S6, Ep 43: PJ Smith Unravels the Driftless Mysteries

Marvin Cash: Hey, folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly. On this episode, I'm joined by PJ Smith of PJ's guide Service in the Driftless. PJ shares his fly fishing journey, what makes the Driftless a must fish, and his tips for cracking the Driftless code. I think you're really going to enjoy this one. But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out. And we're excited to partner with our friends at Jesse Brown's to bring the Chocklett Factory to Charlotte on May 4. Blane will be teaching private tying classes, discussing predator and prey, and sharing his favorite rod, reel and line combos. Check out the link in the show notes for more details. Now, on to our interview. 

Well, PJ, welcome to the Articulate Fly.

PJ Smith: Thank you very much for having me. Looking forward to talking all about fly fishing and fishing here in the Driftless. So, yeah, thank you.

Marvin Cash: You bet, me too. And, you know, we have a tradition on the Articulate Fly. We like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

PJ Smith: Earliest fishing memory. That one is probably fishing with my grandfather in our farm in Missouri. At a, oh, we've got several farm ponds there and catching largemouth bass and bluegill, conventional gear. And, yeah, it was just one of those things. You know, I got to spend my summers at the farm with my grandparents and got to fish a lot. And so, yeah, that's kind of the earliest that I can remember walking through the pasture. I think I was probably about two or three years old. And, yeah, just catching big bass on probably a Zebco.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, one of those green Zebco 33’s probably.

PJ Smith: Yeah, more than likely that. Or, I don't know, we had several different Zebco’s, but they were all pretty much in that same line - the closed face, spinning rails. 

Marvin Cash: Yeah, I had to call no mas on the bait casters. I can never quite get the hang of those.

PJ Smith: Yeah, as I got older, I actually got into them for a little bit. And, yeah, you can. Well, nowadays they're so, like, I don't know, they're almost engineered where you can't backlash. But, back in my day, it was definitely one that you had to keep your thumb there and throttle it down once you got casting in that. But, yeah, things have come a long, long way, that's for sure. 

Marvin Cash: Yeah. So, PJ, when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing?

PJ Smith: Oh, the dark side. I had just finished up with college and had started working at the Morton Arboretum. And at that time, I was pretty much fishing ultralights, all kinds of stuff like that. And just really kind of was really intrigued by it. Had seen the movie River Runs Through It. So probably right around 95, 96, my mom had a friend that she worked with, and he knew fly fishing. I had a place that I could fish, and then he knew enough about fly fishing to kind of get me started. Right at that same time, I was dating my wife, Donna. So we both fished. We went out. She kind of fell in love with the casting, and I just fell in love with fly fishing. And we just really, I don't know, I went head first, full throttle. Do not stop, do not pass go. I just hammered down into fly fishing. Just loved it. And, got in with a great shop at that time,Marcos Vergara ran Fly and Field in Glen Ellyn. And, met some great guys there that just kind of helped me out. Time flies and all that. But Marcos was a huge factor. Helped me out greatly. Hooked me up with gear that I could afford. That was really good quality equipment. I think the first one that I had was a Five Weight Orvis, Rocky Mountain - that was the first one. I caught a lot of bass on it. Still have it. It's a two piece. It's old school. So, yeah, that's kind of the start to it. And we just kind of kept going from there.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, pretty neat. And so, you know, obviously, it's been, you know, gosh, almost 30 years. Who are some other folks, other than, uh, Marcos, that have mentored you on your fly fishing journey? What have they taught you?

PJ Smith: So, another one that sticks out really well for me is Bill Harrell. He was a guide up here in the Driftless. You know, he really… I mean, that was kind of my first trip. We kind of took a trout school up here in the Driftless, and Bill Harrell was the teacher on that. And it just… I don't know, we just, Don and I fell in love with this area. He kind of taught us to just take it all in. Not just focus on the fishing, but take it all in. Like, you know, you need to see what's coming off, what bugs. And his approach was super simple. You just, he's like, you don't have to know what the name of the fly is. You just have to know that there's flies coming off and they're about a size ten or twelve or 20, whatever. And then, just look in your box and see if you got a fly that kind of matches. And, so that was a really good way to learn for me. I'm kind of a visual learner. You know, he also had a thing where he could cast pretty well. Again, up here in the Driftless, you have to cast fairly well. But he's like, it doesn't matter how it gets there. The fish don't care. Once it's on the water, that's when they care. So just kind of worked it that way. And then, of course, Marcos at the shop is another guy that kind of mentored me quite a bit. Steve Finnelli, I hope I'm saying that name, it's been a long time. But he was a shop guy there at Fly and Field. And, we always used to hang out and he was from Montana. Just would tell awesome stories. So I always took it in. And that probably another real good mentor of mine has been, Kip Vieth. He's a guide over in Minnesota. And we've done many, many trips with Kip, having him guide us for smallmouth and muskie. And so always, he's always been a great guy to just bounce ideas off. And when I decided to become Orvis endorsed, he was already endorsed and kind of helped me get onto that track. So pretty happy about having all those guys in my corner and kind of cheering me on. So, and definitely helping out whenever I needed, needed someone to at least listen to me and bounce some ideas off of them.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, very neat.
And for folks that aren't familiar, you know, I know your home waters are located in the Driftless. You want to let folks kind of know a little bit more about the area, and what makes it such a special place to chase trout?

