S5, Ep 111: Gustavo Hiebaum of SET Fly Fishing

**Marvin Cash (00:00:04):**
Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. On this episode, I'm joined by my old friend Gustavo Hiebaum of SET Fly Fishing. Gustavo shares his passion for Argentinian fly angling, how he and his team built one of the best outfitters in South America, and we take a deep dive into all things Golden Dorado. If you've ever wondered about chasing Golden Dorado on the fly, we have you covered.

But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out. And I'm excited to bring the business and consulting skills I've developed off of the water to The Articulate Fly community. If you're in the industry and feel like you're leaving money on the table, or the day-to-day grind of running a business is killing you, let me help you find a more profitable and enjoyable path in the sport. Head over to www.thearticulatefly.com/consulting, and let's start our conversation today. Now, on to our interview.

So, Gustavo, welcome to The Articulate Fly.

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:01:12):**
Well, Marvin, thanks for having me, and thanks to all the folks listening. It's a pleasure for me to have this chance of talking fly fishing.

**Marvin Cash (00:01:22):**
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. We have a tradition on The Articulate Fly — I would like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:01:30):**
Well, that goes way back early. I mean, really, before actual fishing, I was here in my — not now my hometown, but on vacation. Back then I was only seven years old, standing in front of a store, and I was begging my father to buy me some fishing gear. The curious thing is, I really don't know where I got the fishing bug from. My father was not an angler — he never has been. I tried in later years to introduce him, but anyway.

I had that desire of getting myself into fishing and connecting with nature. So we were here in San Martín on a family vacation. I really begged my father to get that gear for me — only seven years old. Long story short, a week later, during a several-week vacation in the Lake District in northern Patagonia, I was sitting on a dock at Lake Nahuel Huapi in the town of Villa la Angostura, which is only a couple of hours south of San Martín. I was sitting on this dock, and there were these big, gigantic silver rainbows that always cruised underneath it. There still are today — you can see these fish, probably all rainbows ranging five to six pounds, and there were like half a dozen of them just cruising in the deep water.

I had gotten, as a gift from friends of my father, a couple of flies. I remember it was a big Clouser Nymph, and I really had a spinning setup to cast with my little rod that I got there. And I decided I'm going to let this nymph go down. I didn't know it was a nymph back then — it was just the fly I'd been gifted before my vacation. And I put it down, and I kind of jiggled it 10 feet deep until finally one of these monster rainbows took my fly and pulled all the line out of this reel. It was a plastic reel, one of those cheap combos — we're talking 35 or 38 years ago. The reel got destroyed, the fish broke off, and that was it. I was hooked for the rest of my life.

**Marvin Cash (00:00:00):**
Yeah, that's very neat. So when did you kind of start fly fishing full-time?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:00:00):**
Well, that was seven, and then we continued. After that, my father got kind of momentarily into fishing because he watched me so excited, so he got into it a little bit and came with me. We got a little fancier gear and came back for like a couple more years, three years, doing some spinning gear with spoons and trying to catch some trout. But as soon as I started that, I began to see more and more — here and there, scattered — because back then there were not a lot of fly fishermen in Argentina. But I started seeing just enough of them to get me really, really triggered and interested. That's what I want to do.

So the same guy who originally gave me that fly I caught that fish on — he helped my father find me my first fly fishing gear. Again, not a lot was available, and not many people knew much about fly fishing in Argentina back then. But sure enough, we got into a little tackle shop that had the basics of some fly fishing, and I got me a rod, a reel. The guy — and we're still in touch; back then he was a young guy in his early 20s — he took me to the park in my hometown of Bahia Blanca on the Atlantic coast outside of Buenos Aires province. He got me a couple of hours of casting structure and instructions, and I was launched into fly fishing.

My next vacation down to Patagonia — I was only 10 years old — I spent every single daylight hour of my vacation with the family trying to get a few fish on the fly. So that's kind of where it started.

**Marvin Cash (00:06:10):**
Yeah, that's neat. And obviously it's kind of consumed you at this point. When did you kind of get the guide bug and decide that you really

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:06:21):**
wanted to become a fishing guide? Well, that drug from the first experience I just told you just kept on growing, significantly. I was a teenager and I could only think about fishing when I was spending my days in school in my hometown on the Atlantic coast. I could only count down the days — typically the first week in December when the summer break starts. We came with family for two or three weeks, still typically until Christmas or New Year's, and we spent almost the whole month of December in the area here, exploring and camping.

