S5, Ep 52: John Agricola of Southern Culture on the Fly

Marvin Cash (00:04-01:03): Hey, folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. On this episode, I'm joined by John Agricola, the new managing editor of Southern Culture on the Fly. We talk carp, tarpon, southern storytelling, the Dauphine of Mississippi, and SCOF past, present and future.

Folks, grab a RC Cola and moon pie for this one. But before we get to interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out.

And I also wanted to give you a heads up on a multi-part nymphing series I'm working on with Jason Randall. We cover getting your flies in the zone, getting a good drift and improving strike detection. We recently released our second episode with more to follow every two weeks or so. Check them out to see how you can win a TFO Stealth rod and reel combo with a Scientific Anglers Euro-nymphing line. Now, on to our interview.

Well, John, welcome to The Articulate Fly.

John Agricola (01:05-01:06): Hey, Marvin. Thanks for having me.

Marvin Cash (01:06-01:12): I'm really looking forward to our conversation, and we have a tradition we like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

John Agricola (01:14-03:34): Man, what a great one to start with. My family used to have some property on the Tennessee River, and my grandfather was an Episcopal priest, and so he had a really generous spirit. And I don't know if you knew this, but Sand Mountain is really close to Lake Guntersville. And it's a really unique regional subculture on Sand Mountain. You've got Dennis Covington's Salvation on Sand Mountain. Imagine Pentecostalism as a part of that world.

And there were two individuals that my grandfather was trying to help. And they set up a trailer on our very nice lake house property that had been in the family since the 30s when the river was dammed. And we bought it at auction. And the name of the two, the couple was Bossy and Flossy.

And Bossy loved to fish with crickets and worms. He would noodle for worms. And he loved eating brown. So I remember being an ankle biter and being at his knee, basically. And he's ripping in bluegill from the beds that were around the houses. And every time he caught one, he was deaf, I forgot to tell you. So his voice was somewhat broken at times. And it sounded very gruff because he had not as much control of it as a person that's not hearing impaired.

And so he did not hear me throwing the bluegill back into the water behind as he was putting them in the bucket. And I got a tongue lashing for my early catch and release practices. So that was probably my earliest fishing memory. That and competitive bluegill catching with my cousin.

Marvin Cash (03:35-03:38): There you go. So when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing?

John Agricola (03:40-05:18): It was around the time that I realized that I hated rat's nests more than anything. And I thought that the reel was a lot simpler catching bluegill with a popper than throwing a baitcaster to largemouth. So I never really got into conventional fishing. In fact, I never really learned how to do it. And everyone will scoff at that, but it was a conscious choice to be somewhat of a purist to the point of ridiculousness. Like even when there's no chance of catching something with a fly rod, I'm still throwing a damn fly rod. I don't know why, but it's about being stubborn and unwilling to sometimes catch fish, I guess.

I mean, I'd rather put myself in a situation where I can enjoy the bend of a fly rod rather than horsing a fish in, I guess. And really to delve into that more, the psychosis of it, I knew that my grandfather that was helping these people was also a fly fisherman, and I wanted to be just like him. And I knew he wasn't throwing worms. But that was a choice that I made early on was to always be throwing a fly rod so at about age 13 or 14 I picked it up and never looked back.

Marvin Cash (05:18-05:26): Yeah very neat and you know who are some of the folks that have mentored you on your fly fishing journey and what have they taught you?

John Agricola (05:26-09:46): I have to say Frank Roden is one of the most important mentors in my life. He's a really awesome individual that maybe some people are aware of, but he's like a dynamo in Gadsden for fly fishing culture. He's been making a fly shop work for the last probably 25 years in Gadsden, Alabama. And he was doing carp fishing when Barry Reynolds was doing carp fishing.

He had a huge boat, a redfisher, I think. And he would take me into the backwaters on the Coosa River and show me how to catch carp. And he wouldn't show me his striper spots, which I still wish he would. But I found some of those later in life. But he was just a really dynamic person in that he was also an antique store in his fly shop and he really took me under wing as one of the few guys that was working in Gadsden for carp and stuff. He would always if he had a customer come in he would show my card and that kind of thing.

