S6, Ep 132: Fly Tying and Destination Travel with Tim Flagler

Marvin Cash: Hey, folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. In this episode, I'm joined by fly tying guru Tim Flagler. While most of you know Tim from his tying videos and fly fishing show appearances, you may not know Tim spends a significant amount of time each year hosting fly fishing travel around the world. Tim and I take a deep dive into the ins and outs and the do's and don'ts of destination travel. I think you're really going to enjoy this one. 

But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out. 

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Now on to our interview. Tim, welcome to The Articulate Fly.

Tim Flagler: Oh, it's good to be here, Marvin. It's been a while.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it has been a while. I can't believe it's taken us  this long to get together, you know. And Tim, we have a tradition on The Articulate Fly. We like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

Tim Flagler: Oh, earliest fishing memory, not fly fishing, but fishing down at the Jersey shore with my grandmother. She was the one that really got me fishing. My father didn't fish. My, didn't  know my grandfather, on the one side, the grandfather on the other didn't fish. And, yeah, my brothers and I spent a couple weeks every summer with my grandmother down at the Jersey Shore. And he was like a drill sergeant. So, he had us up, catching bait fish. And then we’d use the bait fish to catch bigger fish and you know, kind of like on Bugs Bunny, when they do that routine and finally up to, you know, decent sized flounder or blue fish in the ocean. So it was pretty cool.

Marvin Cash: Very neat. So when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing?

Tim Flagler: Not until college. And freshman year in College up at St. Lawrence University in upstate New York. And you know, it was one of those deals where freshman year you're just, you know, you're chatting with different people in your hall or in the dorm and you know, what do you like to do? And a couple of us, you know, figured out we like fishing and so started fishing together fall of freshman year. And I think it was like October, maybe. And we were just spinning rods and things like that, you know, Mepp's spinners, little Cleos and. And out of nowhere this guy kind of, this is up near the Adirondacks, guy comes out of the woods and he kind of looked familiar. And I thought he was a conservation officer maybe at first, and we maybe had a few too many fish. I'm not sure. Anyway, it turns out the reason he looked familiar is we'd seen him around campus and he was the head of the biology department at St. Lawrence. And, I don't remember the exact way he said it, but in a nutshell, what he said was, you know, we were no longer boys. We were St. Lawrence and we were men. And men didn't use spinning rods. So he might, for like three of us, we were done. And it's been one of the things that, I mean, since that day, you know  I've had little breaks from it where,  you know, I haven't totally quit fly fishing, but I've kind of done other things. But it's pretty, it's pretty much been a constant for the last 40 years for me. Since that day.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, that's pretty neat. And so, you know, in that kind of storied history of fly fishing, who are some of the folks that have mentored you on your journey?

Tim Flagler: Oh, I've been very, very lucky. Dr. Green was one. He really helped us out, as did some of the other folks up at Saint Lawrence. He introduced us to some of the guys that worked in the physical plant up there. And they were also fly fishermen, as was the athletic director at the time. 

And then once I graduated, I came back to New Jersey. And probably the biggest influence on my fly fishing was a guy that owned the local fly shop here in Califon. His name was Les Shannon. He's no longer with us. He died of cancer quite a few years ago, now. The shop is still there, though. Used to be Shannon's Flying Tackle. Now it's South Branch Outfitters, new owners. But Less was schooled kind of in the Catskill method of tying, particularly Catskill Style Dries. Excellent tyer, engineer by trade, but owned a little fly shop. And I was living closer to Manhattan, working in there after college. But every, gosh, every night in season, I drive an hour west to here Califon, and fish and then go and stop. Les would be tying in the shop and I'd stop in, and he helped me a ton with tying. And he was kind of a cranky old guy. That's, most people know him as being really cranky, and he was real strict about how he wanted you to tie and everything. But they're lessons and kind of things that I've taken with me throughout my tying career. So yeah, I owe Les Shannon a lot.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's interesting you say that while you were telling that story. Made me think about, like, how precise Dave Brandt was when he tied.

Tim Flagler: Exactly. And I'm telling you, Les was from that exact same school. You know, Walt Winnie Dette Harveys, er Darbees that whole Catskill group and kind of method of tying and what just, it kills me to this day, Marvin. I'd gotten a whole bunch over the years collected. Less’s flies that Less himself tied and had them all organized, everything like that. And about 10 years ago, lost them all to bugs. They literally ate every single one. And it was one of those things I thought I had them packed away well  And you know, hadn't even looked at the collection in a while and opened it up and just, you know, one of those just irreplaceable. And he passed away by that point. So no way to get the flies back. Real bummer.

Marvin Cash: Ugh, and so did you, was your interest in fly tying, did it happen really quickly after you kind of got roped in college, or did it take a little while?

