S7, Ep 15: Frosty Flows: Navigating Winter Waters and Techniques in the Driftless with PJ Smith

Marvin Cash
00:00:03

Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly. On this episode, PJ Smith returns to the podcast. PJ and I discuss Bobbin 2025 and we take a deep dive into winter fishing in the Driftless.

I think you're really going to enjoy this one, but before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice.

It really helps us out and thanks to our friends at the Fly Fishing show for sponsoring the episode. The 2025 season is in full swing with the show stopping in Bellevue this weekend before heading on to Denver, Pleasanton and Lancaster.

Come out and visit with old friends and make a few new ones. It should be a great time for dates, ticket and class info and other event details.

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Use code artfly20 artfly20 all one word for 20% off of your Trout Routes Pro membership at maps.troutroutes.com now on to our interview. Will PJ welcome back to the Articulate Fly.

PJ Smith
00:01:49

Thank you very much for having me. Looking forward to a nice chat about winter fishing.

Marvin Cash
00:01:55

Absolutely. And you know, it was great seeing you at Bob and I always love kind of, you know, meeting guests in person and meeting listeners in person.

You know, it was a fantastic weekend. What was the highlight for you?

PJ Smith
00:02:07

Oh, the highlight. Boy, I I got to see a lot of friends that I haven't seen in a while. Some awesome, awesome tires there. Just the skill level.

These guys definitely are some of the best tires around the nation. That was probably a big thing for me. Got to see some really cool patterns.

Listening to some of the guys in the hot seat, that was kind of cool in the shop. I think it was Charlie Craven seeing his baby Goonga that it's actually a really good pattern that I really like.

So being able to see that being done firsthand was awesome. So I'm planning, I've actually got some materials, planning on tying some more of that when I can. And then yeah, just seeing all the people there.

Very like minded people. So yeah, those shows are awesome. It was really nice. Weather turned out really good. So definitely a fun, fun time there in Ypsilanti.

Marvin Cash
00:03:18

So yeah, neat. And so, you know, have to ask you, I don't think we've. We've kind of pinged each other on social media throughout the fishing season.

But, you know, how was your 2024 season?

PJ Smith
00:03:30

2024 season was really good. We, you know, trout fishing was really good. Right around June, things really started to heat up. So trout fishing kind of got put on hold.

We really focused on the smallmouth fishing which will definitely be doing again this year. We're almost to the point where we're gonna kind of shut off our trout fishing around June, switch over to smallmouth pike and muskie.

Obviously weather dependent, but yeah, season was really good. Smallmouth fishing was awesome. Even we had some high water events that kind of put a little damper on some stuff, but we were able to get back at it.

I had to move a few clients, but we were able to get everybody in.

And then right towards the end of the season, I believe, like end of August, I was pretty much booked up until mid October, so one of my better seasons to be booked up. And we're looking to basically be doing the same thing again this year.

So yeah, I mean, it was great fish and you know, it was really awesome to spend so much more time in the drift boat. I really enjoyed doing that. So. Yeah, good, good. 2024 season.

Marvin Cash
00:05:01

Yeah, that's great. And so how was your deer season?

PJ Smith
00:05:04

Deer season was good. I put a couple in the freezer.

It's always super fun to kind of finish out and head to Missouri, head to our farm there and just kind of, I don't know, fill the batteries and just kind of do my own thing, not have to worry about clients. I love my clients dearly, but it's nice to just kind of have some alone time. My wife was able to come and visit for a week.

I was able to do a lot of work on the farm while I was there. So yeah, super fun. Got some deer, filled the freezer. Yeah, it was great.

Marvin Cash
00:05:49

Well, that's awesome.

And so you know, your home waters are in the driftless area and you know, for folks that aren't familiar, can you tell us a little about the area and kind of what makes it so special?

PJ Smith
00:05:59

Sure. The driftless area, it incorporates a Lot of land. It's in four states, so it's in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa and a little piece of Illinois.

And it's mostly on either side of the Mississippi. And it is where the glaciers did not advance. So it kind of like a big rock in the middle of a creek or river.

So the, when the glaciers came down, they split around and kind of encircled this area as kind of a high point. So we have really deep ravines. In those deep ravines, there's nice little creeks that spring up.

So spring creeks, and they hold awesome little trout, either browns or brookies. There are some places that they've put in rainbows in that too. Obviously the browns were brought in, but the brookies are kind of the true native.

But yeah, it's a really special place. Kind of untouched to a certain point.