PJ Smith: So, the Driftless, where we're at, is basically southwest Wisconsin. It's affectionately called the Dripless. It does go into other states, it goes into Wisconsin. It's Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa and a little bit of Illinois. So obviously, it's split by the Mississippi river. And what it is, is an area that the glaciers basically missed every time that the glaciers would advance. This area was kind of like a big giant rock in a stream. The glaciers just kind of went around. I do know on the Minnesota and Iowa side there was either one or probably like one or two advancements that actually kind of got into their side a little bit. But on the, the Wisconsin side it's pretty much been untouched. It's an area that steep valleys, erosion is kind of the biggest thing. It kind of started off as a plateau type area and then erosion has kind of caused it to be what it is today. So down at the bottom of all these valleys is usually spring-fed small creeks. And they can be just a few feet wide to 20 or 30 feet wide at the best. So they're pretty small intimate creeks that hold mostly brown and brook trout. The brookies are the, the natives here. And then obviously browns were brought in early on in that. But the spring fed water helps keep the water clean and cold. There is a lot of natural reproducing trout but they do some stocking at times. It's just numbers, and then, you know sometimes we've had some flood events that kind of change things up. So there is stocking that does go on in that. So yeah, definitely very special. There's areas around here that are like no other place on earth. You know you can really look into it as you get towards the Mississippi. You can definitely kind of see where it, you know the tall bluffs and just the sheer rock cliffs that are that are there. It's pretty spectacular. And then all throughout this region you can just go up and down all the valleys and get lost but you always seem to find your way out of them. So, definitely very fun.

Marvin Cash: Ah very very neat. And I would imagine too, having relatively small low gradient streams that don't have a lot of structure in them probably makes for a pretty technical fishery, right?

PJ Smith: Oh yeah it is. I like to say it's, it's definitely the hardest, easiest place to catch trout. They are spooky but yet there's so many of them. You know if you can get your fly into the water you can pretty much catch something. We just have the numbers per mile. I've heard as much as you know 4000 per mile give or take. Which is quite a bit. But on that same aspect we have with them being so small the edges grow up.That's why right now here in the springtime, now that the snow and everything's kind of mushed all the brush and weeds and stuff down, it's pretty easy to get around. But at the same time that makes it really tough because they can see you coming from a long ways away. So, yeah, so as the, as the year goes on the weeds and grass and all that brush starts growing pretty heavy and it just makes it tougher and tougher to get that cast in there. And that's where accuracy is a huge deal. Being able to just understand like, like a good roll cast, bow and arrow cast, kind of how I call it, like my little flip cast. Even doing some downstream work, just letting the fly kind of trickle down. And that is, is definitely helpful. There are some open areas. Some of the, some of the landowners are actually doing a little bit of mowing in that. So you know, there is, there is some stuff that, as a beginner you can get into. I've been, you know, obviously fishing up here for so long, you start learning all those areas and that. So we can go from fairly easy to get into, not a lot of brush, not a lot of trees to, super technical if you want to get into that. So there, there's a lot of variety for sure. But it is, it makes for fun fishing. And it'll just make you a better, better fisher person all the way around because it, once you can fish here and catch fish, you can go anywhere and be able to cast and be accurate. So it's definitely a helpful thing too.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, and so, you know, in terms of, I understand, you know, the, the challenge, the casting challenges, you know, when you've got tall brush and you can't really have a back cast. But you know, what about some sort of on the water strategies? You know, once you've got your fly in the water where you're, I imagine you're fishing to really clear water. Probably a lot of, it's probably pretty shallow and it's also probably relatively smooth. You know, what are some suggestions for folks to be a little bit more effective in those situations?