Tim Flagler: Yeah, and it was, that was very much a part of it early on, was the tying.  And very, very simple stuff.. I mean ridiculously simple stuff. And, but, but for me, anyway, once I graduated and came back and was living in Summit,  New Jersey, and working in the town next door, then I just became obsessed. Bad. And, you know, getting off work and going home and tying for two or three hours at a time and then getting up early in the morning and tying. So, yeah.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, and so it's interesting. So, you know, you've been at this for a while and, you know, I'm kind of curious, kind of what has kept you fly fishing and fly tying all these years, and how you didn't become a golfer or pick up another hobby. Right? 

Tim Flagler: Well, I, I kind of did. I'm one of those guys that I can't really do anything kind of halfway. I get pretty obsessive about things. And, so in the time since then I kept on fly fishing, but sometimes more than others. And my wife, Joan, Joan and I moved to Califon actually, as a result of fishing up here when we got married and everything like that. You know, most people will look at the school system, maybe the taxes, what's going on in the town. For me, it was that there's a beautiful trout stream that flows right through the center of town. There was a general store, post office and a fly shop. And so we, we've been here for almost 40 years now. 

Anyway, back to the question. In that time, I've also done things. I got hopelessly addicted to.sailboarding for a long time and sailed all over the east coast, anyway, Hawaii. And then it was shotgun sports for a while and sporting clays and trap and all the stuff that goes along with that. And then for quite a few years, honestly, if you had asked me to choose between duck hunting and fly fishing, I probably would have chosen duck hunting. Really was into it. The Jersey, the Jersey shore is very famous for it. And so was into that, but always in the background was fly fishing and fly tying. Never, never really forgot about it, but, you know, kind of came in waves.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's funny you say that. So my rule would always be, if I had a half a day, I'd go shoot sporting clays. And if I had a whole day, I'd go fishing.

Tim Flagler: Yes. Perfect. So I, you know, I have, I have a barn and a basement full of former hobbies. And you know, you always say you're going to get back to them, but the fly fishing and fly tying is really taking over and not, not a lot of time for, you know, between work and tying and fishing and hosting trips and all that good stuff. Not a lot of time for shooting sports or wind surfing anymore.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, maybe you should come to the fly fishing show and wear jams and good old OPT shirts and stuff.

Tim Flagler: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I still got them. I don't think any of them fit anymore, but it's all good.

Marvin Cash: So, you know, for a lot of us, our fishing season is kind of winding down. And I know you're out on the road a lot, not just with your hosted travel, but do you have any kind of memorable fishing adventures you want to share with our listeners?

Tim Flagler: Oh, I mean, honestly, really too many to remember. I did just get back from one in way northern British Columbia. Very northern end of the Rockies. And it was really special cause my, son Drew was with me and he's joined our video production business. And he’s really taken to fly fishing. He did other things throughout school and played lacrosse in college. But just in the last couple years he's gotten to be, we can't tell him this, Marvin, but he's gotten to be really good at fly fishing. Kind of pisses me off a little bit, how quickly he picked it up, how well he casts, things like that. But anyway, we got to take a trip with Northern Rockies Adventures just a couple of weeks ago. Really unbelievable place way up in British Columbia. And what made it so memorable,  first of all was fishing and shooting video with him. But secondly, we were able to, in just four or five days of fishing, we ended up getting truly trophy pike to 45 inches, bull trout, you know, which for me is very, very unique. And lake trout, beautiful rainbow trout, big rainbow trout, grayling. Gosh, I guess we had a shot at walleye. Just a remarkable place and to catch that variety of fish in really just a few days. Pretty remarkable. So, that's been a recent highlight, anyway.

Marvin Cash: Very neat. And you know, before, it's kind of funny, right, because we talked before we recorded and we're doing kind of the pre-interview stuff that with guys like you and Tom that have been around and been interviewed a lot. I generally try to take a different approach. So folks, we're going to talk about Tim's hosted trips here and his travel in a minute. But I do want to touch on your video and tying work. And I know that tyers are mad scientists, and they're always playing around with new materials and tools and I was kind of curious if you have anything on your bench you wanna  share with our listeners.

Tim Flagler: Well, you're probably not gonna wanna hear this Marvin, but I'm tying during this interview. I know, that's bad. But a couple of materials I'm using that, actually both of them are from Semperfli, and I, you know, only recently started using a lot of their materials. But two of them that are just real, real game changers, for me anyway. One is the classic waxed thread that they have in 12/0. Amazingly strong stuff. Thin diameter. Just absolutely does everything you want it to. Doesn't build up a lot of bulk,  is quite strong, and it just goes on perfectly. The other one, not nothing really all that unique. They call it EggStatic. It's an egg yarn, and with, you know, with this fall season coming up for both trout and steelhead, I, with guiding and everything I have to produce a lot of eggs and the stuff is literally just, just a little scud hook with a bead on it and then three turns of the 8 millimeter EggStatic and it's man you're good to go. And makes beautiful little eggs. Couldn't be simpler. So they're, they're two materials. I have a whole host of them. You know, new materials that are coming out and that I really really like. But, but that's two of them. 