I mean there's a lot of farming, agriculture going on, but overall it's, it's just a great area that's kind of a hidden gem that some people know about and slowly more and more people are finding out. But it, it's awesome fishing. Doesn't matter what side you're on, whether you're on the Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa.

Not too much going on in Illinois side. But again, there are some waters there. So. Yeah, but pretty special, pretty special area. Yeah.

Marvin Cash
00:07:53

And kind of, I guess maybe an analog a little bit would maybe be some of our like Pennsylvania spring fed creeks, right?

PJ Smith
00:07:59

Yeah, most definitely. There's, there's a lot of water that is similar. When we've been to Vermont, some of those creeks, they're very similar.

Small, very tight areas that just kind of meander through, you know, the landscape. And nice small tight areas that you can use a nice three weight. Sometimes it's wooded, sometimes it's open pasture land.

But uh, it's really a good, good place to kind of just get out in nature, I would say. But yeah, super fun.

Marvin Cash
00:08:45

Yeah. And you wanted to come back on the podcast to talk about winter fishing in the Driftless and I was kind of curious. I saw these posts.

You know, winter season is opening, I guess is there an official winter season? Or I guess maybe you have a closed season and then it opens and it happens to open in the wintertime.

PJ Smith
00:09:01

Yeah.

So our season officially opens for a catch and release season the first Saturday in January and then that season will go to the first Saturday in May and then it opens up fully. So there's a catch and keep season that kind of starts and then the season goes all the way. Then this is for trout.

Season goes all the way to October 15th, and then it shuts off. And that's to kind of allow for hunting here in Wisconsin. It also allows the fish to kind of spawn without being harassed, I would say.

Not that guys are harassing the fish, but kind of gives them a break. So we've got a few months off. It's kind of nice for me because then I can go deer hunting in that. But it's.

You know, there are other areas I know over in Minnesota and Iowa, There's a little bit of water that you can actually fish all season. But here in Wisconsin, they give them a break, and then we fire right back up in. In January. So.

So we get that winter into spring, fall, you know, summer, and then into fall. So we kind of hit all the seasons.

Marvin Cash
00:10:23

Got it. And, you know, I was just up in with you in Michigan, so I was reacquainted with how cold it is in the wintertime in the. In the Midwest.

And I'm getting. I'm getting soft. It's not as cold in the mid Atlantic as it was when I was a kid.

But, you know, before we get to, you know, like, tackle, why don't we talk about, you know, how you go fish in the wintertime and you don't freeze to death.

PJ Smith
00:10:47

Yeah, so that's a huge question that I get a lot. Some guys really do not like to fish when it's super cold. I kind of look at. It's just a great way to get out.

It kind of helps that cabin fever that a lot of guys will get. So I think it's super fun. I definitely will pick nicer days. You can definitely sleep in. You don't have to get out there at the crack of dawn.

It's a time where you can pick your days. You're looking at weather. You want kind of some time where it. It's gonna be fairly comfortable for you to be out.

I was out for the opener this year, and it was 16 degrees, which was pretty cold. Not fun. I did get into some fish, but it was not. Definitely not ideal. And I wasn't out there that long.

But overall, I'd say anything in that 25 plus degrees is not too bad. And that would be air temperature. And then you want to kind of watch the water temperature as well. If we had snow on the ground when it's.

When it's really warm, you kind of got to watch because you want to make sure that if it is really warm, you want to watch that melt water going in because it'll actually drop the temperature significantly. So you're kind of looking at that 9:00 to say about one 2:00 in the afternoon. Ideal.

Having a thermometer with you to check those water temps is pretty critical because you will see, especially if you have snowpack, you will see during that afternoon. All of a sudden you're not hooking into fish, you're not seeing any risers. So that usually means the water temps actually going back down.

So some people will be like, well, it's so warm outside. But I'm like, you're getting that snow melt in there and it's making changes.

So when you, when you are getting out there, you want to make sure you wear the proper clothes. You're looking for those layers. Layers are a big thing. I actually wear like a, almost like a sun shirt or quick dry shirt for underneath.

And then I'll layer like a wool sweater or a fleece sweater. And then depending on conditions, I'll wear like a rain jacket, wind jacket, or like a puffy. So it depends on how cold it is.

We were talking about gloves. That's always the hard part for a lot of people. Nitrile gloves are definitely a key for that. We've added them so you can wear those.

Nitro gloves keeps your hands warm to a certain degree. Again, they have no insulating value, but they keep your hands from getting wet. Wet hands make cold hands.

