S7, Ep 2: Exploring the Amazon's Untamed Waters with Nomadic Water's Michael Williams
In this episode of The Articulate Fly, host Marvin Cash sits down with Michael Williams, the visionary behind Nomadic Waters, to explore the captivating world of Amazon fishing. Michael shares his deep-rooted passion for the Amazon's people, places and the thrilling pursuit of peacock bass. Listeners are treated to a rich tapestry of stories, from Michael's early fishing memories with his uncle to the transformative moment that sparked his love for fly fishing. The conversation delves into the challenges and triumphs of guiding, the allure of exotic destination travel and the unique experiences offered by Nomadic Waters.
Michael recounts the journey of building Nomadic Waters from the ground up, emphasizing the importance of community partnerships and sustainable practices. He reveals the intricacies of fishing in the Amazon, highlighting the aggressive nature of peacock bass and the unparalleled adventure of exploring untouched waters. The episode also touches on the humanitarian efforts intertwined with the fishing operation, showcasing the meaningful impact of responsible tourism.
Listeners are encouraged to embrace the adventure and consider a trip to the Amazon, with Michael offering insights into the ideal angler profile and the skills needed for a successful experience. The episode wraps up with a reminder of the fleeting nature of opportunities and the importance of seizing the moment to explore the wonders of the Amazon.
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Helpful Episode Chapters
0:00:00 Introduction
0:06:10 The Guide Bug
0:14:19 Building Nomadic Waters
0:17:54 The Amazon Experience
0:28:46 Understanding Peacock Bass
0:34:58 Fishing Strategies Revealed
0:40:58 Unique Fishing Environments
0:51:44 Distinct Angling Experiences
0:59:36 Timing Your Trip
1:01:36 What Sets Us Apart
00:00 - Introduction
06:10 - The Guide Bug
14:19 - Building Nomadic Waters
17:54 - The Amazon Experience
28:46 - Understanding Peacock Bass
34:58 - Fishing Strategies Revealed
40:58 - Unique Fishing Environments
51:44 - Distinct Angling Experiences
59:36 - Timing Your Trip
01:01:36 - What Sets Us Apart
Marvin Cash
Foreign hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly.
Marvin Cash
On this episode, I'm joined by Michael Williams, the driving force behind Nomadic Waters.
Marvin Cash
Michael shares his passion for the people, places and peacock bass of the Amazon and we take a deep dive into all things Nomadic Waters.
Marvin Cash
I think you're really going to enjoy this one, but before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items.
Marvin Cash
If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating review in the podcatcher of your choice.
Marvin Cash
It really helps us out and thanks to our friends at the Fly Fishing show for sponsoring the episode.
Marvin Cash
The 2025 season kicks off in Marlborough on January 17 and then heads to Edison, Atlanta, Bellevue, Denver, Pleasanton and Lancaster.
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Come out and visit with old friends and make a few new ones.
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It should be a great time for dates, ticket and class info and other event details.
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Head over to www.flyfishingshow.com and a shout out to our sponsor Trout Routes.
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Use code artfly20all1word art fly20 for 20% off of your Trout Routes Pro membership at maps.troutroutes.com now on to our interview.
Marvin Cash
Well Michael, welcome to the Articulate Fly.
Michael Williams
Thank you.
Michael Williams
This is a big deal.
Michael Williams
I'm very honored to be a part of this.
Marvin Cash
I'm excited to have you on and I was shocked when we did our pre interview call for you to tell me that you haven't done podcasts before.
Michael Williams
No, I've been waiting for you to invite me, so I'm glad you finally did.
Marvin Cash
You sound like Tim Flagler.
Marvin Cash
So you know we have a tradition on the Articulate Fly.
Marvin Cash
We like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.
Michael Williams
Ah, well, earliest fishing memory was definitely with my uncle when I was a little boy fishing for Crappie in South Carolina with just absolute junk for equipment.
Michael Williams
But it didn't matter because, you know, it was time with my uncle.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, that's super neat.
Marvin Cash
And so when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing?
Michael Williams
You know, I Was absolutely obsessed.
Michael Williams
I was living in Denver and was just obsessed with the sport.
Michael Williams
Just loved it.
Michael Williams
But there was no one in my world who did it.
Michael Williams
You know, I didn't have a father who my father didn't really enjoy doing much outside of.
Michael Williams
He was just forced to do work all the time, so he didn't have time to play.
Michael Williams
And so I really read every book I could find, watched every video I could find, and I just spent a lot of time on the water.
Michael Williams
And actually, I remember the very first fish I ever caught on a fly, and it was actually with a spinning rod, with a bubble.
Michael Williams
And believe it or not, it was a Trico dry fly in Cheeseman Canyon, of all things.
Michael Williams
And I don't even think I could duplicate that.
Michael Williams
Now, those fish are so hard to catch, but for some reason, there was one fish kind enough to eat my fly.
Michael Williams
And that.
Michael Williams
That fish changed everything for me.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, that's pretty neat.
Marvin Cash
I think literally, if they heard you, like, take the bubble out of the car, they would spook.
Michael Williams
Yeah, absolutely.
Michael Williams
It's a special place.
Michael Williams
Yep.
Marvin Cash
Yeah.
Marvin Cash
And so who are some of the folks that have mentored you on your fly fishing journey and what did you learn from.
Michael Williams
You know, it's interesting.
Michael Williams
I would have loved to have had a mentor.
Michael Williams
I really would have.
Michael Williams
There were definitely some up and coming celebrities in Denver, especially at that time.
Michael Williams
But, you know, when I decided to officially get into the business and into the industry, I should say before that, I really just wanted to spend as much time as I could on the water.
Michael Williams
And I realized that there weren't a lot of mentors out there that I had circled circle with.
Michael Williams
So, you know, my.
Michael Williams
My best friend in the world is my sister Jean, and we're five years apart.
Michael Williams
And I discovered that it's something that she wanted to learn as well.
Michael Williams
And so instead of having a mentor, really, Gene and I just kind of doubled up and worked together and learned together how to fly fish from the ground up.
Michael Williams
It was definitely the slow trail of learning the sport.
Michael Williams
A lot of trial and error, but it was just.
Michael Williams
It was a great time to have that.
Michael Williams
That time and experience with her.
Michael Williams
And, you know, we did something called.
Michael Williams
Called one rotting.
Michael Williams
You know, we only had enough money to buy one nice rod and real outfit.
Michael Williams
And so we would go into Cheeseman Canyon and we would just take one rod and basically one would fish and the other would stand there and observe and watch.
Michael Williams
And if that person would hook a fish, usually miss it, then we'd swap out and then the next person grabbed the rod.
Michael Williams
And it's pretty remarkable how much you can learn when you're not fishing.
Michael Williams
It sounds kind of strange, but when you are solely focused on observing, you're not actually physically holding the rod, you're not physically waiting to set that hook, but you're instead, you know, your peripheral vision's a little bit bigger.
Michael Williams
You can see a little bit more than the person that's actually fishing who's hyper focused on what that fish is doing.
Michael Williams
But you can actually see other opportunities.
Michael Williams
You can see what the fly is actually doing, see maybe with where that current should be.
Michael Williams
And that was just for us, that was just a master class, long answer, but that was just, that was just a really special time for us.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, and it's an interesting thing too, right, because we kind of look at kind of YouTube and all the stuff there is today and there's a place for that.
Marvin Cash
But I keep having these recurring conversations with people that have been in the sport longer about actually there being scarcity and having to have focus and not being able to just look up everything on your phone.
Marvin Cash
And you actually ended up with a kind of a more well rounded and deeper foundation in terms of fishing and fishing skills.
Michael Williams
I would totally agree.
Michael Williams
Yeah, absolutely.
Marvin Cash
Yeah.
Marvin Cash
It's interesting because, I mean, kind of one of my sort of knocks kind of on the industry is I think we've in an effort to sell more stuff, we've kind of dumbed things down and we actually make it harder for people to become accomplished anglers.
Michael Williams
Yes.
Michael Williams
There's certainly something to be said about having too much information out there.
Michael Williams
And I think it's all well intended.
Michael Williams
You know, as I sit down to talk to other people who are, who are casting instructors or who teach fly fishing classes.
Michael Williams
You know, I taught at the Orvis schools for a long time and as I sit down and talk to those instructors, I find a lot of those instructors learned the hard way as well.
Michael Williams
I think we took the slow route to learn the sport.
Michael Williams
And in a lot of ways I think that motivated all of us to really be better teachers and help these people kind of shorten that learning curve with, with what we've learned over the years.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, it's interesting because one of my observations has been that we've gotten to a place where everyone wants like a 90 second answer in an Instagram reel.
Marvin Cash
And I think if we focus more on helping anglers understand why they're doing what they do, then they can become a lot better at solving problems for themselves when they don't have all the experts around.
Marvin Cash
And they can't get a signal on their telephone.
Michael Williams
Absolutely.
Michael Williams
That.
Michael Williams
Very well said.
Michael Williams
That's a very good point.
Michael Williams
Yeah.
Marvin Cash
And so, so you were eating up with it.
Marvin Cash
You had one rod, you shared it with your sister.