And introduced me to the little fly fishing club that's in Rainbow City, which is close to Gadsden. And he really ran the whole thing. He was always the one bringing sodas to it. It has its issues like all fly fishing clubs do, but it was a kind of way to meet other people in the area that were doing it, that were older, wiser and more established.

There was one member of that club named Shannon McCarley that helped me navigate Guntersville and also some red-eye fisheries in North Alabama. Little River Canyon was one spot that he guided at. His service was called North Alabama Fly Fishing, And I don't think he's still operating. I think his business life is too rigorous. But before I knew how to tease the bass onto the fly, he was teaching me that you got to make it pop. And I always will appreciate the times that he took me out and worked with me on my cast and things like that.

Gary Taylor had a really impactful presence in my development as somebody that wanted to be in the industry. About eight or nine years ago, he was, I don't know if he still is, he might be still a TFO ambassador, But at the time he was, and he helped me understand that you can't be afraid of guiding when there's competition of other guides. You just have to be the best guide that you can be. And also that there was a time when it was more, there was a greater preponderance of anglers on the water. And that was at the time of A River Runs Through It coming out. And I think if I remember correctly, he said it was more like a river ran over us.

And in that historical moment, there was so much more pressure than even today, or at least that's what he said eight years ago. It may be that now it has grown to be even more than then. But it was encouragement, too, that you can write down what you're best at. And if it's fly fishing and you can't see yourself doing anything else, then you can try to make it work. And sometimes it does.

Marvin Cash (09:46-09:52): Yeah. I think his drift boat is actually in the Fly Fishing Museum in Bryson City.

John Agricola (09:53-10:11): It is, actually. And that was coming when I shared those stories with him back then. I don't think he had done it yet, but I guess he has now. I would love to get up to that museum in Bryson City. Is it Cherokee or Bryson City?

Marvin Cash (10:11-10:16): It's in Bryson City, and they're actually, I think they're in the process of building a new building for it.

John Agricola (10:18-10:18): Oh, wow.

Marvin Cash (10:18-10:28): Yeah. But it's interesting, too, you talk about Gary. I mean, I've known Gary for ages, but when I think about him, I always think about that video he did back in the day with Davey Watton.

John Agricola (10:30-10:30): I hadn't seen that.

Marvin Cash (10:31-10:35): Oh, it's about basically, I think it's about fishing wet flies, and it's like 90 minutes.

John Agricola (10:36-10:36): Oh, wow.

Marvin Cash (10:37-10:44): It's the same people that did, I think it was like Fly, Fish TV, it was like all the movies with Kelly. It's pretty cool.

John Agricola (10:45-10:45): Oh, cool.

Marvin Cash (10:45-10:46): Yeah, you'll have to check that out.

John Agricola (10:47-10:48): Yeah, I will.

Marvin Cash (10:48-10:50): Yeah, that's interesting about Gary. Anybody else?

John Agricola (10:52-12:09): As far as fly fishing, my father was pretty impactful in the sense that he would discourage me from picking up the baitcaster. I mean, he would literally shame me if I had baitcaster friends coming to the house and throwing baitcaster. So going on Bahamian adventures with him and his friends when I was like 20, that was pretty cool. And it continued. Maybe we went four or five times. In fact, in the last issue of the magazine, I did a musky story about my father.

And we had meant to do a follow-up, volume two, in the Bahamas. But he caught COVID, and then it was up in the air. So we ended up going another way, but it's all in the magazine. And just backtracking just a hair, the interview that I did with Gary Taylor, we're hoping to rework a little bit and maybe present it in either YouTube form or potentially put it somewhere in the magazine. Because it was that good a conversation that we'd like to bring it back. That's kind of a teaser.

Marvin Cash (12:10-12:23): Yeah, that's kind of neat. So, of course, if folks don't know where Gadsden, Alabama is, it's in kind of like north central Alabama. That's right. Yeah, not exactly trout territory. So what's your favorite species to chase on the fly?

John Agricola (12:26-13:10): Well, going back to not being trout territory, that Frank Roden fellow that I mentioned, he's done, there's a waterfall with very cold water in Gadsden. And he's done a lot of tourist come fish Black Creek type stuff for hatchery trout that he's put in, put in in Gadsden. And so we've got striper and carp and trout and it's sort of the best, best of all worlds in some ways. But stay away. But the question that you ask is about what now? I'm sorry.