So if you keep your hands dry, the other thing I carry is a small towel. When your hands do get wet, you can dry them off quickly. And then as far as the bottoms go, good Gore Tex waders or breathable waders, I guess.

Now Gore Texes kind of on the out, but good breathable waders. I usually get away with a pair of wool socks, like heavier wool socks, nothing too big.

I don't want to over pack my feet into my boots because when you start cutting off that circulation there, then next thing you know, you have cold feet. So a lot of people think you've got to like super bundle and you don't have to.

But so if you kind of go that way, I mean, if it's really cold or you tend to run cold, having like long johns and then like fleece pants and then maybe a thin sock and then an over sock, that kind of works too. You want to make sure your gear, if it feels tight, it's not going to be great for you. So some people will wear different gear.

You know, they'll have like a winter setup and then like a summer setup, if that makes sense.

Marvin Cash
00:15:29

Yeah, it does. I mean, it's one of the reasons why, like, I know every time I buy boots, you know, I'm always getting a size larger. Right. Just because I.

I want to have, you know, that room to. To. To your point, not, you know, cut off the circulation of my feet and feel like it's freezing, you know, Also, too, you know, it's interesting.

It's kind of funny.

Like, I keep having this kind of running debate with my steelhead buddies, but I always wear, like, you know, it's one thing if you're wearing, like, a light puffy and it's not really cold, but, like, if I'm steelheading and I need to wear, like, a heavier coat, I always put that on over my waders to trap all that heat.

PJ Smith
00:16:07

Yeah, I tend to put stuff over the top. When you try to start stuffing your waiters again, I'm a big guy, and my waiter. You can only stuff so much into a sausage casing, you might say.

So, yeah, I tend to put it over the top, and it does kind of help trap that heat. Again, I'm not going super deep. These streams are really kind of shallow. I'm not gonna, you know, if I go above my knees, that's. That's pretty deep.

So I. I try to limit myself how deep I go. And then I can layer that heavier jacket over the top, because if you're.

If you're stuffing it in, you're actually kind of defeating the. The insulating properties of it. So I'm. I'm kind of. I want to keep it loose. I want to be able to move around easily. So you're. You.

You want to make sure you've got that ability to do that. Like, an over jacket needs to be big enough. I mean, even a.

A rain jacket over a sweater will help you stay pretty well insulated because you've got that air trapped underneath, say, like a rain jacket. So that kind of helps.

And then you also want to make sure the other thing is, is, like, wearing, like, a hat and maybe a stocking cap over that kind of like a steel header style. I wear a regular ball cap, and then I wear stocking cap over the top of that. So. So I've kind of got that coverage from the sun. And then.

Marvin Cash
00:17:51

Yeah, yeah. It's funny you say that because I've got a Sims wind stopper stocking cap that, like, there's no way I would part with that thing.

PJ Smith
00:17:59

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You kind of. Again, you start picking out gear that really works for you. I mean, I've been.

I've done enough mountaineering and climbing out west and stuff like that, so I've, I've got a lot of carryover from that.

I really like fleece, but now some of the polar puffy type stuff, I can't think of the name of what a lot of the insulating stuff, it's kind of like a down jacket, but it's, it's that polar material. That stuff is amazing right now and it doesn't, it doesn't really lose its value if it gets a little wet. So it's kind, it's super nice.

Many of the manufacturers are using that. So. And it's nice and lightweight too, where like fleece can be kind of heavy. Like a wool sweater is pretty heavy.

Again, I kind of like the older school, but that's just kind of me. There's a lot of good fabrics out there.

The other thing I do, I will keep us like a pair of mittens with me or some heavier gloves just so if my hands do start to get cold, I can shove those, my hands, even with the nitro glove on. I'll shove them into my gloves or mittens. And then I'll also carry some hand warmers, usually just the chemical ones. Super easy to carry.

So it kind of works out that way because once your hands start getting cold or if they get really cold, it's really hard to come back from that. So you really have to know what your limits are. And we're not going out for eight hours. It's usually at the most maybe a four hour trip.

And most of the time it's actually more like two. So kind of limited that way.

Marvin Cash
00:19:57

Yeah. And I've got those Sims steelheading gloves that I really like that are like the mittens with the. You peel them back and they have the fingers.

PJ Smith
00:20:04

Oh yeah.

Marvin Cash
00:20:04

And you wear the nitrile underneath those. And you know, you can do a lot. And you can tuck hand warmers in the tops of your hands in that and it works pretty well.