Marvin Cash
So when did you get the guide bug?
Michael Williams
Well, you know, we, we love to fish so much.
Michael Williams
It was basically all I could think about.
Michael Williams
Even while I was at work.
Michael Williams
I was in a corporate role.
Michael Williams
And it actually got to the point where just as we started to get our feet wet, get some success and, you know, that confidence kicked in.
Michael Williams
Then I could not wait to basically share it with everybody that I knew.
Michael Williams
And I started taking people out and, you know, I just learned from our mistakes and they, you know, we really celebrated their successes and it was just, there was just something inside me that just lit up like, wow, this, this is different.
Michael Williams
This is really fulfilling.
Michael Williams
Um, and I can say now, you know, many, many years ago, you know, that started many years ago.
Michael Williams
I can still say now that nothing I've done in my life has been more fulfilling than guiding someone on the water.
Michael Williams
It's just an incredible experience.
Michael Williams
So I actually ended up leaving my corporate job and moved to working as a shop hound at a fly shop in, in Denver.
Michael Williams
And, you know, working at the fly shop, eventually there were opportunities to get my foot in the door with a guide, as a guide.
Michael Williams
And once that happened, once I started taking people out on the river, that's again, that's all I, that's all I wanted to do.
Michael Williams
And they were kind enough to just give me opportunities to take customers out.
Michael Williams
And then working in the shop, it gave me a chance to just talk people into a guide trip and starting building that relationship.
Michael Williams
And it was just, it was a very, very good, good time in our lives.
Marvin Cash
Yeah.
Marvin Cash
It's interesting too because I think kind of that Denver metro area is such a super unique fly fishing location in terms of access to the resource.
Marvin Cash
Although now you have traffic out there that's like LA traffic, but you know, tons, tons of access to the resource.
Marvin Cash
I mean, probably, you know, in terms of like, probably the most fly shops spread out over that much of an area anywhere in the country.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, I mean, just a phenomenally, you know, interesting culture and a lot of different ways to fish and a lot.
Michael Williams
Of variety in water.
Michael Williams
You know, you've got the, you've got the tail waters, you've got the freestones, you've got small walking wade spots and you have, you know, bigger rivers, you can float.
Michael Williams
Just so much variety.
Marvin Cash
Yeah.
Marvin Cash
And so do, you know, do you have any Mentors that kind of mentored you on your guide journey.
Marvin Cash
Anything that kind of, you know, someone that jumps out at you that was particularly kind of fundamental in your development.
Michael Williams
Again, most of it was just learned on the fly and through experience and through learning from mistakes and celebrating the successes.
Michael Williams
One thing that was interesting was that the shop I was working with actually partnered up with another shop in Evergreen.
Michael Williams
With the Blue Quill Famous shop in Colorado, we actually shared guide services.
Michael Williams
We had one guide manager that managed both groups of guides from each shop.
Michael Williams
And you know that that was a little awkward for some of the guides because it's hard not to look at those guides as, as competition.
Michael Williams
But I quickly saw the talent of the guide pool at the Blue Quill and instead of looking at this as competition, who really, really became friends and embraced as comrades.
Michael Williams
And you know, two that come to mind, those back in those days was Pat Dorsey, the legendary Pat Dorsey now and, and Matt captain Matt Miles.
Michael Williams
You know, it was a real honor to share trips working with those guys.
Michael Williams
And I'll tell you, just stopping what you're doing and watching those guys at work is, is just a remarkable thing.
Michael Williams
Those talk about someone who's meant to be out on the water with customers.
Michael Williams
They are guiding machines.
Michael Williams
And honestly I learned so much just from observing them and watching them.
Michael Williams
Those are two big names to come to mind.
Michael Williams
And thankfully we are still very close, still good friends now and they've both come to Brazil many times with their customers.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, it's funny, I think I told you when we were doing our pre interview call that I actually, I grew up in a relatively small town in Virginia and I actually met Pat through Matt at like an itty bitty library at a TU meeting.
Michael Williams
That's right, I remember that.
Marvin Cash
Yeah.
Marvin Cash
But you know, it's an interesting thing too because I would flip that around like you know, when you, when you're a client and you fish with guides that have that network, it's really helpful, you know, and you see that on like a multi day experience where you're able to kind of, you hear your guys talking to his guys and you're kind of figuring out where to fish and what's working, you know, which at least from my perspective, I always say, you know, you can't control the catching, but you can control, you know, having everything that can be humanly possible done for you to put you on fish.
Michael Williams
That's right, absolutely.
Marvin Cash
So, so you're having the time of your life in Colorado.
Marvin Cash
Right.
Marvin Cash
You know, and you don't think it can get any better.
Marvin Cash
And then all of a sudden you're like, I want to do exotic destination travel.
Marvin Cash
How did that come about?
Michael Williams
That's right.
Michael Williams
Well, you know, I've never been a person of means and there were a lot of places that I wanted to go, but I certainly could not personally afford to go to those.
Michael Williams
And.
Michael Williams
But the one thing that I did have was a client list and just good, really good friends that were customers that, you know, it's just like, hey, I know you guys want to travel, I want to travel.
Michael Williams
Where do you want to go?
Michael Williams
And let's pick a destination and let me plan the whole thing.
Michael Williams
This is before hosted trip ever really horsed travel was a thing.
Michael Williams
It just seemed like an easy option for me because, you know, being in Colorado is not a year round, sustainable year round business.
Michael Williams
So being able to sneak away and do something down in Baja or go up to Alaska or something like that, or trip to Montana was, was something that was very achievable.
Michael Williams
And it was wonderful because it certainly can.
Michael Williams
It's a great opportunity to build on that relationship with your customers and it really expands your knowledge.
Michael Williams
I've always felt like travel has been incredibly important to me and seeing new, new people, seeing new lands, new cultures, personally, honestly, that's one thing I really live for.
Michael Williams
I, I would much rather live in a very small house and drive an old car if I can afford to go and travel.
Michael Williams
And so the destination fishing is certainly something that fit in really well with, with what was important to me.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, it's funny as you were telling me that it makes me think, I think, you know, Courier kind of got into the destination, traveled the same way because he didn't want to stay in Jackson and tune skis all winter.
Michael Williams
Yep, precisely.
Michael Williams
That's right.
Marvin Cash
And so, you know, obviously there's a huge quantum leap to, you know, starting nomadic waters.
Marvin Cash
And I know when you started, I mean, that was the house ship option, right?
Michael Williams
Yes.
Marvin Cash
And so that's not just like, hey, let's go down here.
Marvin Cash
And it's not like going to, you know, an estancia and Argentina and everything's kind of covered.
Marvin Cash
So tell me a little bit about like the idea for forming nomadic waters and kind of a little bit about kind of building out the business.
Michael Williams
Sure.
Michael Williams
Well, I'll step back a little bit.
Michael Williams
You know, as much as I loved guiding, it really wasn't an opportunity for me to make much of a living financially.
Michael Williams
And so I moved up into more of the corporate part of the industry and worked at Patagonia and Had a wonderful time working with Patagonia Corporate.
Michael Williams
And then I was recruited by another company and worked with them for a couple of years.
Michael Williams
And that just turned out to be an extremely difficult, difficult job.
Michael Williams
And it just was not the right fit.
Michael Williams
And in fact, the separation was so difficult, frankly, I actually stopped fishing altogether.
Michael Williams
I was living in Montana, I mean, living right on the Clarks Fork, and could care less about fishing.
Michael Williams
It was a really, really tough time in my life.
Michael Williams
So I stopped fishing for a few years.
Michael Williams
It was always still in the back of my mind.
Michael Williams
It was such a big, big part of who I was.
Michael Williams
But I just kind of had to process.
Michael Williams
Process things, and I really wanted to do something on my own.
Michael Williams
I really wanted to call my own shots and really make sure that people were taken well care of and just being fully responsible for.
Michael Williams
For what was going on.
Michael Williams
And so as I was trying to find the next opportunity, I actually started to do some humanitarian work down in Brazil.
Michael Williams
My.
Michael Williams
My church was doing some trips down there, taking doctors and eye surgeons down there.
Michael Williams
And what we would do is we would go on a mothership during high water, and during high water, we could get those motherships way up back into the far furthest reaches of the jungles and meet with communities and work with communities.
Michael Williams
And, you know, there's a lot of issues up there that.
Michael Williams
That.
Michael Williams
That we could help with.
Michael Williams
And that was an important time for me because it just.
Michael Williams
It really gave me some fulfillment that I was looking for, finding a way that I could give back.
Michael Williams
But it didn't take long at all.
Michael Williams
It took minutes for me to start looking at that water and looking at the opportunities and saying, wow, I'm in the Amazon jungle.
Michael Williams
This water is absolutely full of life.
Michael Williams
And I really got to know the Brazilian crew, the people that were really making those trips happen.
Michael Williams
And I started to think about it.
Michael Williams
It's like, here's a crew who's hosted American doctors, some of them, for.
Michael Williams
For almost 20 years.
Michael Williams
They've been to the.
Michael Williams
Some of the most remote regions of the areas.
Michael Williams
They've got really strong relationships with these communities.
