S6, Ep 8: Josh Miller Returns

Marvin Cash: Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the articulate fly. On this episode, I'm joined by euro nymphing guru, Josh Miller. Josh updates us on things since his last visit. We take a deep dive into his approach to euro nymphing and we discuss his new book, euro nymphing tips, tactics and techniques. I think you're really going to enjoy this one. But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, please subscribe and leave us a rating review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out. And a shout-out to this episode's sponsor. This episode is sponsored by our friends at Norvise. Their motto is tie better flies faster, and they produce the only vise that truly spins. The Norvise team will be racking up the miles at the Denver, Edison, and Atlanta fly fishing shows. You owe it to yourself to drop by the Norvise booth to see the only vise that truly spends for yourself. Not going to be in Denver, Edison or Atlanta? No worries. Norvise's entire 2024 show schedule is up and running on their website. Head over to www.nor-vise.com today to see if the Norvise team will be coming to a town near you. Now, onto our interview.

Well, Josh, welcome back to the articulate fly.

Josh Miller: Thanks for having me, Uncle Marvin.

Marvin Cash: Uh, you're the only person who calls me that. Um, so, you know, it's kind of amazing. We were talking before we started recording, Josh, um, it's been two and a half years since you were last on the podcast. What have you been up to?

Josh Miller: Lots of things. Having. Well, I guess I had a. My kids two and a half years old. So around the time my son was born, um, purchased a home. My hair's going gray and falling out, it feels like, already, but that's about it.

Marvin Cash: Well, you're, uh, you're being a little modest. I mean, I think you won a world championship, right?

Josh Miller: Yeah. We had a good year in, uh, you know, uh, in Bosnia this year with the US Youth team. That was a fun, super memorable, super cool. I mean, I could talk for hours about that experience, just alone. And I, uh, released a book just as of the past month. And, you know, other fun things in life, too.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. So I know about the youth stuff because I, you know, talk to Tucker and obviously I don't live under a rock and I watch social media, but, uh, what about in your kind of personal comp fishing? What have you been up to?

Josh Miller: Personal fishing? I haven't done any comp fishing since I think I was 19. My last team USA event was in North Carolina, actually, down your way on the Davidson River and I think something called Wolf Lake or Tennessee. I remember, uh, yeah, that was a good. That was a good competition. I do miss that. I miss that stuff. That was a fun one for me. I like. I don't know, I take especially competition or just fishing in general. You know, I live and breathe it. I take it very serious. And remember that one. I just kind of just went and had fun. I don't know, it's like it was a different mindset and it was just really fun. And, uh, it made me want to do it. But then with all the changes in life– kids, family, books, Covid, guiding. Yeah, I just haven't done it. I actually have a competition signed up next week. I'm going to do again.

Marvin Cash: Good for you.

So where did you fish on the Davidson? It's one of my favorite places to fish in western North Carolina.

Josh Miller: It was. I remember it was cold. Don't think there was snow, but I remember there was. It was like ice kind of days. It was really cold. Um, I remember the stream Looking Glass maybe right near there around that area. Um. Um, I remember the stream being pretty high. And it was February, maybe January.

Marvin Cash: February, yeah. So you were. You were in Pisgah. I was wondering if maybe that was on Kevin's private water, kind of down below the shop there. But it sounds like you were in the Pisgah Forest proper.

Josh Miller: I think. I think so. I think it was public water. I think so. It would ran alongside the road. A lot of rhododendrons. Really pretty stream. Beautiful.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, they have great hatches there in the evenings.

Josh Miller: Um.

Marvin Cash: Um, in the summertime. It's a neat place to fish. Like I said, one of my favorite spots. And, uh, uh, you know, it's funny, too, because we were talking about, like, how long it's been since we've seen each other, like, in person. And, uh.

Josh Miller: Uh.

Marvin Cash: But what I do know from watching your Instagram feed is you've been crushing it at trout.

Josh Miller: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Guiding has been good. It's been, um. Um, just. Just. I don't know what it was, but maybe three years ago. Uh. Uh, yeah, our, you know, just popularity, whatever you want to call it, kind of just really exploded. And we're, you know, just a lot of good fishing and, um, just so thankful for all of our students and clients or whatever, coming and fishing with us year after year. And then all the new people that want to be involved and learn from us. It's been super.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And it's interesting too, right? Because you're, you know, one, you're kind of more of an instructional guide. Right. Um, but then the other thing is, you're not guiding just for trout. You mean you're doing the whole thing on the alley, too, because I've seen you just whacking steelhead.

Josh Miller: Yeah. Yeah. You know, with the tr, the trout. Of course. I consider myself first educator, uh, instructor. I mean, people that have listened to me or been with me know that that's really what I want to do. I just want to teach alternative methods or alternative mindset or, uh, whatever it is, just to, at the highest level I can. And it's fun. I just really enjoy that. I really haven't, like having anglers like mindedness, although it is super when I have an angler who's like, man, I've never fished. I just want to, like, step in the water. I'm just like, oh, gosh, this is going to be the nicest, funnest day, because not only are they going to have that fulfilled, but I'm going to do my best to make their memory just be so crazy with how many fish potentially they could catch. And in doing so, um, I take my job serious in the fact that you never know where someone's at in their life. You never know what they're struggling with or what's going on at home or whatever it is. Uh, so I just know that fly fishing touched me, and I know that I have the ability to touch somebody, or the fishing has the ability to touch somebody if done in the way that, I don't know, amazes them or just whatever it is, and that potentially could save their life or their career or their relationships or whatever it is. So I really take fly fishing and guiding, really personal and really serious, if that makes sense.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it does. And I would imagine, too, getting new anglers. You don't have to spend a lot of your day breaking really bad habits, right?

