S4, Ep 61: Alice Owsley of Riverside Anglers

**Marvin Cash (00:04):** Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. On this episode, I'm joined by Alice Owsley, the outfitter behind Riverside Anglers in West Yellowstone. Alice shares her fly fishing journey and we take a deep dive into all things Montana and Yellowstone fly fishing. I think you're really going to enjoy this one. But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out. And a shout out to this episode's sponsor. This episode's brought to you by our friends at Artisan Angler. If you're looking for a better way to organize your flies, tippet and tools, you should check out the fly trap at artisananglerllc.com. I've dropped the link in the show notes. They sell direct through Amazon, so you get prime shipping and free returns. It doesn't get any easier than that. Make your time on the water more productive and check out the fly trap today. Now, on to our interview. Well, Alice, welcome to The Articulate Fly.

**Alice Owsley (01:06):** Thank you for having me.

**Marvin Cash (01:07):** I'm really looking forward to our conversation tonight, and we have a tradition on The Articulate Fly. We like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

**Alice Owsley (01:15):** Oh, well, my earliest fishing memory is actually fly fishing. I learned how to fly fish before conventional fishing, which is not maybe the typical path for most anglers. But my dad had learned how to fly fish from a bunch of friends one weekend. And he actually was not enthusiastic about even going on the trip. And then he got home after that and just went, oh, my gosh, this is it. This is the thing that I want to be doing. And so he thought it would be a good sport for our family not soon after that. So he took my brother and my mom and I up to the Trout Club in Castalia, Ohio. And this is the Rockwell Springs Trout Club, which some of your members may have heard of. And I was born in Ohio. So this was a couple hours away from our house. And he figured out how to tie a little swivel on the end of our lines so that we could change our own flies and kind of put us in what's called the kid's pool, which you're not allowed to get in the water on these little spring creeks. But this is an area where the water is kind of dammed up a little bit and we could see the fish. And so I think we both had on, my brother and I had on Woolly Buggers, probably something we could see. And we were watching the fish chase it. And we had learned how to cast a little bit, but we were probably pretty loud. And so we were just casting and walking around chasing these fish around in the pool. And they were trout, rainbow trout and brown trout. And it was awesome. And I think one of the things that I'm laughing when I think of this, because I got so annoyed when younger brother, he's three years younger than I am. He probably snagged his first fish. And I would probably say that mine honestly ate the fly because I knew that snagging was wrong and just thought that was appalling. So whenever there was a conversation, anytime he caught a fish bigger than me, I always said, ah, he snagged it. He didn't eat it. Honestly.

**Marvin Cash (03:14):** Oh, no treble hooks, right?

**Alice Owsley (03:17):** No, no, no. And the funny part is when I did later learn how to spin fish, we're standing on the dock on a small lake in Ohio. And my dad and my brother are standing there trying to teach me how to cast a spinning rod. And I just kept backcasting it. And so then I just wrapped the lure around the rod tip and it was a lake that had bass in it with lily pads and everything else. So there was something to catch there, but I could hardly get the lure into the water because I just kept picking it up and I'd backcast and then stop and they'd shake their head and go, Oh, start over again.

**Marvin Cash (03:51):** Yeah. That's funny. How old were you on that first fly fishing trip?

**Alice Owsley (03:55):** I was eight.

**Marvin Cash (03:56):** Wow. And to say that you're eaten up with it now is a little bit of an understatement. Tell us a little bit about your journey from eight years old to not necessarily to today, but being a teenager and kind of growing up.

**Alice Owsley (04:10):** Sure. I fished with my dad and my brother. That was generally a destination for us most every summer vacation for the most part. And that was Pennsylvania, Ohio, New York, different fishing destinations kind of within driving distance in West Virginia and then later Virginia. My first trip out west was in 1988 when the big fires were happening in Yellowstone National Park. And that was kind of my exposure to big rivers, big mountains, a big place. We floated the Snake, we fished, we camped, we rode horses, we fished in the park, we did all these things. And I just went, whoa, this is crazy. So I fished through middle school and high school with my family. Really, my own fly fishing, going out on my own fishing, occurred towards the end of high school. And I certainly was distracted by all the pretty normal things that one is distracted by in middle school and high school and college. But fly fishing was certainly something my family did. And I could come back to that. And when I got into college, I went to school in Western North Carolina at Warren Wilson College. And there's a river that runs literally right through campus, the Swannanoa River. And so I was kayaking, I was biking, I was climbing, I was going to school, I was working, I was fishing a little bit. And I'm glad that I had that opportunity to try all those different things because then I sold the kayak. I kept the mountain bike. I didn't do as much climbing, but I added in skiing. I started getting into different active sports, but fishing was something that I just kept doing. And maybe it was fishing a little creek close to school or close to home, or it was going to Belize with my dad chasing tarpon because we wanted to have that experience. So I kept up with fishing. And then it was the main driver for my eventually moving out West and moving to the Yellowstone area.

**Marvin Cash (06:19):** Yeah, very neat. And so obviously your family was a very important part of your fishing. But who are some people outside your family that kind of mentored you on the early part of your fly fishing journey?