Marvin Cash: Yeah, I know Montana Fly company. I've been seeing a ton of new stuff coming out from those guys, too.

Tim Flagler: Yeah, and Fulling Mill is another one. I've been working with Fulling Mill  for quite a few years now, and they, they have some of my patterns that are sold commercially, but they., you know, only within the last few years have started selling materials as well. And their stuff, like their ultra dry yarn is lights out. I mean it's just beautiful texture, some translucency, a little bit of shimmer. It's treated with some, you know, water resistant whatever it is and so floats well. You can use it for Comparadun-style wings and tails. It's just like a do-all material. Really nice. Also, I got to give a little plug to their hooks as well. They’re, particularly their black nickel finished barbless series. Just real sexy looking hooks, you know. Real nice bends and everything like that. Super strong and like them a lot.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, very, very neat. And, you know, you have to have some new tech gizmos in the background on the video side. Anything like that you want to share with folks?

Tim Flagler: Some yes and some no.

Marvin Cash: I understand.

Tim Flagler: Yeah, I still am in the video production business so some of this stuff we're gonna keep, you know, keep quiet about that. But one of the, I mean actually a couple of the new, new Sony cameras, the ZV-E10. Amazing little camera for the money. If anybody's looking to do, you know, maybe start doing tying videos or live presentations, for the money, it’s an incredible camera. Very capable 4K. The other one, if you want to spend a little more money, is the 6700. Does 4K120 frames per second, which is just crazy for a small camera like that.

Marvin Cash: And you just have to pair it with a Mac studio, and you're in great shape, right?

Tim Flagler: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. They, you know if the camera prices are dropping then you need that fast machine. You need the big hard drives. You know, really, really fast video cards, things like that. So, they get you one way or another. But, as compared to when I started Tightline Productions, Marvin, it's nothing. I mean it's a pittance compared to what it was. And you're, you know, back then, this is like 1997, 98 when we got started, you know, a shoulder, Sony Betacam was starting at $30,000. And so, you know, even like a DV cam or something like that was,  you know, 15,000 with broadcast lens on it. So, everything's just gotten smaller, better, cheaper. Which is wonderful.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, I'll kind of pile on the ZV10. I would say, you know what amazes me is the intelligence and the focus system, right? Particularly for like tying videos, right? You know,  to be able to sit there and like hold the pack of dubbing in front of the camera and then have it instantly come back and pop back on your face or on the vise is amazing.

Tim Flagler: Yeah, yeah. Some of the tech, and you can see the, you can see this stuff coming down the road, too. I mean it's just a matter of time. I started doing photography back when we were using light meters. They weren't even building cameras. You know, it was all film. And you know, now everything is so automatic. And I imagine the day coming fairly soon where all you're literally gonna do is point the camera, you know, compose your shot, and then you can probably adjust focus and depth of field. And you know, anything to do with color exposure in post, you know, in Photoshop or if you're editing it in video, you know, Final Cut or Premiere or something like that. But I think it'll all be handled digitally.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And we'll stay out of talking about AI

Tim Flagler: Yeah, yeah, please.

Marvin Cash: But you know, a lot of people, Tim, are super familiar with your fly tying and all of your fly tying videos, but I think a lot of folks don't know that you spend, I don't know, gosh, probably four to six weeks a year on the road hosting trips. And you know, I was really kind of curious, kind of how you got into the hosted travel game.

Tim Flagler: Yeah, it was, this is quite, oh, gosh, seven or eight years ago, maybe nine years ago. We really hadn't thought about hosted travel and got a call from, it was then Andes Drifters down in Argentina, in Patagonia, and now it’s Set Fly Fishing. And that was really the first go at it. And Joan and I were like, I don't know whether we really want to do this or not. But, they had us come down. I fell instantly, fell in love with Patagonia. And we're still running multiple trips with them every year. And then it kind of one thing led to another and we're doing other trips, as well. I hope to get back to that same place. Northern Rockies adventures. We're going to be doing that. 

The other thing that I always like to do is I enjoy cooking a lot. And so we've started hosting kind of our own trips out in central Pennsylvania. I don't know how many people are familiar with it, but it's a property, it's Wayne Harpster's property, and it's where Jimmy Carter and Rosalynn fished throughout his presidency and afterwards. It's very, very famous water on Spruce Creek. 