By that time I knew I wanted to do something that would allow me to live fishing as much as possible, to be on the water as much as possible. And I saw that there were people dedicated to taking other people fishing — guiding. It was kind of a starting-to-grow thing. So I was probably 15 or 16 when I said to myself, I want to spend my life taking people fishing. I don't know how it's going to work, but I want to find out. That was a self-inspiration born from my desire to stay near the water, that early in life.

**Marvin Cash (00:07:46):**
Yeah. And how did you break into the guide game? You're 15, 16 years old, you're like, I want to do this — how did you get your first job?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:07:56):**
Well, it's another interesting story, and it kind of goes together with the early stages of what the company is. As soon as I got off high school — I was in college — I had enough time in the summer break to continue coming to the area. I wanted to get a job as a guide for that summer break. I went and knocked on a lot of doors and talked to a lot of people.

The truth is, the industry of fly fishing, guiding, and especially international travel destinations — back then, the market of local anglers who would hire a guide was almost nonexistent. The only alternative to guiding was serving people coming to Argentina in search of the trip of a lifetime. I wasn't really getting any opportunities. It was a way smaller industry than what it is today.

So I told myself, OK, I want to be a guide seriously for my life. So I said, I'm going to start getting my own clients, so I'm going to be able to guide. And that's kind of the beginning of everything. My first days of a guiding career were already the early stages of what we do right now — getting my own clients and trying to set up trips for people coming internationally to Argentina for fly fishing.

**Marvin Cash (00:09:25):**
Yeah, that's neat. So you basically had to build your own job, right?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:09:31):**
I created that job for myself because there just wasn't the opportunity out there. It's so different today. The kids who get into it now have all the information available; they can learn as quickly as they want, and early in life they get guiding opportunities and can have a great job very young. It was way different back then. It took me a long time to build up enough days to have enough clients to be guiding for long stretches at a time.

**Marvin Cash (00:10:11):**
Yeah, and interesting too — it sounds like it's not like people here in the States who maybe go out to Wyoming or Montana or Colorado and have all these people showing them the ropes. It sounds like you kind of had to teach yourself how to be a guide.

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:10:27):**
Well, yeah, there were not a lot of people doing it here, and it was certainly a lot more unprofessional scene than what it is today. The truth is, when I got the first clients and I wanted to take them fishing, I really didn't have any formal training in how to do that. It was just a long, long road of learning from your own experience and listening to a lot of my clients to see how things were supposed to look, or what service was expected for an angler coming for an outing.

So yeah, it was a long learning curve — a company with a lot of desire to do it right, which was a big motivation. Later on, I was so fortunate that I started to receive really professional guides, and I was able to watch what they did and start learning from them how a professional guide should work, what's expected. A lot of listening, a lot of desire to do it for life.

And then a team, too — because soon enough, since we were working with groups of people coming, I started with other fellows. Some of them are still part of the business, and we kind of built knowledge together. But basically, a lot of listening to our own clients.

**Marvin Cash (00:12:18):**
Yeah, very neat. You were saying someone who's still with you — I think Gonzalo. I fished with him. Gosh, it's been more than 15 years ago.

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:12:28):**
Yeah, exactly. Well, Gonzalo is just about to turn 40 years old, and he started with me in the company when he was 21. So it's been like 19 years of working together. I was in my mid-20s when I met him. He's kind of a living history of what the company has been, and he's like a younger brother to me.

**Marvin Cash (00:12:53):**
Yeah, that's very, very neat. And so with all this knowledge you gained from doing all these trips and learning from your guests — what do you think the secret is to being a good guide?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:13:04):**
Well, I still repeat this to my team all the time. When I interview a candidate to become a guide, first thing: you've got to love being out there in nature, in the river, in the water — just to plain love fishing as your passion. And then second, but equally as important: you've got to love people. You've got to enjoy seeing people achieve progress, or learn something new, a new trick, or get their first fish on a dry fly. If seeing that for the first time doesn't make you feel like you're doing it yourself for the first time, you're in the wrong business.

Those two things together are what make you guide for many years, and it's not just a show that eventually burns you out. The passion and enjoyment — fishing through the arms of your client. If you don't have that feeling, you can do it very professionally, but it's always going to be a level apart from guides who truly live it. The guys who do it as a job, right?

**Marvin Cash (00:14:36):**
Yeah, and you can always tell when you fish with those people too. You can always tell the difference.