PJ Smith: So once you, once you get that fly in the water, you know, everybody's heard of a dead drift and that. But we actually will find if we do our dry fly fishing actually adding a little, we call it the, I call it the dry fly shake. You kind of get that fly to kind of move a little bit. Live bugs move. So, you know you need to put a little action into them. So I don't mind skating a little bit on some of my flies. They'll take it on the swing, which is pretty cool. If you're doing like nymphing and that. Just trying to like get those flies in without a huge splash, again it's pretty hard with the heavier tungsten and that. So I, I try to limit, trying to do a huge splash sometimes just adding a little extra tippet to make that presentation a little softer. I do kind of, I fall into the, keep it really simple. So all of my leaders start off at seven and a half feet, either a three or a four x. And then I just add on, tip it as I need it. That way I kind of know exactly how long my leaders are most of the time. Unless I've had to cut them apart and make them super long and that. But most of the time you can get away with something like that on a real open stream where the fish are being a little more finicky. Adding a little more tip bit is definitely helpful. It doesn't have to be smaller, but it just gives that a little easier presentation. And then I try to, I'll use a more of a dry fly as opposed to an indicator. Especially the harder indicators like the ones that are like made of plastic in that, they work good, but they're just, they're a little bit too much on these small creeks. So I go with a, like a larger, almost like a hopper rubber leg stimulator. We have a fly around here called the hippie stomp. It's actually from out west. Highly effective around here. And the nice thing about that is like now you've actually put two hooks on the water. So your chances of hooking a fish are, are doubled now. So, it makes it pretty easy. Those foam, indicator style flies are really buoyant so they stay up pretty good. So yeah, so it's. Again, I try to keep it pretty simple. There's a lot of good techniques. Like anytime we get a rain around here we usually will try to switch over to streamers as well. Because once that water stains up, boy, they'll, they'll actively go after streamers and stuff. So it's kind of, there's a lot here, you can learn a lot of different techniques, a lot of Euro guys around here. And that, and that's always something that we kind of dabble in a little bit. It's something that is kind of on our to do list around here as well. Learning that a little bit more. But, yeah, so it's one of those that you can kind of run the gamut. If you're a dry fly guy, you can do really well nymph streamers, so.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, what's not to like is they like to say, and, you know, you know, PJ, when did you get the guide bug?

PJ Smith: Oh, the guide bug was probably not too long after I started fishing up here. I think I'm right now I'm in my 14th season, give or take. I'd have to look back at, see if I can find my original guide license that I had. But, yeah, we were coming up here so often. We would come up here throughout the summer and fish, and every once in a while I'd run into Bill and you know, I'd always talk about it, like, oh, it'd be kind of cool to be a guide and all that. And finally one day, he kind of just told me, he's like, you know, either do it or don't do it. But he goes, you just, just shut up about it. Like, he goes, I don't care what you do, but you've worked here, you've done enough fishing in here. He goes, just do it. So that was, I think I had been fishing up here for almost 15 years. So, yeah, that was a push that I needed. I'd always kind of helped friends when we were fishing together. So I guess I was kind of guiding them without actually guiding them, you know a friend trip. I always wanted to make sure that they caught fish, whether that was fishing for bass or pan fish or trout. You know, I'd go on some of our trips with the club that we belong to in Illinois, Drift. And then I'd always just kind of help out the new guys that weren't totally sure how to do some stuff. So, yeah, that kind of got me started into it. And then I got my guide license for Wisconsin. And, yeah, just kind of went from there. Was working a full time job and pretty much driving up a lot of weekends and doing the guide thing, so.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, and so did you always just guide for yourself or did you kind of start guiding through, through shops in the area?

PJ Smith: No, I, I've always just been an independent. I, you know, I, at that time, I just didn't feel confident enough to, like, go into a shop and that probably should have at times. But again, hindsight's always 2020. And as you know, as far as things go now, I'm happy that I could do what I can do. I did it all on, on my own, but with a lot of help from friends and family and that. So I, I just stayed independent. 2018, I left my full time job and went full time into the guiding world. At that same time I decided, I, went out to a Orvis guide rendezvous, really liked their program, and decided to become Orvis endorsed. So, I guess that's kind of the thing there. And my wife at the time was actually working for Orvis in Madison at their store. So, yeah, so she, she's kind of been on the shop side of it. I've been just the guide and the guy that ties the knots and rows the boat. So I just you know, that's what I like doing and you know that. Yeah, just guiding and helping people get into some fish and all that and hoping they have a fun day. 