Josh Miller: You never know. But, yeah, usually not. Um, but doing the steelhead thing, it's, it, it's cool. It was, it's a cool breath of fresh air, to be honest. It was a new adventure for me. I mean, of course, you know, how to catch steelhead or whatever, but I got, I was lucky enough to learn from what I would consider, you know, the better, the best of what they do in the Great Lakes area. Jeff Blood. And was, um, lucky enough to meet a guy named Kurt Bitecofer. And just kinda learn from those guys the way they attack water. And it was neat being able to learn their methods and then, you know, use what we've discovered or figured out or learned about euro nypmphing and thing and, and just trout in general and kind of adapted that into how we fish for steelhead. It's fun, it's cool. It's, it's still another learning experience for me. I'm still learning. Um. Um. Well, I'm still learning at everything, but especially the steelhead. And it's, it's cool. It's cool.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's interesting. You know, Jeff, I, I've, I've had him on and I've fished with him, ah, a million years ago. You know, he is, to me, he's the steelhead OG, right?

Josh Miller: Yeah, he really is. He's, he's really good at it. He really, he's a kind-hearted man. He's, he's fun to be with. Um, um, but yeah, he, he's taught, taught me a lot personally.

And it's cool. Just, just like I said, it's kind of a fresh, fresh air thing. And just learning the amount of water we have and how much access and where the fish are come like. So you, you go to central Pennsylvania and you know, I uh, the trout are always there in that run or whatever, but with steelhead, it rains one inch and there's snow on the ground. And Elk Creek's not fishable for 30 hours, but, you know, it's 20 miles. Fish in 20 hours or 15 hours. And seven mile fishes in this and Conneaut doesn't blow out or, you know, it takes a while for two. But there's kind of this cool, um, conditions. Seeing we are learning about uh, that makes it very important to where we fish. Kind of different than Spring Creek in Central PA. So there's like, I don't know, more than just fish. It's a lot about conditions. It's a lot about where they are, as in, uh, you know, how warm or cold it is when the, when it does rain. So how far they've moved up into the system, and later it is in the system of more fish in a certain area and this and that. So it's cool. It's just not just fishing. There's a lot more to learn. If that makes sense too?

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And the cool thing I always find about traveling and fishing, you know, in different places and then also for different species is it makes you a more well-rounded angler.

Josh Miller: Yeah, absolutely. It's fun. Just broaden your horizon broaden what you do.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, I will say the, uh, coldest I've been in my life was up in Fredonia, New York, fishing with Jeff.

Josh Miller: Yeah, yeah. This week's been cold.

Marvin Cash: It's been.

Josh Miller: And next week's looking crazy. Oh, uh, man, I'm not not excited for that. It's finally going to lock up, I think.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's funny too. Like, I have a newfound appreciation for Tim Hortons coffee after being up there in like late, uh, November.

Josh Miller: I've never drank coffee in my life until about a year ago, and now I drink it every morning and I like, look forward it in the morning for guiding. And Joe, my wife was a, uh, a barista. So is my, you know, my best bud, Joe. And Joe's like, after knowing me for 15 years, he's like, I would have never guessed you'd ever drink coffee. He's like, I don't know what the worlds coming to this. It's weird and I don't like it.

Marvin Cash: Preston, that's funny. I think the last time I interviewed you, I can't remember if you were kind of like your book was a little bit of a secret, but I know you were just starting to work on. And as you mentioned earlier, I think the official release date is February 6. But some of the cool kids have already got the book early. Um, you know, for folks that don't know, you're dropping a book called your own tips, tactics, and techniques.

And I was really kind of curious, you know, if you could share a little bit about the genesis of the project with us.

Josh Miller: Yeah, I've, as a young angler, I just, like a lot of us learn from books before, you know, for YouTube, for Internet, whatever. But it was neat looking at these books, seeing at these fly patterns, seeing these anglers that were the, the best of what they do, writing about it and just thinking, man, that's just like, it's so cool. And having that legacy, to have that information in print for people to learn from or, you know, be blessed by for years to come was kind of something I thought was, man, I'd be really lucky to be able to do that someday. So it's always maybe not a goal, but like a, uh, goal that I thought was unreachable, I should say, you know, intangible. And I was lucky enough to be okay at what I do for a long enough time. And Stackpole, uh, reached out for me and was like, we know you're successful doing this, and we kind of think it's refreshing your simplistic approach with success. So that's kind of how it started. Um, it was a long process. It wasn't easy. It was, uh, uh, kind of. It was really. When the books arrived at my house a couple weeks ago, a week ago, or whatever it, it was, I didn't expect myself to be teary-eyed and to have all these emotions throughout the day. Um, um. And after, like, reflecting on it that day, my wife's like, man, you're really weird. The day your book came out, I thought you're gonna be excited. I was like, well, I was excited. I am excited. But it was like, you know, pretend like you're going to talk about something you love in front of 100 or 200 or 500 people. Like, of course you're going to be nervous. At least I would be in and this and that. But this is, this is like print in lifetime. Some of my personal stories are in there. Some of my, you know, there's a lot of vulnerability in a way, I should say. Like, uh, you know, things that are maybe slightly different thoughts or controversial or whatever it is, you know. And some people, in my mind, I'm like, man, some people might judge me for that or whatever it is. Um, um, so it was like, it was emotional, I. I guess.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. It's interesting though, you know, talking about vulnerability, because, you know, it's a hard thing to do, but my general experience is the more you open up, the more the road opens in front of you.