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:14:42):**
Yeah. I always tell my guys: you really want to have more desire to catch that fish than your own client. If a guy is looking at the clock waiting for the day to finish instead of telling the client, "One more cast in that pool," something's wrong. And it doesn't have to be that serious either — I tell my guys all the time, if there's no laughter on the boat next to me, something's wrong on that boat.

It's all about having fun and keeping focus on that. Everyone finds the happiness of a fishing outing in a different way — and that's our job as a guide: to find out what's going to make our client happy, to really deliver and be a facilitator of a good day on the water.

**Marvin Cash (00:15:47):**
Yeah, absolutely. And Gustavo, what do you think is the biggest misconception people have about the life of a fishing guide?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:15:54):**
Well, people would say, wow, how beautiful your office is — you truly don't have any concerns in life because you're doing what you love. But like any job, it has its ups and downs, and you get all kinds of people. Thanks to that, we're fortunate to make a lot of friends out of this. I've met some fabulous people — but some days are long. Some days you've got to put up with bad weather.

Here in Argentina, because we serve an international travel destination, people come Saturday to Saturday. You start guiding on Sunday, fish through Friday, then it's a day off. And Sunday you get another full gang of guests ready to roll again, all rested. This goes on for like six or seven months. So it can be tiring. But if you have the passion, it is a great life. We have guys on the team in their mid-50s who have been at it for 30 years and are still passionate about it. You've got to find the good balance — space out your season and don't overdo it so you can still enjoy it day by day.

**Marvin Cash (00:17:30):**
Yeah, absolutely. And so after you started guiding, when did you start Andes Drifters?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:17:40):**
Well, as I told you, my first guiding clients were already in the beginnings of the company. We were originally under a different name. Not until around 2009, when I met Kevin Howell a couple of years before that, did I make a proposal to Kevin to become partners. Together, we brought up the name of Andes Drifters and started with the continuation of an operation that had originally started in 1999. So we were already 10 years into our history when we started Andes Drifters as a continuation of that original company and those early guiding days.

**Marvin Cash (00:18:36):**
Yeah, that's neat. It reminds me — I'm going to have to go grab the fishing hat to get the original name of the company. It's been so long. I had forgotten that Andes Drifters was the second iteration of your company.

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:18:47):**
Yeah. The original name of the company was Southern Cross Outfitters when we started, right? In '99.

**Marvin Cash (00:18:53):**
Yeah, it's all coming back to me now — everything, booking the tickets and everything. And so for people who have never been to Patagonia, do you want to kind of give them a feeling for how the trout fishing is different from, say, fishing here in

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:19:05):**
the United States — Montana or Wyoming? Well, it's a phrase I've heard since I was a kid, but I still believe it's a fact: many people have said through the years that Patagonia — especially northern Patagonia — is very much like Montana was 50 or 100 years ago. It's a lot of great water, great dry fly fishing, sight-fishing opportunities, and plenty of only wild trout that populate all our rivers. Big rivers you can float, small pocket water, medium-sized rivers — great lakes, spring creeks — so a lot of variety of water, but way fewer people around here.

Even with the continued growth in the number of anglers over the last 30 years, compared to the western United States, we still get into a day float section on one of our famous and easy-access rivers like the Chimehuin, the Alumiñé, or the Collon-cura and still get upset when there are a couple more boats putting in on the same stretch we're going to float. That just sets the standard — that even in the most famous areas around San Martín, the most popular fly fishing area in Argentina, the presence of people and the development of the area is still a lot behind the standards of many places in the United States.

**Marvin Cash (00:20:49):**
Yeah, it's funny you say that. While you were saying that, I was going through my head the shuttles on the Madison — talking to the shuttle drivers about how many shuttles they would run on a busy weekend. I'm talking like 60 or 80 shuttles. Although I will say, I've probably had my fishing license checked more that time I was fishing with you guys in Argentina than in my entire fishing career.

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:21:11):**
Yeah, our fishing rangers are typically active — checking on people, going around. We're kind of proud of the way the fisheries are protected here. Sometimes they do an important job.

**Marvin Cash (00:21:30):**
Yeah. And so we'll get to SET in a minute. But Andes Drifters was around for about 15 years — why don't you let folks know how it evolved over that time period?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:21:43):**
Well, it's a long process. From the original company to Andes Drifters, we were basically an outfitter that was a guiding service. We prepared three itineraries to cover different fishery areas with different fishing styles and different parts of the season, making packages that included everything — lodging, meals, fishing licenses, even supplying gear when needed. But as the years went on, we found the need to control more of everything involved in the process. So we incorporated the lodging portion and started managing our own lodges.