And so we're doing hosted travel out there where my son Drew and I, we can't really call it guiding. It's more just because the anglers are good and kind of on their own, but we'll facilitate with that. But we do all the cooking and, you know, all the meals for that. We do the same. We're just starting to do, up on Lake Erie, kind of right on the border between Pennsylvania and Ohio. And so, we did a show with for the new fly fisher, last year. Captain Kurt charters up there and he's got some cottages and so we're hosting and cooking up there this year. And, yeah, really looking forward to it.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's neat. And you're, you're also out in Montana, right?

Tim Flagler: Oh, of course. Can't forget Montana. We've been doing trips with the Linehans, Tim and Joanne Linehan, up on the Kootenai river, up near Libby, Montana. And I think it's been about eight years maybe with them. And Tim's actually an old friend from my college days. Totally having nothing to do with fly fishing. And I met Tim I think in 1979. And so it's, it's kind of weird that we're, we're both in the industry now, and it's weird thinking back, you know, if you had some vision of the future where we're sitting up in a dorm at St. Lawrence and you know, you could go, “Hey Tim, you know, in 30 years from now we're gonna be doing trips together in Montana.” I think we would have both gone. Wow. That's incredible. So, yeah, every, every year is great out there. It's a wonderful place.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, that's pretty neat. And so, you know, one of the themes with all those trips is you're working directly with the outfitters as opposed to booking agents. And I was wondering if you could kind of share your thoughts on why you think that's a better approach or a better approach for you, maybe.

Tim Flagler: Yeah, it's economics a little better. It's kind of cuts out a person. And I also, I like working, you know, directly with the outfitter just as more personal. You know, you can help tailor a trip to the anglers that you have. You know, it's never, it's never the same group twice really. And ability wise or you know, what they need, even dietary needs. And so there's a lot of work that goes into it for us anyway, working directly with the outfitter and trying to have them be ready and you know, the program going for a specific group of people with specific needs.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. You know, and so, you know, you take, let's just say it's Joe Angler and he's decided he wants to take a trip in 2025. You know, what should someone who's considering, you know, going on a hosted trip think about as they're trying to pick the right trip and all that kind of stuff? 

Tim Flagler: Yeah, it's a really great question, Marvin. A number one, and I hate to say this is physical ability is really a big thing and there are some trips that don't require much physical ability at all, which is wonderful. You know, a lot of anglers are getting older and wading in a fast moving stream with slippery rocks is difficult. You know, it's even getting, I'm 63 years old, it's starting to get difficult for me in places that used to be no problem at all. And so, but we have people that still really wanna fish and, you know, mind’s there everything,  but you know, body's lagging behind a little bit. And so we need to know that before, you know, booking a trip. And there are things that we can do, there are trips that will work out well for folks like that, and we can steer them in that direction. 

And, so yeah, getting to know the people beforehand and obviously ability, as well. You know, I’m not going to have somebody who's you know, say an advanced novice fly fisher, go down to Argentina with me, and you know, do a six-day float on the Limay where you're casting eight weight rods with sinking lines for 10 hours a day with big streamers. You know, it's just not, it won't be enjoyable for them. And so you know, lead them into another trip, say one out at Linehan's where you can be in a drift boat. There's very little to no wading, and you're having a wonderful time catching a whole bunch of westslope cutties and red band rainbows. And you're using just a five weight with the floating line and dry flies.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, and so, you know, obviously, and it's funny. I won't make you tell me how you know, how people are really fishing. Like they tell you they're awesome, and then you have to adjust it, right, anything like that. But you guide, so you kind of knew it, right? You kind of size people up. But you know, what are some other kind of common mistakes that, you know, potential travelers make or things that they don't consider, and I would imagine, you know, physical ability is definitely one of them. Cause I've heard horror stories of people that weren't up to it going into the jungles of Bolivia to chase Dorados, and it didn't turn out very well.

Tim Flagler: Yeah, yeah, it can be brutal, and it's just too, probably second to the physical ability is just to try to keep an open mind when you travel. And you know, particularly when you're traveling to foreign countries, the culture is different. And I think that people who embrace those cultures have a much better time than somebody that, say, is more resistant to that. May want to not impose, but, but you know, go with their culture, their method of doing things, as opposed to kind of joining in with the culture of that country or that area even. I mean, it really happens in the United States harem as well. And you know, if you're, let's just say you're from New York City maybe, and you're out west on, on a ranch or whatever, the culture is different out there. The more you can kind of join in and go with the flow, I think the better time you're gonna have. So that's a big one. Yeah, that's a real big one.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's a huge one. It's kind of funny because people. I've been on trips like that and people will complain. I was like, well, if you wanted it to be just like home, why did you go? Why did you leave? Right?