**Alice Owsley (06:32):** Well, my first, when I made the first decision that I wanted to maybe look into working in the fishing industry instead of pursuing going to graduate school in forest entomology, I actually took a casting class with Joan Wulff at the FFF Festival or Conclave in Livingston, Montana, took some fly tying classes, met a bunch of other women who were in the industry and it kind of like this light bulb went off and I went oh there's a fly fishing industry like people actually work in this and make money which I hesitate on that and say yes. You can make money in the fishing industry. May not be the same lifestyle as some other places, but so far it's been good for me. So the people that I met on that trip in Livingston going into fly shops, fishing around kind of southern Montana a bit, influenced my decision to work at a fly shop when I got back to Asheville. And so that led me to meeting not only the people in the shop at Hunter Banks who were educating me on the fishing industry and working retail and fly fishing and travel and all these things, but they then introduced me to Lorianne Murphy and Patty Riley, who were teaching the women's fly fishing schools for them in Western North Carolina. So Frank Smith, the owner, had met Patty Riley down in Argentina and then had Patty and Lorianne come to Asheville to teach the women's fishing schools. And they said, hey, we need more women fishing guides out west. Why don't you come out? So I made the connection then to get a job and work at Henry's Fork Anglers in Island Park, Idaho. But before I did that, I went to the Western Rivers Guide School, which was run out of the Orvis store in Jackson Hole. And through that school, I met a number of fishing guides who I kind of kept in touch with on and off for several years after that, especially when I lived in Driggs in the wintertime when I wasn't fishing guiding or working retail elsewhere. And then when I left Henry's Fork Anglers the next summer I went guided in Alaska and worked for Nancy Morris up there for a season but I missed Yellowstone and I came back to this area and I really wanted to work in the Yellowstone area specifically so I applied for a job at the Firehole Ranch here in West Yellowstone. And it took two years of applying before that actually happened because they didn't have much turnover in their guide staff, which is a testament to the clientele and the operation. And once I started working at the Firehole Ranch, I had connections in the industry, but I feel like a lot of the head guides that I worked for taught me a lot, not just on guiding, but also working in the industry and customer service. So Jim Birkenfield was the head guide when I worked there. And then George Kelly became the head fishing guide and George Kelly from the Bighorn folks know him from guiding and running a lodge over on the Bighorn River. And he kind of eased into retirement by coming and working at the Firehole Ranch as fishing guide and the head fishing guide. And I'm still friends with George and I fish with him saltwater and freshwater now. And we talk quite a bit about all sorts of things in fishing and the industry. So he was definitely an influence. And, oh my gosh, I feel like there's a long list of folks that I have known through international women fly fishers, different gals that I've met, and other fishing guides that I've been able to talk and bounce ideas off. And so I feel like those are mentor relationships to, you know, Kiki Galvin over in the DC area, Jenny West, who is a good friend of mine and a fishing guide and outfitter in Hamilton, Montana. And then a lot of outfitters in North Carolina or sorry, Southwest Montana have been very helpful to me in mentoring, like I said, not just in the guiding part, but some of it then comes to running a business and all the other aspects of what I do.

**Marvin Cash (10:59):** Yeah. Very neat. And I know you mentioned the Orvis guide school, but I also know that you went to the Wulff School of Fly Fishing and, you know, it's maybe a little less unusual now, but, you know, back when you were kind of breaking into it, it was unusual for folks that wanted to be guides to go to guide school and to go to casting school. Can you tell us a little bit about more about those experiences and why you wanted to be more formal about your education that early in your career?

**Alice Owsley (11:27):** Yes. I attended the Wulff School of Fly Fishing the year after I went to guide school. So I went to guide school like two weeks after I graduated from college. And some people said to me at the time, oh, it's the school of hard knocks. Just show up and you'll just work in the shop and you'll figure it out. You'll get the experience and, you know, row a boat and the guides will teach you and you'll just get out there and do it. And I thought, gosh, I already have enough things working against me a bit because I was a young woman that I felt like going to guide school would give me a certificate that if I pass, yay or nay, I can actually do this. And I also felt like it's just in my nature, but the education of getting proper training on handling a boat, reading water. And I was on the canoe and kayak team when I was in college. So I'm spending a lot of time on the water already and did a little whitewater raft guiding, but this is a different deal. And I also took it very seriously because once I had set my mind to this, I was dedicated to wanting to be a fishing guide. And so I thought, well, formal training is the way to go. I'm going to go to guide school. And I thought it was great. I learned how to row. I made all sorts of mistakes in a very safe environment. I did all sorts of embarrassing things now that I know not to do them. You know, you do certain things a few times and hopefully you learn. So I'm glad I had that kind of cushioning to learn those mistakes. And then I had a drift boat when I got back from Alaska. I bought a drift boat and spent a year floating friends down the river and friends of friends or people who just wanted to go drink wine and look at the Tetons. It didn't matter. I would float you down the river and I was getting more and more experience. I did all sorts of things during that year that I won't share on the podcast. One I'll share on the podcast that I did, which is just an honest mistake, was I had backed into a steep boat ramp on the lower Henry's Fork and I had put my oars on the boat, got it all ready, and then I backed partway down the ramp and then for some reason jumped out of my truck. I went around and looked at something and I turned around and I was walking up past the boat. And the oars were perfectly horizontal. And I was blinded by the sunlight or something. And I walked right into it and took it right across the bridge, my oar, right across the bridge of my nose. And knocked me over, you know, probably got a bloody nose. But I didn't do it with clients. I did it with friends. So we laughed about that and continued on fishing. And I had a nice mark across my face for several days after that. But that being said, the same went with the Wulff School Fly Fishing. I did that the season, that was in the spring, right before my first real full-time season of guided fishing when I was headed to Alaska. I was going up to work on the Naknek River in King Salmon, Alaska. And I always knew about, well, I'd taken that casting class from Joan. I had some of her books. I knew what she was teaching. I knew about her and knew about Lee. And my dad was a certified casting instructor at that point. He had gotten certified at one of the fly fishing shows, I believe that he had gone to prior to that. And so he wanted to go to her school and it was something we went and did together. And of course I did because I was a fishing guide and wanted to be a fishing guide. So this, I just felt like was additional education for me. And I remember, you know, watching Joan teach, because this was the casting instructor school. So she was teaching us not only running us through her casting education, but also how to teach. These are the different drills you can run people through. These are the things you need to pay attention to and how you present yourself. This is how you conduct a casting lesson. You know, we learned all those different things for teaching that I thought were very applicable to being a fishing guide.