Marvin Cash (13:10-13:21): Oh, it's all good. It's what's, I mean, I would still say you don't really live in trout territory. So what's your favorite species to chase on the fly?

John Agricola (13:22-14:47): Oh, okay. In the last decade, it has become tarpon. I just got to eat up with it and have not been very successful other than the second cast I made to one and a couple of other times. But ever since that first fish that I got to the boat, it's been sort of like an addiction that I would compare to more nefarious things that I've done in my life, like chasing the dragon or something.

It's like you have this certain amount of time on the bow and it's like sort of everything is in finite terms. You only have so many shots, so many minutes, so many opportunities to chase tarpon. So that makes it a difficult question that you ask because carp are much more rewarding in that I'm in that obsession longer. There's more time spent in Gadsden chasing carp than that one week and year that I get to go tarpon fishing. And I'm hoping it becomes more with the magazine's role in my life.

Marvin Cash (14:48-14:53): Yeah, so I guess if you had one day left in your life to fish, it sounds like you'd go tarpon fishing.

John Agricola (14:54-14:59): Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. Over bonefishing and everything else.

Marvin Cash (14:59-15:12): Yeah. And so also, I wanted to kind of know, right, I mean, we've talked multiple times before the interview and spent some time together at the Atlanta Fly Fishing Show. Where did your love of literature and storytelling and writing come from?

John Agricola (15:15-23:46): Well, my mom has published two books of poetry through the Ohio Review. And she's actually done three, I think, but only two were through the Ohio Review. And so she can cut me to the quick with her words and has become one of my best editors. And so that relationship with her was important to developing my love of story.

But then leaving the nest a little bit, I went to graduate school in Wyoming. And one of the future contributors, and he wrote the haiku in the last issue, his name is Jason Burge. But his band name is Dauphine of Mississippi. And we were both in this graduate school situation of working for the Wyoming Humanities Council in the shadow of Lynn Cheney. And it was like I was learning to review grants. That was my role as an intern. This is about 2008.

And what happened from there is me and Jason realized that we were both southern and that we were both football fans. He was a Mississippi State fan, I was an Alabama fan. And so we had people to watch the game with where people actually cared about SEC football. He and his coterie of writing friends, he was in an MFA program there in creative writing and was a student of Brad Watson, who was a very well-respected Southern writer, won the Harper Lee Award a couple of years ago. He's written a number of books, maybe four books total. He died a couple of years ago.

But Jason was his favorite student, I believe. At least that's the relationship that I observed when we would go pheasant hunting and fly fishing the Miracle Mile. And seeing them talk about stories, just campfire stories. I learned that being observant, but also being concise with the way you tell a story is very important to the listener. And so talking about the mechanics of what goes into a good story, how do you create tension, how do you manufacture a conflict even if one isn't there? Elements of a story were talked about.

And for me, I was an American Studies graduate student. So I was more on the scholarly end of things, thinking about regional identity. I found that it was a good way to just fish and not worry about my academics so much to write about the South. Because nobody at the University of Wyoming specializes in the South in the same way that they do at, say, Ole Miss. So I could kind of, being a Southerner, I could kind of bluff my way through shit. And excuse my language.

But it was like, I don't know. I wanted to do creative nonfiction. But I wasn't exactly sure how to get where Jason was in terms of being in an MFA program. You had to be a little bit more serious than I was in 2008. And I still didn't exactly know. So I ended up applying and getting a duplicate graduate degree in not American studies, but Southern studies. And that was in Oxford, Mississippi.

Brad Watson that I mentioned earlier was a student of Barry Hannah at Alabama. And so, like, it was kind of like that became another model for how I wanted to write was the Barry Hannah model. And he was, I think he had passed away by the time I was in Oxford. I'm pretty sure he had. But digging through some of his old works like Airships and Geronimo Rex, it was a good way to kind of see how good gritty literature should be done.

