S7, Ep 11: Streamer Secrets: Gateway Techniques for New Anglers with Mac Brown

Hey, folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly. And we're back with another Casting Angles with Mac Brown. Mac, how are you?

I'm doing great. How are you doing, Marvin?

As always, I'm just trying to stay out of trouble.

Well, that's a good thing.

Yeah, you live a little bit longer, you may not have as much fun, but, you know, it's kind of funny. We were talking before we started recording, and we wanted to talk a little bit about streamers on this episode of Casting Angles.

Yeah, I think that would be a good. A good thing. We did a little hike today. It's the first time I've been able to walk in about three weeks with the cold SAP.

And Atlanta got nice weather, and so today was a gorgeous day here. About 70 degrees, I thought.

Well, we did a streamer talk at the end of the program, and driving back home, it just brought back a lot of memories of when my kids were little and how we got them started in the whole game of fly fishing and fly casting and all that. And then I thought, well, you just went to Michigan, so tell me something about. About Michigan, what you learned with all the streamer gathering.

Yeah, I tell you, it's a pretty amazing event. So it was the third year that the folks at Schultz Outfitters have put on Bob in the Hood. And I've gone for the last two years.

And it's really, you know, it's a who's who of everybody who's kind of what I would call in the predator fly game.

And it attracts. It's sort of like Woodstock for those guys.

And so guys, you know, chasing steelhead, you know, massive brown trout, smallmouth muskie, striper, shoal bass, everything. And so it's a really. It's a really unique thing. And the guys at Schultz Outfitter, I mean, Schultz has got a great team.

They just put on a phenomenal event. So, you know, there's a pre party get together Friday night at the shop, and Charlie Craven did a demo.

And then all day Saturday, you get to basically their 35 tires, and you get to basically literally sit in front of them. Just like if you were at a, like the fly tying symposium.

You can have long conversations with these tires about what they're doing and what the techniques are and their demos back to the shop on that day. And then Sunday's a classroom day for people to take classes from Charlie Blaine, Doug McKnight, Chris Willen.

I mean, just tons of people that are really on the cutting edge of kind of what people are doing on the water, you know, kind of. I call them angler tires.

Right. That sounds like a great time.

Yeah, it was good. And I'm a little bit tired. I took the last flight back from Detroit last night, so I didn't get home till midnight.

So I'm still kind of digging out a little bit, but I'm gonna make it.

Well, I was so tired when from Atlanta. We got here about 7:30 and I fell asleep right after I got, you know, put the stuff back in the tying room, suitcases and stuff, and I fell asleep.

So I was, I was pretty worn out because we worked Thursday to Sunday night and the talk that we did on streamers was kind of what gave me the idea since you were up there around all this predator flies.

And I was talking more about the stuff I grew up fishing as a kid, you know, as a, as a young kid in like the 70s, early 70s, the stuff my granddaddy would have been fishing with the early origination of like the patterns that, that were common to, to our generation as a kid. And so, you know, that's what I fished a lot as a kid.

So I still talk about those and where they came from and who invented them and more for trout, you know, the predator flies, we start talking about a lot of other larger species. You know, I never really pursued those as much as the kids.

I was mostly always going after trout bass too, but I mean like sculpins and woolly boogers and things like that. And you know, we did a lot of that for brook trout would.

We threw a lot of black ghosts as a kid and Mickey Finns and, and dice and all those kind of, you know, black nose days and the streamers that were common to that time period.

But yeah, I thought that'd be a good talk just because when my kids were small, you know, we always think nowadays, you know, a bobber is a good way to gateway for fly fishing. Lobbing something 10ft over the side of the boat to get people hooked. Then I think to myself, well, what about tight line?

Everybody's into talking about the tight line techniques. That's a gateway because then they won't really have to learn to cast very far if they're throwing mono 10, 20ft.

And I just remember really well as the kids, because I'm on the water a lot as a guide running schools that when they were really small, like three and four years old, Marvin I thought, you know, you just pay attention and like they got a DH and there's stock and Fresh fish.

Take a kid up there with a little streamer, short leader, three feet, and just have them swing it just a few feet downstream, 10ft below, and you're just netting fish the whole afternoon until the fish get wise a week or two later. It's a great way to get people started into fly fishing, I think, as far as activity.

And those were just the simple patterns, you know, I was talking about just now. So then everybody kind of forgets. The streamer is kind of a gateway. You don't have to cast far. Little short cast, swing it.

You get a lot of nice fish pretty quick. So I thought that'd be a good talk for, like, since we have a lot of DH programs here in North Carolina.

Yeah, And I think too, you know, as you kind of progress in that, you know, obviously when those fish get first dropped in, they're not very educated. I mean, I can remember finding some. And you mean you can literally hook the same fish three and four times? Right.

But I would say, you know, kind of moving through that. You know, one of the great things is there's actually a lot you can really learn about line control fishing.

You know, small streamers, like woolly boogers for trout. It's almost like learning how to fish soft tackles in terms of, you know, how to.