Josh Miller: Absolutely. Yeah, I'm happy I did it. I'm excited. Uh, uh, it, it was. There's a lot of information, hopefully, that people learn from reading that that is a little different than other things that they've read or learned or whatever. Uh, I tried to, you know, personalize it in a way. This is kind of neat. The book had to be so many words, and I actually wrote like three times that many and went through and skimmed through everything. I was like, man, this is too deep. Maybe aerialized men's making sure that your flies track straight downstream and align with how the leader lands and how your flies land directly upstream of, of your leader. Uh, you know, um, this is a lot too deep of information. So I tried to boil it down, but a lot of that stuff is, is woven in there. If you can kind of read between the lines a little bit, like some, some deeper thoughts and stuff that are really just hard to. I had trouble sometimes explaining things on, you know, with writing them out. So, like how I wrote a lot of my book. I would sit there after a fishing day and just do, uh, uh, like a. I would talk through what I did or what I think is important on my phone, like through the voice app, and then I listen to it later and then try to type it out in a similar manner. Sometimes it was really hard to write.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, that's also the benefit of, like, seeing you at shows coming to fish with you, you know, that's also the value of video, which I know you're into. You know, when you wrote the book, did you have a specific type of angler that you were writing the book for?

Josh Miller: Probably. People probably don't want to hear this. I probably shouldn't say it, but it definitely changed throughout what I was writing. Sometimes I was like, I want, you know, I'm thinking about my best friend, what? Or I just guided that day. So I'm writing something that I, that clicked with that angler that day. Or sometimes it was the most simple of basic things. So it definitely has, it definitely has a mixture of, you know, anglers who are very green at euro nymphing and thing, and hopefully some comp anglers that have never, you know, there's comp anglers that are very good at what they do. Can learn something from it, too.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, dude, it's, it's an, it's an amazing book. I really appreciate you letting me take a peek at it before the interview, you know, how would you suggest an angler take your book and use it to get better on the water?

Josh Miller: Um, um, I don't know, read it or. So like me, uh, myself personally, I like just taking little snippets and trying to digest them instead of maybe reading the whole thing at once. Because there's a, uh, there's a lot of different ideas and information in there, maybe just little pieces at a time. At least that's how I learn. If I read it all at once or even listen to a podcast or video, whatever, I might only take one or two things that I remember to the stream, and then things get lost or forgotten about, the things that maybe were even more important or deeper thought than the thing that you remembered. So just, uh, keep that in mind.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And it's great. I mean, it's not super long, right? It's not like it's War and Peace. Right. So it is digestible. It's easy to take with you. It's kind of great to use as a resource. And I get what you're saying because you can't go to the water and apply 170 pages of information in one shot, right?

Josh Miller: No, for sure not.

Marvin Cash: Yeah.

And it's interesting, too, you know, I know, um, you know, as we talk about kind of people on their phishing journeys I know that you think mentorship is really important to be able to develop as an angler, and I know you're really lucky because you've got a comp hotbed near you, but I was wondering if you could kind of share with listeners, you know, suggestions for finding a mentor, and particularly if you don't live, you know, where there's a really high concentration of your euro nymphing folks.

Josh Miller: Yeah, I. I guess it could be hard or, uh, challenging for some people in some areas to find anglers to, you know, at least one that you could physically see in person all the time. There's areas of the country that's just thin with fishing, I guess, with trout, but always good to start your local fly shop, or even reach out to someone that you look up to online. Reach out to someone that you think is good at what they do, and ask them.  Just say, do you know anybody in my area? Or how can you help me? I think, uh, I personally like when people reach out and want to ask questions or comments, uh, or whatever it is, I think it's good. And I think for anyone listening who is good at what they do or have people that look up to them, I think it's our job to be available and be, you know, be able to listen and work with people on, you know, of course, it doesn't mean be on the phone 24/7.  My wife, you could ask her. She's like, “you take calls all day”. Or like, I remember, uh, I said the other, uh, in July, my trout season is really, you know, springtime, and then fall time we do steelhead and winter. And in July, August, I don't really guide very much or at all. And I was with someone, and Joe was standing next to me, and they're like, “man, you don't guide at all in this summertime.” And Joe's like, “you're on the phone working something every minute,” you know, so it's just a different kind of work in a way. But I don't look at it as work. I look at it as furthering education and helping others.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And I think you've been lucky too, right, because you're basically living your passion, right? Easy to say, hard to do.

Josh Miller: Yeah, I'm super blessed. And it's not always a cakewalk. Every day is not always the easiest. And my kids screaming out there, the dog just pooped in the floor, and the wife just dropped the coffee, and. And someone's calling, and I answer, and she's like, why did you do that, at that moment? You know, there's definitely a personal balance. Everyone needs to find that, of course, to respect their families and respect what they need to do. But I just think, um, it's nice when, when anglers can reach out to those respected or whatever it is the people that they look up to and they respond. It's just really nice because I, I had that once too. I was able to reach out to people I looked up to and they reached out to me and it was a big impact on my life, you know, that's what I'm trying to say.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, absolutely.

You know, one of the things too, that I, that I think really differentiates your book from other euro nymphing or nymphing books is that it's very process driven. And I was wondering if you could share with us why you think process is so important.