Marvin Cash: Yeah, so, you know, it's interesting, we're, I think, we're of a similar vintage. Tell me a little bit more about how you made the decision to kind of quit the safe full time thing and become a full time fishing guide.

PJ Smith: Yeah, that one is a good one. Yeah, I graduated college, and graduated college on a Saturday, drove home Sunday, started work Monday at the Morton Arboretum. And 26 years later, the day before I turned 50, I left there and became a full time guide. Yeah, I mean, I had done a full time job in the Chicagoland area. And I don't know, you just get to a point where you just need to make a change and, yeah, I mean, I was, yeah, I just had that drawing to just become a guide, that's what I wanted to do. I figured if I didn't do it by the time I was 50, I wouldn't ever do it and then I'd have that regret. So, yeah, it was a tough one. Stepping off that cliff was very tough. You know, I mean, we were smart enough to know that it wasn't going to be easy. You know, I had been guiding for many years part time and that. And then all of a sudden now I'm going to hopefully try to make a living out of it. So. But, we had planned, we had savings and, we actually had a house up here in the Driftless. So it kind of made things easy to transition and that. So, yeah, just kind of made that jump and hoped for the best. And I held on to a few things. I kept my CDL license just in case I needed to go back and be a truck driver, heavy equipment operator. But yeah, I've never looked back. I've been happy after that. Wake up every day and feel kind of blessed to be here. And luckily, with my wife being in the industry and being understanding, she was right there with me and said, yeah, let's do it. So, but it was tough, there's no doubt about it. There's days that I just hope that someone calls and books a trip.

Marvin Cash: Is that kind of the biggest challenge? Is just kind of keeping your plate full or are there other things that have kind of surprised you, kind of making that transition from a kind of a safer gig to working for yourself?

PJ Smith: Yeah, I would definitely say just keeping busy. You know, COVID didn't help. It helped, but it didn't help. At the same time, got a lot of people outside. So there's a lot of people that needed help in getting into fly fishing. On that same thing, it didn't help because we were shut down the entire time that COVID was happening and that. So, so that was a little tough. Right now, we're just kind of really ramping back up. We're doing a lot of shows, doing programs at shop, wherever we can, going to like TU meetings and other clubs. We're trying to do meetings. And I've got several PowerPoint programs that I give throughout kind of this upper Midwest area. So, yeah, so I kind of focus on that. That's how word of mouth kind of helps, too. And then obviously being Orvis endorsed now is really big for us because that really has kind of pushed it a little bit more. But we're always, always looking to fill some more dates. You know, there's obviously you know, the off season where we're looking at trying to fill some of those that time with some other stuff that we're looking into.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, and so, you know, it's interesting because, I mean, you can you talk a little bit more about kind of the process of becoming Orvis endorsed? I know, you know, it's kind of a little bit of a mystery, right? And then there's a lot of lore around it. But can you kind of tell us a little bit about the process and kind of why you thought having that credential was so important?

PJ Smith: A lot of it had to do with Kip Vieth. He, I, I kind of was talking to him about it and we ended up going to an OGR out in Asheville. And just you know, their their whole program, the fact that they were letting at that time they were anybody that was kind of on a pro staff like a guide could come out and go to their stuff and it just kind of made it nice and an easy transition. They were pretty open and pretty forthcoming with all their information. They talked about how they were revamping some of their program and they were going to kind of start putting guides first again. You know, if you needed help with some stuff, they would help you get that, you know, if you needed rods repaired and stuff like that. Although now it's a little different. You know, it's easier to get parts and stuff now. So I just, I enjoyed that part of it. Again, when I got back from that, that trip, I talked a little bit more with Kip and then I reached out to Orvis and we basically set up a time to meet. So they, they actually kind of vetted me. I know there was other people that I'm sure were called and asked if I was legit. And, so yeah, that kind of started it. And then I ended up having to basically do a trip with Pete Kutzer from Morvis. And, yeah, so it, it was kind of weird. Cause it was actually a musky trip. By the time he could get out it was musky time. Trout fishing had already closed. So we did a musky trip. And ironically, that day, the whole week before, it was super nice weather and all that. And then he comes out and the weather is absolutely terrible. It rained so much, there's probably eight inches of water in the bottom of my boat. So that made it fun. But we moved some fish and yeah, it just, that's you know, it was fun. And they realized that I was really just wanting to make trips an adventure and take care of clients. And I wasn't just some guy looking to just get into it all about the money or whatever. It's like, I want people to enjoy their trip. They're paying me to basically go on a vacation and that. So yeah. So I was approved, and I think my approval went through sometime in 2019 or early 2020. And so I became an Orvis endorsed guide by then.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, so it's just in time for COVID, right?