With the experience of knowing all the area here in northern Patagonia in very deep detail, we selected locations for our lodges where each location was chosen to deliver a unique experience within a week-long program. Today we run three different lodges in the Neuquén province in northern Patagonia, and each one is located to serve a unique set of fisheries that compounds a whole different experience from each other. If you could do three different trips through each one of these lodges, you would be fishing absolutely different waters, different fishing styles, different techniques — a whole different experience — even though all three are located in northern Patagonia.

Then — back actually a year after we started Andes Drifters with Kevin — we went on a big exploratory trip in Argentina for Golden Dorado. I've loved Golden Dorado since I was probably 17 years old, when I had my first Golden Dorado experience. Since the early days of guiding for trout, I thought people coming to Argentina had to get into Dorado fishing — it's just such a unique fish. So back in 2009, we did this tour fishing for Golden Dorado in several different locations, and we met who our partner is right now, Andrés Martínez, who runs the Golden Dorado operation of the company.

We incorporated another full portion of operation — a whole different team, a whole different set of guides who specialize in Golden Dorado fishing. Now, up in the northeastern part of Argentina in the Corrientes province, we run three different lodges with the same concept: properties positioned specifically for a unique experience in each of the different fisheries they're located near.

**Marvin Cash (00:25:23):**
Yeah, very, very neat. And so, you know, you did that exploratory trip in the late 2000s — what made you decide, within the last year or so,

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:25:29):**
that you wanted to merge with Paraná on the Fly? Well, really, when we met our partners, it was kind of a very spontaneous buildup. When we met them, they were guiding near their hometown near Rosario, much closer to Buenos Aires. It was a one-day outing we did with them — after fishing with three different Golden Dorado operations that we really didn't like, or really, the people we met were not the match that Kevin and I were looking for to partner with and run an operation.

Then we really connected with Marcelo Caligaris, who for years had been partnered with Andrés. Talking with him, he said, "I fish a lot in the Corrientes province and up there in what we call the upper Paraná River. And that water is home to the largest Golden Dorados anywhere." So we said, OK, you're the kind of person we want to partner with. We talked that early year, but it didn't work out for three or four years due to personal commitments they had. Then Marcelo met Andrés, they partnered together, and back in 2012 we were ready to launch our first lodge in what is today Itatí Lodge in the upper Paraná.

We kind of grew together. They put their name to the company running the Golden Dorado operation — it was Paraná on the Fly. As things continued to grow, we were working as a unit: we were in charge of letting international anglers know about the program, and they were setting up the property up at Itatí Lodge. We were really working as a unity for years, but with two different names. It was very confusing for people to know how Andes Drifters related to Paraná on the Fly, and how to communicate the uniqueness of running all these programs under two different names.

We talked about this for several years. When the pandemic hit and we were in the middle of lockdown — or right a week after we were locked down here in Argentina — we started brainstorming on what the new name of the company would be, Igarabay, because we needed an umbrella brand, a company name that represented all we do and brought us together. It was really a continuation of what we had been doing for the previous years. And that's where we decided to create SET Fly Fishing, what the company is today.

**Marvin Cash (00:28:35):**
Yeah, very neat. And so it's interesting — we talked a little bit about this when we did the prep for the interview — but I was really curious if you wanted to share with folks why you think Dorado has become such a popular species for anglers to target on the fly.

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:28:53):**
Well, I got really, really triggered and fell in love with Dorado when I was almost a teenager — 17 years old. Dorado is such a unique species. I tell people: imagine a fish geared up in its jaws with the power of a shark and the speed of striking that only a barracuda can deliver. The Dorado — you see the big head and big jaws. They are designed to eat sábalo, their main prey. Sábalo is a vegetarian fish that eats algae and debris from the bottom of all the fisheries where Dorado live. And sábalo is not just a fry or a small prey fish — it's a prey for Dorado, but they get up to four, five, six pounds. So they're a big fish.