**Marvin Cash (15:37):** Yeah, very neat. It's a really special place. I mean, the inn that's up there that everybody stays at is great. And it's always amazing to see, you know, how far those instructors will drive for those weekends to help teach those classes.

**Alice Owsley (15:48):** Yes, definitely. I know I haven't been back to that part of the world, but I was recently included on the board for the Catskill Fly Fishing Museum. And so with some of my friends in that part of the world, we're trying to figure out an excuse. I'd like to get back up there and certainly see Joan, but see that part of the world again. It's been a bunch of years since I've fished in that area.

**Marvin Cash (16:09):** Yeah, it's a neat place. And, you know, I like to ask all of our guide guests to kind of share what they think the secret is to being a good guide.

**Alice Owsley (16:19):** Oh, gosh. You know, I think patience is probably the biggest one. And listening are two secrets, if you will. And they're not secrets, you know. There's certainly, every guide has their personality and has their program, if you will. And there's nothing wrong with that because you do want to be good at what you're doing. But I think listening to your clients and taking in their expectations, taking in all the clues of kind of how their day, the vision of their day that they have is, will help you a lot in your success as a fishing guide. And then patience. You know, everyone learns differently and we all communicate differently. And your clients are your clients for the day. And if you're, say, more of an auditory explainer of things, but your clients are more visual learners, then you're going to have to do what you need to do to make them successful and teach them what you need to teach them for the day. The other thing that I would say is knowing what you're doing as far as, you know, maybe having a plan for the day, communicating that well with your clients and having an idea. There's no question that, I joke around about this, that I have plan A, B and C. And there's days where we've ended up all the way on J, K and L because of all the different things that kind of get thrown at me. And some of that's significant to Yellowstone and some of it's just life of working outside, you know, dealing with weather and water and flat tires and rivers, you know, whatever. It's short, it's long floats, you know, it's just all these things and just, you know, having a plan, communicating with your folks and then just being confident in what the day is going to look like, knowing that you might have to change your plan.

**Marvin Cash (18:13):** Yeah. It's funny too. It always amazes me how reluctant people are to tell their guide what they want to get out of their day.

**Alice Owsley (18:23):** Right. No, I have people who tell me when they book, I mean, it's a sentence long. They might say, which this is somebody wrote this recently in an email when we were getting the deposit taken care of and I got him his receipt and he emailed me back we're just looking to have a good day and maybe throw streamer. The reality is he's coming at a time when the dry fly fishing is amazing. I wrote back and I said well I'll see if throwing streamer is part of our day but just so you know you're here when we should have really good hatches and great dry fly fishing. And so we've already started that rapport. We've already started that communication. I'm already prepared at the beginning of the day to say, hey, if you're going to throw streamer, this is the time of day when we're going to do it. But we're going to be prepared at this time of the day because we might have some good dry fly fishing. It also opens the door for them to say, gosh, you know, the reason we throw streamer is we don't have a lot of experience throwing dry fly because we don't have that close to home. Excellent. You know, then I have an opportunity to educate them a little bit on why and what's going on and set them up to hopefully get that different experience and have that opportunity to learn something new.

**Marvin Cash (19:30):** Yeah. Very neat. And also one of the follow-up questions I always like to ask too is, you know, what's the biggest misconception you think folks have about the life of a fishing guide?

**Alice Owsley (19:39):** Oh yeah. This is a double whammy in my house because we're both full-time fishing guides. The days are long and I'm not just, that's not just a cliche or taken right out of the Scientific Anglers video, but it is true. The days are long. And I feel like part of it is we have such an investment in our day and our clients. And so there's a bit of an emotional part in there. My dentist asked me, he's like, how are you stressed out? You're a fishing guide. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Not only do I run my own business, but I am, I am worried about things for the day, how things are going to go, what the day is going to look like, what's it going to be like here or there? You know, are, am I going to meet their expectations? Like we do think and worry about that stuff. So that, that not only is it a physically demanding job, which granted in the most beautiful office possible. But there's some other taxing parts of the day. So the days start early and being on the water is awesome. And then there's still a couple hours of work afterwards. So it's not always going to the bar and drinking a few beers after work and then getting up and doing it again the next day. That's not exactly how it goes every time.

**Marvin Cash (20:58):** Yeah. And you don't get to play poker every night either, right?

**Alice Owsley (21:02):** No. I do not want to play poker every night. But there's, I mean, it is fun. I mean, I obviously am choosing to do this and I do enjoy being out on the water and all the beautiful places that I get to call my office.

**Marvin Cash (21:17):** Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, there's a difference between wanting to work in a fly shop and being a guide, but there's a huge difference between, you know, wanting to be a guide and wanting to be an outfitter. What made you decide to take that plunge?