PJ Smith
00:20:13

Oh yeah, Yeah. I mean, again, my hands tend to stay fairly good. But I know other people just have problems with their hands. That's usually the deciding factor.

Or even with their legs, they don't have the best circulation. I try to tell people, don't be afraid to put some calories on either. That's another thing coming from the climbing side of the world.

You know, it wouldn't be unheard of us throwing like 4 or 5,000 calories down at a time because you've got to fuel that engine. So don't be afraid to have those pancakes in the morning with some syrup and butter. So you want to, you want to keep yourself fueled.

I try to keep myself pretty hydrated as well. When you're dehydrated it will definitely affect your circulation. So I try to stay pretty hydrated. I will have a little flask.

It's always kind of nice again don't overdo it because you don't want to stumble or anything like that. But just little things like that kind of make the day kind of fun again.

We're, we're going out to have a good time, be out in nature, try to catch some fish and you know, spend some time with friends and family and stuff. So. But you want to have a good time at it. So be smart about it.

I mean I see some guys that they're like oh I threw a granola bar and that should be, that should cover me. I'm like oh yeah, you're gonna have a hard day especially if it's windy and cold.

Marvin Cash
00:21:59

So yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, I think we've pretty well covered the kind of the non fishing part of the gear.

You know what's your preferred like rod, reel and line and leader set up for winter fishing.

PJ Smith
00:22:11

So preferred rod, reel. I usually fish really lightweight stuff but for winter time I kind of will go up.

I'll either a 4 or a 5 weight because I'm usually throwing slightly heavier nymphs. As far as real goes, it's, it's my standard go to.

I run Orvis H3s or H4s now and reels just either the Helios or one of those just a standard reel setup. I use the same line that I do throughout the season which is scientific. Angler creek trout. It is a phenomenal especially for the short game.

It loads the rod properly. It's really nice. Holds up to the weather pretty well and will turn over just about everything. Even like streamers and stuff like that.

As far as leader goes, I'll usually run like a 7 foot or a 7 and a half foot 3x, maybe a 4x. Kind of depends. Especially now we've got thinner water so I may downsize a little bit using that shorter leader. Like a seven and a half footer.

I can always add on some tip it as I need and then go down that size. So if it's 3x I'll drop down to 4 or 5x. I try to keep it fairly, fairly easy and that, that's really kind of my go to for any season.

But in the wintertime, I'll usually try to stick to that. I am throwing slightly bigger nymphs, jigs, stuff like that. That will takes a little bit more to turn over, plus the indicator in that.

So that's kind of my standard setup. Again, I adjust as need be, but pretty standard like that and then that throughout the season so I don't have to change up too much.

Marvin Cash
00:24:25

Got it. And I would imagine that I haven't, you know, seen that fly line from essay before.

I'm assuming it's probably a really aggressive like weight forward taper.

PJ Smith
00:24:36

Yeah, when they first came out with it, it used to be called the sbt. So short belly taper. And then they've changed it to creek trout. So it is, I believe it is a line heavy.

So three weight would be a four weight and so on. So a four weight is actually a five weight. They've concentrated it super tight to the front of the head, all that weight.

So on these creeks you're not casting very far. A 25 foot cast is far.

I mean there are some areas where you will cast farther, but most of the time you're casting maybe as short as 10ft or less, all the way up to maybe 25ft if you get into a long run and stuff like that. But it, it's a great, I mean that really was a game changer. So it helps load those rods. So you're kind of looking for that.

A lot of times the, the bellies on a lot of these lines are made, you know, 30ft plus. Well, if you're not even casting over 30ft, you've got to load that rod.

That's why so many people started overlining, especially here in the driftless. So yeah, I, I talked to sa. Those guys over there are awesome. Eric, he's like, you gotta try this line out there in the driftless.

And I'll tell it, it truly was one of those like the holy like line that just really started setting it off for me. It just, it makes everything a little bit easier. Some people like other lines from SA but this for my, for my game, it works really well.

It's nice for clients too because they. It's sometimes hard for them to load the line.

This line will help load that rod a little better, especially the smaller rods, you know, the threes and the fours that I'm using it. It helps load that rod properly.

Marvin Cash
00:26:47

Got it. And you know, so I think we've covered the tackle part pretty well. Let's talk a little bit about your preferred flies.

PJ Smith
00:26:54

So preferred Flies. I have a number of them. I kind of like little streamer patterns, kind of like a small slump buster.