Josh Miller: Yeah, I know process is important. I'm positive that that's something I stand behind and live with. I, you know, uh, even just going from competitive fishing and doing well, to guiding and doing well, or to coaching in the world level and, you know, winning world champion. But it's just more solidification every day that the process is so important. It's, it's simplification of technique, simplification of fly selection and, you know, putting emphasis on how more of deeper or finer details, uh, as in like how fish are eating or how you should approach those fish versus maybe fly selection or, uh. I don't know how to explain exactly, but there's more to fly fishing sometimes even for me. And I know that I'm learning all the time than just the bare basics. I don't know if that answers your question.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it's interesting too, because you said earlier that, uh, I guess Jay was saying you had a reputation for having a very simple process. But I think what people don't understand is that, you know how much work and energy goes into being that reductive to be able to take 100 points and reduce them to six things.

Josh Miller: Yeah, I guess a simple process might not be the right word for it. Maybe it's a simple, uh, amount of things I worry about, but they're very deep. Maybe that's a better way to say it.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, but it takes a lot of skill to organize that and to be really reductive, right?

Josh Miller: It does. Or it takes the ability to not, I don't know, be able to realize that there's things that you don't need to worry about and there's other things that are more important. Or like I say, this, um, this is kind of a neat way to think about it. When you're, when you're a young kid, like my son, he’s two, he's worried about when his next food's coming and when the TV is going to be turned on, you know, when you're early in your angling skill, you're worried about, I don't know, just getting to the water and how to get your fly into the water. That's your worry. And then worry is , maybe not the right word, but that's what you concentrate on or focus on. And then the better you get, or, uh, the more you fish, you're your worries. Or once change, you know, like, you become this level or you're 16 and now you're worried about, like, getting the keys to your car and going with your friends and you're farther in your fly fishing career, and now you're worried about, like, maybe I need a little more split shot to, quote, get my fly down. But then, like, five years later, maybe you realize that split shot was actually to slow your drift down more than just to get your fly down. Like, and you're 28, and now you're worried about, like, your, your future savings, you know, like, I think things change as you get more in your career. I know that and things kind of boil down to things that matter more to you. As for the style you fish for, the fish you're fishing for, for where you're fishing or what you want in fly fishing, what's your outcome?

Marvin Cash: Yeah, but I think it's, I mean, it's interesting, though, because I think, you know, one of the things that we, the royal we in fly fishing we don't do well, is we don't teach process well. Right? And I think it discourages a lot of people. And I think the power of what you're doing as opposed to saying, hey, I want to fly fish. And you're like, well, here are 300 things you need to remember, right? You know, if you can boil it down and say, I'm going to tell you six or eight things that you need to worry about, and then as you proceed over time, you can drill deeper into each of those six things, but it's not like you have to, you know, carry an Encyclopedia Britannica on your back to go fly fishing.

Josh Miller: That's exactly it. And the facts of that is those simple things have won us world championships, and it's had me personally do really well, or at least I think I do okay at what I do. And that's kind of the neat part of it. It doesn't have to be extremely complex to be very successful. And like I said a second ago, it's, what's your goal? Success isn't always just catching fish, but to me, a lot of time it is what we do at the, you know, being a coach or whatever. Um, but in not that alone, I think being successful in catching fish helps, uh, to, helps to let you learn more about fish and learn more about fishing and learn about, you know, I'm good at this. And it kind of, like, made me a better streamer angler because I understand where the fish should be when they're doing this or, you know, so the more fish you touch and the more you catch, the more you can, then you can focus on maybe now selecting the right fly for the, for the occasion. So I'm doing an article recently on, like, uh, simplification of flies. And, you know, I think fish key in on fly. I think fish key on, like, a certain pattern at times. But for me, that simplistic process, I'd rather focus on making good drifts than always focusing on a fly. Because the second you focus on fly, then you blame the fly for your lack of catching fish, where maybe it's, it's your drift. Drift's not quite proper or you're, you're spooking the fish or whatever. The more thoughtfulness is, it's easier for people to change their fly than it is to learn better angles or ways to get your fly down, have better connection. It's kind of like the crutch in fly fishing, in my mind, people kind of blame their fly and don't blame their technique or more in-depth things. That's kind of what my process is about.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. So you're saying that a $2,000 fly rod is not going to help me catch more fish?

Josh Miller: Maybe, uh, when you're really polished, it might, but starting off, I don't think.

Marvin Cash: Yeah.

Josh Miller: You know, I think having good technique and understanding fish will help you catch more fish than expensive fly rods.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. And so, you know, it's interesting, right, to kind of help folks out. I mean, you really kind of break the book down and you basically say your process is, you got to be an accurate caster. You know, talk about fly selection, and then it's really about maintaining contact and drift management, right?

Josh Miller: Oh, yeah, Mmhmm. yeah.

Marvin Cash: And it's interesting. And we were talking about this before we started recording, you know, you know, casting euro nymph rigs. It, to me, is fundamentally different from, you know, fly casting because to me, the evolution is, is to basically have almost no leader. Right? Unless, I mean, to have almost no line and have all leader if you can, uh, unless you need to deal with wind or a comp factor. And I always find it really, really hard to shift from the orthodoxy of traditional fly casting to euro nymph casting. Do you have any tips for folks?

