S7, Ep 27: Master Class Angling: The Art of Fishing Exotic Species with Drew Price

Marvin Cash 00:00:00

Hey, folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly. On this episode, we're joined by Drew Price, the man behind Masterclass Angling.Drew shares his passion for chasing exotic species on the fly on his home waters of Lake Champlain. I think you're really going to enjoy this one, but before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items.If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and subscribe and leave us a rating review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out. And we recently launched a new podcast called the Butcher Shop where the meat meets the water.Each episode focuses on a single pattern from our Predator Fly angler tire. We take a deep dive into the genesis of the pattern, its design, and how to fish it. Like the inventor.We recently dropped our interview with Blaine Chocolate, taking a deep dive into the T bone. And our interviews with Tommy lynch and Russ Madden are dropping soon.To make sure you don't miss a single episode, be sure to subscribe in the podcatcher of your choice. We will only be distributing episodes on the Articulate Fly for a limited time. And finally, a shout out to our sponsor. Trout Routes.We all know streams and rivers are getting crowded, and chances are you're not the only one at your local access point. Get away from the crowds and busy gravel lots by using Trout Routes Pro.With over 350,000 access points mapped across 50,000 trout streams and much more, Trout Routes has all the data you need to help you find angling opportunities that others will overlook. Up your game and download the app today. Use code ArtFly20. ArtFly20.All one word for 20% off of your Trout Routes Pro membership at maps.troutroutes.com now, on to our interview. Well, Drew, welcome to the Articulate Fly.

Drew Price 00:01:55

Thank you for having me.

Marvin Cash 00:01:56

Yeah, looking forward to it. And we have a tradition on the Articulate Fly. We like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

Drew Price 00:02:04

Well, I can go back to, I believe I was 7 years old fishing with my grandfather. We were on a little tiny trout stream in Constable, New York, and he was.He was walking behind me and I had the rod over my shoulder and, and I stopped and he didn't. And next thing I know is the. The worm hook is.Is hooked into his shirt pocket and he looked at me and he said, well, you just caught yourself 175 pound sucker. That was my. That's my earliest fishing memory. We didn't. We didn't catch many trout.I've subsequently gotten Fish that, that the stream a fair amount and it's a fun little stream. Mostly stock browns, but it was a, it was a great memory of my grandfather.

Marvin Cash 00:02:56

Very, very neat. And so when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing?

Drew Price 00:03:00

When I was in college at SUNY Plattsburgh, I picked up fly fishing in, I guess it was 1993, the first time I graduated from, from college there.I graduated an art degree and I asked my parents for a fly rod grad in December and I went out and beat the snow quite a bit with it and taught myself how to cast. And within, within a month of having that, I bought a fly tying kit and the two kind of went hand in hand.And that next spring, very first fish I got on the fly was a, was a nice smallmouth bass out of the Saranac river, probably about four, four and a half pounds. And definitely developed a love of smallmouth at that, at that moment.

Marvin Cash 00:03:51

Very, very neat. And so obviously you've been in the game for a long time.You know, who are some of the folks that have mentored you on your fly fishing journey and what have they taught you?

Drew Price 00:04:00

Well, you know, it's, it's interesting. So initially I really, you know, I had a couple of buddies in college that, that I fly, you know, that I fly fish with a little bit.But most of it, most of my early fly fishing experience was, was entirely on my own.There weren't a lot of people that I knew that, that really fly fish seriously and, and were interested in doing the kind of fly fishing that I wanted to do. I've always had kind of like, like what can I catch next? Attitude and so I would, I would get out and chase whatever I could find.You know, I, when I first started fly fishing, I really wanted to get into pike, you know, catch pike on a fly, I wanted to get musky on a fly.You know, all these warm water species that, that, you know, in the, in the early 90s, nobody was really talking about, nobody was really chasing and, but that was what I wanted to do, you know, like my first muskie on the fly was 95, right? And there was, there was nobody talking about muskies. There was nobody in my area in northern New York doing it.So I didn't really have any mentors and in a lot of ways I was kind of self taught. That has changed in the past 10 years or so where I've really kind of come into the industry more.And you know, I, the people I really look up to and, and I'll I'll hit up for advice. Are, are Tom Rosenbauer and, and Blaine Chocolate.Are, are two people that, you know, who I have a lot of respect for and are willing to answer questions for me and, and talk me through things when I need help. And that's been really, you know, I couldn't ask for two people to reach out to, you know.