PJ Smith: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Not exciting, but you know, that time was a little rough because it…I was like, wow, did I make a mistake? But we got through it, you know, it know, it's stuff that I can't control. So I try to, you know, not focus on that. And just focus on what I can control. It's kind of like the weather. I can't control the weather. I can't you know, control stuff like that. So I try to not dwell on that. It's hard not to, but that's what I try to at least strive for, so.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, and I guess so, you know, they, they vet you, and then, you know, you're, you're kind of put on the website. And I know they have great support services because I've talked to other Orvis endorsed guys, and it's like if you break a rod they're literally Fedexing rods out to you. And then I guess, right, there's an annual membership fee to kind of stay in the program. Is that generally how it works?

PJ Smith: Yep. Yeah, yep. Yeah, and they do still make sure, like, they, they come out or, you know, with COVID and that. That's kind of changed some stuff up. But you know, I talked to P. Kutzer, and that I wouldn't say frequently, but I talk to him pretty much yearly if not more. So we're just making sure things are on the right track. You know, obviously, if there's any problems with clients and they call Orvis, you know, and it becomes a problem, and they obviously talk to you, but not any of the, of that. You know, we don't. We don't have problems with clients. They, I, again, I try to work with them and do the best that I can for everybody. So, so, yeah, if you, if you strive to reach their goals, you don't have problems. So. So, yeah.

Marvin Cash: In which, which is a great segue into my next question, PJ, is what do you think is the secret to being a good guide?

PJ Smith: Well, you know, everybody will be like, oh, you got to catch a ton of fish and all that. And I can tell you right now, you know, I do catch a lot of fish at times. But to be honest, to be a good guide, you have to be able to listen and kind of read people, understand them, understand what they're not saying to you along with what they are saying to you. I've seen a lot of guys out there and they're like, oh, you know, 100 fish days and all that. And to be honest with you, when things are good, yeah, you can get 100 fish day. It's not an impossibility. But it's the days that you don't catch any fish, that's, that's when a true guide is going to shine. You know, most of the time, like I said when it's easy, it's easy. When it's hard, that's when you'll find out who a real good guide is. So I really try to strive for just being the best I can be, giving 110% of myself. Yeah, I mean, I just, you know, I want them to be happy. I want them to go home and feel like they had a good time. Yeah, I do try to get them fish. But some of it's not all about that. A lot of my clients, they want to learn something, so I try to teach them. Like, you know, we talk about the Driftless, or we talk about, like, casting, or we talk about different flies and stuff like that. So it's not always about that. You just, you know, you try to help them kind of on their journey as well. They, you know, they've trusted you to take them out. So, yeah, so I try to teach and you know, if anything goes wrong, I try to be, be there to help solve their problem. So, yeah, so I just, yeah, listen to their needs. And that's kind of hard for some people because they don't always, like, I'm a really, I'm a good listener and I can sense when something's not going right, even if they don't say anything. You can just, I can just tell when something's not right and then I'll just kind of keep prying until I get it. And sometimes we just sit back a little bit, talk a little bit, you know, because sometimes it's not always about just the fishing part of it. I mean, I get a lot of people that have told me a lot more than I, I wanted to know. You know, it's like, you know, people have outside lives and sometimes when you're fishing, it comes out quite a bit, so. 

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's like being a bartender on the water without a beer right? 

PJ Smith: Exactly. I'm a really cheap therapist, that's for sure. Yeah, so. 

Marvin Cash: And so, you know, what do you think PJ is the biggest misconception that people have about the life of a fishing guide?