Josh Miller: Yeah, I enjoy both. I enjoy casting a fly line. I'm going to Florida in like three weeks. I can't wait to be down there fishing salt water. I just love that. I just love that. But I also just as equally really enjoy casting a, uh, euro setup. Like, there's definitely different ways to do it. There's definitely different ways that match with different leader weights and match with different rods, match with different fly weights and match with what you're trying to do. If I'm trying to cast with the wind or under structure or have connection quickly, uh, I use something called the frisbee cast. I keep my rod low, I move it in a straight line and I can cast nice distances and that those movements and where my rod stops helps to set my sighter and line up to make very quick connection. But it's, it is hard to do without seeing. It's hard to kind of explain things. So we've learned to have kind of keywords. Like if you think of how you throw a frisbee, you use, uh, maybe your finger on the front of the frisbee or your finger, you know, wrapping around the outside of the frisbee. And when you're throwing it, you're keeping your arm and hand and wrist parallel with, with the, with the ground or the water. And in doing so, that's how, you know, that's the same. That's how we use the fly rod to cast, uh, a lightweight leader with lightweight flies. But it's more to it than that. You have to make sure you have connection on your downstream and upstream part of the cast. The fly needs to be, it should be anchored in the water. And when you're, when you're moving your rod to four, we start with an exaggerated slow movement to get that fly to come right to the surface. And then right as at the surface, we do just like a flick of the wrist and that thing can cast pretty far, pretty dang accurate with, with that. It's, it's.  It is a little bit difficult to, for me to explain it exactly without me showing it on the water and physically seeing it. I am the one. I'm a person who learns visually. So when I teach, I really explain the importance of being hands-on and watching. So I think the two ways to learn, um, fly fishing at a high level is the watchers and doers. You got to be both.

You got to watch someone do it, and you got to do it. So, like, if Dale Earhart Jr. said, like, hey, I want you to drive my car. Back when I was a young guy, but dude, I can't wait to rip that car on the track. But now I'm like, man, I'm going to go, like, 90 miles an hour in that thing, and I'm not going to know what the cars you can do. And, you know, now I'd be like, no, I want you to drive, and I'm going to watch you drive or experience it in the passenger seat. And I see how fast and how it takes the turns or whatever it is. And that's, like, where anglers, I think, kind of maybe plateau, where they go on a guide trip and they learn. But a lot of my anglers that really succeed are the ones that are like, alright, Josh, 30 minutes, or we go ten casts for ten casts, and they watch me approach and watch how my movements are, and then they're like, man, I was missing that little piece of the puzzle because sometimes it's hard for me to watch exactly what you're doing. You even, uh, on a guide trip, people, uh, who listen to this will know this exact moment. Like, what do you think here? I'm like, give me that wide rod, 1 second, I'll make a cast. I'm like, okay, so you needed it to, like, move your rod tip up a little bit the second the fly hits the water, just to go vertical and slow it down a slight bit. Because sometimes, I'll be honest, I don't know exactly what to do. When you give me the rod in the hand, it kind of can come naturally sometimes. So I think it's really important to be able to watch, too. Sorry, that's an elongated answer.

Marvin Cash: No, no. I mean, I think it's really kind of the value of, you know, there's really no replacement, right, for one one-on-one time with someone like you or George or Gordon on the water. Um, you know, because YouTube generally can't get quite to that level of insight, I don't think. Because I don't think people produce content that way. But you, you know, I would say the other challenge, right, is if you are relying on a water load, you know, this isn't one of these things where you, like, go to the baseball park and you work on your casting. Cause it's a little bit harder to do because you can't replicate the, uh, conditions. Right.

Josh Miller: It is a little bit difficult. Yeah, it's cool. The anglers who come, come for me, who's watched my YouTube videos, and they're like, I really wanted to see you casting how effortlessly that thing just shoots as far as you need it to go. Like, yeah, it's. It's neat. It really relies on the mechanics of what you're doing and make sure you set it up properly. And once it's done, it's pretty easy. It's pretty easy.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Got it.

And so what do you see kind of in terms of common mistakes, uh, in terms of maintaining contact and managing drift with your anglers?

Josh Miller: A ton, ton. And it's scenario-driven. It's, you know, if there's a little bit of wind or, uh, it's mechanics of the rod, if they're stopping too fast or too hard or not, a little bit follow through after the fly is projecting towards the target. There's tons of ways that we can create slack or create a, uh, disconnect. It's neat. Even myself is learning a lot on connection and the importance of it. I would think now, at this point, if someone really asked me, like, how do you catch more fish? Like, you know, if you can have connection and identify bites, you're gonna, you're gonna. You're going to at least miss more fish. Like, it's really important. Connection is so important. There's so many times in the past where I'm thinking about how is fishing, and now knowing what I do with how much disconnect I have. And I'm like, man, I must have had so many bites over the years and just had no clue. I really think a lot of anglers struggle with this and don't realize that they do not have connection with their fly and think they do. There's so many times where I'm drifting in the angler and I'm reading it through the sighter where maybe the sighter is just dipping or, uh, turning downstream at the tip of it just a little bit. Or. Or I just know with the weight of the fly and just looking at the water, I'm like, hey, lift your drift up halfway through. And like, man, my fly was downstream. I'm like, yeah, it's really hard sometimes to tell where it's at. It's really hard. So it's. I like to have people do just that halfway through the drift. Lift it up. I kind of find the differences or the similarities. And physically reading that sighter, like a book I call the sighter. The check engine light, like it's doing something. My check engine lights on. But you need to know what the code's telling you. You need to know what you're. You need to know what you need to do now to change what the. What the, the sighter is telling you. Does that kind of make sense?