And so those Southern sort of writers that are deified in the literary canon of Southern writing in the modern South were important. Like Larry Brown was another influence that came in Oxford. And then there was the whole sort of host of fishing writers, because I was already obsessed with fishing. So then over the next five years after Southern Studies, I was exploring things like Pulitzer Gallery and Tom McGuane, Jim Harrison later, much later. How it rains. And these were things that I was doing because I was trying to establish myself as a scholar in something.

And there was a professor at Ole Miss that had written a book called Subduing Satan that was about hunting. And it was sort of a book that's thesis was sort of like in the South, evangelical culture is so strong and so profoundly relevant that one of the few places of escape is the outdoors. Because you get this kind of pass for being there. And so subversive things like gambling take place in the woods. Just betting your neighbor that I get the turkey first in a turkey radio or something.

So I put him and I put my editor at large now and an environmental historian in a three-person lecture series called Alabama Rigged, which was a play on that big umbrella rig that conventional fishermen throw to simulate a school of fish. And we did a lecture series in Florence and Gadsden and Guntersville. And I tried to drum up support for it by getting my fly fishing club members and friends to come and other people in the public.

So I got a little bit of experience marketing and advertising for a program that I had written a grant to the Alabama Humanities Foundation for. And we did an exhibit on antique lures in these museums that was rotating. And that was how I got into some of the fishing writing, sort of trying to do my homework for that. I didn't read Isaac Walton, but Steinberg told me all about it. So I felt like I knew about it.

Marvin Cash (23:46-23:52): And so you mentioned that you're attracted to creative nonfiction. What is it about that genre that kind of drew you in?

John Agricola (23:53-27:12): Yeah. Creative nonfiction is a lot more like fiction than people know because the same sort of aspects of a story are, it's like you still have to communicate in a way that is full of clarity and like lucid thoughts and sort of, But fiction and nonfiction, they sort of go together more than people think, I think. I'm trying to think back to my MFA at Sewanee studying of that. I kind of dropped out of that program in order to buy the magazine. So I'm drawing a blank on my training.

John Jeremiah Sullivan, whose father was a horse writer in Lexington. He wrote about thoroughbred horses. And so my teacher, John Jeremiah Sullivan, wrote his first book. It was called Blood Horses, I think. And he wrote a book called Pulphead that was a collection of essays that was about music and popular culture. Southern agrarian writers that lived in Sewanee. And that was my first creative nonfiction class was in his classroom. It was actually a virtual classroom because it was the first year of COVID.

And it was fascinating to look at how Joan Didion wrote or John McPhee wrote or other nonfiction artists, like some of the confessional stuff, like the Hashish Eater. I don't know. It was really cool because I know that what I do is creative. I don't want to say that it's not creative, but I'm not imagining things that didn't actually happen. So it's a different competency in that respect.

It's like I experienced something and when you have a good story because you know the ending of it or a good way to begin. So, yeah, I think it's a little bit harder to be a fiction writer, or it is for me anyway. I don't really understand that practice as well. But when things in your mind are humming and you've got to get it onto the page, and it's something from the observed world, I think you know you've got to get it out, and that's sort of creative nonfiction.

Marvin Cash (27:13-27:27): Yeah. And so you kind of told us a little bit earlier about kind of how you started to kind of break into kind of the professional slash outdoor writing game. Do you remember the first piece that you got paid to write and how it made you feel to get it published?

John Agricola (27:27-32:11): Yeah. It was so important in my life because it happened in 2017. My wife was about to give birth in the next couple of months, and I had nothing going at the time. I mean, I had done this academic project of Alabama rigged, and I had done a story that I started shopping around a little bit. The first story I ever shopped around, I heard back from Tom Bie.

And it wasn't because the story was knock your head off, great writing. It was just such a good gimmick. It was the sheepshead tournament in 2017. I had a buddy named Dingle. His name is Don Engle, so we call him Dingle. And he became this kind of like Dr. Gonzo figure within the story. But we were way outmatched in terms of our knowledge of the marsh. And even my boat was not equipped for the kind of waves that we were in. I think I still have cracks on my transom from that adventure.