Michael Williams
And frankly, they've seen a lot.
Michael Williams
All the mistakes that tourists make.
Michael Williams
You know, for some reason, tourists, they kind of check their brains at the door when they go on a big trip, and they're not really observant, and they make a lot of mistakes.
Michael Williams
And I watched this crew handle those different scenarios and just saw them and.
Michael Williams
And really, the bottom line was I suddenly had a crew of friends that I could trust.
Michael Williams
The number one single most challenging thing to Find to starting an operation in a place like Brazil is finding a crew like that that are like minded, that I could trust.
Michael Williams
And so the more I, I talked to them and I realized that, well, wait a minute, this is, this is all work for you guys during the high water season.
Michael Williams
What are you doing during the low water season?
Michael Williams
Well, they're unemployed during the low water season.
Michael Williams
You know, there aren't a lot of jobs in Brazil and so they were literally working three, four months a year and they're just trying to pick up odd jobs after that.
Michael Williams
Well, low water season is fishing season in Brazil.
Michael Williams
And it didn't take long at all for me to connect those dots.
Michael Williams
And so I pulled a handful of that crew and just made a presentation to them.
Michael Williams
I'm like, look, this is my background, this is what I'm good at.
Michael Williams
Would you be interested in letting me teach you how to work with fly fishing customers and you can teach me how to run operations in Brazil?
Michael Williams
And they loved it.
Michael Williams
It is a great solution for them because essentially I'm doubling their income and they're learning a new skill.
Michael Williams
It gives them opportunities to work with foreigners, which gives them more opportunities to find work in Brazil.
Michael Williams
It was just a win, win, win as far as I could see.
Michael Williams
And then as I looked at that water, oh man, the opportunities for that water, it's just the kind of place where when you go, it's really hard to come back.
Michael Williams
It's just an incredible place.
Michael Williams
And so we had in many ways, many of the essentials already figured out because this crew's already done so many mothership trips.
Michael Williams
And we knew that that was the best way for us to go.
Michael Williams
At the time, um, we met with communities and you know, one of our challenges was finding a community that, that accepted our help, that needed our help, but also had a quality fishery.
Michael Williams
They were playing communities that wanted us to come and help them, but we needed to work in a place where we could also bring our customers.
Michael Williams
And that, that took a couple years, actually took about three years of exploring and we finally found the water that we wanted to work in.
Michael Williams
We found the communities we wanted to support.
Michael Williams
And in 2014 we had our first customers.
Marvin Cash
Very, very neat.
Marvin Cash
So you really kind of started kind of building out the fishing operation.
Marvin Cash
What about 2010?
Marvin Cash
Something like that?
Michael Williams
Yes.
Michael Williams
Yeah, exactly.
Marvin Cash
Interesting.
Marvin Cash
And so of course I always love to talk to like startups and all kinds of stuff.
Marvin Cash
I always like to hear, you know, the biggest surprise or challenge that had you pulling your hair out in the early days in nomadic waters.
Michael Williams
Yeah, Well, I think, I think it was a bit naive.
Michael Williams
I think I made the assumption that every fly fisherman wanted to go to the Amazon and fish in the jungle, because why wouldn't they?
Michael Williams
You know, I've seen it, so why wouldn't they all want to share the same experience?
Michael Williams
As I started to talk to prospects, I quickly realized that it's about 10% of the people that I talk to are remotely interested in coming to the Amazon.
Michael Williams
Now.
Michael Williams
This is back in 20, you know, 10, 11 and 12.
Michael Williams
It was definitely way off the radar at that time.
Michael Williams
It is far more on the radar now.
Michael Williams
But you know, at that time that was something that really surprised me.
Michael Williams
That was a big challenge.
Michael Williams
You know, if you don't have customers, you can't, you're dead in the water.
Michael Williams
And so that, that was something where I really had to say, okay, I just have to accept the fact that every single person that I speak to about coming to the Amazon has actually never even considered or thought about coming to the Amazon.
Michael Williams
And that just means it's a lot more work on the sales side.
Michael Williams
But the good thing is, is that the people that came were the right people.
Michael Williams
You know, I, the worst thing to do is to have someone come down and it's just not their kind of experience.
Michael Williams
And so the people who came down came back and brought their friends and then those friends brought their friends.
Michael Williams
And you know, we, we really have a minimal marketing budget.
Michael Williams
But you know, this is our 2024 marks our 10th anniversary of actually hosting customers in the Amazon.
Michael Williams
And you know, we still have people coming from that very first year, which is, it still just blows me away.
Michael Williams
We are so grateful for them.
Michael Williams
But you know, those people have all brought their friends and that's, that's really how we've grown.
Michael Williams
But man, it was a slow start.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, it's interesting.
Marvin Cash
I mean, you know, I think about it and you kind of think about kind of, let's just kind of say the predator fly game, you know, 15 years ago, I mean, and there were people doing it, but it's not like it is today.
Marvin Cash
And you know, particularly for trouty anglers, I mean, that streamer skill set is kind of usually not like the core of what they do.
Marvin Cash
Right?
Michael Williams
Absolutely.
Michael Williams
Yes.
Michael Williams
Yeah.
Michael Williams
You know, we would, we would, I would try to think about what guides are, are having their customers throw in streamers.
Michael Williams
You know, maybe I could start with them and see if, you know, maybe a warm water fish would be something they'd be interested in.
Michael Williams
And then what would you think about an exotic, just A big trip down the jungles.
Michael Williams
And, you know, it was, at that time, it was just like pulling teeth, but certainly, certainly now.
Michael Williams
And I think.
Michael Williams
I don't know if.
Michael Williams
If the higher populations of anglers on the rivers, you know, our rivers are changing all around the world.
Michael Williams
I think people are maybe looking for more solitude and, and if we can share with them how really comfortable they can be in our situation and we can guarantee solitude, you know, you won't be.
Michael Williams
There will be another angler for miles.
Michael Williams
I think those types of things start to be a little more attractive and interesting to someone who may not have originally thought of coming to the jungles, but it's been interesting to see how just the crowds on our rivers in the States have really certainly had a positive impact on the destination travel game.
Marvin Cash
Interesting.
Marvin Cash
And I know you don't like bucket list describing traveling to the Amazon, but kind of building out kind of on the previous answer, who is.
Marvin Cash
Because people are like, gee, is this a good trip for me?
Marvin Cash
Kind of.
Marvin Cash
What's the profile, the angler who can come to the Amazon and be happy and successful?
Michael Williams
Oh, that's such a good question.
Michael Williams
That's an important question.
Michael Williams
You know, people who are real adventurers, I mean, that just seems like an obvious answer.
Michael Williams
But people who are willing to just go out and explore with us, they're really excited about, hey, see that lagoon?
Michael Williams
There's a lagoon on the other side of that little creek.
Michael Williams
And if we cut our way into there, there's a really high chance that there's big, big fish in there.
Michael Williams
But there's also a chance that there's nothing in there.
Michael Williams
Go explore.
Michael Williams
And some people are energized by that because that's part of a story that's a big adventure, and it's something at the end of the day that they can come back and share with their buddies.
Michael Williams
Like, man, you're not going to believe what we did.
Michael Williams
We got in there and we saw monkeys and we saw macaws and there were three big fish in there.
Michael Williams
And.
Michael Williams
Or we have people like, you know, we got in there, it was a bus.
Michael Williams
We turned around and found another spot.
Michael Williams
But it was fine because we know the guides are working their tails off.
Michael Williams
That's the kind of customer who really enjoys our.
Michael Williams
Our type of trip.
Michael Williams
If there's a customer who may.
Michael Williams
They may only fish once a year.
Michael Williams
And when they do that, they fish with a guide.
Michael Williams
You know, they may fish for 20 years, but what that means is that they fish for 20 times.
Michael Williams
That kind of customer often wants more Of a sure thing of, you know, I know that if I stand by this rock and I nymph through this current that I will eventually hook up on fish.
Michael Williams
And then I've got my fish.
Michael Williams
And this is a great experience for me and for bang for Buck, this is, this is the kind of experience that I want.
Michael Williams
That kind of guy, that kind of customer is probably not going to really connect with the kind of operation and kind of experience that we have.
Michael Williams
We are really explorers and, and I love that.
Michael Williams
That's what fires me up, that's what keeps me going back there.
Michael Williams
Because every day is different down there.
Michael Williams
You know, the fishing.
Michael Williams
The fishing is remarkable.
Michael Williams
Honestly, I've never experienced, I've traveled the world.
Michael Williams
I've never experienced fishing like Amazon fishing, with numbers, with sheer power, with sheer size.
Michael Williams
But these fish don't come easy.
Michael Williams
And so you need to have someone with the mindset of understanding that, you know, just because I'm getting the fly out there doesn't mean I'm automatically going to catch fish.
Michael Williams
We need to work closely with the guy.
Michael Williams
We need to work on the presentation, work on our casting a little bit, make sure that we are ready, that we understand a strip set, hook set, we understand how to fight these fish because, you know, it's, it's hard to imagine until you actually hook into a peacock bass.
Michael Williams
Just the sheer power of these fish.