Marvin Cash: Yeah, it does for sure. Right? It tells you, like, whether, you know, you need to lead the flies a little bit. Um, I mean, there's just so much there.

Josh Miller: There's so much. There's so much to leave the flies or to. Or to shorten your tippet or to add more weight or to cast a shoe farther or to go vertical or to change your. There's so many adjustments. That's the difficult part of it. What do you do? How do you adjust? That's what takes time,

Marvin Cash: Which then gets us back to process, and we'll talk about that a little bit more. But, uh, you know, I mean, the whole trick, right?

Marvin Cash: It's an amazing thing. Like, I kind of have a tradition to, uh, uh, to take my boys on a guide trip kind of in the wintertime between Christmas and New Year's. And I can remember one year fishing, uh, actually, with the guys at Davidson River Outfitter, and I was watching my son fish. And we were fishing kind of your typical, um, uh, hatchery fish rig, right? Eggs and worms and stuff like that. And I literally watched a trout eat an egg, like, six times, and the indicator never moved. Right. And I was like, you know, I was like, I need to spend some time and, uh, go buy 50,000, uh, spools of fluorescent, um, sighter material. Um, but, you know, it's a fascinating thing.

I mean, and, you know, kind of transitioning to the book, you know, can you give folks a little bit of an overview?

Josh Miller: Yeah. So, uh, you know, that I have some technique is really try to be pushed in there. Like you said, the process of what I want to do. And, like that word we're talking about, connection, I probably say that like, 170,000 times in the book. You know, like those important things I do try to drill into. Into, uh, my reader's thoughts. Uh, but kind of overview, kind of key points is like, you know, if you don't. I said it a minute ago, like, how do you catch more fish? You have to have connection, but connection, um. Um, it is, you know, if you're too heavily connected and you're dragging bottom, you can't tell what a bite is. If you're connected, but you're not deep enough, you aren't not going to catch fish. So there's, there's, of course, variables with all that, too, but kind of premise of a lot of what we do is how do I catch more fish? Having connection but also detecting more strikes. Someone asked me, like ten years ago, how do you catch more fish? I'd give you an elaborate answer on what I thought it was. Right now, if you ask me, how do you catch more fish with tight lining or euro nymphing, really any kind of fly fishing subsurface, it's identifying a strike, identifying a bite. And there's a lot that goes into that. Kind of every day I fish, I'm adjusting things to kind of help myself see bites. Okay, so, like, if you say, now, so what the problem is or what I'm trying to do is see a bite. So how do I see a bite? Now, my mind says, okay, how do I amplify strikes? So it's interesting things. So now how do I amplify bites if I don't hit the bottom, you know, if I hit the bottom, it's kind of common knowledge now. Their sighter moves all the time. You're only maybe feeling your strikes or the fish that really hold onto it. That's kind of common knowledge now, something we were doing a long time ago, you know, trying to, uh, eliminate hitting the bottom a bit. But if you even hold the flies maybe slightly higher than the fish in the column, the fish move up, eat the fly, and then go back down to where they're sitting, and the strike is more amplified. So those are kind of the things like in my book. Maybe. I don't specifically say exactly, but that's like, the deeper thinking that I'm trying to have people think about. It's not like, you know, okay, so my goal is to just catch a fish. No, no, no. My goal is now to amplify my strikes so I can catch more fish. So that's like the process. And the more you dig into the process, the more of those things kind of start coming out. You're like, okay, so, like, what am I trying to do in this situation? I think a lot of guides go, okay, cast no mend. But why? What was the point of the mend? I don't, you know, I'm like, huh, okay, slow your fly down. Okay, so, no, what does that mean? The purpose is now to slow the fly down. And now what do you do to do that? Because there's 900 ways to do that where a lot of people are just, like, mend. Okay? I mend, and then my angler mends upstream, where it's actually deadwater. And the fly, you know, kicks underneath because it's slowing down the indicator. But, like, there needs to, uh, I like to try to explain what the purpose is of the drift or what my fly is trying to do or what I'm trying to get it to do. And then you can come up with your own way to make that happen. I think it's important for anglers to, um, you know, follow basic rules and to follow, uh, the handbook of fly fishing. But to be really good, it's important to also write your own way, write your own methods, because fish are fish. Fish change. Things change. New ideas are coming out all the time. Um, you know, there's, there's more to it. So it's important to have good, um, basics and follow good guidelines and think about those things, but also question those things, too. Also, you know, like, I wanted to write my book and name the title. Like “Question What You Know”, like, you know, think outside the box or try to, um, um, question things and have conversations. II like sometimes having a different opinion and having a slight controversial thought. I think it's important for us. Even if they're wrong, it's okay. It makes people start to think, or it makes me start to think and have good, deeper conversations versus, like, oh, yeah, we add split shot to get down. Like, let's think a little more.

Marvin Cash: Uh, well, I think it kind of comes back to, you know, this power of being reductive. Right. When you ask those why and what questions, then you don't have to, like, memorize, like, you don't have to memorize 50 leader formulas, right? Because, because, because, you know, if you understand, you know, stuff, like, you know, the water at the top is moving faster than the water at the bottom. So don't sink your sighter because that's usually a lot thicker than your tippet because ‘cause it's going to basically drag your rig.

Marvin Cash: Right?  And so I think, to your point, when people start thinking about it that way, they actually have space to get better because they don't have to remember so much unrelated information.