How to swing to get profile, how to speed the fly up, how to slow the fly down.

And if you, you know, if you fish with, you know, let's just say you fish with a white woolly booger that you can see, you can really learn a lot about what your line manipulation is doing in relation to your fly.

Exactly. And you learn. Yeah. With mending, I mean, to speed it up or slow it down. Just using simple men's.

When it's getting close to the swinging point where it turns the direction at the fastest place, like, you can slow it down and extend it by taking the rod, you know, pointing at different places. And I.

I've got pictures of both my kids at like 2 and 3 years old doing that all over the Upper and up by Webster and on the tuck of cg, you know, right here through town when they were just little bitty. I mean, they're so little.

It was the hardest thing when they were that small, Marvin, like in the winter months, was to find something to keep them dry because you put them in the smallest pair of waders. And the waiters would be taller than their head, you know, so I'd have to take a belt. And I mean, it was kind of.

They don't really make waders for kids that little, you know.

Yeah, but I mean, it's an amazing thing.

I mean, you know, because if you sit back and you kind of read the water and if you're fishing, you know, a downstream swing, and you'd say, you know, you want to basically fish, you know, in front of a rock or a trough, and you basically throw that downstream, mend in the line right when you want that fly to show profile and accelerate, it'll zip right in front of that rock or through that pool and usually trigger that reaction bite.

Oh, yeah, yeah. And that's, that's the fun part when. Yeah, when you get a positive, positive result. Pretty simplistic. And a lot of advantages doing that, too.

Talking about across and down, you know, with, with streamer, when they're.

When they're a kid like that or somebody new that's never really fished a lot, it makes it pretty easy because you got the tension, you know, to all the way to the fly in your favor and anything that hits it, pretty much you've already caught it.

So, I mean, I'm not saying that in a bad way because we want people to have a positive experience, but, you know, the real reality in that scenario is the fish hooked himself.

I mean, you're just holding the rod at that point, but it's like different doing that versus throwing it up, pulling the fly in the speed of the water, which takes more. You know what I'm saying?

There's a whole lot of different ways, but I just think as we, as we introduce these concepts to people that are fairly new to it, I think it makes it where, okay, here's a gateway. That's fun. They had fun, they got a result and then they're going to move on. Hopefully they're not going to do that forever.

They're going to graduate into the other nuances of the sport that present more challenges and more. Not to say. I mean, I just think that's kind of what it's all about.

I mean, I wouldn't take a kid and start them out with the hardest thing, by any means.

Yeah, And I would say too, you know, that's even before we talk about, you know, now kind of the comp guys have kind of brought the jig hook game to small streamers. Right. And so, you know, to be able to have that kind of line control and, you know.

Cause I know you talk a lot about, like, you know, it's not just a dead drift. Like you've got multiple presentations and that, that jig presentation and Particularly when it's cold like it is now.

Like, we're going to warm up a little bit in the mid Atlantic, but that water is going to be cold for a good while.

The ability to basically pause and hang that fly and to animate it is a really, really powerful bite trigger, you know, because those fish are going to be pretty lethargic. So, I mean, that's kind of another error you can put in your quiver as well.

Oh, it is. And then it goes on to, like, the balance. You know, the balance flies for, like, on lakes and things where we don't want the jigsaw.

You know, once I get used to seeing that up, down, I mean, that works great. When I hadn't seen it, you know, jigging like. Like streamers and things in a deep run. But then you get like, in the.

Even in a deep run in the winter, a lot of times, a balance, something that's more balanced actually gives you a better result, which is fun, too, for. For. I don't know. I had to do that a lot.

I remember fishing a lot of those balance flies with the kids when they were small, and there was times where those would outproduce, you know what I mean? Like on a jig, like number 10 jig hook or number eight, just because it.

The fish got used to it, you know, and they'd see something go up, down, too dramatic. Then it was better to see it, just the whole. The whole silhouette, sink level instead of like, diving nose first every time.

And then you go to lake fishing, right?

You put that under an indicator, and those things are just moving up and down really gently, just with a little bit of the wave on the surface of the water, right?

Yeah, that works really good. Like, if there's a little bit of chop, a little bit of chop up top, and it gives it a, you know, really nice action underneath.

So, yeah, but it really is a good gateway. One of the guys that was in the streamer talk there in Atlanta when we finished, you know, he was asking, he's like, I'm brand new. I hadn't even.

I haven't even gone yet. And I said, well, this is actually a good way for you to get into it. Like, just keep your eyes, you know, open.

This time of year and into springtime is a great way for somebody new to get some. Get some results. You know, just sit there and tell somebody brand new to dry fly is a whole lot different.

I mean, it's like to get somebody where they're really going to dry fly. Well, I think Takes a whole lot more years of experience. So, I mean, I wouldn't recommend that for anybody starting out.

Even though we started out that way, I think that that's the best way. After all these years gotten and being involved with schools and education, I think streamers really the best gateways to get them into it. Yeah.