Michael Williams
Like a 12 pound peacock bass will shatter 40 pound leader in, in one run on his first run.
Michael Williams
And people don't believe that until they suddenly are like, what just happened there?
Michael Williams
You know, they never even saw the fish that absolutely shattered their leader.
Michael Williams
And, and so for us, I get fired up about that because, well, that's great.
Michael Williams
That means the next time it won't happen and you're going to be that much of a better angler.
Michael Williams
I don't know if that makes sense.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, it does.
Marvin Cash
And I guess, you know, so we've got kind of, let's just say the attitude profile and then we have to overlay that on the skill profile.
Marvin Cash
Right.
Marvin Cash
I know that's a tremendous challenge, you know, where you have to get people, you know, and you've got the guide experience, you know, what they tell you and what's the truth, Right?
Michael Williams
Yes.
Marvin Cash
And then what they need.
Marvin Cash
And so, you know, what do people need to think about being able to do or being willing to do before they decide to come down to the Amazon and chase peacock bass and some of those other toothy critters you've got down there?
Michael Williams
Sure.
Michael Williams
As far as skill sets With.
Marvin Cash
With.
Marvin Cash
Exactly, exactly.
Michael Williams
I'm.
Michael Williams
I'm so glad you asked that question.
Michael Williams
We, I tell people all the time we will take all levels of experience.
Michael Williams
Absolutely.
Michael Williams
Even beginners.
Michael Williams
We've had beginners.
Michael Williams
We've had a couple of never evers.
Michael Williams
And.
Michael Williams
Which is amazing.
Michael Williams
Can you imagine your first fly fishing trip being the Amazon?
Michael Williams
And you know, they're usually a friend that, that's come along with someone or a husband or a wife or something like that.
Michael Williams
And you know, one thing that's unique about us is on, you know, I try to host every trip.
Michael Williams
We're now running multiple camps, so I can't be at every location.
Michael Williams
But you know, when I'm down there the whole season and so that I literally fish every day with customers.
Michael Williams
And we'll talk to guests at night, I'll talk to the guides at night.
Michael Williams
We have guide meetings every night, just talking about what can we do better, who needs a little extra help, who needs a little dose of confidence or who just wants to go out and, and explore.
Michael Williams
And I'll take that person out.
Michael Williams
And I love teaching casting.
Michael Williams
I, I just love the whole process of that, of watching that light turn on as the customer suddenly is like, oh, did you see that?
Michael Williams
I totally felt that rod just kick the fly out.
Michael Williams
And that was amazing.
Michael Williams
I just love those moments.
Michael Williams
And so any, any and all levels are absolutely welcome.
Michael Williams
Honestly, the, the hardest customers we have are the customers who arrive that are already the experts.
Michael Williams
We have guests who have never fly fish or peacock bass in their lives, but they're the experts.
Michael Williams
And so they don't.
Michael Williams
They're not interesting in being taught or given direction or given ideas.
Michael Williams
They're just there to catch fish.
Michael Williams
And those are the hardest ones.
Michael Williams
You know, I went tarpon fishing once, and I'm not a tarpon expert.
Michael Williams
They kicked my butt.
Michael Williams
And I just can't imagine just arriving and saying, hey, hey, you.
Michael Williams
I don't need to hear anything from the guide.
Michael Williams
I've got this.
Michael Williams
You know, this is, it's just.
Michael Williams
Is completely foreign to me.
Michael Williams
So I would say if you're thinking about coming down, you know, think about your skills.
Michael Williams
And I would just say, be ready to ask for help and say, hey, my double haul.
Michael Williams
Could you clean.
Michael Williams
Help me clean this up and we'll fix it and we'll have a great time.
Michael Williams
And I just, we're really drawn, I think, to people who are really want to get better with their craft, who really want to see the success.
Michael Williams
And, you know, the success kicks in.
Michael Williams
There are so many fish in our rivers there's so many opportunities, and once it clicks, once a customer completely understands what that cast needs to be, what that presentation needs to be, and then way, way, way, way, way down the line in priority, what the fly is, if they get that presentation right, those fish will respond.
Michael Williams
And then.
Michael Williams
And then people are just having the time of their lives because they did it.
Michael Williams
It's a huge achievement.
Michael Williams
And then the numbers start kicking in.
Michael Williams
You know, we.
Michael Williams
When I start telling people the numbers, people just don't believe it, but you come down and you'll see it.
Michael Williams
Now, this.
Michael Williams
This last year, we had record low water levels, and so our numbers weren't.
Michael Williams
Weren't what they typically are.
Michael Williams
But, you know, on a.
Michael Williams
On a typical week, for example, in the Rio Negro, which is our mothership trip, we'll have usually around 10 guests on that trip, and we'll land about 1200 fish each week.
Michael Williams
On a typical week, I think our record is almost 1700.
Michael Williams
I think it was 1680.
Michael Williams
And, you know, with 10 anglers, that's a lot of fish.
Michael Williams
And so it's.
Michael Williams
It's just an incredible experience that if you're a real fly angler, if you're a fly angler and you're open for adventure as you just.
Michael Williams
You don't want to miss this opportunity.
Marvin Cash
Yeah.
Marvin Cash
And then I guess kind of the last piece of the puzzle, I would say, is, you know, streamer fishing.
Marvin Cash
Sometimes it's not for the faint of heart kind of on the physical side.
Marvin Cash
You know, what do people need to be able to kind of tolerate from kind of a climate, you know, because it's different for, you know, being in the bow of a boat in Montana and watching a bobber for a week.
Marvin Cash
Right.
Marvin Cash
That's a total true.
Marvin Cash
That's.
Marvin Cash
That's different.
Marvin Cash
Like I always say, you know, I'm lucky enough to.
Marvin Cash
To usually fish with Blaine every muskie season, and that's the most physically demanding fishing I.
Marvin Cash
During the year.
Marvin Cash
So kind of, what.
Marvin Cash
What is it like chasing peacock bass down the Amazon?
Michael Williams
Now, see, that's a perfect example, because just imagine doing that on the equator in the middle of summer.
Michael Williams
It's the same thing.
Michael Williams
Imagine now we don't cast as many big flies.
Michael Williams
People make the assumption that peacock bass only eat big flies.
Michael Williams
That is not true at all.
Michael Williams
And so I'll.
Michael Williams
I'll.
Michael Williams
I'll trim it down to smaller flies, but it's.
Michael Williams
It's very similar to muskie fishing.
Michael Williams
And as you're.
Michael Williams
As you're floating down with Blaine and you're casting the structure or you're casting to points or you, you're casting to, to humps, anticipating where that ambush strike will happen.
Michael Williams
You know, that's, that's how we spend our days.
Michael Williams
And a lot of this.
Michael Williams
Of our guests come down are industry guys.
Michael Williams
They're professional, either guides or in the industry, one way or another.
Michael Williams
And they come down and man their first day.
Michael Williams
When they roll in at the end of the day, they are beat up because they're casting.
Michael Williams
You know, everything looks fishy.
Michael Williams
Every inch of that place looks fishy.
Michael Williams
And they try to cover every single inch because they want to maximize the time that they're there.
Michael Williams
And I totally get it.
Michael Williams
Then we have a conversation.
Michael Williams
I usually let them beat themselves up on the first day, and then this.
Michael Williams
Then that night we talk about, let's talk about picking our shots and let's talk about what do we do in our cast to make sure it's as efficient as possible.
Michael Williams
What are we doing to make sure the rod is doing the work and not your shoulders?
Michael Williams
Because chucking these flies all day long can really beat you up.
Michael Williams
And then by day two, they start to really pick their battles.
Michael Williams
They, they, they, they'll go in and they'll wait to take their shots, and, and often they catch more fish.
Michael Williams
Because if you cast too much standing in the heat like that, you know, you're.
Michael Williams
There's no way that you can keep your skills up high like that.
Michael Williams
You know, I, I tell people it's much like, you know, professional baseball pitcher.
Michael Williams
You know, they've only got so many great pitches per game.
Michael Williams
So that's how you look at fly casting in the Amazon.
Michael Williams
You could cast all day, but if you get tired, you're going to start getting sloppy, you're going to start missing strikes, you're going to.
Michael Williams
Your fly is going to be stuck in the trees, your fly is going to be stuck in your shoulder.
Michael Williams
And so if people are willing to kind of take a step back and really take care of themselves and make sure they're.
Michael Williams
They're picking their shots and spending the day being relaxed and not overworking themselves.
Michael Williams
You know, it's, it's a hot environment.
Michael Williams
I live in Georgia, so I would say down there is the very much equivalent of Atlanta in August.
Michael Williams
You know, it's that hot.
Michael Williams
People always ask me how hot it is, and I'm like, I don't measure it.
Michael Williams
I don't want to know.
Michael Williams
But, you know, we, we do things to make sure everybody's well hydrated.
Michael Williams
And one thing we do that's unique is we have Mandatory siestas in the middle of the day.
Michael Williams
And at first, guys are very resistant to that concept because they're there to fish.
Michael Williams
I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna hang out and rest.
Michael Williams
Well, I tell them, and it's true.