Josh Miller: Yeah. It's just hard to, even for myself sometimes. What's important information in that situation? What's, uh, you know, that's just what takes time on the water or having, like we said earlier, good mentors or people that are really good at what they do. This year in Bosnia, we had our guide, um, Alex and Luca. Just absolutely fantastic people and great anglers. You know, it's like we see these stocked fish there. And he says, “I want to fish an extra heavy fly just so it makes a splash, so the fish feel it and move over to it because they're stocked and they're used to that” I'm like, “oh”. And he's like, “actually, we want to even, like, hit it hard on the water so they even feel that at a distance”, you know, like. Like, “hmm, interesting”, you know, and you see it work. Uh, but that's the point of all these things. Like, to me, you could say the sky's purple. But, like, if I don't see it, I don't know. I need that, like, physical data to, like, for my mind to say, okay, that was important, you know, and that's just what comes with time or fishing with, like, so if Pat Weiss, I say this in my book, tells me that, you know, he just fishing, won a session on something I never fished before, I have confidence in him, his methods, and that fly because of that, or where a lot of people, you know, you got to have, like, to me, I need that physical data behind that. It's almost like, this is the leader that’s really good. I'm like, okay, so why? And they're like, because it's just. It's just good. I'm like, how many fish have you caught with it? Or, like, you know what I mean? Like, where's some data to prove that? Someone comes in the shop and they're like, “oh, I figured this fly out. I caught so many fish on them.”

Like, okay, that's emotion, you know, and this is getting into coaching now. Like, I don't need emotion as much. I need facts. Cause when I tell the next angler or that, or that angler tells them that their teammates going into that session, what was important or what was, you know, data-driven. And this is kind of from Calvin Kailas. He was, um, one of our ex-coaches, a really good guy who's a military guy. So, like, you know, that way to communicate, um, information between each other was so important. So getting back, like, you know, uh, that guy came in and was like, dude, I crushed him on purple hairs here. And I'm like, okay, what does crush mean? He's like, I caught six. I'm like, well, maybe in that situation that did crush him, but as a whole, that's not very much like numbers or data to go off of. I know talking numbers is like a really, you know, people are going to be like, ah, he's one of those guys. Well, I. I don't want to hurt the fish. And I don't want to catch every fish in the river, but I want to have data to, you know, say, like, these are things that do work because we've caught x amount of fish over the years that are constants. They're things that are, we see often. We believe in that. Sorry. Another elongated answer. Uh, I apologize. I'm getting excited. I get passionate about it. I'm sure you can see it.

Marvin Cash: No, but I mean, I think the great thing about the book is, you know, the early chapters are really kind of the bricks that build the foundation, right? So you talk about casting, you talk about fly selection, and you kind of work through those things and kind of sprinkled throughout that are some phenomenal tips, like leader formulas. As I was telling you before we started recording, you know, you'll have people that will buy the book just to get your leader formulas. But I mean, interesting stuff like how to pick bead colors. I mean, there's all sorts of little stuff like that. But to me, kind of the, the money ball in the book is really the last two chapters where you say, let's put it all together. And what's my approach on the water?

Josh Miller: Yeah, yeah. It's because, um, that's where that process comes in. There's like, to backstep everything I'm seeing. Like, every fly works, every technique works in a situation. What I'm trying to find out is what's the simplest way and what's the way that works the majority of the time. That's what I'm looking for. And because of that, makes me a successful guy and a successful coach and comp angler, because I'm going off of averages, I'm going off of the whole picture. I'm not looking at Penns Creek, May 27, when the, uh, I don't know, quill gordons or whatever it is that day and that specific I'm looking at going wherever I go over the country, the world, and being good enough to catch fish and have fun. And I think anglers can relate to that. We talked before this saying, you know, a lot of anglers only fish a few times a year, but if you have a simple approach like that, you can catch fish and have fun. Or, uh, once again, people are going to say, :oh, have fun doesn't always mean catching fish”, but in my mind, I want to have fun. Okay, so let's just get this is moved past that point. You know, those anglers can go and catch fish and have fun and not have to worry about every little detail of everything they just go with a broad technique that works and catches fish. It's almost like the same thought of, you know, someone said a few years ago, before I, like when I was a youngster, uh, there's a hairs here and a pheasant tail. Fish and split shot and an indicator and average, you just go to trout streams, you're going to catch fish. Right. It's simple, you know, and I look at that same method or that same process, just make it a little different, uh, with the tightlining without split shot and this and that. And I can be even a little bit more productive in a lot more scenarios.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Ah, got it.

And, you know, kind of shifting gears a little bit back to actually writing the book. What was the writing and editing experience like for you?

Josh Miller: Writing was interesting. My editor, um, Jay, really nice, really nice guy, a good, uh, dude. He kind of was like, you should follow this way to get the book done because, you know, I was nervous whenever I, uh, committed to that. It's a lot of, a lot of, it's a lot, you know, and it's like, you know, I can't bail out. You gotta, gotta get this done. And there's times where I was just like, oh my gosh, this is crazy. But some days I'd sit there and my wife would attest that I'd be there for, you know, eight in the morning till eleven at night. Just, she's like, I could just hear that keyboard just rocking all day. And then there's days where I'm like, the last thing I want to even think about is going back on that computer. My eyes are like burnt out. I'm seeing like all these little like floaty things in my eyes and like, you know, I'm like, this stinks, man. This stinks. And I would go sometimes a week or two without even thinking about it. And it was hard to start back up. And then when I get going again after a day or two of kind of rereading through things and maybe like saying that was not what I was trying to say or, or adjusting, uh, some words here and there to make the point maybe a little bit more stand out, you know, I'd get burning again. I'd sit there for 10 hours and just keep writing. So it was definitely a weird challenge to me. Uh, I've, in high school– a little bit about my past. I struggle with writing, I struggle with public speaking. And I remember I had a public speaking class, uh, anytime there was actually like that day where I knew it was my turn to be up I would call in sick. You know what I mean? I was like, I can't go that day. I was always so. Just a nervous person in that way. Um, and it's neat to be able to, you know something? If someone asked me as a, you know, in college, like, would you write a book? I would love to, but there's no way, you know what I mean? So it's neat to, to be able to push yourself and make it happen.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Very neat.