But we did not catch any sheepshead. But there were only three fish caught in the entire tournament, even among the best guides in New Orleans. So that gives you an idea of the level of difficulty in that particular wind weekend. But, yeah, I wrote this story, and it had some of the actors that would later become heavy hitters within New Orleans for fishing. Miles LaRose was one of the characters. Because he was a tournament promoter.

And I think Tom really just wanted to have some vignette into that sheepshead tournament. And it's the only reason that I got that story through because I was an unknown variable at that point. I hadn't published anywhere. And over the next, I guess, until this fall, I published maybe seven stories, seven or eight stories with the Drake. And it was everything from the Lost Cause Monument in Gadsden. Emma Sansom is actually a guide in the 19th century for carp to some of the red-eye revolution that's happening in Alabama. We did a lot with that over the years.

And it was really just I became a freelancer. And at the same time, to support the family and get insurance, I was teaching at an evangelical school, much to my Anglican chagrin, I guess. And so I was writing in the evenings, stay up late, write a story, spin a yarn, put it in the drawer and come back to it. I did that all last year while I was working at the public school. I ended up leaving the evangelical school later because they didn't pay as well as the public school.

But the public school presented new problems. And so I started a blog. I wrote about 60 stories last year with a lot of manic energy that my job was going so poorly. And I wouldn't spend that much time editing them. I think my better works are the ones that I'll spend a lot of time editing, but these were just kind of like, it might be a one-off, something that's not connected to anything. And I don't spend that much time editing, and I just put it out into the world and kind of get tough about my sensitivity to being perfect, or as perfect as I can make something.

Because I was trying to build a readership. And so I got about 150, 200 readers in that year, but that wasn't enough. I wanted more.

Marvin Cash (32:13-32:34): Yeah. It's interesting, too, John, because I always like to ask creatives and writers in particular, since we're talking about writing, It sounds like, do you like to have a regular time to write? Is that how you do it? Or do you like to write in spurts? And does it differ based on kind of the medium that you're trying to write for?

John Agricola (32:35-33:51): Yeah. If it's a piece that I'm trying to publish in the Fly Fish Journal or the Drake, I'm going to work on it in the morning, at night, whenever I can find time. But generally, my best writing happens at night after the wife and kid went to bed. I'll write till two o'clock in the morning, sometimes three o'clock in the morning if I'm on something that seems to be a good story.

It's just there's always these like elisions kind of when you do that, where it's like that doesn't land with the reader because you didn't set it up right or something. So then I'll realize that maybe I'll send it to my mom and she'll check it out. Maybe I'll send it to Jason. He'll check it out. Somebody's going to tell me I didn't understand this part. Or I'm going to discover that I didn't understand that part. And when you're a writer, you sort of have a community of trusted readers around you. And those are the people that help you make magic happen, or at least a semblance of black magic.

Marvin Cash (33:53-33:58): There you go. And what do you think is the secret to being an effective storyteller?

John Agricola (34:04-35:04): Sensitivity to your subjects. I think it is it's kind of like you have to know that your audience could be anybody and so if you're a jerk and you're not thinking deeply about a character that's in your story if you're not thinking like what is the humanity of that person even if they seem like a diabolical mayor that owns a strip club, they're still maybe a family man. There's a larger, or there's a greater layer of universality within that character that you have to uncover. Does that make sense?

Marvin Cash (35:04-35:16): Yeah, it does. I guess what I would, I guess my followup to that would be, so that's a really rare skill, right? And we could go down an absolute rabbit hole talking about how people spent more time trying to understand everybody else, the world would be a better place.

John Agricola (35:17-35:18): Yeah.

Marvin Cash (35:18-35:23): But did that come naturally to you or was that a skill that you had to cultivate?

John Agricola (35:25-36:24): That was cultivated and it came from — I have a good friend that's a better reader than me. She did a MFA at Warren Wilson. Her name's Jody. Anyway, she sometimes reads my work, and she's criticized me often for that you're basically mansplaining here or whatever. Having that secondary reader helped me to understand that sometimes I'm too quick or, and I want to get better at that, especially when it comes to advertising, because if you're a jerk and everybody can see that, then nobody's going to want to read you. That's kind of how I feel about it.