**Alice Owsley (21:33):** I didn't necessarily know that was a path until I kind of I learned from actually Betsy French she and her husband used to own Gallatin River Guides in Big Sky, Montana they actually started that fly shop and operation and I met Betsy through the International Women Fly Fishers which I had gone to their first gathering in 1996 in San Francisco I learned about it when I was at that Conclave in Livingston. But at that time I was in college and I was majoring in forestry and my minor was an outdoor leadership. And that is kind of outdoor recreation, all the applications for outdoor education, but then also the programs that one would run in the outdoors and looking at maybe what's your purpose, who's your clients you're going to serve, all these different types of things. And so I focused on a women's fly fishing event when I was working on building a program in that college program and so they you know they wanted us to build kind of a this was a graduate style project and so we were writing a business plan for a program and so again this was an opportunity to go through the motions and learn about all of this in a safe environment. And so we had to write up everything, like how many vehicles are you going to need? Where are you going to get your supplies? How are you going to do your hiring? You know, what are your insurance costs going to be? How are you going to deal with transportation? Who are you going to serve in your clientele? Where are you going to go? What are the logistics from, you know, advertising this to taking people's money to being out in the field? And so I, with some advice from Betsy and some other women, wrote a women's fly fishing program for the Big Sky area and it was not necessarily something that is practical because there's no way we could haul that much gear on a backpacking trip that would include yoga classes first aid, cooking in the field and fly fishing. Way too much gear for everybody to handle. But I could see my opportunities to learn all of this and exactly what I could use that for potentially in the future. So that program, I did not write it thinking, oh, yeah, I'm going to go be a fishing guide in Montana, and I'm going to figure out how to do this. It was just running this hypothetical program. But I did know at that time, I did think about I want to run my own business, you know, and so I was learning a bunch of parts of that. I will also say that my dad and his side of the family is very entrepreneurial. And so there was a little bit of that that's probably in my genetics. So once I got out west and learned from how the system works in all the different states in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming, when I saw that there was an opportunity in Montana for me to get an outfitter's license and eventually run my own guide business, I knew that was a possibility and kind of started working towards that direction, I think, once I started guiding here in West Yellowstone. And so Craig Matthews was the outfitter at the Firehole Ranch at the time. And we had to do all our outfitter paperwork. I was paying attention, of course, because these were my bosses, the manager at the ranch, the head fishing guide and our outfitter. I was paying attention to what we needed to do and what was going on. And as soon as I had enough days to get my Outfitters license, I did. And that was in 2004. And I just held on to it because at that point I thought, well, somewhere down the road, I'm going to run my own business and we'll just see what happens. But I continued to work at the Firehole Ranch and I guided there for 11 seasons. The last four that I was there, I became the Montana Outfitter for the ranch. And so all the Montana trips were on my Outfitters license. And I was starting to do a few trips on my own outside of the ranch season. And because they have a short season from about the second week of June until the third week of September. So there's quite a bit of opportunity before and after that season to guide a few trips. So I was already starting to think about what that was going to look like as far as how I was going to use my outfitter license for more trips down the road. And after 11 seasons of working at the ranch, I decided it was time for me to go out on my own. And I'd had experience teaching women's fishing schools, running some for the ranch, guiding every day for the ranch and for some other outfitters at that point. And I was ready to take the plunge and see what it was like to run my own business.

**Marvin Cash (26:26):** Very neat. And just for folks that don't understand, you know, I guess you were mentioning, you know, like Montana, Idaho and some of the other northern rocky states, they have a much more rigorous regulation system than we say we have in North Carolina. You want to kind of let folks know kind of how that outfitter guide interaction is in a state like Montana?

**Alice Owsley (26:45):** Yes, for sure. There are some states, and I don't know if this is still true in North Carolina, but there are some states, because there's not a lot of fishing guides in some areas of the country, that you can print your guide license off of the same printer that you print your fishing license off of. And there doesn't seem to be a requirement for that. Now, there may be some other business responsibilities, liability insurance or commercial auto. But in states out here, there has to be, in Montana and Idaho, there's an outfitter who runs the business end of it. And then they have guides who work for them. Idaho is much more restrictive in that they have a limited number of outfitter licenses basically for the whole state. They broke down every waterway into different sections. There's only so many guide trips allowed per section per outfitter. It's much more regulated. It is, from what I can see, the only way to get into owning a business in Idaho at this point is to buy one. You're not going to start a business from the ground up. Montana has the opportunity to start a business from the ground up. You work now. I think the rules are it's 150 days of guided trips. So you work for another outfitter as a fishing guide that and filling out an application and being approved. So you have to have some letters of reference and a few other things allows you to then go take a test in Montana. And the test is there's an outfitter license and then they break it down into fishing and hunting and then also horse packing and using livestock to get to fishing or hunting destinations. So if you're in pursuit of fish or game and you're going to get paid to guide people to do that, then you have to have a guide license and that has to be under an outfitter. So an outfitter endorses the guide license. The outfitter can take money. The outfitter can advertise. And then they assign trips to fishing guides who then take clients guiding. I can also be a one boat outfitter where I'm an outfitter and doing the guiding, not to be confused with a booking agent that's a whole different deal.

**Marvin Cash (29:03):** Yeah and in North Carolina it is still you know I think it's 35 bucks and you're a fishing guide.

**Alice Owsley (29:08):** Yep and I know I have friends who guide North Carolina who are complete professional fishing guides so I know that there are people who are going the route of learning their water and working through a fly shop or an outfitter and making that happen but yes I also know that at one point everybody in the fly shop could print out a guide license and call themselves fishing guide.