Marvin Cash 00:06:12

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the amazing thing too is, you know, not only back in kind of the mid-90s, you know, there was no information for chasing these.We'll just call them kind of alternative species on the fly. But, but I mean, the gear wasn't there either, right?I mean, and so no, you know, this isn't like, you just go to like the catalog or the Internet and you get a muskie line, you get a muskie rod, you get a muskie reel, you go buy muskie flies and you go buy, you know, terminal tackle and you're done. I mean, it was like you had to kind of build it all.

Drew Price 00:06:44

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, no doubt.You know, my, my, my initial muskie flies were basically just a kind of a deceiver derivative that, that I kind of made up myself, you know, with a lot of bucktail and, and rabbit strip. And I was using the old Mustad 3366 hooks and, and whatever hooks I could find the wire.I, I had picked up some single strand wire down in Florida on a fishing trip to the Everglades.I, you know, I found it at, at this fishing shop and I bought you know, like a couple of packages, like 30 foot rolls and that, you know, that was my pike and muskie leader. You know, for pike.When I was pike fishing, I was just using a, you know, a conventional tackle leader, which really aren't great, you know, when you're fishing on a fly, fishing with a fly rod.And you know, back then there were no, like none of these, these awesome lines that are out now that are, you know, like two line weights heavier to really help you propel those big flies.So, you know, and the rods weren't, the rods weren't quite right, you know, you know, back when I really got into it, it was, you know, it was, Im6 was like the hot thing. And you know, I remember building a couple of my, my own rods because I worked for a hook and hack.They were based in Plattsburgh for quite a while and I worked for them for a while and built my, you know, an IM69 weight. And that was my, that was my go to musky rod for for several years. Musky and pike rod for several years.And you know, I just remember what a bear that was, you know, like it was so much more pleasant to do the stuff that I do with gear that is intended to do what I do, you know.

Marvin Cash 00:08:54

Yeah, absolutely. And so when did you get the guide bug?

Drew Price 00:08:59

So I had, I've been fly fishing for about 15 years.I had moved from northern New York to Vermont and you know, I thought about guiding here and there I was, I was kind of like, you know, I don't know if I really have the chops for it. I don't know if I really have the know how and you know, do I. Is this something I really want to do?And then I happened to see a local guide service that was looking for people, looking to bring people on, on board. I think it was an ad on Craigslist of all places. And I was like, you know, what the heck, I'll do that.And I came on board and you know, it was mostly guiding trout and, and I was like, hey guys, you know, I do all this stuff with like bowfin and carp and gar and pike and, and they're like, you do what? And you know, I was just like this, you know, I, I've got all these things that I do.Is this something you think people would be interested in trying out? And they're like, sure. And within a couple years, about a third of the trips that we were running were the trips that I brought to them.And I quickly realized that, you know, didn't really want to do one on one trout trips anymore. And I really wanted to focus in on the kind of stuff I was more interested. And I went out on my own. Started masterclass.

Marvin Cash 00:10:26

Yeah, got it. And so when was that?

Drew Price 00:10:29

That was in fall of 2010.

Marvin Cash 00:10:33

Got it. And you know, so you mentioned Tom and Blaine in terms of fly fishing mentors.You know, I would imagine they've been incredibly influential in your guiding. But are there any other folks in the guide space that have kind of mentored you on your journey?

Drew Price 00:10:47

You know, I've got some, some, some friends around here that, that have, that have been pretty, pretty helpful. You know, there's, there's Jesse Haller who works for Orvis now, was, was really great. You know, we, we talk shops.There's definitely a group of guys around here that I talk to pretty routinely now. But you know, stuff that I do isn't, you know, it's, it's very non traditional, especially for Vermont.Like there, you know, when I, when I started Bringing Bowen to the table around here. You know, I.When I brought it up to the guide service that I was originally with, I was like, you know, there's these fish called bowfin in Lake Champlain, and. And they all looked at me and they're like, what. What's a Bowen?You know, so I didn't really, you know, like, I kind of, you know, not trying to put myself up on a pedestal, I. I just know the stuff that I like that I know the stuff that I want to do, and I know how to do it. And I'm.I'm, you know, and kind of a natural educator. I worked in the education field for. For 10 years.And I love teaching people new things, and I love teaching people about the lake that we're on and then the fish that are here and how to catch. And it just kind of came together for me. I don't know that if that makes sense at all.

Marvin Cash 00:12:26

Yeah, it does. You know, and it's an interesting thing because, I mean, I've. I've got.I've been fortunate enough to know and fish with a lot of guides, and, you know, it's kind of. And you and I have talked about this. I mean, it's kind of that secret sauce, right, where, you know, like.Like, God nirvana is to fill your calendar with people that you want to fish with that want to fish the way you want to guide people.