The Dorado can get into a sábalo that is five or six pounds and trim it in half in a couple of seconds. You actually sometimes see them hunting in teams, schooling up on sábalos, two Dorados ripping a fish apart in half, blood in the water. And when they decide to strike, they are so in charge — they're the apex predator in the system — that sometimes they eat each other, or a juvenile or smaller version of themselves. It commonly happens that you're hooked to a five, six-pound Dorado and another fish of 20 or 25 pounds comes and eats the Dorado you have on in half. That's how in charge they are on that system.

And the way they take the fly — I tell people, the Dorado is not super technically demanding, but it's mentally demanding. It's a game of focus. Every strip you're going to take and pull your line, you've got to be focused when you move your hand to grab the next chunk of line to strip in, because they are going to come like a golden lightning bolt. We fish 95% on floating line, and you see the fish coming from an ambushing, hiding position — it's just a golden flash that grabs your line and takes it right out of your hand. So every strip, you've got to keep on focus, and it's going to happen when you're not expecting it. Keep your rod low because it's a strip set. It's very much like a saltwater fish, even when it's a freshwater species in a freshwater river system. It's really indescribable — just comparable to nothing else.

Yeah, it's an addictive game. I always warn people: the problem with Dorado is that once you try it, you're going to fish it for many, many trips. So if you're not willing to do that, don't even come try it.

**Marvin Cash (00:32:07):**
And so if you're trying to basically imitate a four to six-pound baitfish, what do the tackle and tactics look like when you target Dorado?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:32:17):**
Well, how are you going to imitate a six-pound fish? There's no way. I like to start describing the Dorado by its feeding behavior, because that kind of sets Dorado apart as a species. It's not an easy fish to catch, especially when you're going into sizes over 8 or 10 pounds. An 8 or 10-pound fish is when it's a rather large adult. When they're juvenile or a smaller size — 2 to 4 pounds — they need to feed more aggressively and continuously than a trout or a rainbow would. They're eating all the time. When they get bigger, as they are such an in-charge apex predator, they will only feed in certain windows — when the conditions are right to eat big and go home. That's why you need a lot of focus when fishing for Golden Dorado.

Basically, the gear you use is an 8-weight, because the fish are ambushing and hiding in structure. Even in some of the environments we fish, where the water is crystal clear, you do not see the fish until it's in attacking mode — whether coming for your fly or hunting for natural prey. They're going to be blended into structure and just come out. That nature of the fishing situation means you're casting a lot. We only use an 8-weight. We don't go to anything bigger than an 8-weight — unlike saltwater flats fishing where you're casting only at fish you can see, here you're casting a lot. You're going to have a big fly with a big profile, but as light as possible, because you're going to be casting a lot and you want to conserve your shoulder throughout the day.

So eight weight and a floating line. The most famous Golden Dorado fly is called the Andino Deceiver. The typical Andino Deceiver was designed for fishing the lower sections of the Paraná where the water is dirtier than any of the fisheries we fish. So that original Andino Deceiver has a very thick collar of a Muddler head with a lead eye.

For the way we like to build our Andino Deceivers, you start with a big hook. Typically our favorite hook is a Gamakatsu SL-12 in 4/0 and 6/0 — big hooks to give good action to the fly. Then there are long saddle feathers, a little bit of bucktail and a little bit of peacock herl, a little bit of bright material — one or the other. Then you build that bullet head, but basically it's a very sparse collar over a set of chain eyes. Very, very light — no added weight; it's heavy from the big hook and a little bit balanced on the head from those chain eyes. That is the typical Deceiver we use. Typically up to six or eight inches long — a long fly, but easy to cast, loads very little water. We don't use those typical big musky streamers that load a lot of water because we're going to be casting a lot.

We also use in some fisheries a lot of surface patterns — like mice imitations, large Crease Flies, or T-Blocks with foam heads that kind of pop or give a wake on the surface of the water. That's the basic gear in terms of flies and rods. You use a tropical line because it's a tropical environment — a tropical 8-weight. Today there are very good designs of specific fly lines that have enough of the weight-forward torpedo shape to really help turn over the big flies. The different brands have come out with special Shangri-O or Dorado version lines specifically designed for these big flies. But any kind of a powerful weight-forward, torpedo-style, saltwater-style line will do the work.

**Marvin Cash (00:37:16):**
Got it. And you made it really clear we're going to be casting a lot. But what does a typical day fishing for Dorado with SET look like?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:37:26):**
Well, as I was telling you, we have three different locations we fish for Dorado, and the type of fishing and technique we use in each destination kind of sets the daily standard. At Itatí Lodge on the big river, where we fish for some of the really biggest Dorados on earth, we're only about 30 yards from the dock to the rooms at the lodge. You walk, get into the boat, and in five to 15 minutes — depending on where you're going — you're right into fishing. Very easy commute to get actually fishing.