**Marvin Cash (29:29):** Yeah. I think Kevin Howell is actually in the process of starting a guide association. So, Oh good. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, it was really interesting to, wanted you to share the story about how you came up with the name of your outfitting business.

**Alice Owsley (29:43):** Oh yeah. So my business is called Riverside Anglers and Riverside was the first name for West Yellowstone. So West Yellowstone is the west entrance to Yellowstone National Park. When Yellowstone was brought into existence as our nation's first national park in 1872, there was no one to look after the park. So it was put under the War Department. They built Fort Yellowstone up at Mammoth, which is the park headquarters still there today. But that was the kind of military installation that looked after the park. And so they had army patrols throughout the park. And the army station closest to this side of the park was called Riverside Station. It was down on the Madison on this west side of the park. They later figured out they could, instead of getting supplies and things from the north, which was the closest railroad, they could go out the west side and get down through Idaho and they could get the mail and the groceries and things would kind of come in this west side. Later, the railroad came to West Yellowstone in 1908. And that's when they decided to make it an official entrance and change the name. So it was Riverside Station, and then it became Riverside, Montana. And I thought Riverside Anglers was a perfect name for a guided fishing business, because it does anchor it a bit to this area. But it also just talks about, you know, that's somewhere that we all dream of and want to be. We're working towards that opportunity to be riverside and hopefully watching some fish rise and getting a chance to make a cast.

**Marvin Cash (31:24):** Very neat. And as you mentioned, you're located in West Yellowstone and wanted you to share with my folks the waters that you guide and also just kind of the general arc of your guide season.

**Alice Owsley (31:29):** Sure. I probably do at least half of my trips in Yellowstone National Park and the other half are on the Madison outside of the park on this west side. So from the mouth of Earthquake Lake going all the way down towards Ennis, Montana. So all of Yellowstone National Park, going in the west gate, I can head in any direction. And those are all wade fishing trips in Yellowstone. And the Yellowstone National Park fishing season opens on Memorial Day weekend. The Madison, which is outside the park, I guide wade fishing trips and float trips out of a drift boat on the Madison. And runoff on the Madison is usually over by middle to late June. And then our season extends partway into October. It's really the fall weather that kind of ends the fishing, in my opinion, at that end of the season. It's not that I can't handle it. This is the coldest place in the nation and I do live here year round, but the days get shorter and clients are certainly thinking about fishing in other destinations than coming up to almost 7,000 feet to fish for trout in October. So my season is the busiest June, July, August and September. I do guide a few trips in April, May, this time of year. And then into the fall, like I said, a few trips in October.

**Marvin Cash (32:59):** Yeah, got it. And just kind of, I mean, this is a huge question. I mean, the park is massive, but, you know, just to give folks kind of a general feel on kind of the insect, you know, hatches, terrestrials, streamer fishing, you know, the migration of the browns in the fall, all that kind of good stuff.

**Alice Owsley (33:16):** Sure. You know, we start the season fishing lower elevation streams, especially those that are influenced by the thermal activity coming out of the geyser basin. So we could start the season with blue-winged olives and caddis kind of right out of the gate on that Memorial Day weekend. And then as the season warms up or the weather warms up in the summer, our season progresses into those higher elevation streams. So they'll start to see bug activity a little higher up. By July and August, we're fishing. We're still fishing a few mayfly, maybe the occasional caddis at high elevation, but definitely fishing terrestrial and ants, beetles, hoppers, attractor patterns. And going into the fall, we start to see blue-winged olives again. We might see some fall drakes going in the beginning of September. And then once our weather starts to cool off, we do see migration of fish moving in the park. And they're moving out of those bigger bodies of water into some of the rivers and smaller streams. And it's both brown trout and the occasional fall-spawning rainbow. And I think some of the other rainbows are going up the stage in some spots, but the fall fishing could be depends on our weather. You know, if we get cool weather early and a nice long Indian summer, that's going to change things versus what we've had some years with by the 10th of September, it's snowing. And then we've got cool, wet weather kind of all through September and October. So we do see those fish migrating out of Hebgen Lake and other parts of the park where fish are moving out of bigger bodies of water going up to spawn. So I will just, my opportunity for a PSA, I'm not targeting spawning fish on their reds or in those spots, but we have several miles of water where those fish are traveling through. So they're not on their spawning beds. They're not there yet. They don't spawn until later in the season. But as they're moving through those spots, we do have the opportunity to get a fly in front of them as they're moving up.

**Marvin Cash (35:26):** Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, what should folks generally expect, you know, with a day on the water with Riverside Anglers?