Michael Williams
The guides need it too.
Michael Williams
You know, this is the sixth week this guy's been out on the water.
Michael Williams
He needs, he needs an afternoon siesta.
Michael Williams
So we have a nice lunch and air conditioning, and then guests go back to their cabins and they can rest for a couple of hours.
Michael Williams
And then we get back out on the water for just the last couple of hours of light.
Michael Williams
And I'll tell you what's really interesting is, well, number one, guests are much happier and healthier.
Michael Williams
They're well rested.
Michael Williams
They cooled off at the hottest time of the day.
Michael Williams
But you know what, our fish count actually goes up.
Michael Williams
Since we started implementing this, we're literally taking three hours off of the fishing day, but our fish count has gone up.
Michael Williams
So that just tells you.
Michael Williams
With people that go out and do all dares, they're just, they're just tired and they're just sloppy.
Michael Williams
So I, you know, I feel like we've really implemented some good systems to make sure that people are comfortable and rested out of the heat, but they still have plenty of opportunities to, to just catch lifetime fish.
Marvin Cash
Yeah.
Marvin Cash
I think maybe we need to bring this.
Marvin Cash
Yes.
Marvin Cash
To top water fishing for smallmouth in Virginia in August.
Michael Williams
It makes so much sense.
Marvin Cash
Yeah.
Marvin Cash
I try to explain to people, I said, just so we're clear, you're not in the shade and the fish are.
Marvin Cash
And that's like that all day long.
Marvin Cash
Right.
Marvin Cash
And it's in the 90s and it's humid, you know, or, or, you know, like you're talking about.
Marvin Cash
It's like I was talking to Austin Conrad at Virginia Trophy Guides about he had a guy out and he talked about him losing concentration.
Marvin Cash
I said, I bet it was about 2:30 or 3:00 in the afternoon, right as the bite window opened up where the water got as warm it was going to get all day long.
Marvin Cash
He's like, exactly, exactly.
Michael Williams
Yes, I can see it.
Michael Williams
Absolutely.
Michael Williams
And you know, it's, it's, it's fun because by day three, I start to hear.
Michael Williams
I always like to position myself where I can listen to customers talking to each other, but they don't know that I'm eavesdropping.
Michael Williams
And, you know, just to make sure if there's any problems, I'm, I'm there ready to hear and ready to, to help.
Michael Williams
But by day three, three, I usually start hearing guys saying, man, I can't wait.
Michael Williams
I can't wait for that siesta today.
Michael Williams
It's going to be awesome.
Marvin Cash
Yeah.
Marvin Cash
And so, you know, for.
Marvin Cash
And we were talking to.
Marvin Cash
Before we started recording, you know, both of us are kind of spoiled because we're around this a lot.
Marvin Cash
And so we don't think is, you know, about people that maybe do one or two or three of these trips in their entire lifetime.
Marvin Cash
And so, you know, if you're someone sitting down and saying, I'm going to take, you know, one or two of these great destination trips in my kind of fly fishing life and you know, I can go to the Caribbean, I can go out west, I can go to Alaska, I can go.
Marvin Cash
I guess now you can go back to Kimchatka.
Marvin Cash
I think I saw a post from Will Blair saying that you wouldn't get rendered if you went back there to fish.
Marvin Cash
Now I saw that yesterday.
Michael Williams
I'm psyched.
Michael Williams
I hope you can get that business back on the ground.
Michael Williams
That's great.
Marvin Cash
Yeah.
Marvin Cash
And so what is it about the Amazon that's different?
Marvin Cash
That kind of, let's just say the destination travel consumer should think about that's kind of the differentiator or the tiebreaker.
Michael Williams
You're absolutely right.
Michael Williams
There are so many options, I think for me.
Michael Williams
And it's, it's a.
Michael Williams
Well, it's a point I haven't really brought up yet.
Michael Williams
But for me, the big part of our trip, the big part of our adventure, a lot of it has to do with the fishing.
Michael Williams
And that's what's going to bring people down.
Michael Williams
But this, there's a much bigger experience that we, that my customers really have.
Michael Williams
And there's nothing like being in a mothership running up the Rio Negro River.
Michael Williams
If you haven't seen it or experienced it, it's almost impossible to explain it.
Michael Williams
Well, I'll put it this way.
Michael Williams
There's a.
Michael Williams
There's a place that we run on the Rio Negro River.
Michael Williams
It's the fifth largest river in the world by volume.
Michael Williams
And it's a 13 miles wide where we run the mothership wide.
Michael Williams
Just imagine that.
Michael Williams
Imagine braids and rivers and creeks and lakes and lagoons all side by side by side by side for 13 miles.
Michael Williams
You know, that's, that's what that stretch of the Rio Negro looks like.
Michael Williams
And you're not going to see that or experience that anywhere else on the planet.
Michael Williams
And then our trophy fishery, the Rio Delua, you have to fly in on a float plane because the water's so small and we had to, we stand on these floating air conditioned cabins that are really comfortable and you're hunting 20 pound peacock bass in really small water.
Michael Williams
That's an incredible experience that you're really not going to experience anywhere else.
Michael Williams
But I would say, you know, if I'm the kind of.
Michael Williams
If I've got one trip that I'm going to do next year and I have a lot of different options if I've done saltwater, you know, most people start with trout.
Michael Williams
I'll just make the big assumption.
Michael Williams
You know, you start with trout with the fly and then you've done some salt water.
Michael Williams
If you really enjoy sight fishing, if you really enjoy fighting, extremely power, powerful fish.
Michael Williams
But you want to see that and experience that in a completely different environment.
Michael Williams
Basically you can take the fundamentals that you already have and have a completely new experience.
Michael Williams
I think there's something really attractive about that if you have never been out of the country.
Michael Williams
I had four customers this last season that have never been out of the country.
Michael Williams
Two of them were retired and they actually chose our trip to be their first out of the country trip.
Michael Williams
They were, it was bold.
Michael Williams
I was very, very proud of them.
Michael Williams
And they were all trout anglers.
Michael Williams
Some of them have done a little bit of bass, but not much.
Michael Williams
And that angler is just such an amazing big adventure.
Michael Williams
They just ate it up.
Michael Williams
Everywhere they look there was something that they have never seen or experienced before.
Michael Williams
And all I can speak to is just the uniqueness of this.
Michael Williams
And it's something very few people have really done.
Michael Williams
So many people have done Bahamas and Belize and those are fantastic, great, great places.
Michael Williams
But so few people have really experienced the jungle and seen, seen what lives in the jungle.
Michael Williams
You look up and see, you know, 30 macaws flying over your head.
Michael Williams
I, for me, I can't imagine a life without experiencing the Amazon.
Michael Williams
When I close my eyes at night, when I go to bed, I, I'm in the Amazon.
Michael Williams
That's just, that's what my mind gives me a picture of.
Michael Williams
And that's, that's definitely what our customers see as well.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, very neat.
Marvin Cash
And you know, we haven't even talked about the peacock bass at all.
Marvin Cash
Yeah.
Marvin Cash
Oh yeah.
Michael Williams
Oh yeah, that's right.
Marvin Cash
Yeah.
Marvin Cash
And so, you know, obviously that's what people think of when they think about making the trip down to South America to fish on the Amazon.
Marvin Cash
You know, tell us a little bit more about how, you know, anglers, you know, target peacock bass on the fly and kind of the unique attributes of your peacock bass.
Marvin Cash
Fishery, sure.
Michael Williams
There are a lot of favorite things for me and for my customers when it comes to peacock bass.
Michael Williams
One of them is, you know, we fish from boats.
Michael Williams
We fish from either bass trackers on the bigger rivers, or we fish in smaller john boats that have casting platforms on the smaller rivers.
Michael Williams
One thing that I really enjoy about our strategies is it is very much a partner to style of fishing.
Michael Williams
It's not one person gets up and fishes, and then when he misses his shot, they switch around, which would be, you know, very common in a saltwater experience.
Michael Williams
Or it's not a competitive thing at all.
Michael Williams
And I'll explain that.
Michael Williams
Peacock bass are the apex predators of their environment.
Michael Williams
And think about that for a minute.
Michael Williams
Think about just how hostile that environment is.
Michael Williams
Everything is trying to kill something in their environment, and they're at the top of their game.
Michael Williams
The only way that a peacock bass can really get eaten is if they are injured, then they're, you know, then they're taken.
Michael Williams
But otherwise, they can outmaneuver out power or just eat anything that's trying to get to them.
Michael Williams
So because of that, they're not afraid of us.
Michael Williams
They're not afraid of anything.
Michael Williams
We can literally move our boat into a lagoon.
Michael Williams
We can make a cast to a fish that might be hiding up under some structure that's ready to ambush.
Michael Williams
And as we pull our fly out of that structure, that fish will come out and will charge the fly.
Michael Williams
And at that moment, you want to actually speed up your fly.
Michael Williams
The minute you stop moving your fly, he loses interest, and he's gone.
Michael Williams
But if you speed up the fly, you cannot get that fly away from that fish fast enough.
Michael Williams
They come and bolt at it.
Michael Williams
And what's really fun is that they will come right to the boat.