Tim Flagler: Yeah. Why are you spending all the money, and all the travel and hassle that goes along with the travel and, when you could do your own thing right on your home water? But, yeah, that is a big thing. And I'm, I'm kind of the exact opposite. If I get into a different country, I immediately. I'm one of those guys that, it's not so bad that, you know, every time I go to Montana, I strap on a pair of cowboy boots and a cowboy hat. I'm not quite that bad. But, you know, traveling to Argentina, I've, over the years,  I've started drinking their local drink and their mate. And trying to barbecue the way they do, although, it's a helpless effort there. Yeah, just, just kind of adopting some of the culture, I think is important, and it's fun for me to do, anyway.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's funny you say that. I've got my mate hoof, my ox hoof on my desk here.

Tim Flagler: Yeah. Yeah. I'm, it's almost one of those things that I wish didn’t happen because I I get cranky if I don't have my afternoon mate.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, I would say I'll confess. I just use mine to hold pens and pencils, but that's okay. 

Tim Flagler: Oh yeah, it's, it's not for everybody. It's definitely an acquired taste. But yeah, I love this stuff. Can't get away from it.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And you know, we talked about this when we were doing our pre-interview call that, you know, one of the big things when you do hosted travel is trip fit and group fit. And I know that's really important to you, and I was kind of curious, you know, what do you do to maximize the chances that someone who travels with you gets on the right trip with the right people?

Tim Flagler: Yeah, that, that's a tough one. And a lot of this comes down to, you know, it's, it can be, depending on the year, depending on the trip, it can be difficult. Even though we promote real heavily, it can be difficult to fill a trip at times. And so, you know, you're, you don't always have the luxury of putting the right people together on the right trip. And their timing may not work out well, but you know, there are a couple of things when, when you have people together on a trip, that may not be exactly compatible. You know, there are obviously some things that we're going to stay away from, topically, politics, religion, stuff like that. And if I, you know, as the host, I can steer them away from conversations like that, that's, that just makes the trip more pleasant for everybody else. And so we really haven't had too many problems with that. I've been worried at the onset of a trip and go, oh my gosh, you know, I guided this guy and I guided this guy. I don't know how they're gonna get along together. And you know, it always shocks me two days in they're fast friends and, you know, wanna fish together every day. So,  yeah, kind of a free for all.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's kind of interesting. I mean, I guess the only thing I can say, and it's kind of the advice I would give when I would like, work with Project Healing Water guides and say, look at your day. You have to be honest about what you want out of it. Right? 

Tim Flagler: Yeah

Marvin Cash: And I think, you know, a lot of people go on an entire trip, and at the end they're like, I wish we had done this. And it's like, well, if you told them at the beginning, they probably would have moved heaven and earth to have that happen for you.

Tim Flagler: Yeah, yeah, we do. You know, at the beginning of a trip and during a trip we're constantly, you know, what else can we do? What do you need? You know, if you're not feeling up to a, you know, a full day of fishing, you know, maybe we can get you a half day and go do something else for the afternoon. Yeah, yeah, it's imperative that they enjoy the trip and hey, you need to know what they need to enjoy the trip. So.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And the great thing is you and Joan also have options for non-anglers, which makes it easier sometimes for anglers to get out of the country and travel, right?

Tim Flagler: Yeah, that, that, that has been a huge thing for us and is having, because you know what, a lot of guys that, you know, they're married, kids are out of the house, you know, and they, they want to go on a vacation and they, they mentioned fishing and maybe the spouse says,  ah, that's not going to work, we're going together and you know, I want to go to Europe instead or whatever. And having, having the ability to have non-angling,spouses or partners, whatever, come along has really helped with booking trips for us, and I think has made the trips actually a lot better. And the one we do with Set Fly Fishing in Patagonia, in particular,  is just, it's worked out so well having non-anglers go, and to the point where, you know, Joan and the non-anglers will come back. I've been out fishing with the anglers for the full day,  and they describe at dinner what they did for the day and I'm like, maybe I could drop a day of angling and go and hang out with those guys for a while. Whether it's horseback riding with the gauchos or, you know, s seven-course lunch in an organic farm, kayaking on the lake. Yeah, it all sounds good. It all sounds fun. Love to do it sometime.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And  it's interesting too, cause even if you work with a great lodge or an outfitter, I think that most people that kind of aren't in the industry have no idea how much work you and Joan put in kind of pre-trip, on the trip and post-trip. And I was kind of wondering if you would kind of take us behind the curtain in the land of Oz and tell us a little bit about what you guys do to make a trip a success.

Tim Flagler: Well, it really starts out with Joan. Anybody will tell you that I certainly married up, way back when. And she's amazing on the phone with potential guests and working with the lodge and then putting the guests in contact with the folks at the lodge. And it is a whole lot of work on the phone. 