Marvin Cash (36:24-36:36): Yeah. Interesting. And you're kind of, I guess, you've been kind of trying to juggle and you kind of flip the switch to trying to make it as a full-time creative. What is the greatest challenge you've found so far?

John Agricola (36:40-37:49): Convincing my wife that anybody cares about Southern Culture on the Fly. And that just, that comes from the fact that in Gadsden, we're not, it's not Asheville. I mean, She doesn't go to the shows with me. She doesn't see that there's people that have followed Grossman and Steinberg for over a decade. And she doesn't understand the opportunity that I now have, and she won't listen to this podcast. So it seems like I'm just a derelict of my parental duty sometimes because I'm trying to make meaning in a story or make meaning in this career.

And it's like it's all that I think about when I wake up. It's all that I think about when I go to bed. And it's sort of the entrepreneur's struggle. And it's a struggle that you walk by yourself sometimes. I'd say that's the hardest thing about it.

Marvin Cash (37:50-38:41): Yeah, it's kind of interesting too, because I've been in Charlotte for a pretty good while, and certainly pre-SCOF and saw SCOF grow. And I mean, there was, and talked to Dave about this when he was on the podcast, those early days of SCOF, there was an incredibly vibrant fly fishing community in western North Carolina, east Tennessee and upstate South Carolina. Right. And it was really a thing, and you really saw the community, right?

And you had, like, the Fiberglass Manifesto blog. You had the SCOF guys. You still have Crooked Creek Holler. There was a really active culture around the Western North Carolina Fly Fishing Expo. Yeah. It's a little bit different now because even scoffers get older. But that community is still there. I mean, you and I talk about it all the time.

John Agricola (38:42-40:16): Right, right. And we're hoping to re-engage those other sub-regions. In fact, we're working on some tour-type things that may come next fall. I don't want to say too much about it because it's still early goings of planning. But when Dave Grossman or Steve show up at a party in the fly fishing world, that's the party that people want to be at. And we want it to be like that, too, for us.

In putting this group together, that was certainly one of the considerations that I had when I picked a player or a partner in the group. And we don't take ourselves very seriously like that we're ever going to start a fishing revolution. But we do want to stay true to the countercultural principles of Dave and Steve. And so we're going to do that to the best of our ability in party format.

Like I was talking to somebody tonight about potentially doing a party that certain members, like we could go, we're just trying to figure out how to do it. But at headquarters, we could have bands and do like a Bonnaroo for scoffers. It was just an idea, but it might be fun.

Marvin Cash (40:16-40:39): Yeah, I think back in the day they used to have potlucks. Yeah, yeah, potlucks. So if people don't know and they haven't connected the dots yet, you're the new editor and publisher of Southern Culture on the Fly. And I was really kind of curious about if you could share with us why you wanted to buy the magazine, but also just a little bit about the whole process of like how it came up and buying the magazine from Dave and Steve.

John Agricola (40:40-43:49): Sure. So I wanted to buy the magazine because Dave has become a good friend in the last four or five months, as good a friend as you can have as a new friend. I still talk to him weekly. He's good for bounce ideas off of. But going back to when I was in Oxford in the Southern Studies program, when SCOF began, they were just, I feel like in my early stage of caring about fly fishing writing, I was going, damn, I'm sorry, they beat me to the punch. And that's such a cool idea to call something Southern Culture on the Fly. And you could house stories under that. And like the potential was always there.

In fact, when I was thinking about buying it, I found an early message that I sent to them from like 2015. And it was a story that I had penned and wanted them to put in the magazine. But I was like, I think it was on Facebook, because maybe I wasn't far enough along in my social media presence to have an Instagram account yet. But I have this message to Dave and Steve that I found after we had done the deal with them. And I was like, man, I was caring about that organization from the beginning.

And it's so cool that we found a way to bring it into our ownership because it'll never be the same entity or the same organism that it was with them. Like we don't have, I mean, not many people are as genius as Steve is when it comes to photography. Dave has a certain writing style that is a really hard one to approach as a writer, but he's got a little bit different style than me.

So I'm totally good with hoping to keep their readership, but also continue to grow it from a larger regional standpoint by doing things that maybe they were a little bit timid about doing. Like, what does it mean to be Southern? How do we imagine ourselves as Southern? Can something be Southern if it's just part of the globalization process? There's so many different ways to see the South in the world. And so that's going to hopefully reimagine and expand what we can do as an organization. Would you steer me back in any kind of way?