**Alice Owsley (35:34):** Well, it's a full day. And some mornings that starts early, especially in the middle of the summer. And also, especially if we're going to be driving into Yellowstone. And if we're driving through the park, probably going to get a little bit of an interpretive tour out of me because it's hard not to talk about forest fires and wildlife and trees and thermal activity and geology and a little history and all sorts of other things going through the park. Even outside the park, we have some very unique spots here in this region. So I, in the wintertime, I drive a snow coach in the park doing interpretive tours, and I just can't not talk about some of that stuff in the summer too. And there's always going to be instruction at the beginning of the day. Even if I've fished with you before, there's probably something new that I'm going to say, or that I've been on the water for the last several days. And I can say, hey, there's a chance we're going to see this today. Or, gosh, the water level is here. So, you know, as we're floating the banks, I want to see your fly this far away from the structure of the bank or this bubble line is going to be here. So for the folks that are maybe new to floating and fishing out of a boat or maybe they're new to fly fishing, we could start out with just a casting lesson on the bank or it might be reviewing line management. So there's always some introduction there. Once I'm on the water, I'm usually talking about where the fish live, how to read water and a lot of that is just so that we're on the same page we're using the same language. You know what I mean. I've just hopefully demonstrated it to you or pointed it out. So there's a heavy education kind of towards the beginning there but I also recognize you're on the river to have fun that's why you're on vacation that's why you came fishing and so I try not to make that too thick with education and have a good day. There's lots of water available and cold drinks in the cooler. You're going to have a very tasty lunch that I purchased from a local caterer. And then hopefully we're going to have some success on the water and then not leave, not leave, well, the goal is to leave the river as nice as we found it or even better. So at the end of the day, it's all catch and release. We're putting the fish back and we're treating the whole environment that we're in with a bit of respect.

**Marvin Cash (38:01):** Very neat and you know you talked about education at the beginning of the day but it's also really clear that it is kind of interwoven in everything you do at Riverside Anglers. You know why is education so important to you?

**Alice Owsley (38:11):** Well I would like to think that most anglers are always looking for an opportunity to improve themselves as a fisherman on the river and I also feel like people appreciate the environment that they're in and take better care of it if they have a little understanding of kind of what's going on and what's around them.

**Marvin Cash (38:37):** Got it. And you know, you've been in West Yellowstone for a while and I mean, I haven't fished out there as long as you've been out there, but it's changed a lot. And I was kind of curious to get your thoughts on kind of the changes that you've seen, you know, what concerns you and kind of what gives you hope about West.

**Alice Owsley (38:53):** Well, West Yellowstone is kind of a crazy little town. I mean, our year-round population is about 1,700 people. And right now there are four full-time fly shops in town, which is just a crazy amount of fly shops per population. And then also it's just a tourist town. I mean, we have way more t-shirt shops than we do fly shops. That's for sure. So West Yellowstone, we're lucky. We kind of have all of our basic needs met in this little town right on the edge of Yellowstone National Park. You know, as far as living here year round and having what we need. And summer can be crazy, but we also know that that's what drives our economy is the visitors that have to come through West Yellowstone, whether they're fishing or hiking or camping and coming into the park. There certainly, over the last few years especially, have been a lot more people in the area and visiting this part of the world. And I think it's drawing attention to the fact that we have to take as best to care of some of these spots as we can. And if we want to preserve them, if we want to be able to enjoy them and we want to see them continue on, there really needs to be some responsibility taken for just behavior and taking care of things as you would like to see them preserved. But I can't make any predictions on what Yellowstone is going to do for managing visitors in the summertime. There certainly is some indication from how other parks are managing their visitors that that might happen. But I think Yellowstone is a very special place and it has everybody's image for themselves of how Yellowstone exists is different. And it's a very sticky subject on how that's going to go. So town just continues to move on and go and function. And that's, like I said, it's a good thing. You know, being able to live in a small town and have all of our basic needs covered is a good thing. As far as anglers go and folks visiting the area, certainly there are more and more fishermen in Yellowstone and outside. And that's definitely a perception from a social standpoint of how many people are on the river. And there is conversation about a management plan for the Madison outside of the park, and that is being worked on currently. I don't have any inside leads on kind of where they're going, but I know they're looking at trying to get some more hard numbers of the public visiting the Madison and using it. And then they are looking at capping the number of guide trips that ultimately we can do on the Madison. And it's nothing new in Montana in a sense. I mean, there's six other rivers in the state that have a recreation management plan one way or another. And they've already said, Fish Wild and Parks in Montana has said that more rivers are going to be included in those programs. So it's happening, but ultimately protection of the resource should be everyone's goal so that we can all still enjoy it and have a memorable experience in a positive way.

**Marvin Cash (42:21):** Yeah it's interesting I mean it's you know I've been incredibly lucky to probably almost every year for probably almost the last 15 years to go out and spend one or two weeks out in Montana and it's it's definitely getting loved to death that's for sure.

**Alice Owsley (42:36):** Right and I don't want to see the death part you know just you know people cleaning up after themselves trying to leave the place as nice as they found it I think is important and just treating the environment and each other with respect is probably the best way we can move forward in some of these situations.

**Marvin Cash (42:59):** Yeah it's interesting too I mean the traffic I mean to me one of the amazing things I remember the first few times I went out I was like you know floating those rivers you know there are no roads there are no power lines it's exactly the way it looked when Lewis and Clark went through. And I can remember the last fall I was out, I think, you know, late in the season, like late September, there were probably, you know, 20 boats getting put in right above Kelly's place on the Madison. I was like, Holy moly, you know, I mean, wasn't July wasn't, you know, salmon fly hatch. I mean, that was a lot of boat traffic.