I'll actually tie a slump buster with pine squirrel. And then a cone head. Works super awesome. I have a couple other little patterns. I call them a jiggy nymph streamer.

So there's on slightly bigger jig hooks, tungsten bead. And then I'll use like a pine squirrel. I love pine squirrel for kind of a nymphy type pattern. It moves really well, holds up really well.

I mean, it's like a rabbit strip. But being pine squirrel, it's got that shorter hair, comes in a lot of awesome colors. And then adding a little rubber legs to it. You know, beads.

You can get beads now in all kinds of colors. So I might throw like an orange or a pink bead on there to kind of add a little flash to it. Something they can kind of target.

I've got a couple other, like, nymph patterns that are a little more traditional looking. I. I do like a jig hook. So I'll tie these smaller nymphs still on a jig hook still, usually with a tungsten bead.

But then I'll add like a kind of a hot spot with a little bit of dubbing or just. I usually use like a fluorescent red thread or orange thread, sometimes chartreuse. Just something that'll make it pop just a little bit.

Most of the time those fish can see those flies. They're really good at seed. But I think you got to get those flies down pretty well. That's where the tungsten really works. Bigger cones, etc.

So you're getting it down into their zone again. These fish are in colder water, a little more lethargic. Oh, I'm sure, you know, so mostly nymphs. And then I will run some, oh, bigger streamers.

I actually like that. Baby goonga would definitely be on the list for. For a fly to use. There's another one called Sculptzilla. Great little articulated fly.

Gets down really deep, little bit bigger. So, yeah, kind of that streamer pattern, I don't know. I don't get too hung up on a ton of different things. I think a lot of times it's.

It's fly placement over exact fly to use. But you know, the typical colors, olive, natural, a little bit of white or gray.

I like to add a little chartreuse to a few of them, a little paint to some of them. Obviously. Another one that comes to mind, speaking of pink, is the pink squirrel.

It's A very well known fly here in the Driftless on the Wisconsin side and it's been used all over. Great little pattern. John Bethke made this fly and it, it's super awesome. I kind of tie it in a tungsten bead as well, which is kind of cool. So.

Marvin Cash
00:30:32

Yeah. And to kind of help people. It's kind of funny, right. Because small streamer means different things to different folks. So.

PJ Smith
00:30:39

Right. I should, I should caveat that. Yeah. A small streamer, we're talking nothing more than a, Nothing bigger than 2 inches.

I know some guys will use bigger. I know in some areas, you know, they're using 3, 4, 5 inch streamers. They're getting fish to move on them.

But overall where I'm fishing, these streams are pretty small. If I, if I found a spot that was open, had a really deep pool. Really?

Oh, I'm trying to think here like a bigger spot that might need to get a little bit deeper. I might throw something on a little bit bigger again. That baby gonga would be a pattern that you could get down pretty well.

That's going to actually get noticed pretty quick. In the real cold water though.

They're going to, to me, I think they key in on slightly smaller stuff that they know that they can attack and get because. Because they're cold. Everything's cold. That's the other tactic. Like you got to go low and slow. It's not a speed thing with the water.

Temps being in that cold range, go a little bit slower than you normally would. When you do hit daiso, just kind of keep going on that stuff. You can kind of speed stuff up. You might go a slightly bigger fly.

The other thing I keep on hand, I also run some dries now and again. We get a small black stone fly that comes off. So I do carry some like kind of a black stone fly pattern that's kind of a dry.

I kind of, I call it like a foam stimulator. And it's got a black body to it, nice and thin profile. It works great during the summer as well for kind of a hopper or a cricket pattern.

But it will work pretty good for a. When those Blackstone flies come off too. So don't be opposed to using some of your rigs that have like a hopper dropper set up on it.

They still know what stuff landed on top of the water. And moving is. They haven't completely forgotten. So it can, can be handy. Usually it's on a nicer day.

It's one of those days where you can get away with Just wearing like a hoodie if it's warmer, like that hoodie and hopper dropper setup or a, or doesn't have to be a hopper. You know, you could use a bigger like caddis type fly or something like that. So.

Marvin Cash
00:33:42

Yeah, and so it's interesting. So on the nymph side, I imagine you're probably fishing what, like 16s and 18s.

PJ Smith
00:33:48

Yeah. Right in that zone. They tend to be small, although with those jiggy nymphs, they're probably right around maybe a 12. So.