PJ Smith: Oh, well, you know, if you look at Instagram, it's, it's all perfect. Every day is, is bluebird day, and you catch tons of fish and you get free, free deals and everybody gives you a fly rod and it's just super easy. And that, that is probably the biggest thing, that is so untrue. There's a lot of days where, you know, I've got a trip tomorrow, and I've been working on this trip for the last two or three days now. So I’ve, I've scouted water, checked everything out, got my boat already, checked all my rods. So it's, you know, it's not just the day that you're on the water, it's, it's the days beforehand. I planned out meal prep and all that. You know, just making sure everything's ready, going through flies. So, yeah, so it's, it’s a lot more. And then on top of it, when you're not getting those calls or you got days off, and I'm going to the laundry mat doing laundry and stuff like that. So it's not all glamorous. There's a lot of can be downtime. And then seasonal depression is kind of a weird one, too. During the winter when we're not fishing as much, that can kind of get to you. You know, you get the gray days and you're just like, oh, my gosh. And some days you're like, I'm just going to sleep in. And other days you're like, okay, I need to get out of bed and get some work done, so. But, yeah, it's not always what you see Instagram showing you just probably the smallest and just the best parts. You know, it's tough. I mean, you know, from paying all your insurance and guide fees and making sure that you're legal and all that, it's, it all adds up. So again, it's, it's not just calling yourself a guide, it's, it's really working hard at it.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's funny you say that. I was talking to somebody earlier today. And you know I was trying to explain to them they, they don't really fly fish but we're kind of talking about the guide game and you know that whole disconnect where like, you know the client is there to have fun but you're working, right?

PJ Smith: Yes.

Marvin Cash: And so that's a huge thing. And you know what they don't understand is, you know, if you meet them at 7:30 you probably got up at 5:30 to get the boat ready to do lunches. And then at the end of the day you've got to go home and clean the boat out. You know, maybe wash it and get ready for the next day. And so, you know, a ten or twelve day on the water is really a 16 hour day without doing anything. And you know it's funny cause I talked to my buddies that got out west and it's like, you know they got 13, 14 days in a row and they're so excited to get a laundry day. It's crazy.

PJ Smith: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean it is, yeah it's, it's, it's a tough life. It's, it's fun. There is definitely days where you're just like, yeah, this is exactly why I guide all the time. And I've, you know I, you try to have more of those days than days you're like, oh my gosh, why did I decide to do this for a living? But I mean, and I'm definitely not at that point. I've been doing this for a long time and every day I'm just happy to be out on the water and that. But it's, yeah, I mean I have to do laundry and you know we have some lodging at our house and, and stuff. And, so yeah, I'm like making beds, all the glamorous stuff, you know, going to the grocery and getting groceries for the next week and making sure I've got everybody's dietary needs taken care of, you know, so. And then making lunches that we're all going to be happy with. I try to simplify it as best I can, but then sometimes I try to change it up and maybe a little more gourmet if I got somebody that's like got a birthday or something special is going on or. You know, I've had some clients that have needs, you know like celiac. So I got to make sure everything's cleaned out and so they, you know, so they have a good day because I don't want them to get sick or anything like that. So, yeah, so it's a lot of planning. I take a lot of notes with all my clients, so I know what's going on and that. So I just, yeah, I mean, it's long days. I do try to, I'm definitely not doing the hours like I used to do when I was a heavy equipment operator. Some of those days were almost 24 hours straight. But, yeah, there's days I get in late and then, you know, if you're hosting some people now you're also spending more time with them afterwards and that, and I, you know, once you get done with that now you've got to come home and get ready for the next day. So, we try to be, take care of ourselves though, too, because you don't want to get to over the top, so that you have a meltdown in that, so.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, that's, that's no good. And you know, the other thing, too, right, is we talked about it a little bit. You also guide for smallmouth and muskie, right?

PJ Smith: Yeah, I, I will run my boat for smallies, pike and muskie. So I run a stealthcraft drift boat. And then I just added a stealthcraft raft. So I'm one of their ambassadors. And that, that's really broadens my repertoire for guiding, for fish. You know, the Driftless is awesome and all that, but we're starting to see summers where the temps are just getting way too hot for the trout. So we, you know, years ago, I was like, you know, if I want to be a more rounded guide, I need to add this aspect to fishing. And, and it's kind of cool. I've even, I even do a little bit of trout stuff. Early season. I'll run my boat for trout here in the Driftless and one of the few spots you can get them. But, yeah, I mean, smallies, pike and muskie, that, they're super fun. Adds a whole new game to it. The rods are much bigger. You can, you know, the cool part is you're in a boats and you can see some pretty cool water. And all of those fisher boy, they love to eat and they put a good bend in your rod. So it, it's fun.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, and so are you chasing those guys kind of in the middle of the summer when it's kind of too hot for trout? So it's kind of trout early and trout late and then smallmouth pike and musky in the middle and maybe some musky kind of end of the season?

