there at Montana Troutfitters was the primary one. I guided for Jason Fleury and a few other random people, the River's Edge and all the little rivers, between the River's Edge and Troutfitters. And then there were a fair number of shops in the Bozeman area. So I kind of made the rounds as an independent guide, but then stuck on full time with Troutfitters.

Marvin Cash (06:32): Yeah, got it. Where were your favorite rivers to guide?

Blake Jackson (06:36): Boy, I think one of the beauties of a place like Bozeman is just the variety. I really love guiding the Yellowstone and the Upper Yellowstone, Lower Yellowstone, as well below Livingston. Did a bunch of days on the Missouri, but on the Madison also. But if I kind of had to pick one, I would say the Upper Yellowstone was - still has a very fond spot and lots of great memories up there and really enjoy the dry fly fishing cutthroat activity that takes place up there.

Marvin Cash (07:10): Yeah, I was just going to say, I floated through Yankee Jim Canyon a few times and made it through that rapid to have some great cutthroat fishing.

Blake Jackson (07:17): Yeah, it sure does. That pocket water is kind of fun. And being a Wyoming kid, I'm just not used to fishing that sort of, or at that point wasn't really used to fishing that kind of water. Our rivers here are a little more meandering and at times kind of slower. So pitching big foam bugs to the banks was a real treat.

Marvin Cash (07:39): Yeah, I can still remember the guy I fished with telling me that I needed to count to a couple thousand before I set the hook or I was going to not get them.

Blake Jackson (07:48): Yeah, that's definitely easier said than done sometimes. When you wait and you watch a good-sized fish eat slow like that, you want to be quick on the reaction when you definitely need to be the opposite - kind of slow and smooth.

Marvin Cash (08:04): Yeah, absolutely. And Blake, what are your thoughts on the secrets to being a good guide?

Blake Jackson (08:10): Boy, there's a few of them. I think the first kind of secret to all of it is being a people person and reading people. There's obviously a full array of clientele - everyone from the folks that are pretty serious about it and want to fish hardcore to a lot of folks that want to have a great day, a relaxing day on the water. So just reading people and kind of figuring out what the goal really is for that day.

And the more I've got into it, at this point, I'm just kind of fishing with returners and not necessarily taking new clients on. But I definitely learned through the course of my guiding career to just be a little more up front. And I just ask them straight out of the gate, like, what would be the perfect scenario? What's the goal of today? Is it just pure numbers and catch fish? Is the goal to become a better angler so you can go out and do this on your own? Or is the plan just to kind of do a couple of guided trips a year and this is your time away?

And I think it kind of opens those lines of communication and puts things at ease a little bit. And it kind of allows us to tailor a trip specific for that clientele instead of kind of giving them a generic or cookie-cutter sort of guided trip experience. We can really kind of customize it accordingly.

Marvin Cash (09:42): Yeah, it's always amazing to me how reluctant clients are to tell their guides what they want to get out of their day.

Blake Jackson (09:50): Yeah, I mean, we really try hard here in the shop when we're taking trips for the other guys that work in the operation, including myself, to really kind of vet that experience or funnel that experience into what are you looking for out of it? And it's our job. And to me, I always tell people, like, it's your money. Don't hold back on the sense that the goal is to bring your grandchild out and it's all about the grandkid. Like, give us a heads up prior. That's - it puts us that much further ahead of the game.

And often we can provide a much better experience by going to a specific stretch of water or customizing the trip in a way that increases everyone's opportunity and enjoyment in the day sort of thing.

Marvin Cash (10:50): Yeah, absolutely. And I always like to ask all the folks that I have on the show that are guides what they think the biggest misconception is that folks have about the life of a fishing guide.

Blake Jackson (11:02): I think the easiest, most common one is people just - they're like, "Man, that's an awesome job. You get to go fishing every day" or "You get to fish every day." And there is an avenue to that. I definitely say if you've got to have an office, a drift boat to me is about as good as it gets. But generally the guide's not the one holding the rod.

They definitely get some satisfaction and enjoyment out of helping the customer succeed, but it's not them going out and fun fishing every day. It's them battling the wind. There's a lot of moving parts to make a successful guide trip out of a day. So there's many things to balance and kind of multitask. And at times it can be surprisingly stressful. So it is a real job.