But most of the stuff I'm fishing in the driftless is all pretty small, so. And don't be afraid to tie smaller flies on bigger hooks because you get that better hook app.

But yeah, like 18 is pretty small for a nymph, so I'd say 16. I mean, I've used 18s but I tend to just. I'll just tie smaller on a 16 because I want that hook gap there.

Yeah, the jig hooks are nice because they've got a really big hook gap. So that's why I kind of gravitate towards those hooks as well. I like that bigger hook gap.

And they're, they seem to always be super sharp right out of the package. So.

Marvin Cash
00:34:44

Yeah, the, the barbless stuff will definitely draw blood these days, for sure.

PJ Smith
00:34:49

Yeah. Yeah.

Marvin Cash
00:34:51

And so, you know, I think we've got kind of, you know, how not to freeze to death. We, we've got rod reel line leader, we've got fly selection. Tell us a little bit about kind of how you approach and break down the water.

PJ Smith
00:35:03

So a lot of times I will scout water again. Winter time's an awesome time to kind of scout get out there. I'm looking for water obviously that is not frozen. That's kind of a key.

Something that doesn't have too much shelf ice. That's more of a safety thing. But when you start finding water that's open one, it usually has a spring, so the water's coming out of the ground.

The riffle sections usually tend to be open because that water's broken, it's moving a little faster, it tends to stay open a little bit more. The big long stretches, you know, like a big giant pool, will tend to freeze over at times.

Unless there's a spring coming in or if, obviously if the water is a little bit warmer, say you get several sunny days and the temperature starts getting above that freezing point, it'll start opening up those areas. So I'm looking for that. I usually will fish downstream. I tend to like to swing some of My streamers and those big jiggy nymphs.

And I tend to look for spots where the riffles kind of end and kind of go into a pool or a run that's got a little extra depth and try to swing them right through there.

So kind of like a, you know, that's where I'm looking for is, is say like a nymph got dislodged off of that riffle section and it happened to dump in to the head of a pool or, or a run. That's what we're looking for. Swinging that into there also works really good for streamers.

You know, if you've got a small bait fish type streamer, because it, it's a fish that kind of got dislodged that was maybe farther up and then swings through there. So the fish will kind of hang out underneath there, dart in, grab that fly. I'll also look for deeper pools as long as it's open.

And that's where I'm gonna start maybe dredging a little bit deeper.

So I'm casting maybe a little bit more 45 degree angle or, or more so that it can get some depth down there and be able to swing down through that area a little deeper or even doing that, you know, upstream fishing. So you're getting that depth nice and slow and getting through to the bottom.

And then obviously, if I'm running my copper dropper style, dry dropper, I'm going to be looking for areas that have a little more depth but not too deep.

Again, that kind of run right after a riffle where I think those fish might be lying so that they can kind of attack something that would come off of that riffle because that's usually where a lot of the small little nymphs and stuff are going to be.

Or if it gets warm enough, that's where say these stone flies will kind of come out sun themselves and then if they happen to fall in there, that's what they're kind of looking for. So.

Marvin Cash
00:38:29

Yeah, and the neat thing too is all those places you talked about are all the places in the summertime where the water is going to be cooler because that's where the springs are.

PJ Smith
00:38:36

Exactly. Yeah.

So that's the other kind of fun thing is that, you know, if it's really cold and say it's too cold to fish, it's actually a great time to run around and just kind of look at water because you're going to find where all this, those little warm water outlets are. But the weird thing is in the Summer, that's the cold water, because that water kind of stays consistent. It's coming out so those springs popping up.

So it's a great way to just get out there, find some cool water that you can fish. And you can usually fish it almost all season. I usually, when the water does get really hot during the summer, those fish use that as kind of a.

That's their only reprieve. So I do try to stay away from it when it's really hot. But it is a great way to find where those springs are. Those fish will gravitate towards there.

So. But yeah, and then, yeah, you're kind of looking for spots that you would look for most of the time.

I will tend to fish a little bit more in the riffles because they will move up at certain times because the bugs get a little more active. So they'll move up into the riffles. So you're kind of hitting little pocket water sometimes. So that's.

That's always kind of fun to, to kind of hit that a little bit, you know. And the cool thing is you don't have to have an indicator all the time for that. You can kind of just do it by feel or sight. It's not really.

Not super deep there.

So yeah, when you, when you do find them though, I kind of, you know, that's a pattern that you'll be like, okay, at this temperature at this time, this is where they tend to be.