Drew Price 00:12:48

Right, Right. Well, you know, actually, I actually have.I have to take this back a little bit because I just remembered probably one of the best pieces of advice that I ever got about guiding was in 2012, and it was in August of 2012. And earlier that year, I had filmed with River Monsters. They came to Vermont to film an episode. It was just Vampires of the Deep.They were chasing after lamprey. And. And U.S. fish and Wildlife Service had. Had recommended me because they wanted to try to put Jeremy on. Jeremy Wade on. On some muskies.And they're like, the guy you got to talk to is Drew Price.And, you know, and I talked to them and I was like, you know, muskies may not be a great option, but bowfin and Gar and there's a few other things, and I'd be happy to help you out with this. So I was like, I know all these waters that you're on and. And ended up spending five days with them. You. You barely even see me in the episode.It's kind of. Kind of funny. They. They're filming the back end of the canoe. Jeremy's in the front of the canoe.I'm in the middle, and the top third of the screen is my butt, so you really don't see me much in the episode. But Jeremy came back to Vermont later that summer, and. And he reached out to me, and he said, you know, let's go fishing. And we took him.I took him out, and at the end of the day, when I was driving him back off in the hotel, we're just sitting in my truck in the parking lot talking. And he was telling me about when he guided in the Amazon, and he said, you know what I did? He said, I did what I wanted to do.I didn't let other people create the expectations of what they wanted my guide service to be. He's like, I wanted my guide service to be this.He's like, I went out and I fished for the things that I wanted to fish for, and people came to me because of the interest that I had in those things. And he said. He said. He's like, I was booked out two years in advance. He's like, there is a waiting list.And he's like, do what you want to do with your guide service. And that's really. The first 10 years of my guide service, that's what I did. And. And it's kind of still my attitude about it. Like, I.You know, I could do trout trips. I don't. For the most part, I'll do some streamer trips for. For. For larger trout here and there, or sight fishing for. For. For large browns in the.In the fall, but for the most part, I avoid that.I have been very fortunate that most of the people who come to me want to do the things that I do because they see the excitement that I have for what it is that I do. And. And, you know, whether it's, you know, learning how to catch both in a gar and a fly or. Or learning new techniques on, you know, like, how to.How to. How to locate lake trout and target lake trout with a fly rod or going out and just like, how many different species can we get in a day on fly? And.And I think a lot of people really appreciate that. And. And I've actually found that I get a lot of guides who come to me who want to do something different. Right? Like, we've all chased trout.And, you know, that's. That's one thing that is like, you know, we. Fly fishing is really a trout culture for the most part, but people are starting to see, wow, there's.There's all these other options out there.I mean, it's not really starting to see but are you're starting to see it become more mainstream these days, I think and you're seeing people like wow, this is, this is really exciting. I can go out on the lake and I have an opportunity to catch this ancient predator.But then I can also use like a three way rod and catch these, these trophy beautiful panfish. And you know I got a shot at catching a channel catfish that I'm sight fishing for or along those guard.I'm catching it with a fly that I'm not using a hook. You know, it's and, and people are like this is pretty amazing.And you know I see a lot of, a lot of anglers get really excited about that these days and people are coming to me for that and that excites me, you know, like, you know, I think you can hear in my voice like that I find this stuff really fun and, and not, not knowing exactly what the day is going to bring when I get out in, in some of the backwaters that I fish that you know, like dropping this rod and grabbing another one because something just suddenly showed up, you know, like work at panfish and all of a sudden there's a, there's a 30 inch bowfin that comes right up to inspect the boat, you know and, and you know I love that stuff and, and I'm finding more and more anglers are loving that kind of opportunity.

Marvin Cash 00:18:38

Very, very neat. And so you know, you guide you know, Lake Champlain, you know and for folks, I mean I'm, I'm a southerner, so not super familiar.

Drew Price 00:18:46

Yep.

Marvin Cash 00:18:46

So can you kind of give us kind of a little bit of an overview of the area and the fishery?