There we fish very early in the morning — into the water with the very first light of day already in a fishing situation. Then we come back for lunch and have a break at noon with the air conditioning, because it's a tropical environment. Then rest up with full energy for the sunset time. Especially in this fishery where we're targeting really huge Dorados, the beginning and end of the day are the best moments when these monster fish are likely to be active.

When we go to the Iberá wetlands — we were fortunate in 2018 to be selected by the Argentine government, really the provincial government of Corrientes, to be the sole outfitter operating on the vast water system of the land that Douglas Tompkins, the founder of The North Face, donated through his foundation and rewilding project to the government to create a national park. We were selected to be the outfitter working there as the only operation on this huge water system. There you access a very integrated set of channels and lagoons, going deeper and deeper into the system. We go out for a full-day outing, leaving in the morning around 8:30 from the lodge, and actually we have established camps and cabins built inside the reserve. So you go out for two or three days of fishing, overnighting inside in the deep wilderness with no human presence. Very different from one destination to the other.

This past year we also have a third destination at JeTú Cabaña de Esteros, which is another wetland system — a spillover ramification of the Middle Paraná River section. It's over 100 miles of water filtered into this floodplain area called the Ysoro wetlands. We have located JeTú Cabaña de Esteros right in the heart of the Ysoro wetland, which by nature is a big nursery area for Dorado.

Let me pause here and tell you a little bit about the Dorado spawning system, because it will make this all make sense. Up at Itatí Lodge, the first destination I mentioned, it's the area where a big migration of Dorados coming from the upper Paraná system arrives in late spring and early summer for the spawn season. But the spawning is only successful when there is flooding or really high water levels.

The Dorado migrates and accumulates — but first, before the Dorado, it's the sábalo that accumulates and comes together in the middle of the river. The sábalo starts spawning. The way they spawn: on the middle of the river in the current, the female sábalo gets kind of belly-up and swims in circles, making a very low noise — like croaking frogs, but lower. The males are crossing their bellies against hers to stimulate the spawning. We've seen this happening in concentrations that are just phenomenal — millions and millions of individuals. We've seen this sábalo spawning happening over like two miles of river length, probably over half a mile wide. The Paraná is the fourth-largest river flow in the entire world — it's twice the size of the Mississippi; across sometimes four miles wide. So it's a huge mass of fish spawning in the middle of the river.

After we've seen this happening for a day, the Dorados start spawning on the perimeter of that, sort of the same deal. The female Dorado comes out of the water like a whale — the really big, big Dorados are females, and the males are smaller. These female Dorados are coming out of the water, and you see two or three big males rubbing their bellies against hers to stimulate that spawning. And it's funny, because while the sábalo is their primary food, when this is happening, you don't see Dorados crashing into sábalos. They're so vulnerable in that situation — it's as if something sacred is happening and they respect each other.

The biological reason is that the Dorado eggs are released and inseminated in the middle of the river, but they need that flood level of water because they need to drift into the floodplains where they're going to hatch and be able to survive. Instead of having a spawning bed, they have to drift out to the flooded areas at the sides of the main river to survive.

The curiosity is that the Dorado, when the egg hatches, the fry has a yolk sac — like the trout has it. In trout, the yolk sac lasts for about 48 days of nutrition. In Dorado, it's 48 hours. So they need to be quickly into these floodplain areas, where they're going to start eating larvae and bugs and small organisms. But as early as two or three weeks old, they're going to start eating on sábalo fry, because the sábalo is spawning at the same time. As early as two weeks, sábalo becomes their main food.

So coming back to the story — the Ysoro wetlands, our third lodge, is one of these floodplains, this big marsh area. It is a natural nursery for Dorado. It has enormous numbers of Dorados growing from two to five, six, seven pounds. And that makes JeTú Cabaña de Esteros the ideal destination for those breaking into Golden Dorado fishing — to get into numbers and get trained with that strip set. So every one of our destinations is a completely different environment, and the fishing in each is achieved with a very different technique and a whole different experience.