And then if you happen to hit those weather windows like that, that's actually, you know, you can pretty much go to any stretch of water and if it's got a similar temperature, similar layout, riffles, etc. That's just like an awesome time to hit all that. So you've kind of patterned them so that later on you can hit that same water.

And that's good to like write that down in your notebook if you're, if you keep notes so that when you do, you know, from year to year, you'll start seeing that they pattern very similar during certain times.

Marvin Cash
00:41:11

Yeah, it's funny you say that. So like around here I use trout routes to drop those pins and drop those notes because, you know, I'm not like you.

I'm not on the same place pieces of water frequently enough to be able to like commit it to memory with a notebook.

But yeah, I mean, it's an amazing thing to kind of start collecting that information or, you know, like around here, you know, you can get yourself in places that you have a hard time getting out of. So that's another great use for that application too. You know, if folks want to get more information about, you know, access.

Because I know you've got a really robust access program in the Driftless and, you know, other fishing information. Where should they go?

PJ Smith
00:41:54

So there, there is some great. You just mentioned one, the trout routes. Trout routes have really done well.

They're set up and I actually don't run it, although I have been looking at it. But trout routes is really good. It kind of helps you kind of find some water and then it also helps you find where you can park and access.

Our access here in Wisconsin, throughout Wisconsin is pretty amazing. There's a lot of maps there. You can actually go to the Wisconsin DNR site.

They have very similar maps that trout routes have, but it, it doesn't cover everything.

Some of counties are a little different with their access and that the nice thing is is TU has been really active in trying to put up signage for a lot of these places so that you kind of know where these access points are as well. Because not everybody is like computer savvy. So it is kind of helpful that way. I encourage people to get a guide.

Of course, guides usually know where all the great access is. I'm fishing water that is open to the public. So, you know, getting a guide that can kind of start you on your way is, is great. There's also maps.

If you get the paper map, like when you get your license, they're usually at the say like the hardware store or wherever you can buy like a license. I usually get mine online, but I'll hit the hardware store to pick up some. Some maps. So every year they come out with the trout maps for that.

And that's actually a really good way to kind of find some water as well. So maps kind of old school way of doing it. But that really has helped me. That's kind of how I started years and years ago. So. Yeah, yeah.

Marvin Cash
00:44:05

I've got all the gazetteers for where I fish. Under the waterproof mat in the back of the car.

PJ Smith
00:44:10

Exactly. Yeah. Those gazetteers are awesome.

Marvin Cash
00:44:13

Yeah.

And so, you know, for folks that don't know, PJ's Guide Services and Orvis endorsed guide service and you guide for lots of other stuff other than trout. You want to kind of tell folks kind of what you offer.

PJ Smith
00:44:25

Yeah. So we are an Orvis endorsed guide company. We offer Walk and Wade for trout. We also offer trout drift trips in the area.

We're one of just a few guide services that allow that. And then we also do smallmouth pike and muskie float trips on some of the larger rivers in the area.

Like we'll go over to the Wisconsin and other bigger rivers like that. So we have a 15 foot stealth graft drift boat that we're running and then we also run a stealth craft raft. So. And then obviously Wacom Wade.

We do some trout schools in the springtime. We're also starting to offer now, like custom trout schools. If you can get a few people together, you can come here.

We have lodging and stuff like that so that you can stay here. My wife helps teach. She's a certified casting instructor. So we're able to offer a lot of plans for people.

If you're just getting started, we can help you. If you're a seasoned angler, we can help you.

So there's a lot of stuff that, you know, if you, even if you're brand new, don't have all the gear, we can handle that. We obviously carry a lot of Orvis stuff. The only thing we don't do are waders, so too many sizes for that. But yeah, we can.

If you want to get on the water, we can do custom stuff. If you have a somebody that is maybe not into angling, the cool part is you can bring them here. There's awesome stuff to do in town and around.

And then we can take you fishing and then they can take the car and go off and have an adventure that way. So a lot of options.

Marvin Cash
00:46:37

Very neat. And so what's a day on the water with PJ like?

PJ Smith
00:46:41

Oh, so we usually. Well, wintertime it's. It's usually just a half a day. So four hours, we get out to the water and then do four hours and warm up and. And all that.

If we're doing a full day trip, say in the summertime, we will tend to get out early and then we will hit a couple of different stretches.

So we'll get out in the morning, hit one area, we'll break for lunch, then we'll go hit another spot, either in the same watershed or move over to another piece of water and hit that. If we're doing a float trip, we will be heading downstream and obviously take a break for lunch.