Marvin Cash (11:59): Yeah, I think, too. I mean, it's also - I think folks kind of forget, particularly if you're like in Montana or Wyoming, your season's probably a little bit longer than the Montana season. But you don't have a lot of days to fish. And you may only have two or three days off in an entire summer season.

Blake Jackson (12:17): Yeah, we're very fortunate here in a pretty extended season. We really kind of get going in March and run pretty aggressively through Thanksgiving. But all the same, it's still a limited window. And a lot of my guides shoot for that 150 to 180 days a year sort of mark. And we kind of refer to it much like a teaching position at your local middle school or high school where they're going to work 170 days a year.

A guiding job is kind of that in reverse - opposite seasons of what a teacher would really work. But it's mentally taxing, but obviously very physically taxing at times. So between battling the elements and multitasking all the odds and ends that take place in a day, it can definitely wear you out.

Marvin Cash (13:16): Yeah, absolutely. And tell me a little bit about how you became one of the owners of the Ugly Bug and Crazy Rainbow Fly Fishing.

Blake Jackson (13:24): Yeah, so after I kind of figured out that my career path or what I thought was going to happen after college wasn't really what I wanted to do. I was looking for avenues to do more and more days, much like you'd mentioned the Montana season. Although you can do a lot of days, you're going to work 100 out of 120 sort of fishable days. I'm kind of a numbers dork, so kind of doing the math on what I needed to bring home annually.

And kind of my financial goals, I realized I needed to do more days than what that would provide. So I started looking for other opportunities. And then, unfortunately, my dad was battling some health issues back home here near Casper. So I'd known Brian, my partner, growing up, and reached out to him, and it kind of worked that I could work the shoulder seasons here.

And between here and the Bighorn and the Missouri, I started piecing together a pretty long season. And then what this fishery had to provide and where this kind of business was going here at the Ugly Bug, I made the move here full-time and then kind of got into the partnership role just a couple years after that.

Marvin Cash (14:51): Very neat. And how long ago was that?

Blake Jackson (14:54): That would have been moved back here in '04. So '06, '07 kind of became the partner aspect of things and started taking on a bigger and bigger role. And then at this point, Brian's kind of stepped back and become a silent partner. So kind of running the program mostly myself, which is perfectly great. It's been a good working relationship between the two of us. Definitely fortunate to have him.

Marvin Cash (15:25): Yeah, very neat. And so did the fly shop come first or did the outfitting business come first?

Blake Jackson (15:31): So we're actually the third owners of the Ugly Bug. The Ugly Bug has been around since '83. So fly shop was here, although didn't own the fly shop prior to that. So guide service, Crazy Rainbow came first. And then a couple of years after the start of Crazy Rainbow, the Ugly Bug was purchased.

Marvin Cash (15:53): Got it. And every fly shop I've ever been in has its own personality. What's the vibe like in the Ugly Bug?

Blake Jackson (16:02): Boy, I mean, I think our goal is to be the friendliest fly shop that it's possible. We have a couple of unique things here. I mean, because of our lodge and guide service aspect and then our little shop out at the lodge. But our main fly shop's right here in downtown Casper.

So I think a super friendly fly shop, we've got one of the largest fly selections in the country, both obviously in-house here. And then almost all, good majority of all of our flies are online as well. So through our e-com stores. So really, really heavy on, to me, what makes a fly shop and that's flies. We've got a whole lot of that.

And then we're somewhat unique, too. We also have a couple of female anglers on staff here between Addie Dees, who's kind of the general manager of the business, and T.C. Oliver. So our women's division of our retail as well as our guide service stuff is growing, and we're becoming more and more of a shop for ladies' apparel and that sort of thing.

Marvin Cash (17:17): Very neat. And so where do you fish in Wyoming? And maybe, Blake, if you could tell me a little bit about how that's different from like other parts of the state like Jackson, but also just how it's different from other places to fish in kind of the Rocky Mountain West.

Blake Jackson (17:34): Yeah. So Casper, if you were to think of Wyoming, the big square of Wyoming, is almost dead center of the state. And although we have multiple stretches to fish of the North Platte, and a lot of people think it's multiple rivers, it's actually the same river, but there's kind of three distinctive stretches to it.