Marvin Cash (43:49-43:55): Well, yeah, that's really neat. And then I guess you mentioned you've got some partners in crime at the magazine. You want to tell us a little about them and what they do?

John Agricola (43:56-47:55): Sure. Yeah. Well, the first person I called about wanting to buy the magazine, when I saw the penultimate issue, that's when it became something that I thought might be possible. Because I understood what that word meant. And I knew that there was finality coming. And that really kind of bummed me out because I enjoyed getting that email every quarter.

And I knew that I had some skills as a writer, but I knew that Hank Hershey, who's our creative director, is, I mean, Hank's a genius. I mean, he can do business sort of stuff that I can't do. He can do graphic design. He can do art. And he's a PhD in fish biology. So, like, really dynamic, renaissance-type person in Hank Hershey, who's our creative director.

And then at a Carp Cup that I went to in about 2016 or maybe 18, I met Sam Bailey. And Sam Bailey's just an awesome guy. I mean, he's super affable, great personality. He used to have a fly shop in Huntsville. That was his first real foray into the fly fishing world. And so I knew he understood the gear in a way that I didn't want to take the time to devote to. I don't have to be everybody. Like if we have a desire to create a good product and we have more hats on I think that's going to make us stronger in the long run, but maybe not as profitable for individual sakes. But in the early goings, we're like let's figure out how we can put our very diverse skill sets together.

And then there's Professor Flyfish, Mike Steinberg, who he had come on board with me at the Alabama Rigged Cultural History Project as a speaker. And he's from Missouri, but has lived in Alabama for maybe 15, 20 years. He's a professor at the University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa. He does mangrove studies and kind of GIS work in Belize a lot and Honduras and Nicaragua. So he's often on these field course trips with students to places where maybe there's bonefish right next to where they're staying. There's a flat next to the tents or houses. I don't exactly know what their house or tent situation is, but he takes a science geography class down there every summer.

So I knew he would be great. He had been in the original SCOF. He wrote a Cuban tarpon story where he was fishing, roll casting into C-notes. And that was like, I think that's the issue where Dave is wearing, it's a cartoon bra that he's wearing on the cover of the magazine. So Mike Steinberg is in that issue. I think it's 2017, maybe fall. But anyway, those are the guys. I mean, we've become great friends in the last three months or four months since we've been doing this.

Marvin Cash (47:55-48:08): Yeah, that's really neat. And folks just see the issues, but I thought it would be interesting, since you've got an issue under your belt, to kind of share with us how the sausage is made and kind of what it takes to birth an issue.

John Agricola (48:09-51:01): Sure. Well, we inherited the work ethic of Dave and Steve in the sense that they like to meet a weekend before the issue was put out. And we went in November to Asheville to see how they made their sausage. And it was really cool to see them working on the last issue in person. But we didn't really adopt that particular modality in our style. We still meet the weekend before, but we're sort of more spread out in a way.

The first issue that we put out, we did meet at Steinberg's house in Birmingham because he has more reliable Internet than we have at headquarters at the current time. And that's not because we're a podunk. It's because it's a pretty kind of rustic farm situation there. And rural Internet is hard to find. So I've been using my hotspot on my phone, and we'll have to do that in future endeavors because Steinberg's going to Belize this summer. And so I don't think we're going to meet at his house this time.

We've been put — I mean, the issue's probably halfway made right now, maybe 75% made. I've seen a draft of it. It's going to be really good. I think it's better to spread out your creative energies over a longer amount of time. So we've got this group text that we would never want to get out because we'd be seen as degenerates for the things that come up there. But it is, it's a really kind of creative space where we're spitballing ideas constantly.

And so like the people that have jobs, which is everybody but me and Hank, Hank's job is to be a full time PhD candidate. But and he's also got the bait shop, too. I forgot about that. The bait shop is like kind of a place for thoughtful outdoorsmen. But anyway, we're just always spitballing. And I do my writing, put it in the waffle, and Hank does the artistic design of the layouts. Mike does the same thing with his stories. He just puts them in the waffle. Hank is a master with InDesign, so it's been good so far.