I sometimes will cook on the boat or we'll set it all up. The boat's really comfortable so we can do it all from there.

So we'll get about eight hours plus, depending on how the river's fishing, how the day's going, how everybody's holding up. Usually most people, they get about eight hours in and they're pretty done with fishing. But sometimes I can go a little bit longer.

Just kind of depends on the day and how everybody is feeling in that. So yeah. And then like for schools we tend to do those like two day schools.

We do breakfast and lunch here at our place so that we don't have to like herd cats to a, to a restaurant and do all that. We've, we've got you here.

We're gonna start talking about fishing and then we actually do get out on the water and try to do as much on the water as we can. So. And that's usually two days. That's about most people. You know, that's a lot of information. We'll shove five years of information down you.

But we have, you know, a notebook and stuff like that for you to like look back and you can see what we were talking about. Remind yourself in that. So yeah, we set it up how you want it to be set up. I do a lot of like kids trips with parents. That's always kind of fun.

The kids have a great time. Usually by the afternoon they're about burnt out.

So they like to pick rocks or look at bugs or look at rocks and then the adults can fish for a little bit. Yeah, it just makes for a great day.

Marvin Cash
00:49:26

Very, very neat.

And I guess at this point we're probably about halfway through show season and I was wondering, are people going to be able to catch up with you somewhere on the road, you know, for the next. I don't know. We got probably another six or eight weeks of this left.

PJ Smith
00:49:39

Yeah. So we're doing a couple of shows. We're doing the Wisconsin fishing show and that's coming up. That's February 21st to the 23rd. We'll be there.

We've got a booth there. We're in the hallway. So come on down. We'll actually have a raft there in our booth.

And then my wife is actually giving a presentation for beginner fly fishing at that show. And then we're also going to be at Great Waters. My wife will be teaching casting there and then I'll be at the tires rows.

And that's going to be March 21st to the 23rd. So that's, that's also coming up. That's a great show. Then that's in Great Waters is going to be in Minnesota right there in the Twin Cities.

So fun little show, that Wisconsin fishing show. That's going to be in Madison.

And then I'm probably going to try to do a couple other shows more of just kind of helping out Stealthcraft where I can again if it all, it's all weather dependent but yeah, those are the two shows we're really going to be doing.

Marvin Cash
00:51:01

Got it. And I'll drop links to those in the show notes.

And you know pj, before I let you go tonight, is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners?

PJ Smith
00:51:09

Oh, well, we were just looking back on some stuff. This is actually going to be my 15th year of guiding, so that's kind of a special thing. So yeah, that's long time.

We've been fly fishing here in this area for over 30 plus years. So yeah, it's kind of a big year for us. We're looking forward to getting out on the water.

My wife is definitely going to be spending more time so we'll be able to do a lot more say like trout schools and casting instruction if need be. That's what she loves doing. So that's, it's definitely going to be a lot more, lot more offered for that part of it.

We are more than happy to take people that are really new to it. We have been doing this for so long and teaching. There's not too much that we can't help you get into fly fishing. So super fun time.

Marvin Cash
00:52:17

Yeah, very, very neat. And so if folks want to learn more about PJ's guide service or follow your adventures on the water, where should they go?

PJ Smith
00:52:24

So our webpage is pj guideservice.com and then my email is pj guidesmail.com you can also find us on the Orvis website under guides. It's under PJ's guide service. I'm also on social media. I believe it's PJ Smith. And then I might be under PJ's guide service too.

I don't always, that's always a weird one because I've got a couple of pages. But yeah, just look me up. I usually have my, yeah, Instagram, Facebook. That's where I'm at.

Marvin Cash
00:53:16

Yeah, got it. And I'll drop links to all that stuff in the show notes for you. And pj, I really appreciate you coming back on the podcast.

PJ Smith
00:53:22

Oh absolutely. I appreciate being able to do this. It's super fun. Just kind of spreading the word of fly fishing because it, you know, I love it enough.

I actually, you know, that's why I do it. I love helping people get on to fish or just learning about this great sport.

Marvin Cash
00:53:41

Yeah, come back anytime. Take care.

PJ Smith
00:53:43

Well, I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Marvin Cash
00:53:47

Well folks, we hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If the fly fishing show is coming to a town near you, head over to flyfishingshow.com to plan your visit.

And don't forget to check out trout routes.pro@maps.troutroutes.com Use ArtFly20 ArtFly20 all one word to get 20% off of your membership. Tight lines, everybody.