There's the Miracle Mile, which kind of rose to its emphasis or its interest, really. Curt Gowdy was the one that really took the Miracle Mile into a common kind of household name in fly fishing when he used to film a lot of his shows there. So the mile would be kind of the uppermost stretch in which we guide, which is just on the downstream side of Seminoe Reservoir.

And then we've got Fremont Canyon, which is a smaller stretch of water and a little narrower stretch of water below Pathfinder Reservoir, more of a walk-wade fishery. And then the big one would be Gray Reef, stretch of the river, which kind of runs from a little town of Alcova, about 30 miles west of Casper, and runs all the way down to my little hometown of Glen Rock, where you then hit a power plant and the water temps warm up a bit. It's not quite as friendly to trout below that power plant.

So in kind of the full scope of things, there's about 90 miles of the North Platte River we guide and some distinctive stretches on that. And then we also guide the Bighorn River, which would be the Wyoming side of the Bighorn River. Obviously, a lot of people are familiar with the Bighorn, but generally think of that in the southern Montana region. And the headwaters of the Bighorn start here in Wyoming, and the river runs north into southern Montana.

So we fish from a location called Wedding of the Waters, basically north towards the town of Whirland and through the town of Thermopolis. So the Wind River, Bighorn River, confuses quite a bit of people because it's one river with two different names. So it starts in the Wind River Mountain Range and then runs north through the Wind River Indian Reservation. And the native Wind River Indians call it the Wind River. But as soon as it departs the reservation, it then becomes Bighorn. So there's a kind of distinctive location there on the edge of the reservation called the Wedding of the Waters, where it switches names.

And then we do some stuff on local smaller creeks as well as some stuff on our reservoirs in this area, both trout and carp. And I think when people think of Wyoming, obviously a lot of folks are familiar with Jackson Hole and the Tetons and big mountains, which we obviously have big mountains. But we're definitely more of an arid, high desert plateau here in Casper. We're really known for fabulous antelope hunting, deer hunting, and elk hunting here in the central part of the state.

But kind of unique in that we don't really have bears and wolves. It's definitely a different sort of climate here versus Jackson Hole. We don't get quite as much snow. It kind of goes back to the desert aspect. But our reservoirs provide a consistent water temperature, a steady food source, which coincides with really healthy fish. So we're kind of known for good numbers of fish, but also really healthy, good size of fish here on the North Platte and the Bighorn.

Marvin Cash (21:26): Got it. So it sounds like really you've got mostly tailwater fisheries and probably lower gradient streams than say what people might expect in like Colorado.

Blake Jackson (21:35): Yeah, you're spot on there. I would compare the Miracle Mile stretch of the North Platte here and kind of looks and feel and kind of the way it fishes a little bit more like the Madison. It's more bouldery and pocket water and a little larger gradient drop than what you see on the Gray Reef. The Gray Reef to me is for those that are familiar with the Bighorn aspect in Montana or the Missouri - much like that kind of slower, meandering, high plateau river that's pretty sizable and quite a bit of water comes down it, but it's not really a rapid, log jam sort of river. It's more of a V trough, mud bottom, kind of slow and meandering. So fish have a pretty easy life, which helps them grow big and fat.

Marvin Cash (22:30): Yeah, there you go. And you're kind of, I guess, probably a month or so, give or take, maybe six weeks into your season. And I kind of think about the season kind of where you are kind of in thirds. And I was wondering if you could kind of break it down into kind of early, middle, and late season and kind of give folks an idea what they can expect in each of those seasons and also maybe kind of the best way to enjoy those.

Blake Jackson (22:54): Yeah, I think you're spot on there. To me, there's just like that. There's three distinctive differences. In our spring season, which we're in right now, we've obviously got fish moving to spawning habitat. We obviously don't fish them on the spawning beds, that sort of thing, but it does lead to them being a little more aggressive. After the winter months, they're looking to pack on some weight, so they're feeding pretty aggressively.

But our spring season is primarily a nymphing season for us. We get a little streamer fishing because we have a really strong leech and crawfish population here on the river. But for the most part, day in and day out, the nymphing is going to produce the best results and kind of lead to the most enjoyment.