Drew Price 00:18:52

Sure, absolutely. So, so Lake Champlain is, is. It's bordered by Vermont on the east side and New York on the west side, the Adirondacks on, on.On the New York side and the Green Mountains on the, on the Vermont side. And it goes north into Canada into Quebec. And 10% of the lake is in Missisquoi Bay, which is part of which is in Canada.That's a place I don't, I've never fished in in the Canadian part and Canadian waters in Lake Champlain. But the lake itself is 120 miles long and it, you know in into from Canada down past Whitehall, New York. Both places the U.S. navy.And it is 12 miles wide at its widest point near burlington. It's about 400ft deep at its mean level which is about 96ft above sea level. It's got about 7 1/2 trillion gallons of water.But I really like to think of Lake Champlain as a very dynamic system because it, it's, it's a, you know, a big catch basin right for, for it's got a very large watershed. And after the spring melt, Lake Champlain typically will get to 99 to 100ft above sea level, sometimes higher.We had the highest lake level in 2011 of 103.3ft. So tremendous amount of water there. And unlike, you know, Lake Champlain is not like a bathtub.So it doesn't just come straight up when it comes out, it spreads out and it spreads out into these, these large wetlands. We have these massive wetland complexes in both New York and Vermont. Vermont has a lot more than New York.And you know, so you get these incredible opportunities to fish flooded forests in the springtime. And we have carp and bowfin and, and pike and it like literally in the trees.It's pretty neat to be able to push coral through the trees and find your, your target species. But in, in, in this late summer, you know, getting to September, even to October, the lake level can drop down as low as 94 or even 93ft.So you could have a 7 foot lake level fluctuation throughout the year.And if we have like a big water event like when we had Hurricane Irene or we had the big flood event two years ago, I mean, the lake level came up two feet in, in two days, which is just a massive volume of water. So it's, it's a really dynamic system that can change a lot. And every time, you know, every year is new on, on the lake.So when you get on that lake, you'll have a general idea where those, where the fish are. But you really have to kind of relearn it every year, which I, you know, I, I find that very exciting. I find that really interesting.You know, you kind of got a different playing field every time you get out there. You know, you don't know exactly where. You have an idea what everything's going to be and how it's going to play out, but you don't know ex.And in one place it fishes very well one year, may not fish very well the next year. So that's, that's kind of a neat part of it. But we have 88 different species in the lake.Of that about 25 or 30 are really available to, to, for fly anglers to catch. We've got a lot of different panfish. We've got, we've got some of the Best. Best bass fishing in the country.Lake Champlain is rate the past 30 years has been rated by Bassmasters as one of the top five bass lakes in the country primarily because of smallmouth bass. The small mouse fishery here is just absolutely insane and I love chasing them in the lake.But what I find even more fun is finding is chasing them in the tributaries in the springtime when they come into spawn because you go out with a five or a six weight and you've got. You're basically fishing like you'd be fishing for trout but you're getting 2 to 5 pound smallmouth instead which, which doesn't suck.We've got a lot of trout or we've got a lot of. A lot of lake trout. Our lake trout fishery is fantastic. They're available in the early season and in the late season.I kind of call them my shoulder season fish.I so I'll start catching those in in March and using floating lines and intermediate lines and they're available until the water starts warming up to about 45 degrees and they think stop, start sinking down a little bit and you can still get them on sinking lines down to about 50ft and then they'll show back up again starting usually in October. October, November and December can be fantastic months for chasing lakers on a fly. We've got some great salmon runs on the lake.We've got landlocked Atlantic salmon. We do have some steelhead runs. I've got pike, pickerel and muskie.We have hybrids of pike and pickerel which some people around here will call pikerel. Really, really attractive fish. We've got walleye, we've got bowfin. You know, I.I've got one client who's got almost every IGFA typic class record bowfin and most of them have been caught on Lake Champlain. So we have a lot of bowfin, we've got long nose gar. We've got a great population of carp. We get these great sucker runs.I love catching suckers on a fly.I actually the state record, the Vermont state record for white sucker caught on a fly which is a massive white sucker, like 6.3 pounds or something like that. Really big fish. Let me see, what else do we have? And we got, we got just. There's so many different opportunities when you go out there.And we've got freshwater drum. I love, I love fishing them. A lot of people around here call them sheepshead. That's one of the hardest fighting fish on the lake. They're.They're really Challenging to sight fish for, but you can also cast streamers for them. I get some, we get some big ones up to around 20 pounds.And, and that will just, you know, that will bend your e way right down to the cork when you're fighting one of those things. It's, it's, it's pretty awesome fishery.I feel really fortunate to be here, and I feel really fortunate to be, you know, like one of the first people who's really, you know, promoting Lake Champlain fly fishing.

Marvin Cash 00:26:33

Very, very neat. And you'd mentioned earlier that you, you know, you basically had to relearn the lake every year.And, you know, most of my guide guests are, you know, creek and river guides. And so, you know, is that the main difference, you know, fishing in a lake or is. Are there other things that make the lake game different?