Is there, is there like a, you know, kind of like a greatest challenge or biggest surprise in the process that jumps out at you?

Josh Miller:  That its done in the way I felt when it, when it showed up. That was really, like, the most strange. Like I said, I had some tears that day. I was like, I said I was nervous, and I'm like, man, like, it's just, it's scary. It's this thing that, I don't know if people would even understand what I'm trying to say. If you haven't wrote a book, maybe you would. I don't know. But it was, I don't know, I was just nervous, like, what if I accidentally put something in there that was backwards or this or that or whatever. But, you know, at this point, it's, it's, uh, you know, it's just like, stand by what you did, and that's what it is. Uh, I did find that I spelled my one friend, two friends' names wrong, and they're one of my best friends, like Gene. How'd I miss that? I forgot an e at the end of my friend Hawthorne. How did I not miss that? You know, but, yeah, so there's those kind of things, but that thing's just, they're, you know, accidents, whatever, it happens.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Very, very neat. And so, you know, I think the official release date is February 6th. But I know that the book is kind of out in the wild already. You know, where can folks find it and where can folks pre-order it?

Josh Miller: So, yeah, you know, always support your local fly shops. A lot of fly shops, will hopefully have it. I know some that do. Currently, I have it on my website to troutyeah.com. and yeah, I am thankful for anyone who gets the book and, you know, maybe pass it on to the next angler. I appreciate that stuff and I want that conversation. Even if it's controversial, it's against what I'm saying. That's great. It's good. Fine. That's, that just helps to grow us all as anglers and help us to think, think better and deeper. And I'm just thankful.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, very neat. And so do you. I. Well, I don't even need to say, do you? I know you do. You want to share your upcoming events and appearances you have on tap to promote the book?

Josh Miller: Um, I don't have too much. I'll be at the awesome, fun New Jersey show in a couple weeks here and maybe even Denver this weekend. Um, and a couple TCO. I have a book signing. And where else? Uh, Precision Fly in Mount Holly and public lands here in Pittsburgh. Risen fly and Beaver county in Pennsylvania. So I'm Pittsburgh areas where I home base. So a lot of the stuff I do is in the East Coast and I mean, I love to do some more on the West Coast. It's so great out there, but yeah, just that and then it goes into guide season, uh, you know, then world championships this year's in the Czech Republic. So that's exciting. Looking forward to that.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, very cool.

Any other projects? I know you said you were working on another book. Anything else you want to share with our listeners before I let you hop?

Josh Miller: Um, just, you know, just other fun things. I'm trying to do some more videos again. I really, really enjoyed that. I had to kind of limit it when I was writing my book. Um, but yeah, I'm going to start filming videos again. I just, I like that. Just little thoughts on the water, nothing too deep, just fun things. And I don't know why I just enjoy doing that more. You know, it's like that the, uh, series, uh, of a fly fisherman, you know, they just want to catch a fish. Then it's all fish then a big fish and this and that. Now I just like filming videos, not, you know. You know, we all go through our own weird thing that we like. But I like that portion of it now.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. Ah, very cool. And if folks wanted to get more information about Trout Yeah where should they go?

Josh Miller: Yeah,Troutyeah.com troutyeah@gmail.com will get me personally. My phone number's on there. Email, whatever, reach out, questions, concerns, comments. Like I said, it's all appreciated. I'm just thankful for my anglers who fish with me. I'm thankful for the anglers that will fish with me in the future. And yeah, I'm thankful for you for having me on this podcast and the other anglers that put out good information so we all learn.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, no, it's been a blast. And before I let you go, where's the best place for folks to follow your fishing adventures?

Josh Miller: Uh, probably just my Instagram. I like posting stories on there all the time.

Marvin Cash: Gotcha. You want to share that handle, Josh?

Josh Miller: Uh, @JoshPGH

Marvin Cash: There you go. Took me a while. I'm a little bit slow. I finally figured out what the PGH was for, so.

Josh Miller: Pittsburgh. My wife did that first Sarah PGH, and I was like, oh, that's kind of cool. It's, um, you know, Pittsburgh. And then I was, oh, that's. Yeah, I guess I was slow on it, too.

Marvin Cash: Yeah, well, yeah, it took me a while, but I connected the dots finally. I think it was basically, uh, the International Angler Connection helped me out a little bit.

Josh Miller: Um. Yeah. Great fly shop in Pittsburgh.

Marvin Cash: Yeah. So, uh, well, listen, Josh, I really appreciate you taking some time out of your, uh, birthday weekend morning to hang out with me.

Josh Miller: Thank you. And I will see you at Edison. I look forward to it.

Marvin Cash: Absolutely. Take care. Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Uh, and don't forget to head over to www.nor-vise.com today to see if the Norvise team will be coming to a town near you. Tight lines, everybody.