And then as we roll into the summer, which is kind of pushed forward for us, at times we're kind of hitting that summer mark, and the end of June, middle of June, pretty aggressively, we start getting more and more PMDs and yellow sallies and the typical kind of summer bugs. And the fish push into the ripples a little more, get super aggressive in the ripples, but some of the kind of slower lake-ier pools aren't quite as productive.

Although there's still a lot of nymphing there it's somewhat different instead of pitching towards the center of the river you're now trying to hit seams on banks and kind of make specific casts and that season also kind of lines up well with the dry dropper sort of program just because the fish are sitting a little more shallow sitting in some oxygen native water and a little easier to find at spots up against the banks.

And then we start getting Tricos, and in many years we get a really phenomenal terrestrial grasshopper beetle game going on here, which can be a lot of fun with our big fish up, sipping dry. Often the Trico thing is a fun challenge for people. A lot of our fish like to sit in pretty slick water, less than a foot, and really feed aggressively on those Tricos.

They're definitely a little harder to pick off at times just because you kind of have to make the right cast. Typical Trico stuff. You're fishing small bugs, a little more intense on the presentation, and then often a relatively large fish on lighter tippet. Now, when I'm talking light tippet, I'm kind of talking Wyoming light, not necessarily light in the general world of trout fishing. Light for us is 4X, 5X. So spooky for what we're used to, but compared to many anglers that are the 6X, 7X sort of people, they're local fisheries. We don't have quite that technical sort of fishing here usually.

And then when we move into the fall, to me, that's probably our most consistent dry fly fishing. It's kind of that pseudo-season with all the pseudo-cleons, but also the good blue wings to kind of follow. On the front end of that, we've still got good terrestrial stuff. So really good dry fly fishing in the fall and dry dropper fishing.

And then kind of our primary streamer fishing takes place here on the reef a little earlier. And then the Miracle Mile streamer fishing really starts picking up kind of into October through November and kind of extends the season a bit there. So definitely some variety throughout the year. And I think one reason we have many customers kind of come back and visit us multiple times throughout the season is it's kind of distinctly different fisheries, not only the time of the year, but also where you're at within the system. It's kind of a totally different experience.

Marvin Cash (27:05): Yeah, I would imagine, too, with all of your tailwaters, you probably aren't quite as susceptible to runoff as some other fisheries in the West?

Blake Jackson (27:15): Yeah, you're exactly right. We do get some runoff this time of year moving forward. But we're fortunate enough here, the main tributary creek below the dam really doesn't start affecting the river until about that eight-mile mark. So generally, even after giant rainstorms, that sort of thing, we're fortunate enough to have clean water right up below the dam and for the first basically first full float or a 12-hour sort of section of water.

And then when we do get runoff here, because we're a little lower, the majority of our runoff comes down the headwaters of the river, which start in northern Colorado. And if you were to look at the design of a water treatment facility, the North Platte system kind of falls right in line with that, where you have a river running into a reservoir and then sections of moving water in between multiple holding ponds. It's really much like a water treatment sort of facility.

So a lot of that sediment settles out when it hits those reservoirs. So as it comes through, by the time it gets down into the reef or even a mile, it's usually generally very, very clean. And, of course, bottom-draft reservoirs, that kind of helps too. So we do get some little tributary stuff here closer to the town of Casper that can lead to some mud and that sort of stuff. But it's mostly runoff associated with big, kind of high plains, western rainstorms, not necessarily snowfall.

Marvin Cash (28:56): Yeah, and it's always neat, too. Like, I know, I guess I think about Cherry on the Madison, and fish in that mud line. I mean, you can get some really nice fish on those occasions.

Blake Jackson (29:06): Oh, yeah. I think many people don't give that kind of muddy off-colored water enough credit. I mean, to me, it might not be your most productive days as far as raw fish numbers, but to me, that's often when those big fish and kind of nocturnal fish start making mistakes. They come out and they're feeding more, and we're fortunate enough to usually find some of those big fish, in some off-colored water.

Marvin Cash (29:37): Yeah, very neat. And Casper is a little bit off the beaten path, and I was kind of curious. I would imagine what most people probably fly into Denver and drive up, but kind of what's the best way to get to you?