**Alice Owsley (43:31):** Right. Yeah. September used to always be the secret air quotes, secret season where the kids were back in school everybody was back you know they'd had their family vacation and the only folks that you typically saw in September were the retirees and I think the word is clearly out that September can be if you can handle the temperature changes that we could experience during that month, you can have some pretty phenomenal experiences and we also know the reality of there's more and more folks that are more mobile as far as work and whatever they have going on in their lives that they can come out at a time that was perceived to be a little bit quieter so I think the secret's out on September but yeah the you know there's there's no doubt that there could be 20 boats that could put in in a place one of the boat ramps on the Madison and the Madison is the most fished river in Montana and Lyon's Bridge is one of the most popular boat ramps. But as a defense, I will say that not all those boats were going the same direction or going the same to the same takeout. They weren't all going at the same pace. And so I think for most of us that fish the Madison on a regular basis, we certainly hear the reactions to what appears to be very busy days on the river. And then we have to say, yeah, but there's basically eight different floats that can occur in and out of one of these boat ramps as far as length of day or what somebody's objective is for the day. If they're floating, wading, they're doing a short float, a long float. So we tend to spread ourselves out on those days, especially those of us who are regularly floating the Madison. We don't want to be in a line of boats. That's not ideal for my rowing nor getting you into fish. So we try to try to mix it up as best we can.

**Marvin Cash (45:34):** Yeah. And even though, you know, as you say, people maybe discovered September, you know, you have a relatively short guide season in Montana compared to other parts of the country. And, you know, you mentioned being a snow coach guide, but what are some of the things that you do in the off season when you're not guiding?

**Alice Owsley (45:52):** Fishing for myself around here. So Yellowstone is usually open until the first Sunday in November. So there's some fishing opportunities there, especially because some fishing returns to this west side of the park on the Firehole, Madison and Gibbon rivers. My husband and I try to get away and do some bird hunting, either locally with our two wire hairs or traveling to a little bit lower elevation and enjoying some more mild weather. I, in past years, have enjoyed steelhead fishing in the Columbia River drainage, but certainly have been kind of giving those fish a break here in the last few years and trying to manage that time on the water differently. And if I can get some saltwater fishing in either in the fall or in the spring, that's awesome. And I've been lucky enough to be able to go down to Florida quite a bit and then do some travel into Belize and Bahamas areas. And then we started fishing for redfish in the New Orleans area. And I have been hosting trips, a few trips down there recently. So that's gotten us out of this area when the weather really stinks. Once the park is closed in November, we're starting to get some snow. The days are kind of drizzly and cold and of course getting shorter. It's nice to get out of here and go see maybe some sunshine but check out a different fishery and then you know we still get snow into April so once my snow coach season is over I do some cross-country skiing some downhill skiing in the area try to get outside, enjoy where I live.

**Marvin Cash (47:40):** Yeah. And then you also, I mean, you know, you do the show circuit and I also know that you, you know, have numerous teaching opportunities across the country.

**Alice Owsley (47:51):** Yes. Oh, I forgot about my travel schedule. So I have attended several fly fishing shows, East coast and in the West, during the winter season or even my off season to give presentations and also quite a bit of teaching with teaching casting lessons at the fishing shows or to specific clubs and some instruction with I in the past have run my own fly fishing schools and then I recently started working with the Anglers Academy which John Hudgens is running and that is a little out of the normal season as far as to get started in the spring here in early May with his first program so that is an opportunity for teaching fly fishing.

**Marvin Cash (48:45):** Very cool and you know I guess I you know we all we all heard about it and I know there was an article about it recently in Fly Fisherman magazine but you know any updates on the kind of what people are seeing in terms of fishery recovery on the Madison from the dam failure and the dewatering that happened I don't know it hasn't quite been a year ago.

**Alice Owsley (49:06):** No it was I don't remember the exact date but it was in November late November of 2021 and yeah there was a failure of Hebgen Dam which stopped the water going down the Madison other than a small trickle. So it was only a few hundred cubic feet per second of water coming below Hebgen. And quite a bit of fish recovery was done. Thank you to all of the people who love trout in Southwest Montana who, you know, left their offices and whatever they were doing to come down and get fish out of those shallow side channels where they were trapped and get them into that deep water. I think that definitely helps. As far as long-term effect, I don't know, and I'm not sure that anybody knows quite yet. I think there will be some certainly anecdotal observations, for sure, this next summer. And hopefully, Fish, Wildlife and Parks will weigh in with maybe some research or some sampling that they've done to let us know. I think it's too early to tell right now. The challenge was, that was obviously during brown trout spawn. And this spring, we have about an average 80% snowpack. And so we certainly had higher recently with over 100%. So I think we've got a couple factors that are going to challenge us in the next couple years with our fish populations. I will say to that that when the dam failed on Hebgen in 2008, and then the next nine years that it took before they got it fixed, we dealt with warm water from off the top of the dam. We dealt with all sorts of water changes throughout the year of flows being very irregular. And our Madison trout have been pretty hardy. They've dealt with some challenges over the years. So it might be in their DNA to be fighters. So hopefully this is just a blip in the system and the cycle continues. I'm an optimist so my fingers are crossed that we're not going to see a major effect on that.

**Marvin Cash (51:21):** Yeah let's certainly hope so and you mentioned that you don't have any kind of insights into how the whole process was going to shake out but you know what is kind of the timeline for putting the management plan on the Madison River you know when do they want to be done and so folks will have a little bit better idea about because I guess it breaks down into like wade fishing, not wade fishing, local people, not local people.