Michael Williams
Most of the takes, most of the eats that we get are right at the rod tip, easily within 20ft of our.
Michael Williams
Of our.
Michael Williams
Of our.
Michael Williams
Of our rod tip.
Michael Williams
So we can actually see every.
Michael Williams
Every strike, which is so exciting and coming in.
Michael Williams
Coming back to circling back to the partner idea, they're always in numbers.
Michael Williams
So if you draw one peacock bass out of the structure, you're doing everything right.
Michael Williams
Your speed is right, your depth is right, and you're ready to hook up.
Michael Williams
That fish eats and turns well, there's another fish right behind it.
Michael Williams
In fact, there's probably six fish right behind it.
Michael Williams
And.
Michael Williams
And probably that second fish is bigger.
Michael Williams
So what that means is that the second angler now has an opportunity to lay that fly literally 25ft away from them, right behind his buddy's fish and you get a double.
Michael Williams
And you can literally spend the day having doubles.
Michael Williams
So you're not competing with your buddy, you're working with each other.
Michael Williams
You want your buddy to catch a fish because you can snake the fish right behind him.
Michael Williams
That's just really fun.
Michael Williams
And to me, that's unique.
Michael Williams
I don't know of any other fishery that's like that.
Michael Williams
So when I, when I go back, when I go back to talk about the numbers, once we implemented that doubles strategy, you know, our numbers went up 30%, 40%.
Michael Williams
And so it's just a day of laughing and it's a day of like, I can't believe we actually had.
Michael Williams
Years ago, I had a peacock bass charged my flies so fast, I pulled it out of the water, took completely did the wrong thing.
Michael Williams
And that fish literally swam and hit the boat, literally ran right into the boat.
Michael Williams
So they're just, they're just beasts.
Michael Williams
They bully everything in the, in the lagoons and you can catch them as an ambush predator.
Michael Williams
Sometimes they will go out in schools and very much like in saltwater, basically, the, the, the smaller the fish, the bigger the school.
Michael Williams
The bigger the fish, the smaller the school.
Michael Williams
So, you know, if you see a school of six or seven or eight pounders, there's probably going to be six or seven of those.
Michael Williams
If there's 20 pounders, there's probably two or three of those.
Michael Williams
If there's two pounders, there's probably 50 of those.
Michael Williams
And we love finding those schools of the smaller fish on day one because those two pound fish will teach you exactly the proper presentation, the proper speed, the proper depth.
Michael Williams
And they really teach you how to set the hook because they're so quick.
Michael Williams
And a lot of times we'll target those, those smaller fish on the first day just to get everyone's confidence up and understanding of what these fish want and what it'll take to get them to do that kill, hit and all those things.
Michael Williams
You can see now why I fish every day there.
Michael Williams
I literally fish six days a week, 10 hours a day, eight to 10 hours a day, and I'll do it for three months, almost four months every year, because I can't get enough of it.
Michael Williams
And we literally learn every week.
Michael Williams
We learn something new every week about those fish.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, that's really neat.
Marvin Cash
And the cool thing is because, I mean, I watch your Instagram feed.
Marvin Cash
There are lots of others.
Marvin Cash
I wouldn't call them bycatch, but there's some other interesting stuff that people like to catch down in the Amazon too, right?
Michael Williams
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Michael Williams
There are a lot of species, subspecies of peacock bass.
Michael Williams
There's about 16 species of peacock bass, so there's a lot of variety there.
Michael Williams
And each of our locations is chosen to kind of feature a particular species of peacock bass.
Michael Williams
But there's a lot of other things if you just want to take a break.
Michael Williams
You can catch all the, all the piranha you want on any of our locations.
Michael Williams
A lot of times I'll hook up little spinning rods with a bait hook and just some bait from lunch, some, some extra food from lunch.
Michael Williams
And on the, on our Rio Negro trips on the mothership, we'll just sit off the back of the ship and just catch piranha after piranha after piranha.
Michael Williams
It's just like fishing for bluegill.
Michael Williams
You know, they're everywhere.
Michael Williams
We also have catfish in all of our locations, and that's not something we fish for a lot.
Michael Williams
You know, most of my guests don't really care about bait fishing, but just this last season we had some wonderful return guests come.
Michael Williams
They actually came rigged and ready for catfish.
Michael Williams
And the guys were thrilled.
Michael Williams
They're like, oh, yeah, we know exactly where they are.
Michael Williams
I'm like, wait, you know where they are and you've never told me?
Michael Williams
They're like, well, you never asked because I'm always throwing a fly.
Michael Williams
And so those customers are catching big red tail catfish every day.
Michael Williams
Just an absolute blast.
Michael Williams
I think one was up to 70, 75 pounds.
Michael Williams
We had another one that was over 80 pounds.
Michael Williams
Talk about variety.
Michael Williams
And then there are plenty of others too.
Michael Williams
There's a small fish called a mantra shot, which is very trout shaped and they holding current just like trout.
Michael Williams
And you can throw little ant patterns or beetle patterns and they'll come up and sip it dry.
Michael Williams
Actually this year just started to bring in a couple six and seven weights with a floating line for those fish.
Michael Williams
And so, you know, if you just, if you want to experience, you know, we're seeing more and more anglers that have starting kind of a species checklist and they'll by the end of the week, they want to check off five or six new species and, and thankfully we have the fisheries that can do that.
Marvin Cash
Very, very neat.
Marvin Cash
And I know you've got three distinct hanging experiences and one of them is relatively new.
Marvin Cash
You want to let folks kind of know the three flavors of ice cream you have.
Michael Williams
Oh, sure, yeah.
Michael Williams
You know, the, the easiest one for people to understand and often the first trip that people book with us is the Rio Negro and big, beautiful, big, big river.
Michael Williams
We're in a Gorgeous mothership.
Michael Williams
It's a 130 foot long, three level yacht and it is built with beautiful Brazilian woods on the inside.
Michael Williams
Just stunning.
Michael Williams
We're not, we're not super luxurious, but that particular boat is very, very nice.
Michael Williams
And one, one nice thing about that trip is that everyone gets their own room.
Michael Williams
It's just our standard operation.
Michael Williams
There is single occupancy staterooms with your own private bath and air conditioning.
Michael Williams
And to my knowledge, I don't know of anybody else who offers that in the Amazon.
Michael Williams
And because of that, we can comfortably hold 10 to 12 customers.
Michael Williams
They all get their own space.
Michael Williams
And then we go out on bass trackers and we just, we just go and explore.
Michael Williams
We move that boat almost every night, which is a big expense, but it's something that I absolutely insist that we do it.
Michael Williams
I want to make sure our customers see as much variety as possible and just, I want them to be in fresh water every day.
Michael Williams
And it's also better for the fishery.
Michael Williams
We don't want to pound the fishery.
Michael Williams
So we will move that ship upriver and then midweek we'll go and we'll meet with a community that we're working very closely with.
Michael Williams
We do some humanitarian work with them.
Michael Williams
And if the fishing hasn't been stellar like we had planned, we actually have access to their private waters if we want to do this.
Michael Williams
Nice to have that option in our back pockets.
Michael Williams
While we're at the community, we'll always do community lunch.
Michael Williams
So my kitchen crew will make lunch for everyone in the village and all of my staff and all of my guests, we all just hang out and play soccer with the kids and eat lunch together.
Michael Williams
And you know, I find that on that trip home, regardless of how good the fishing was, people talk about the community.
Michael Williams
That's the thing that really sticks with them.
Michael Williams
And on interesting, that's what brings people back.
Michael Williams
So that's a really unique, a unique trip for us.
Michael Williams
And then, you know, the Renegar has great fishing.
Michael Williams
We do have big fish in there, but we don't have high populations of big fish.
Michael Williams
It's not like what it used to be and it's still outstanding.
Michael Williams
We still catch 22 pound fish there every season.
Michael Williams
We just don't get a lot of those.
Michael Williams
So a lot of times the second trip, people come back for our trophy fishery.
Michael Williams
So our trophy fishery is the Rio de Lua.
Michael Williams
It's actually a tributary of a tributary of the Rio Negro.
Michael Williams
It's extremely remote, it's small, it is clear water.
Michael Williams
And for those of you who don't know, clear water in the Amazon is absolutely unheard of.
Michael Williams
It's very difficult to find.
Michael Williams
It's usually kind of a like a coffee with milk.
Michael Williams
Color, coloration.
Michael Williams
And this water is absolutely beautiful.
Michael Williams
It's still tannic, it has that beautiful red color to it.
Michael Williams
But it, it gives us opportunities to see those fish moving into sight.
Michael Williams
Fish.
Michael Williams
And when you suddenly can see how many fish are in that water, you can really pick and choose which fish you're going to cast to.
Michael Williams
It's a completely different experience compared to the Rio Negro.
Michael Williams
So the Rio Negro is lots of fish in big, big, big water.
Michael Williams
And the Rio de Lua is giant fish and very small water.
Michael Williams
It comes with its own challenges.
Michael Williams
Because it's small water, we can't get a mothership in there.
Michael Williams
So we do floating cabin strategy and that is double occupancy.