Blake Jackson (29:49): Yeah, yeah, you're exactly right. Either fly into Denver and drive up, and a lot of folks kind of come through Casper or come see us as part of a leg on a bigger adventure. We've got a lot of folks that make a loop. Either starting in Denver and up through Wyoming and into southern Montana or through Wyoming and here and over to Jackson Hole and kind of drive a circle back to Denver. And more and more folks renting a car in Denver and, say, flying out of Bozeman. And they can fish multiple waterways in multiple days.

But the folks just trying to come to Casper and fish this area, you can either fly into Denver. You've got about a four-hour drive to the town of Casper here from Denver, and it's all interstate straight up I-25. It's pretty simple. Or we have a pretty sizable airport here in Casper as well. So connecting flights route through Denver, which would be United, or Salt Lake City on Delta. So many folks just fly right here into Casper, and then transportation is pretty easy from that point. It's a shop and a lodge. We provide transport from the airport out to the lodge, and that's only about a 15-minute drive, so pretty quick and easy to get you out there.

And then once you're here and want to kind of do the all-inclusive sort of thing, or with us at the lodge or at one of our cabins. A guide's picking you up right there, and we're serving you dinner in that location. So it's pretty simple.

Marvin Cash (31:27): Yeah, absolutely. And just to kind of give folks a feel, like we were talking before we started recording about the Rib and Chop, but what are some other restaurants and kind of things to do in Casper if maybe you come with some non-fishing family members or you just kind of want to kind of explore the town?

Blake Jackson (31:43): Yeah, Casper's kind of got it all. To me, it's the right size of small city town. So we've got multiple good restaurants. They would say that the Rib and Chop, the Silver Fox, and the Fire Rock are kind of the three big steakhouses, fish houses sort of thing here in town. And obviously Central Wyoming, we're known for cattle ranching and great steaks. So you can't really go wrong there. We've got all the kind of classic, really good Mexican food. We've got great Italian food here in town.

And the city keeps growing and growing as far as events. We host the college national finals rodeo here. We've got multiple rodeos and fairs throughout the summer months. And more and more big acts as far as music, concerts, that sort of thing with our event center here. So not a grand event center, but it can fit 6,000 people or so. So it's a big enough concert venue to pull some pretty good talent and a lot of fun.

And then a ton of history in this region. Independence Rock, the Oregon Trail, great museums, obviously a ton of BLM property for the folks that like to bike or ATV camp. It's really easy here. And then a lot of our business also takes place and kind of coincides with the hunting industry that takes place in Wyoming. About 80% of the world's population of pronghorn antelope live within 90 miles of Casper. So we're a huge destination in the fall months for folks antelope hunting, and a lot of them tack on a fishing trip or try to go fishing as part of their hunt. We've kind of got multiple fun adventures to do.

The mountain here is great. We've got a great bluegrass festival called Bear Trap Music Festival that takes place here in Casper as well, up on top of the mountain. A nice little ski area and cross-country ski area. So there's a lot to do, a ton of stuff to do.

Marvin Cash (34:06): Yeah, absolutely. And I'll try to maybe grab a link from the Chamber of Commerce or something and drop all that stuff in the show notes.

Blake Jackson (34:12): Yeah. And visit Casper. We've got a great kind of outdoor tourism office here in town. And they're a huge help to many visitors that are trying to plan multiple sort of events. And they'll help you out and connect you throughout the state if you're looking to do a loop. So they're a great resource for info as well.

Marvin Cash (34:35): Awesome. And I always like to ask shop owners and outfitters to kind of share their thoughts on kind of what sets their operation apart from other folks.

Blake Jackson (34:48): Yeah, we have a few strategic things here that kind of set us up. Our goal has always been, and my goal has always been, to run a solid fly shop and love life and love the people I deal with. But I think one thing that at times or initially we kind of wondered about that's really been a great asset to us is we're one of the few shops in the country that hire our guide staff as employees. So generally, we're able to get a more experienced guide than a lot of other locations.

Not that guides that are just doing this for a random job aren't a valuable resource and aren't part of the industry, but I've always tried to seek out guides that this is their profession and they think of it that way. And to me, there's a distinct difference in the two. They're trying to please you and they're trying to get you to come back. And they want to be successful. It's not just go through the motion sort of thing. This is their profession. And they take it serious enough that they're willing to go the extra effort and provide what it takes to be successful.