PJ Smith: Yeah, exactly. When it starts getting too warm here, it's an ideal time to switch over to smallmouth. I kind of tell people I'm, and like, this year especially, where even though we just got some water, you know, I've got to make sure that the trout survives. So I will forego doing trips here in the Driftless, even though I could probably find water that's cold enough. But, so, yeah, we'll definitely go after them. During the hot months I do a little bit of musky stuff after I'm done with my trout. Like October 15 is the last day for trout in Wisconsin here. And then I'll switch over and we start chasing muskie for a little bit. I usually go until about October, maybe a little bit into November, and then I usually just kind of take a break. I like to deer hunt in Missouri, so head to my grandparents farm for that. So, so I just kind of wrap it up. Usually by then things are getting cold and it's nice to take a break. I'm usually pretty fried from, from guiding the whole season and that. So it's good to take a break and you know, head and just kind of do my own thing, sit in the deer woods for a while and, and do that. So kind of a nice break.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, absolutely. Wait for some guys to come eat some acorns, right?

PJ Smith: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And, and they're pretty good eating, too, so I don't mind filling the freezer with them.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, and so, so, PJ, what is a day on the water like with you? You want to kind of give folks an idea of like, you know, what, what it looks like to get on a boat or to wade with you for a day?

PJ Smith: Sure. So my walk wade stuff you know, we'll just meet usually in the morning, depending on, you know, I may meet you in town or, you know, if you're staying here at our place, we get going. We try to, we may have breakfast. I always try to start with a good breakfast, whether I've got to grab it at a gas station or something. But I always need a little breakfast to get going. But, so we'll either go to breakfast or make sure everybody's got breakfast. It's a good way to start. And then we'll talk over what's going on. And then we'll get out to the water fairly quick. Again, depends on the conditions. If it's a warm one we try to start pretty early in the early early season. If it's really cold, I have no problem waiting a while until it gets a little bit warmer out at you know, 9:30, 10:00 time. But during the you know, late spring into summer part, we're probably getting going by seven and trying to get out to the water. I'll get everybody geared up. I usually try to run down and check water temps real quick just to make sure that the streams haven't warmed up too much. And then once everybody's kind of geared up, we just get started. We're you know, we're rigging rides, you know, starting in an area. And especially if you're someone that I don't know, we'll go to a spot that's maybe a little more open. Because, you know, some people like to exaggerate how good a caster they are. So yeah, in about five minutes, I can tell if you're a good caster, not a good cast or need a little work, need to get a little warmed up in that. But yeah, we'll be hitting some water with that got's fish in it. I kind of vary up. There's obviously a lot of water here on the Wisconsin side. So we'll, we'll hit different areas. Then we usually break for lunch and then head back to the truck. And we'll either move or we'll just tailgate and have lunch on the back of the truck. Or I've got a couple of spots that I can kind of like picnic and stuff like that. So we'll have a lunch. Again, I usually switch spot. It's kind of nice to vary it up. And then we'll get back on the water after lunch and basically chase trout some more. And we'll try to fish for about 8 hours, give or take. If I start seeing bugs coming off or we're getting to that you know, almost like dark 30 time. You know, we may stay out a little bit longer. Some guys ask for kind of doing some almost like night fishing, and we can vary that up, too. Usually at lunchtime we'll head back in and then like kind of take a little siesta and recharge a little bit and then head out later in the evening. So there's a lot of variable that we can do with, with my kind of fishing. Obviously, if we're in a boat, we're doing it a little different. We're getting in the boat, we're going down and having lunch on the river. So it's an “a” to “b” type trip. So, yeah, so once we're done, we just kind of wrap things up. You know, if someone's asking about flies, we go over flies and stuff like that. And then depending on what their schedule is, we may go out to dinner, you know, maybe a cocktail on the back of the truck or whatever, or just head our separate ways. However, people want to end their day and often you know, that's, that's kind of how it is. It just, and hopefully they, everybody walks away happy, and feel they got fulfilled in doing some fishing with me.

Marvin Cash: Pretty neat. And I know you mentioned this earlier…You and your wife are teaching some classes and workshops. You want to let folks know kind of what you have coming up?