For me, it's, you know, promoting either online or at the fly fishing shows or doing presentations either over Zoom or in person to TU chapters or fishing clubs all throughout the country. And I do have an advantage over most people who are, who are, you know, booking trips in that I'm a video producer, and my son Drew is as well. And so we can produce video to help us sell the trips. And that makes a big, big difference. And, you know, whether we're doing it over Zoom or a fly fishing show, having potential guests get to see what the lodge looks like, see the quality of the fishing, quality of the food, how we interact with the guides, the scenery, everything, is a real advantage. And motion video kind of is, you know, the way to go now with that. So, so in a nutshell, that, that's sort of the behind the scenes. It is a lot of work, and I  think one of the things people don't understand is that it's constant. It's throughout the year. You know, we're booking trips for 2026 and 2027 now. And so, for a lot of people, these are trip of a  lifetime and two, even three years in advance is what we have to do in terms of booking.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And then, you know, on the trip, I imagine, you know, one, you're kind of, you know, it's not all fishing for you, right, cause you're kind of being the kind of the policeman and the concierge, and you’re probably taking extra rods and extra gear and all kinds of stuff like that, too, right?

Tim Flagler: Exactly. And, yeah, I haven't fished in the front of a drift boat in years and years, if that tells you anything. You know, it's about the guests first and foremost. And I’m there fishing. Fishing is a small, honestly, a small part of it for me. I love doing it. I love participating in it, but it really is about the guests having the best time possible. Yeah, even if that means me taking a day off and staying back at the lodge with somebody, maybe they're, you know, not feeling well or just wanna hang out, something like that. Happy to do it.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. It's an interesting thing. You know, it's kind of funny. I was thinking, I think I fished with Andes Drifters back in 2006. And I actually have my patch here on my recording table. And, it's kind of amazing. I mean I, you know, like you, I've known Gustavo forever, actually. I'll be sure to put a link to the interview I did with him. But you know they've got a massive operation now under Set where they're guiding Dorado plus everything kind of down in the traditional Patagonia region. You know, what subset of that are you hosting with them?

Tim Flagler: Well, I have to back up a little bit because I've been doing trips with them at Spring Creek Lodge for quite a few years now. And I've also done different lodges with them for Golden Dorado up in Northern Argentina at the Ibera marsh which is just, if you ever have a chance to go, it's one of the most magical places I've ever been. I can't even describe what it's like up there, and the Dorado fishing is fabulous. Not necessarily the largest Golden Dorado, but they also have a program at Itati Lodge on the Paraná river and a new one Jetu'u which is back in another marsh that's off uh the Paraná . Incredible Golden Dorado fishing up there. Just wild, beautiful facility at Itati, incredible food. I won't spoil any of the surprises, but there are surprises throughout the trip that they do that just blow you away. Spring Creek Lodge down, more, it's northern Patagonia on the classic rivers, the Chimehuin, Collón Curá, Malleo, Alumine, probably forgetting some. 

But the one having done that trip for years and years, I always go at the end of their season, so April into May. It's getting to be Patagonia late fall, and so they're kind of winding up for the season. And I talked to the guides and it's like, “You guys have been guiding for six months straight. What are you gonna do? You gonna go home and you're going to hang out with the family for a while?” Almost to a man, almost to a guide, they said “No, we're gonna go fish the the Limay Medio.” And I'm like, “What are you crazy? You know, you've been guiding for six months, and you're gonna go fishing for a week-long float on the Limay?” And it's like. “Yeah.”

So, you hear that enough from enough guides, and you gotta go for yourself. And I went for the first time last year, Marvin. It’s, you know, a full-six day float, camping on the river every night on Malleo, gigundo brown trout, spectacular. Kind of smaller browns and rainbows, but pretty much as many as you want. Dry fly fishing, even that time of year for them. But people go there for these, just huge, huge brown trout. Big minnow eaters. It's a minnow hatch that happens down there. And that's, that's kind of what you're chasing. And so that is, that's an amazing trip. 

But I also know that they have, probably a little out of my price range, but a heli fishing operation on waters that people have never fished. Way, way up in northern Patagonia, and you know, really accessible only by helicopter. So yeah, they got a lot going on. 

Marvin Cash: And I would say the amazing thing is, you know, to a man they are super hardcore, right? Like, it's not like, oh, you know, it's not like the hand goes, oh, we've had eight hours, get your stuff, we're going home. I mean they will literally fish until like you can't fish anymore.