And so by us hiring as employees, it just gives them access to workers' comps and all the things that come with an employee setup versus an independent contractor like most other fishing guides in the country. And then obviously just a ton of dates, that helps too. The more time they're on the water, their knowledge increases, and they become better and better at their craft. And because of our extended season and the amount of work that they get, we've got a lot of really experienced fishing guides that have a great passion for it and are extremely successful.

Marvin Cash (36:51): Yeah, and I know too that you've got some private access and I know that stream access in Wyoming is different than Montana, but I would imagine one of the things that does for you is we keep reading these articles and I've been out on the Madison and it's just getting busier and busier, but I suspect that kind of helps you have a more consistent experience for your clients too.

Blake Jackson (37:11): Totally. Yeah, the ranch here, my partner owns the Gray Reef Ranch, so that's a huge asset to us. We've got eight private boat ramps in that in which we can spread out some of the traffic that we generate ourselves. So even though there might be other boats out, you don't really feel it. But more importantly, like most good anglers will tell you, they'd much rather be the first boat down the river than the last. So it allows us to be kind of ahead of the general public. Often the general public ramp and the few outfitters that operate off of those public ramps, they're a couple hours behind us. So, yes, the river gets some traffic, but you really don't realize it because you're always ahead of it with us.

And then because of the stream access laws here in Wyoming, although they can be a negative in some circumstances, obviously there's a positive angle to it as well. We're the only ones getting out and wade fishing. We've got private lunch huts on the river, which allow us to kind of step up the lunch program a little bit. And we're able to serve hot meals and barbecue. Those lunch hut gazebo sort of setups allow us to jump up and get out of the elements as well as have restroom facilities and that sort of thing. So a big asset there to be able to do that and definitely kind of separates us from the other outfitters operating here, but also in many cases the other outfitters in the region because we can stop and not only just stop but be the only one stopping.

Marvin Cash (39:02): Yeah, and the gazebos are a big deal. I mean, if you've ever been out in a hailstorm and had to make that decision about whether you need to flip the drift boat over or not.

Blake Jackson (39:05): Yeah, it yeah, we don't get - I mean, we do get some crazy weather here from time to time obviously it's Wyoming like we can get some storms moving in quick but yeah they're just a great luxury it's you often don't realize what the sun's kind of doing to you or the fatiguing aspect of it and to be able to jump in that thing for 45 minutes and throw on some more sunscreen and get out of the wind or whatever it may be can be really, really nice.

And it's great for family settings, for company outings, that sort of thing. It really allows us to do some unique creative things there. I mean, we've had meetings outdoors and those with sales reps before. We've done all kinds of stuff. Obviously avoided multiple hailstorms, windstorms, rainstorms in them. But, yeah, they're just a nice asset to have.

Marvin Cash (39:57): Yeah, absolutely. And you touched on the hunting a little bit earlier, but you guys do cast and blast as well, right?

Blake Jackson (40:03): Yeah, we do. We've got a bird facility here on the ranch also. So it's a put-and-take kind of pheasant chucker operation. And then with that, we've got a five-stand clay course as well as three different kind of sporting clay opportunities, three separate sporting clay courses. So the sporting clay and the five-stand, many customers will do that in conjunction with a fishing trip in the summer months. But the bird preserve hunting operation, that starts up September 1 and runs through the end of March. So there is quite a bit of overlap with our fishing season as well and kind of a unique, fun addition to kind of break it up and mix it up and do both in a day or flip-flop days. There's all different kinds of itineraries we can put together with that.

Marvin Cash (41:01): And very neat. Do you do any waterfowl as well?

Blake Jackson (41:05): Yeah, we sure do. We're not a great waterfowl flyway here, but we are fortunate that in the harsh weather, when the rest of the river freezes and we only have 8 or 10 miles of open water, that definitely consolidates the birds that we do have here and consolidates them right up there on the ranch. So we definitely take advantage of that from time to time and enjoy some waterfowling.

Marvin Cash (41:32): Very neat. In doing research for the interview, I learned that you like to chase carp. When did you get the carp bug?

Blake Jackson (41:42): Well, I've kind of had it for years. I started tinkering with it in Montana on the lower - not necessarily lower Missouri, but below Three Forks before it had towards Helena. Got into it there, and then when I got here, it kind of just kept getting under my skin and pretty obsessed by it now. I love the saltwater fish as well, and there's obviously some similarities there. But it's a nice breakup in the summer months for me to get out in the summer and chase some carp, chase different species like that.