PJ Smith: Sure, we are. Again, the way we learned was doing a trout school. That's kind of how I met Bill Harrell. And now that we do guiding and stuff we figured we wanted to kind of help give back and offer these classes as well. And my wife is a certified casting instructor. So we do some trout schools. We got a couple of basic beginner schools. We're doing two of them, May 4th and 5th is going to be a beginner class. And it's coed we've got. I believe we have two filled. And we still have room for a couple more people. And then May 18th and 19th, my wife is doing a women's beginner school for trout fishing. So, yeah. And then our program we have lodging here. And then we also do breakfast and lunch for people. So it's kind of all inclusive. Dinner is usually out on the town. That way we can help spread the, spread the wealth, and you can kind of, you know, it helps show you what's around town and all the fun little restaurants that are around the Driftless here. And then we're hoping to do a smallmouth trip in July, get a, a couple of boats together and do that. That's going to be July 12th to the 15th. That one's still a little bit of a work in progress thing. And then in August, August is kind of a fun time here in the Driftless. We're going to do a hopper dropper mousing weekend. And that's August 16th and 18. We hope people can get here early on Friday. So we head out Friday evening, try to get into a spot that's fairly easy to wade. It’s close to the house and that. And then, so we'll do some mousing, then, and then fish until it's pretty dark, until everybody's done, usually around 10:00 in the evening, kind of wrap it up, head back to the house, get up early in the morning, do some hopper fishing, have lunch back at the house and just kind of chill for most of the day. And then we'll head out again in the evening after dinner and do some more mousing. So we go over like the hoppers in the morning and then the mousing in the evening. And then we finish up on Sunday, getting up and doing the hopper dropper game again. So, so just some trips that we offer here and they're all kind of fun, kind of different. Again, the smally trip. Again, we're trying to work with a couple other guides that we know to help out with that. So it's hopefully going to be. That's one that we're kind of adding and hoping that wil, will go over pretty well. But the trout schools, we've been doing them for quite a while and they always, it's always kind of fun, so.

Marvin Cash: Pretty cool. And I imagine if I remember correctly, all of those classes are on your website, right?

PJ Smith: Yeah, there's if you go to my website, it's PJ Guide or pjguideservice.com. You can look on there and it's kind of got a rundown of all those classes and it's a way to connect with me, too. You can, my phone number is there, you can call or text and then obviously email me, so.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, and I'll drop a link to that in the show notes. And, PJ, is there anything else you want to share with our listeners before I let you go tonight?

PJ Smith: I don't know. I mean, fly fishing has just been super fun. I just encourage anybody that is into it, just thinking about getting into it. Got into it over COVID. If you're looking for a fun, challenging time, come fish with us here in the Driftless. But stick with it. It's definitely a sport that can just kind of change you. It's a great way to kind of just forget all your problems for a little bit. I definitely see that in myself, you know when I need to get out there  and kind of take a minute and breathe. It's always fun to get out. So, yeah, I mean, and fly fishing is definitely one of those sports that everybody is super helpful. We may not always give you all our hotspots and that, but, we will definitely try to help you with your casting and everything. So, I mean, that's, that's the beauty of fly fishing. It's just, it's been an awesome journey and we just feel so privileged to be able to help and offer this. And then also with my wife and I, living here in the Driftless is just, it's kind of a dream come true. And we certainly didn't expect to be here when we first started dating, it was not one of those things. But, once we got married, boy, we were into fly fishing then. So. So, yeah, I just hope everybody can have a chance to come here to the Driftless, so.

Marvin Cash: Very, very neat. And I think I've got your website, and I'll drop your phone number in the show notes you want to let folks know. I would imagine you're probably an Instagram guy. You want to share your Instagram handle before I let you go tonight?

PJ Smith: Yeah. So Instagram is @pjguides. On Instagram, there's, there's, yeah, I think my logo is on there. And then, so it's, kind of a brook trout coming out of a small stream in a pasture and that. So, so look us up. I try to post when I can. So it's not all grip and grins on there either. It's just, you know, some scenery and there's some cool pictures of trout now and again and some smallmouth pictures and then kind of just life here in the Driftless. Yeah.

Marvin Cash: Well, very cool. Well, listen, PJ, I really appreciate you spending some time with me this evening.

PJ Smith: Well, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure and, yeah, I'm looking forward to talking some more with you at some point in time. And you know, if you need fishing reports, just let me know.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, absolutely. And maybe our paths will cross on the water sometime soon.

PJ Smith: Absolutely. Sounds great.

Marvin Cash: Take care.

PJ Smith: Alrighty.

Marvin Cash: Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Don't forget to check out the show notes for more details on the Chocklett Factory coming to Charlotte on May 4th. Tight lines everybody.