Because of the sometimes unpredictable or changeable conditions of the fishery, and because of the behavior of the fish moving into different locations in the river system, making them sometimes more or less available for fly fishing, we've decided to design our week of fishing split between two of the three destinations. We split the week — three days at one lodge and three days at the other — and we make the call before the trip on which combination to fish to hit the best conditions. That's the uniqueness of our program. There really hasn't been another Golden Dorado program on the market with that degree of flexibility to chase what's actually fishing best for the available conditions of the region.

**Marvin Cash (00:47:10):**
Really interesting. And do you predominantly fish to structure, or are there sight-fishing opportunities as well?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:47:17):**
Well, again, the sight-fishing opportunities for Dorado come when the fish are currently attacking or going after prey. But in many cases — before that happens, when they're waiting for the opportunity — they're ambushing and hiding. So you're fishing structure because of the nature of how they feed. It's very occasional that you can sight-fish to a fish that you can see in a hunting mode or crashing baitfish.

**Marvin Cash (00:47:48):**
Got it. And I know Dorado kind of spread across South America and Central America — how is Dorado fishing in Argentina different from other countries?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:47:59):**
Well, it's determined by the morphology and structure of the rivers. The other big destination today for Golden Dorado fishing is Bolivia, and the streams in the Shangó region. Those Dorado streams in Bolivia attract so many people because the environments are so beautiful — and they remind a big percentage of fly fishers of a trout stream. Everyone in fly fishing, really, has started as a trout angler. And some of those Dorado streams in Bolivia really look like beautiful trout streams.

But the behavior of the fish and the fishing style has nothing to do with trout fishing — they are the apex predator. Everything I described before applies to the smaller stream. The Dorado — being that apex predator — is a very sensitive fish that can perceive anything on a stream. When you translate that into a small, trout-sized stream, it makes the fishing in those pristine, clear streams extremely difficult. The movement of even a smaller baitfish or a school of sábalos makes the fish feel your presence through the disturbance you're creating in the environment. That makes the fishing even more challenging in the smaller streams.

Also, the nature of those mountain streams requires a lot of physical effort — big rocky, bouldery areas, hiking from pool to pool. All of our fisheries at our three locations in Argentina are fished from skiffs. Bigger ones with a Minn Kota remote-control motor, and smaller ones where you push-pole with only one angler on the bow fishing in the Iberá wetlands. But it's all from the comfort of the boat, and in a couple of our destinations you can easily ride back to the lodge. The overall experience is a lot more physically enjoyable and less demanding than hiking up a mountain stream. So the main differences are determined by the geography where these fisheries are located.

**Marvin Cash (00:50:40):**
Got it. And what's your typical Dorado season? I mean, when does it run? If people wanted to fish with you, when should they plan to come to Argentina?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:50:49):**
Well, because of the nature of the three locations we fish, we can really fish for Golden Dorado year-round with good results. But if you ask me when the best time is for all the fisheries combined, we really love the shoulder seasons — spring and fall on the opposite calendar, but that time of year when it's warm enough but not the middle of summer, when it gets too warm. In our fisheries in the middle of summer, it can be like fishing the Florida Keys in July — very humid and warm. The shoulder season gives you that warm temperature a tropical fish requires, while making it a little more comfortable weather-wise. We're talking from mid-September through mid-December, and then from mid-to-late February through early May. Those are the really prime seasons for our fisheries.

**Marvin Cash (00:52:03):**
Got it. And the great thing — we haven't even touched on this yet — but you've really built out your ecotourism and hunting options because you also have Wow Argentina and Andino Hunt. I think when I fished with you guys, you were offering red stag hunting, but you've got tons of stuff and all kinds of outings — particularly if someone wants to bring someone who doesn't want to fish. Do you want to let folks know a little bit about those?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:52:24):**
Sure, absolutely. Some of our lodges specialize in having couples and families because they offer a unique range of different opportunities and activities that will make a non-angling person's vacation as enjoyable as the hardcore angler's experience. They're really, really unique.

At Wow Argentina, what we do is design tailor-made programs for each of our guests to have a unique experience exploring the highlights of different areas of the country — whether it's the glacier fields of Tierra del Fuego, visiting wine country in Mendoza, exploring a couple of days in Buenos Aires with great guides and absorbing the culture, or seeing Iguazú Falls. Argentina is a huge country with a whole different game of ecosystems and scenery. Think about it: from south to north, Argentina is almost as long as the United States from coast to coast. So many people don't really have a sense of how big Argentina is, but it's really one of the largest countries in the world in territory.