Michael Williams
So bring a buddy and you do have your own private bath.
Michael Williams
It's all air conditions, very, very comfortable.
Michael Williams
We had cocktails and appetizers out on the beach.
Michael Williams
And one thing that nobody believes us until they come down and experience it themselves.
Michael Williams
We don't have mosquitoes in the jungle, so it's very easy to hang out on the beach.
Michael Williams
We'll set up a pergola so we're in the shade and we'll just sip cocktails and watch the monkeys hop on the branches and we don't have to worry about bugs at all.
Michael Williams
It's pretty remarkable.
Michael Williams
And then we'll have dinner in a nice air conditioned floating cabin and have a little barbecue if we want, hang out on the beach, watch the stars and then crash and get ready for the next day.
Michael Williams
So our third location is new and it is a tattoo gem.
Michael Williams
Tattoo.
Michael Williams
Gem means tattoo.
Michael Williams
And there's a very unique, rare species of peacock bass in that one and they call the vasiletti and they are absolutely beautiful.
Michael Williams
If you have a chance, you can look on our website.
Michael Williams
That's the best place to find photos of them.
Michael Williams
They're very rare, very hard to find.
Michael Williams
Bright yellow bodies, black, black marks that look like tattoos and then beautiful azul, beautiful blue dorsal fins.
Michael Williams
They're just striking and they aren't as big.
Michael Williams
That species as a Tumensis peacock bass, which is what we typically target in the Rio de Lua.
Michael Williams
But the Vasileti make up for it in their aggressiveness.
Michael Williams
They are incredibly aggressive.
Michael Williams
Even more so.
Michael Williams
The reason why there aren't any Tamentis in this river system is because the Vasileti basically pushed them all out or eaten them.
Michael Williams
So, you know, a world record for Vasileti is close to £18 and we've caught 16 and 17 pounders in this water.
Michael Williams
So they're a very, very big fish.
Michael Williams
We for that customer who's maybe fished our other locations or that customer who really wants to experience a species that very few people have caught, the Tattoo Gem is a great option.
Michael Williams
And again that's small water, that's also clear water.
Michael Williams
We're extremely blessed to have those, those fisheries and that's floating cabins.
Michael Williams
So very similar setup to our Rio D?
Michael Williams
Lua.
Michael Williams
So we've really got some good variety, good options for guests.
Marvin Cash
Interesting.
Marvin Cash
And in terms of time of year, you know, how does that work?
Marvin Cash
I think you mentioned you don't, you know, you're not on the Rio Negro during high water but you know, it's just for people that are working that, that travel calendar, you know, what windows of time should they be looking for?
Michael Williams
Yeah, you know the million dollar question is always what time of year.
Michael Williams
You know, when are the water levels going to be optimal?
Michael Williams
And it is hard to imagine.
Michael Williams
But you know, I talked a little bit about how big the Rio Negro is.
Michael Williams
Well you know that river will go up or down in depth by 30ft in a typical day, I'm sorry, in a typical season.
Michael Williams
So just imagine for a moment a river that's 10 miles across, 13 miles across in places and it goes up 30ft.
Michael Williams
It's just a massive amount of water.
Michael Williams
So we are very careful to time our season right when that water has, has come, started to come down for a couple of weeks and then continues to go down.
Michael Williams
And so we're there mid January through February, sometimes into into March.
Michael Williams
And that is a, that is a really special time on the Rio Negro because those fish have been, have not been fished to, for about three months by any, any outfitters and we can get in there and fish in these areas that they've just been untouched.
Michael Williams
And the, the fish are very aggressive, they're very hungry.
Michael Williams
So we really love that time frame for the Rio Negro.
Michael Williams
Rio de Lua are the same, same reasons.
Michael Williams
And the tattoo of Gem, quite often that water is too low to get a boat in there to get our job, even our john boats in there.
Michael Williams
And so September and October are ideal water levels for our trophy fishery, Rue Dalua.
Michael Williams
And then really we're just in the Tattoo Gem in November and I mean that's the only time those, those two rivers are fished.
Michael Williams
So those, those rivers are basically rested for for 10 months a year which is just a mind boggling to think about.
Michael Williams
Again we're really blessed to have those fisheries.
Michael Williams
So we're there January and February and then September through November right up until Thanksgiving.
Michael Williams
Nobody wants to travel on Thanksgiving.
Michael Williams
And I totally get that.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
Marvin Cash
I mean, particularly now, you know, fast forward and think about Cheeseman Canyon and thinking about that not being fished for 10 months, right?
Michael Williams
Oh, exactly, Exactly.
Michael Williams
Mind boggling.
Marvin Cash
Yeah.
Marvin Cash
And so, you know, I think people have been able to get a little bit of an idea about kind of, you know, how you think about things and how your approach is different.
Marvin Cash
You know, why don't you put a finer point on kind of what sets Nomadic Waters apart from other outfitters that are in the Amazon?
Michael Williams
Sure, that, that's an important question.
Michael Williams
You know, we.
Michael Williams
We are blessed to have great competition.
Michael Williams
There's great competitors out there.
Michael Williams
There's some really good outfitters in the Amazon.
Michael Williams
I think as people are looking at who they should book with, there are a couple things that just make us different and unique.
Michael Williams
And one of them is, you know, there are a lot of agencies out there.
Michael Williams
There's a lot of booking agencies.
Michael Williams
They're American companies who actually hire Brazilian fishing companies to run things for them.
Michael Williams
We are actually not a booking agency.
Michael Williams
This is our family business.
Michael Williams
I think that makes us really unique.
Michael Williams
I think the owner fishing with guests every day, that's extremely unique.
Michael Williams
We are actually the only Orvis with the exclusive Orvis endorsed expedition for the country of Brazil.
Michael Williams
We're very proud of that.
Michael Williams
That's a very big deal for us.
Michael Williams
Good partnership there.
Michael Williams
And we, as soon as we can get it on the website, we will announce that we are part of the Winston Preferred Lodge program, which is very important to me.
Michael Williams
I've been a lifelong fan of Winston as a company and with Cabela's.
Michael Williams
Cabela's has a special signature hosted event where it's invitation only, basically.
Michael Williams
And they're booking with us.
Michael Williams
They're booking us two to three weeks every year in the Rio Negro.
Michael Williams
They just, they just bought up the rest of my Rio Negro season in 2026, those things.
Michael Williams
It sounds like I'm name dropping, but I think for someone who's just going into this fresh, they need to understand that some of the biggest brands in the business are supporting us and booking with us and they're coming back.
Michael Williams
And I think this is really important.
Michael Williams
I think that should really put some people's minds at ease.
Michael Williams
And I think probably the biggest thing that sets us apart, there's a lot of things, but I think our humanitarian work, the work that we do with the communities.
Michael Williams
There are plenty of fishing companies that do that kind of thing and I'm psyched.
Michael Williams
There needs to be more and more and more.
Michael Williams
But I think what's unique about us is that that's our heritage, that's our roots.
Michael Williams
That's where we started.
Michael Williams
We originally started as a humanitarian group with a great, great passion and experience in the fishing industry.
Michael Williams
But we, that's the purpose of us being in Brazil, frankly, that's why we're in the Amazon, is to do the work that we do and, and, and we can do it while we're sharing this amazing experience with our customers.
Michael Williams
So I think there's some, a few things there that really make us different.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, and I would say too, you know, I know you've even gone so far as to form a separate, not for profit.
Marvin Cash
What is it?
Marvin Cash
Parallel research, parallel resource to support your work.
Michael Williams
That's right.
Michael Williams
We, you know, post pandemic, all outfitters were in trouble for many, many reasons.
Michael Williams
And we went, we lost two years of work.
Michael Williams
And when we were able to get back in there, when everything opened up again, you know, we suddenly realized that, you know, we, we were self funding all this humanitarian work.
Michael Williams
We were paying with our own, our own private money or if we had a profitable year, we would have the, the company profits paid for the humanitarian work.
Michael Williams
And when we rolled into the Rio Negro, we just suddenly realized this is, we cannot afford to do any of this work.
Michael Williams
And it was really difficult, it was a hard thing to swallow because again, that's our heartbeat.
Michael Williams
That's incredibly important to us.
Michael Williams
And we had some customers fishing with us from Texas and I man, thank God for Texans.
Michael Williams
I just have to say these gentlemen came to me on the second to the last night of their trip and they said, michael, we're, we're not going to fish tomorrow.
Michael Williams
I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Michael Williams
Everything okay?
Michael Williams
Oh, yeah, everything's fine.
Michael Williams
Instead, you know, we're going to sleep in, get some breakfast, rest up, and then we want you guys to present to us and we really want to hear all the details about what you're doing with these communities.
Michael Williams
We want to hear it all.
Michael Williams
Don't hold back.
Michael Williams
Because at the, up until this point, we really hadn't.
Michael Williams
It's not something that we've shared with a lot of people.
Michael Williams
The customers see the work that we do, but it's not something we actually, you know, present.
Michael Williams
And they wanted to hear all the details.
Michael Williams
And so make a long story short, we spent the day in meetings telling them what we wanted to do.
Michael Williams
And, and how we've done it in the past and what we want to do in the future.