**Alice Owsley (51:42):** Yeah, I don't, I'm not sure that a plan is going to include kind of those last two points that you mentioned, because right now there are sections in the upper part of the Madison and down low by Ennis that are closed to fishing out of a boat. So it's wade fishing only. And then the bulk of the river in the middle, it's still float sections where you can fish out of the boat. And those go through a long stretches of private land. And so part of that is that's how you get to the water. Whereas some of those wade stretches, there's a lot more accessibility to the public for wade fishing up and downstream and those fishing access sites. Taking into account, of course, our stream access law in Montana, which is awesome and a great example of, in my opinion, how the system should work. So I don't know that some of those regulations will with these recreation management tools. What they're looking at is probably reducing, well, they're looking at limiting the number of guided trips that an outfitter can have on the Madison. And the next Fish and Wildlife and Parks Commission meeting is in June. And their goal is to get that information out to us as the outfitters and the public so that this could be implemented in January of 2023. So we are looking at some changes going into next year. I also think there's going to be some assessment of how the system is working and looking at what's going on, some feedback, some coming back to the table and working on some things. They're also taking into consideration the public's use on the river and those numbers. And I don't think, from what I've observed going to meetings, reading the emails, trying to keep up on the subject, I don't think that there's going to be any changes in the public's access to the Madison currently, but instead ways that they can start to learn some scientific results of observations, you know, not observations, but just getting some hard facts on the public use of the Madison and being able to incorporate that into this management plan. The Madison is a unique river. It's not actually very big and it's certainly not very wide. And so in my opinion, there's not a one size fits all management plan that works for all these different rivers and so taking in how it's done on other rivers of Montana doesn't necessarily apply to the Madison you can't just put the same template on it and it it's just because the fact of the river of where it is of the access points of the land around the access points who manages it I would almost suggest to say that it's just the culture you know the culture if you will of the Bitterroot is different than the Madison is different than the Missouri is different than the Yellowstone, which is a challenge for the people who are tasked with managing our resources and managing the public use of our resources, but it's unique. That's why we all like to come here.

**Marvin Cash (55:04):** There you go. And, you know, Alice, before I let you go tonight, is there anything that I've left out that you want to share with our listeners?

**Alice Owsley (55:13):** Oh my gosh. I feel like I've rambled on about all sorts of things. But I guess one of the things that I would say is that one of the beauties of this area is that in almost every direction you drive on any one of these roads, you're headed to a trout destination. You know, there is bodies of water that have fish in them. So if you're used to visiting this part of the world, and maybe you've been fishing the same area for four or five years or coming at the same time, I would challenge you to go do some exploring. Maybe get a mile away from your car and do some hiking or check out different rivers or creeks or lakes or challenge yourself to do something different. Not because I don't want you to go experience what you've been enjoying, but there's just so much opportunity in this part of the world to go do different things. And I think that's a beauty for sure of this part of Montana Idaho Wyoming.

**Marvin Cash (56:15):** Yeah it's definitely one of my favorite places on the planet and Alice before I let you hop you want to let folks know kind of the best way for folks to follow your fishing adventures and to book a day with you on the water?

**Alice Owsley (56:24):** Absolutely thank you Marvin my website is riversideanglers.com I have a Facebook page and Instagram. I tend to post some more, you know, snapshots of where I'm fishing and what's going on in my life on Instagram. But you can certainly visit my website, send me a message through that contact us or give me a call. My phone number is also on there. And we'll try to get you a day in the books. And I'll just say that 2022 is looking pretty busy. So if you're thinking about 2023, it's not too early to be talking about those things.

**Marvin Cash (57:04):** Absolutely. I was going to say, you probably have very few days left this year.

**Alice Owsley (57:09):** That is correct.

**Marvin Cash (57:10):** Yeah. Well, that's a great problem to have, right?

**Alice Owsley (57:13):** It is. I'm not complaining. I mean, I have to think back to when I was in college, dreaming up this idea of a fly fishing program and thinking, how in the world am I going to make this happen? And then when I decided to leave a perfectly good guide job where I had all the trips I needed for a season and a nice roster of return clients to then say, well, I'm going to go start a business from the beginning. So this is a place that I dreamed of being, of being a busy fishing guide. So I do have to have some appreciation for not just the hard work that got me here, that I'm actually here.

**Marvin Cash (57:46):** And before I forget, too, you might want to let folks know that in addition to having your outfitting business, that you also have some rental property. So if they need a place to stay, you might have space.

**Alice Owsley (57:57):** That is true. The Madison Anglers House, which you can check that out online or book it through Rome Property Management, is a great house. It's a mile away from the Madison River on 287, just up from the Raynolds Pass fishing access site. And it's set up for anglers. You can have a group of 8 to 10 folks. We've got places for you to hang your waders for them to dry, spots where if you come in from fishing late at night, you can just hang your rod up all rigged up on the wall so you're ready to go for the next day. Plenty of places to haul in your cooler and your gear and relax. Maybe start a fire in the wood stove if it's a chilly night and get all rested up and geared up for the next day of fishing. Yeah, it sounds horrible. I know, it's terrible, isn't it?

**Marvin Cash (58:45):** Well, Alice, I really appreciate you taking some time to chat with me this evening.

**Alice Owsley (58:50):** Well, Marvin, I appreciate you having me on your podcast. And it's been great to visit with you and kind of think back to times in Western North Carolina and this whole journey that I've been on. So thanks again for your podcast and taking the time to get to know my guide business out here in West Yellowstone.

**Marvin Cash (59:12):** Yeah, absolutely. And our paths may cross this fall. You never know.

**Alice Owsley (59:15):** Oh, yeah. Let me know when you're headed this direction.

**Marvin Cash (59:18):** Will do. Have a great evening.

**Alice Owsley (59:20):** Thanks Marvin.

**Marvin Cash (59:22):** Well folks I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you again if you like the podcast please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice tight lines everybody.