And there's a lot of uniqueness to see and discover, plus the whole culture and gastronomy. We're very influenced by Italian and Spanish cuisine. If you enjoy the culinary side of the travel experience, you're going to be well pleased in Argentina. Of course, big in the asado and cooking on the open fire, big in wines — we have such a great variety. And beside all these unique trips, we try every one of our trips — whether Golden Dorado or trout — to be a cultural immersion. Besides exposing you to really cool fishing opportunities, we try to make that fishing trip more than just a great fishing trip — you get a little bit of the culture of the country from the food and the wine, but also by bringing entertainment in. We have people who come to dance tango and some of the folkloric music, and play instruments and sing. So we try to build on a lot of add-ons that make the whole experience complete.

And on the other side, as you mentioned, we've been running red stag hunting since the early days when you were here. We now run our own entire ranch that we manage for stag hunting. This has been eight years. We manage a 30,000-acre ranch where we have an amazing wild population of red stag. It's a very, very unique program with many people who repeat and are regulars on this trip.

**Marvin Cash (00:56:06):**
Yeah, and you've got waterfowl, upland bird hunting, and dove hunting too, right?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:56:14):**
Yeah, right here in Patagonia where we do the stag hunting, there's an opportunity for quail hunting. We have California quail that have been introduced to the area for many decades. And then we set up opportunities for dove hunting and waterfowl duck hunting in other locations of Argentina — doves too — that we can put together as an addition to any of our regular programs.

**Marvin Cash (00:56:46):**
Yeah, and it's great too, because people have to remember the seasons are reversed. So if you really want to hunt but you can't hunt in the United States, you can fly down to Argentina and hunt and fish.

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:56:57):**
Yeah, absolutely. The opportunities are countless. And actually, we try to give people a reason to come back and see us with different programs each time. That's kind of the vision of what SET Fly Fishing and our other companies are.

**Marvin Cash (00:57:15):**
Yeah, very neat. And so if folks wanted to get more information about your trips and your other offerings, where should they go?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:57:23):**
Well, you can reach us at our website at setflyfishing.com, or you can follow us on the social media platforms — Instagram especially — at setflyfishing. Each one of the lodges has their own Instagram. And you're welcome to get on the phone, or meet us at one of our presentations. We are regularly traveling across the United States and visiting local shops and clubs. So everyone is welcome to come and talk about fishing. We always like that.

**Marvin Cash (00:58:02):**
And I suspect we'll see you on the fly fishing show circuit in 2024, right?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:58:08):**
Yeah, absolutely. We're already scheduled to do some of the biggest shows — all the same ones we did last year. We'll be in Jersey and Atlanta and Denver and Pleasanton. And we're working on a couple more that will be confirmed in the next few weeks.

**Marvin Cash (00:58:29):**
Well, very neat. And Gustavo, before I let you go this evening, is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners?

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:58:36):**
Well, I want to invite everybody who hasn't visited Argentina. We're a very friendly country, a country with a high degree of hospitality, very influenced by European culture. Don't be afraid — it's South America, but it's a very friendly country that will receive you with open arms, where you will come to really build friends and memories for life.

**Marvin Cash (00:59:08):**
Yeah, and it's so easy to get to — like we talked about before, no jet lag. Fly to Buenos Aires, transfer to the airport and fly south, you're an hour ahead and you don't feel horrible.

**Gustavo Hiebaum (00:59:19):**
Yeah, absolutely. As you said, it's an easy commute — it's a long flight, but it's overnight and there's no time difference. Plus, what we do is we have a travel agency department inside our own company. From the time you start asking about what you can do in a given time frame, what program we recommend — we're going to be hands-on with the experience. We're going to assure you a hassle-free experience from the time you leave your home until after the trip and getting back home. You're going to be accompanied hands-on, every single stage. We make it very, very easy. You can travel light — we can provide you gear. So it's a whole full enjoyment experience.

**Marvin Cash (01:00:08):**
Very, very neat. And Gustavo, I really appreciate you spending some time with me this evening. And hopefully I'll get to see you on your upcoming trip to the States.

**Gustavo Hiebaum (01:00:17):**
Absolutely, Marvin. Thanks to you for having me — it's always a pleasure to have a little bit of history and fishing together. So anytime. Thanks to all the audience.

**Marvin Cash (01:00:28):**
Absolutely. Take care. Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Again, if you like the podcast, please tell a friend. And please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice.

**Marvin Cash (01:00:40):**
Tight lines, everybody.