Marvin Cash (51:02-51:06): Yeah, pretty neat. I know it's early days, but what has been the biggest challenge for you guys so far?

John Agricola (51:09-52:02): I think the biggest challenge is that we want to be kind of like this laid back kind of non-Type A group. But there are, I mean, we're kind of all Type As. But the management structure of the group is that we are all equal partners. So I did that because I thought it would be better for getting the best work out of everybody. So we're kind of all on the honor system that you're going to do your best work and you're going to try your best. And so that gives everybody a greater interest than they would have had ordinarily based on their investment level. Does that make sense?

Marvin Cash (52:04-52:18): Yeah, it does. And you've got one issue under your belt. I think you're going to drop another issue probably like a week before Memorial Day weekend, give or take. Can you give folks a little bit of a sneak peek into the next issue?

John Agricola (52:19-53:02): Sure. Expect really strong writing and images, like better than the first issue. We're doing a thematic kind of projection of what is grace and how does it function in the life of everyone. And our album of choice is not Elvis, but I'll say Elvis is in it. How about that?

Marvin Cash (53:02-53:02): There you go.

John Agricola (53:03-53:03): That's all I'll say.

Marvin Cash (53:04-53:18): Fair enough. And I know that you're always looking for different voices and kind of different visions. If someone wanted to either contribute writing to the magazine or images, kind of what's that process and what are you looking for?

John Agricola (53:19-53:58): Sure. We would love to get submissions and work with up-and-coming writers. The best way to do that is to share with us your idea in a pitch format and maybe list some publications that that person has been a part of before. And you could even attach the story and give us a sample to read and send it to southerncultureontheflyatgmail.com.

Marvin Cash (53:59-54:00): Well, there you go.

John Agricola (54:00-54:02): And that's the best way for us to get it.

Marvin Cash (54:02-54:10): Yeah. And so I know you have kind of a lot of ideas kind of for the future. Are there anything kind of in the near future in terms of events or projects you want to share with our listeners?

John Agricola (54:14-54:48): Yeah. So, I don't, the one that's burning a hole in me is, we're doing a Gulf coast thing. It's a collaboration, hopefully with some major writers and artists in the fly fishing world. And we're hoping that it's going to happen next fall. It'll be sort of hosted by fly shops and breweries. And it'll be about four different sites. And that's sort of all I can say.

Marvin Cash (54:49-54:52): Yeah, so better follow you guys on Instagram, right?

John Agricola (54:52-54:55): Yeah, follow us on Instagram at Southern Culture on the Fly.

Marvin Cash (54:55-55:00): Yeah, and so is there anything else I've left out you want to share with folks before I let you go this evening?

John Agricola (55:02-55:04): No, man, this is a fun chat. Thank you.

Marvin Cash (55:05-55:20): Oh, no, it's my pleasure. It's been a lot of fun. And before I let you hop, you want to let folks know kind of, I know you just gave out the Instagram handle, And I know we just heard your email address, but you want to kind of put that all nice together about where folks can find you guys, follow you on social media and all of your adventures on and off the water?

John Agricola (55:22-55:58): Sure. I guess individually, Sam Flyfish at Sam Flyfish is our advertising director. If you're an advertiser and you're interested in SCOF, reach out to him. Or Hank's Bait Shop at Hank's Bait Shop. It's another one. If you're an artist maybe and you want to reach out to him that's how to find Hank. And Professor Fly Fish if you're an aspiring geographer and you want to go to Belize and catch bonefish. No, I'm kidding I don't know. Professor Fly Fish is the other one and then I'm at Carp South.

Marvin Cash (55:59-56:05): Yeah gotcha and I'll drop all those I'll drop the email address I'll drop the website URL

John Agricola (56:05-56:10): and all that kind of good stuff in the show notes. Great thank you Marvin you betcha and I appreciate

Marvin Cash (56:10-56:30): you taking the time and I wish all of you guys the best of luck bringing the second issue home. Yeah, man. Thank you. Have a good one. Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Again, if you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating review in the podcatcher of your choice. Tight lines, everybody.