Tim Flagler: Yeah, well, and I'm gonna dog Gustavo out here because it's kind of a funny story. II'll abbreviate it, but I think it was my first year down there. It was like kind of an exploratory trip. And we're floating down, think, I hope it was a Chimehuin. Pretty sure it was the Chimehuin. And I was floating with Gustavo. You know, he's the owner of Set Fly Fishing. It's a big operation, but he's also a guide. And so we're floating down and he's kind of holding back on the oars. And the other boat is getting ahead of us by quite a bit. And he goes, “We'll let those guys go out of sight. We're gonna sneak in here cause it's a place I know.” And we got into this little. It was kind of a gravel bar with water dumping over it, and just full on mayfly hatch. And so I'm there shooting video, and he, I handed him my rod, I let him fish. I needed the video, and so. But it's actually on my YouTube channel video of this. Gustavo, in one hour, we timed it, 27 fish on dry flies in one hour. And honestly he was like a little kid, you know, like a 15 year old who just, just hooked his first dry fly fish. And watching him go to town, fish, and the smile on his face makes  you realize that, you know, big business, all that stuff aside, first of all, he's a great angler, great guide, and just thoroughly, thoroughly enjoys what he does, which is super important.

Marvin Cash: Absolutely. And you know, it's interesting too, right, because your trips in Montana are kind of off the beaten path, you know, even by Montana standards. So you're not down there, you know, kind of in the thick of humanity in southwest Montana.

Tim Flagler: Yeah, yeah, it's northwest Montana. And it's a tailwater. The Libby Dam is huge and they release water in a very angler friendly manner, let's put it that way. And so when I go there, end of July, beginning of August, flows have generally kind of stabilized for the summer. They've been stepping down since runoff. And so it's really nice. I mean it's cold water coming out of the Libby dam, and we don't have to deal with “hoot owl” restrictions the way a lot of other rivers and areas in Montana have to deal with at that time of year. So it's very, very dependable. And you know, when I have guests come out there, you can be assured that they're gonna be fishing each and every day because of the water conditions. And you know very, very few other outfitters on the Kootenai, we see very, very few boats. Really remarkable fishery. 

And I also got to say that Tim Linehan, he's another one. He and Joanne had the business for over 30 years now. And you get into the boat with Tim Linehan, and it's like you're with a little kid. It's like again his passion, his enthusiasm for what he does, it's just contagious. You just can't believe that somebody, after that long, that many times down that river would still get as wound up as he does about fishing it.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, that's, that's super neat. And tell us a little bit about what makes, you know, Spruce Creek such a special place that you know, what is it? Five presidents have fished there, right?

Tim Flagler: Yeah, it's, yeah, Spruce,  Spruce is interesting. For those of you that don't know, it’s a very small stream. It dumps into the Little Juniata river, which is a spectacular fishery on its own. Wild browns, really great bug hatches. But, Spruce is, it's just. Yeah, presidents have fished there. I actually, one time, years ago, was doing video work for someone else, running trips there, and was pulling in the driveway at the lower property, and there was a car coming out, and there was a woman in it. And he pulled over like she wanted to talk. And I rolled down my window, and she rolled down hers. She looked very familiar. And I thought maybe is she a friend of my mom's? You know, was about that age and finally pulled down into the lodge. And, Phil Gay, a friend of mine who was running that trip. He said, “Did you see Sandy on your way in?” And I said, “Who is that? She looks so familiar.” It was Sandra Day O'Connor. She had been at the lodge. And he goes, you're, you're an idiot. Duh. But, yeah, friend of my mom's. Sure, Tim.

Marvin Cash: There you go. So if folks wanna get more information on your trips, Tim, where should they go?

Tim Flagler: Just to, we have a website. It's not the greatest website in the world, but tightlinevideo dot com. And if nothing else, you can get an email address and, get in touch with us through email, and you will most likely talk to my wife, Joan, rather than me. I'm kind of, as you mentioned, on the road a lot or out guiding. And just not especially accessible. I'm also not really good with a calendar, as it turns out, and so they can talk to her. And we'll, we'll get information out to you and, or, you know, set up a Zoom call if you're interested in that way we can show video or, you know, arrange to meet you at a fly fishing show. Whatever you need.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, and I would imagine, too, cause I kind of, you know, watch you kind of out of the corner of my own social media. You probably are doing talks on the club circuit in New Jersey.

Tim Flagler: Yeah, well, in New Jersey and elsewhere. You know, when I  travel, I'll often stop. Joan doesn't really let me have a night off. I don't know what that's about. And so even if I'm on my way somewhere, you know, maybe out to fish the driftless, I'll have one or two talks that I, you know, give along the way. We did the tour out of the different clubs out in California this year. I think ten different clubs. And, so, yeah, we're kind of all over the place doing presentations.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And I can't let you go without asking you to share your worst travel experience or disaster.