And kind of unique. We push a flats boat around here, and we really fish them like you'd be fishing redfish down in Texas or whatever. It's very, very similar stuff. We chase a lot of both common and mirror carp, but our reservoirs have a healthy biomass of carp in them, and it can make for a really fun day.

Marvin Cash (42:43): Very neat. Yeah, I run across them kind of in the mid-Atlantic when I'm smallmouth fishing. And it's always what I would consider to be a sobering change of pace from topwater fishing for smallmouth.

Blake Jackson (42:57): Yeah, they're such a unique creature in their ability to adapt and live in different environments and locations. To me, it's always just been fascinating how a carp in a reservoir can behave totally different than a carp in a river and totally different food sources. They're both still successful and healthy and making the most of the situation. It's really unique to me, eating mulberries and cottonseeds and just how resourceful they can be.

And very humbling at times, too. Although at times, they seem like you can catch all you want, and then the next day you go out and you struggle to land any of them because they get kind of picky and snobbish. They're just kind of a moody creature at times and can definitely change on you.

Marvin Cash (43:51): Yeah, absolutely. And I understand, too, you enjoy big game hunting in Wyoming.

Blake Jackson (43:57): I do, yeah. I love to big game hunt. I love to travel, not only for hunting, but fishing. And we host some little trips there to different locations. But yeah, I definitely have the hunting bug big time. Primarily with a bow, but I'm not against rifle hunting either. So I love to chase elk and just about anything I can draw a tag for.

And Wyoming's a great state for that. It's very relaxed and loose with the number of tags that they issue to residents. So we're very fortunate to be able to generally draw multiple big game tags in a year and help harvest some great food but also have some great experiences out in the outdoors.

Marvin Cash (44:46): Yeah, absolutely. That's a great way to kind of wind down from probably the busiest part of your fishing season.

Blake Jackson (44:53): Yeah, exactly. It's a nice step away and it's kind of nice - as an outfitter our phone kind of never quits. So that time of year I'm definitely ready to unplug and go up in the hills even if I wanted to answer the phone there's no way it's going to ring because there's no service so it's kind of nice to get away from it.

Marvin Cash (45:14): Yeah, it's funny you say that that was why I originally started going to Montana. It's not like that anymore but when I first started going it was hard to get a signal and I liked it.

Blake Jackson (45:21): Yeah, yeah. For sure. It's not all that hard in Wyoming still. You go about 12 miles out of town, you can get there pretty quick. No service at all.

Marvin Cash (45:31): Well, that's good to know. And Blake, before I let you go this evening, is there anything that I've left out that you'd like to share with our listeners?

Blake Jackson (45:39): No, I don't think so. I think if anyone's ever needing help, we're more than happy to lend some advice or lend some help. We'd love to, if anyone's interested in Central Wyoming, we'd love to talk further about it.

Marvin Cash (45:52): Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of that, what's kind of the best way for folks, I guess, one, to follow your fishing adventures and all the stuff that goes on with the Ugly Bug, but also to book Crazy Rainbow to take someone out for a day?

Blake Jackson (46:05): Yeah, there's multiple ways to find us. Obviously, they can give us a ring here at the fly shop. That's 307-234-6905 is the office number here. You can always shoot us an email. You can find us online at uglybugflyshop or crazyrainbow.net. Google search either - you'll find us quickly. And then the typical social media platforms of Facebook and Instagram at uglybugflyshop and I post most of our fishing adventure stuff on there and a lot of stuff as far as product reviews, guide service stuff kind of goes on all those different platforms. And then, like most outfitters, we've got a blog, both on the retail side of the Ugly Bug, but also on the Crazy Rainbow side of fishing reports and information like that.

Marvin Cash (46:58): Very neat. And I will drop all that stuff in the show notes. I appreciate that. Well, listen, Blake, I really appreciate you carving out a little bit of time for me before dinner, given the time difference to chat today. I really appreciate it.

Blake Jackson (47:12): Yeah, thanks so much. Sure appreciate you having me on.

Marvin Cash (47:14): Take care.

Blake Jackson (47:16): Take care.

Marvin Cash (47:18): Well folks I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Tight lines everybody.