And the great thing is, you know, I don't know. Gosh, probably the last 10 to 15 years in fly fishing, you know, we've had such phenomenal improvements in terms of, you know, lines.

So, like, I mean, I just think about, you know, when I first started fly fishing versus today, like, how many lines sa makes right then also how much better the rods, particularly the bigger rods have gotten. You know, it's not just trout.

I mean, you can pretty much, if it swims, you can catch it on a streamer, and you can just kind of work on that thing and go all the way from, you know, trout on the tuckaseegee to catching, you know, marlin if you want to.

That's right. No, that's true. The lines have really come a long ways, you know, with throwing these different setups as well for streamers and. Yeah, it's a.

It's definitely a. It's a fun way to fish. I mean, I. I still enjoy it a lot still. I mean, if it's the right scenario, it's the fastest way to put fish up.

I mean, it really is. I mean, there's times where it is the fastest way. I remember one of the times. I wasn't gonna say this, but it just came to me.

But one of the times in the rumble where they used to put all the fish in, you know, the week before the tournament in Cherokee, and, you know, people would take off and they'd be nymphing and trying all these different things.

But if you had, like a lot of big 58 centimeter fish in Iran, you could hook them one after the other, just boom, boom, boom, and be done in 10 minutes on a streamer. But if you were trying to nymph all those fish out, it wouldn't have happened in 10 minutes.

So there's a time where it's much faster for activity to be done quick, you know what I mean? And land a bunch of nice fish really quick, because that's the scenario we're talking about.

When they're new like that, it's definitely the best time to put somebody in there that hasn't done it before.

Absolutely. And I know, too, you know, you've got a. This is your break in the fly fishing show season.

So you're not on the road this week to get on the road next week to go to Bellevue and then I will see you in Denver the following week.

That's right. We're looking forward to Denver because Christopher's coming by. I'm looking forward to all of them but Bellevue and all those are going to be great.

I'm looking forward to Bellevue as well. I saw Travis Johnson's going to be there. He's like Mike, I think, national record holder in spay casting. And Maxine McCormick's going to be there.

She's, of course, I'm a huge fan of Maxine and she's one of my heroes. And she's going to be doing a demo. So we'll get to talk with her and hopefully get to spend some time with both of those folks.

And there's still a lot of good shows to come and Denver's going to have a lot of good, good folks. Be fun to catch up with. And then San Francisco, Lancaster and Great Waters. And that's it for me. So I'm glad to be off a week, Marvin.

I'm really tired after yesterday when I got in, I could tell I was fatigued.

Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, I'm tired from getting back so late last night for Michigan as well. And, you know, I'm excited too, for Denver.

I've got, you know, two talks there, doing one talk that I do basically talk taking people through, you know, trout through the seasons and basically how to approach, you know, all four seasons on the water. And then I've got another one. You know, Mac, you know, I'm a nut about process. So I've got another.

I've got another talk to kind of help people come up with a process to be more successful in the water. So I'm excited to, to see, you know, folks out there and to offer those presentations.

Well, that'll be good. I don't even know what the. I should know, but I don't know what they are yet, what I'm going to do. But.

But I'm sure there'll be some presentations on, on something about related to fishing, but I'm not sure what they are yet. I haven't, I haven't looked at it actually yet. So. But it was busy.

I think they sent it out when we were in the middle of Atlanta and I, I'm like, well, I'll look at it next week when I have some time off. So. Yeah, but I'm looking forward to it. I know Christopher will be there.

Again, coming back from Switzerland, I know Rick Hartman's going to be up there from Texas. I know a lot of the, a lot of my folks that live out there and like Utah and Wyoming are planning on coming down to us.

There's going to be a lot of fishy people in Denver. I really think that's, that's my, one of my favorite ones in the whole, whole country for sure.

Yeah, absolutely.

And folks, if you're interested in predator flies, you know, you may or may not have seen this, but one of my new projects for 2025 is actually a new podcast series focusing on predator flies called the Butcher Shop. And you can find that wherever episodes will start coming out probably in about a month. And I'm super excited.

I think the first three guests are Blaine Chocolate, Russ Madden and Tommy Lynch. But go subscribe wherever you get your podcast. There's a teaser episode out there so that you're ready to go when the first episode drops.

And you know, Mac, why don't you let folks know where folks can find you because you won't be teaching at the shows forever and you'll be back home and you'll be guiding and doing schools.

Well, the best one like you can email us at either fly fishing school, which is a five day classes we offer and it talks about all the dates and things for that and how to get enrolled. I just, we opened enrollment for that a couple weeks ago. And then Mac, Brown Fly Fish is my, my other website.

So that's the same names on Instagram and they're on Facebook as well. So they can reach me off any one of those.

Well, there you go. And as I say, folks, you know, if it's warm enough, get out there and fish. If you can't fish, tie some flies or go to a fly fishing show.

Tight lines, everybody. Tight lines, Mac.

Tight lines. Marvin.