Tim Flagler: Well, it starts even before I got there. And it was my very first trip to Argentina. The folks at then Andes Drifters had invited me down, graciously invited me down, and I had prepared everything. I mean, just researched, you know, a little bit of video gear, fly fishing gear, all the stuff I needed for weather. And Joan took me to JFK airport and got, brought everything up to the desk and went to check in for a flight, and my passport was six months out of date. 
Marvin Cash: Oohhh

Tim Flagler: So, in terms of travel nightmares, fortunately, again, the folks at Set were incredibly gracious and let me hold off for a couple days.I don't know how much money we end up spending getting an expedited passport and going into New York for a day and getting it at the passport office there. And it actually wasn't so bad. We got to eat some great pizza in New York, and got the passport. But, yeah, if you are traveling internationally, folks, check your passport. The other thing that we've heard is that even if your passport has got six months left on it, there are countries that will not let you in. You know, if you overstay you're welcome, for example, and your passport expires. So, you know, get a new passport, even if there's six months left on the old one.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, and then I would pile on and say, definitely buy the travel insurance and the, you know,  the health insurance too, right?

Tim Flagler: Yep. Yeah. Especially, you know, Covid era, things  like that. The other thing is, you know, to communicate get a SIM card for your phone. That's a big one. Learn how to use WhatsApp. Amazing. When you have wifi, how clear and crisp it is, even on video calls. Yeah, there's a lot to learn about travel.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And so, Tim, before I let you go tonight, is there anything else you wanna share with our listeners?

Tim Flagler: No, just really watch for us. We've got some new videos coming up. Some stuff that, not just fly tying, stuff on fly fishing as well.  I will be at the International Tying Symposium here in New Jersey, in Somerset. Another month or so, I guess, month and a half. And then Joan and I will be doing the whole fly fishing show circuit this winter. So from January all the way through to March. And then I just kind of am putting together the details now. I'll be down on the Sowbug Roundup again this year, which was a ton of fun last year.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, I just saw that email.

Tim Flagler: Yeah. And this, this time I'm spending a couple of extra days, Marvin. I'm gonna fish down there on the Norfolk and on the White. Without a doubt. That, that was pretty, pretty brutal going down there. You know, tying for a couple of days and going and seeing that water and not having time to fish. That's not gonna happen again.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, that sounds like a good call. And so, Tim, if folks wanna follow your adventures kind of at the vice, you know, on the road and on the water, where should they go?

Tim Flagler: Well, Instagram and Facebook. Unfortunately our Instagram account got hacked, about a month and a half, two months ago and we totally lost the account and you know, 100, I don't know how many, how many followers we had that we lost. So if you haven't heard from me on Instagram, you can find me on Instagram now. I believe the new one is tightlinevideo. I hope that's right. And Facebook is, has been the same all the way through. Also on YouTube to find the tying videos, uh, where just you can search on YouTube “tightline video”. It will get them all. All the videos are also available on the Orvis, in the Orvis Fly Fishing library as well as the MidCurrent  fly tying library. So quite a few different places and even on the Trout Unlimited national website.

Marvin Cash: And I will drop links to all that stuff in the show notes for you.

Tim Flagler: Oh, super. Marvin would appreciate that. Yeah. That losing that Instagram was a, kind of a, it makes you realize how vulnerable you are with stuff like that.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's interesting. I think I told you, you know, that happened to Tom at the Drake and…

Tim Flagler: Yeah

Marvin Cash: …luckily he was able to, I think it was Cameron Mortensen at the Fiberglass Manifesto. He's in law enforcement in South Carolina, and he was able to help them find a solution. But I know you weren't quite so lucky.

Tim Flagler: Yeah, yeah. And you realize how much work it was, you know, generating that following. And then all of, I mean in the blink, it's gone. And so, yeah, just be careful out there, guys. Don't  click those funny links.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And backup your data. 3, 2, 1, I'll say that too. And so before I let you go, Tim, how many flies have you tied?

Tim Flagler: Nine, since we started, but I've been tying very fast, so.

Marvin Cash: It's all good. It sounds like maybe they have a bead on them, right?

Tim Flagler: They do, yeah. It's just. It's a bead in three turns of the EggStatic. And I've got yellow, orange, and kind of a pinky color done now. So, yeah, three each. It's such an effective fly. These are tight, size 16s. We have low, low water here in New Jersey, Pennsylvania. So a little smaller, and they look really good.

Marvin Cash: Well, that's awesome. Well, listen, Tim, I super appreciate you carving some time out for me this evening.

Tim Flagler: Oh, no, thank you, Marvin. Yeah, we've been trying to do this for a while. Glad we finally got it done.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm sure our paths will cross on the show circuit.

Tim Flagler: Very good, sir. Have a good night.

Marvin Cash: You too. Take care. Well, folks, we hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Don't forget to check out TroutRoutes Pro @maps.troutroutes.com Use ArtFly 20, a-r-t-f-l-y-two-zero, all one word, to get 20% off of your membership. Tight lines, everybody.