Michael Williams
And they made a, an offer and they said, look, you need to do this the right way.
Michael Williams
And that would include starting your own non profit organization entity that is 501c3 approved with the IRS.
Michael Williams
And you know, we set a schedule with the exact work that, that you want to do.
Michael Williams
And we will fund this season of humanitarian work.
Michael Williams
And let me tell you, Marvin, that was a lot of money.
Michael Williams
That was a big check.
Michael Williams
And they just stepped right up and said, we're going to fund it.
Michael Williams
It's up to you to raise the money in the future, but this year we've got you.
Michael Williams
And it was a remarkable experience.
Michael Williams
And the work that we were able to do, especially post pandemic, there's so much work to do.
Michael Williams
And so that was a genesis of parallel resource.
Michael Williams
And we call it parallel resource because on the Rio Negro, for example, we have a separate support boat that follows our mothership.
Michael Williams
It'll hold supplies and things like that, but it basically houses our medical clinic and our dental clinic and it stores all of our water filtration systems.
Michael Williams
And so that is actually a parallel resource vessel and it can run independently or it can run alongside with us as we're, as we're fishing.
Michael Williams
Sometimes there'll be an emergency and villagers will come up to us and say, hey, someone just took a bad fall.
Michael Williams
Do you have any medical attention?
Michael Williams
It's like, absolutely, absolutely.
Michael Williams
We have exactly, you know, get them here to the boat and we can help them out.
Michael Williams
We love those kind of opportunities because we want to be able to, to help them when they come to us.
Michael Williams
And so I'm not great at asking for donations.
Michael Williams
In fact, I'm pretty terrible at it.
Michael Williams
But customers see what we do and especially on those days where we're having lunch and they can see it's an authentic relationship.
Michael Williams
It's not something, it's not a business transaction that, that we have with these families.
Michael Williams
These are our partners, these are our friends and we help them a lot and they help us.
Michael Williams
You know, they watch our backs too.
Michael Williams
And so that, that's the side of the business that, as you can tell, we're passionate about.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, and I think it's so important too, particularly, you know, once you start traveling kind of outside of the United States or, you know, Europe and places like that, you know, you know, not to treat these places like, you know, consumable resources like, you know, Kansas offerings, right?
Michael Williams
Oh, absolutely.
Michael Williams
A part of our core values is exploration without exploitation.
Michael Williams
It's, you know, that's one of the filters that we run every decision through.
Michael Williams
You know, are you really doing this for the right reasons?
Michael Williams
And what are the long term impacts of our, of our choices?
Michael Williams
You know, here's a great example of a bad, of well meaning people making really bad decision.
Michael Williams
About 15 years ago, a group of well meaning foreigners came through that were dentists.
Michael Williams
And you know, dental health is a major issue in these communities.
Michael Williams
I mean, most people have lost all their teeth by their mid-20s.
Michael Williams
And anyways, 15 years ago, a group came in and put braces on all the kids in the community.
Michael Williams
I mean, that's a real head scratcher.
Michael Williams
Who thought this up?
Michael Williams
I have no idea.
Michael Williams
I know they meant well.
Michael Williams
I know they thought they were helping, but the problem is they never came back.
Michael Williams
So we came into this village and my, my dentist Anderson at the end of the day came in, I'm like, all right, well how many, how many teeth did you pull today?
Michael Williams
Because a lot of times we'll, we'll have a little chart on the wall of like, this is how many fish we caught today.
Michael Williams
This is how many teeth we pulled today.
Michael Williams
And he goes, you know, Michael, I, we didn't pull any teeth at all today.
Michael Williams
I'm like, what were you doing?
Michael Williams
Everything okay?
Michael Williams
He goes, you will not believe what I did today.
Michael Williams
He says, I spent the day taking braces off of adults.
Michael Williams
And just imagine the pain those people went through.
Michael Williams
Imagine the discomfort of having to live with that.
Michael Williams
And I'm shocked they allowed us into their village.
Michael Williams
If you think about it, you know, you just think about these could not have had good memories of those foreigners coming in there and thinking they were doing good work.
Michael Williams
So for us, it's very important that we are not doing more damage thinking that we're actually helping these people.
Michael Williams
And I think we've got a really good track record of that.
Michael Williams
And a story like that, it's easy to see the contribution that my people are making with these families is just remarkable.
Marvin Cash
It's an interesting thing.
Marvin Cash
You know when you watch and you see people being helpful to feel good about themselves as opposed to being truly helpful.
Michael Williams
Boy, you said it right there.
Marvin Cash
And you see that in a lot of different places.
Marvin Cash
And we don't need to go down that philosophical rat hole, but it's a really interesting thing.
Marvin Cash
It's like you go somewhere and it's like, well, they lose all their teeth by their mid-20s.
Marvin Cash
You're like, well, clearly they need to be straight.
Michael Williams
Yeah, right, exactly.
Michael Williams
It's like, who Thought of this.
Michael Williams
Who approved of this?
Marvin Cash
So, you know, Michael, folks have questions.
Marvin Cash
I know.
Marvin Cash
I think I originally met you probably on the show circuit.
Marvin Cash
Are you guys going to be out there with everybody else and early 2025?
Michael Williams
Absolutely.
Michael Williams
You know, we, we love the shows.
Michael Williams
Typically we'll do three or four of Ben shows with the fly fishing show this year.
Michael Williams
We've got some health issues at home, closer to home.
Michael Williams
So we'll only be able to do the Atlanta show this year.
Michael Williams
We'll be back in full force in 2026 and definitely will support Ben.
Michael Williams
Big, big fans.
Michael Williams
And then, you know, Bo Beasley with the Virginia Fly Fishing and Wine Festival or definitely a big part of those shows.
Michael Williams
Really enjoy that crowd.
Michael Williams
That's a great show.
Michael Williams
If you haven't seen it, it's definitely worth the drive up and be there.
Michael Williams
And then Trout Fest, we won't be able to do this year, but we'll be back there next year.
Michael Williams
And shows are just a great time to catch up with friends and customers.
Michael Williams
And interestingly enough, we don't book a lot at the shows.
Michael Williams
A lot of the booking that we do happens before those shows with just return customers.
Michael Williams
But the shows are worth it for us just so that we can be face to face with a lot of our friends again.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, it's definitely a great time of year.
Marvin Cash
And Michael, before I let you go this evening, is there anything else you want to share with our listeners?
Michael Williams
You know, I've probably talked enough.
Michael Williams
I just appreciate this opportunity.
Michael Williams
I would just say in closing, if, if you have any interest in seeing the Amazon, if it is something that has just kind of been in the back of your mind or you just want to have a jungle experience like that in a really safe, comfortable place with honestly, some of the most remarkable people you will ever meet in your life, I would say do it sooner than later.
Michael Williams
This year has been a reminder to me and our family that, you know, life is short and surprises can happen.
Michael Williams
And I'll talk to gentlemen at the shows or customers, potential customers at the shows.
Michael Williams
And they're like, yeah, one day I'm going to do that.
Michael Williams
One day I'm going to do that.
Michael Williams
And then they come in, they're like, you know, I can't do it anymore.
Michael Williams
I should have done it when I, when I thought about it earlier.
Michael Williams
And I hear that all the time.
Michael Williams
And, you know, why wouldn't you go?
Michael Williams
Why wouldn't you experience this?
Michael Williams
It's just, it's a very, very special place.
Michael Williams
So that's all I have to say.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, well, I'll just echo that and say I 100% agree with.
Marvin Cash
And, you know, if folks want to learn more about Nomadic Waters, Michael, where should they go?
Michael Williams
You know, I would say our, our best photos and videos are on Instagram.
Michael Williams
So just at Nomadic Waters, we'll, we'll show you our.
Michael Williams
You know, we, when we're in the jungle, we have wi fi in all of our locations, unfortunately.
Michael Williams
So we actually do daily updates.
Michael Williams
You can see what we caught that day, which is a lot of fun.
Michael Williams
And then we have a, a real strong website@nomadicwaters.com and a lot of that website is hidden behind a password protected area because it has all my tips and tricks of how to catch peacock bass for our customers.
Michael Williams
But there's still a lot of really fun videos and good information there.
Michael Williams
And if you've got questions about specific time of year, specific location, or just all those other questions that you're afraid to ask, those answers are right there.
Michael Williams
So that would be a good place to look.
Marvin Cash
Well, there you go.
Marvin Cash
And I'll drop all that stuff in the show notes.
Marvin Cash
And Michael, I super appreciate you taking some time to chat with me this evening.
Michael Williams
Oh, you're very kind.
Michael Williams
It's been an honor.
Michael Williams
Thank you so much, Marvin.
Marvin Cash
Oh, it's been my pleasure.
Marvin Cash
Take care.
Marvin Cash
We hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you.
Marvin Cash
If the fly fishing show is coming to a town near you, head over to flyfishingshow.com to plan your visitors.
Marvin Cash
And don't forget to check out trout routes pro at maps troutroutes.com.
Marvin Cash
use ArtFly 20 Art Fly 20 to get 20% off of your membership.
Marvin Cash
Tight lines, everybody.
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