Drew Price 00:26:51

Oh, there's, there's so many things that make it different. I mean, you know, you got to deal with boat traffic. You really have to know how to play the weather. You know, like if you're.I'm fishing in, in a towie on this lake and this is, this is a big lake. You know, it's a, it's a very large lake. And, you know, if I am not paying close attention to the weather, I could be in deep trouble.You know, you really have to know what bays are safe with the direction of the wind.You got to be really paying attention to that wind forecast, the weather forecast, and then just paying attention when you're on the water, because things can go wrong very, very quickly, you know, especially when the water is cold. You know, when the, when the water is, is below 60 degrees, you know, that's, that's a dangerous place this is now.And I, you know, I take safety very seriously on the lake. If it's a lake where things can change very dramatically very quickly.I can remember one day I was out with my Bowfin client, Richard Hart, one of my Bowfin clients, and he's the guy who's got all the IGFA records. And Rich and I were. This is back when I was guiding out of a canoe and Rich and I were out in this backwater and we had a light chop on the water.It was maybe 3 or 4 inch chop. And I just saw this dark cloud coming across the lake and I was like, rich, I'm really concerned about that.And it started getting in closer and the wind started picking up and it went from a 3 to 4 inch chop to a 3 to 4 inch crashing waves. And we had a mile and A half to paddle back to the launch. And that was one of the most frightening moments I've ever had on that lake.But it went from, it went from zero to 60 in, in under five minutes, you know, so you really have to keep your widget value on the lake. And, you know, you kind of have to watch out for other boaters. You got to watch out for other anglers.We have a lot of bass tournaments on this lake, and sometimes they don't always respect the other anglers who are not targeting bass. I've had them blow in front of me a few times, but, you know, it's, it's, it's a really different environment.And you know, like, there, there are times you can go into a place where you have, you know, like, carp are notorious for this. I can go into a bay where I normally will find a lot of carp. And, you know, the day before there was carp everywhere. I go in there the next day, you.You can't find a fish. You can't, like, no idea where they went. You know, like, they just disappeared overnight. They may have gone into deeper water.You know, something may have happened that, you know, big question mark and one I have never figured out. But it's, it's, it's a really, it could be a very variable system.And you're also dealing with, especially when you're dealing with cooler water fish or, or sold water fish like the lake trout or pike.As that water warms up in the lake, those fish start moving deeper and they find, they move, they start using different habitats than they were using earlier in the season, and they will move back to those habitats. So you kind of have to know, you know, that progression of where they're going to head to and when they're going to head there.And that's not something that you can, you know, learn overnight. You, you really have to spend a lot of time, you know, watching and observing what's going on.And on a lake this size, you know, like, I, I consider myself a student of the lake because every time I get on that lake, I learn something new. I learned something different that I hadn't learned before. It might be a new location, it might be a new way to fish.Different parts of the lake or for different species are like, wow, I, I never realized these species were, were utilizing this habitat this time of the year. So you really kind of, you know, when you're out there, being very observant really pays off.And being willing to talk to a lot of other people and seeing what they're having for experiences. I talk to a lot of conventional anglers. I have a lot of friends who are conventional anglers, and they'll tell me a lot of stuff. They may be not.May not be going after the species that I'm going after, but they'll see them. They'll be like, oh, yeah, that bay over there is loaded with carb.Okay, great, you know, Or I've seen a lot of bowfin and X, Y or Z, and I'll go check it out. And that can be really helpful, you know. But the. The different parts of the lake are dramatically different, too.Like the broad lake that I'm near here, I'm in Charlotte, Vermont, and the broad. This is a section of the lake we call the Broad Lake. The Broad lake is, you know, big and deep. You get down to the.To the southern end of the lake in Orwell and the Whitehall area down there. It's kind of like more like a big muddy river. So it's incredibly different environment. Yeah, it's radically different than streams and rivers.

Marvin Cash 00:32:56

Yeah, very, very interesting. And so, you know, you've got this incredibly, you know, diverse lake with all these different species.Tell me a little bit about how you, you know, map that to various angling experiences at Masterclass Angling.

Drew Price 00:33:11

Well, you know, a lot of it is depending on, you know, what. What somebody wants to do or. Or the time of the year. You know, I'll get people who reach out to me, and they'll be like, hey, are.Are you guiding right now? And. And, you know, if. If.If the lake is open and I can get my boat out there, you know, generally the answer is yes, as long as the weather is conducive to get out there, you know, and lake trout are a great option in the early season. But, you know, sometimes people will come to me and they'll be like, I really want to catch a bowfin or I really want to catch a gar.And I'm like, great, let's. Let's do it and get out and teach them the techniques that they need to be able to catch those. But, you know, a lot of it is. It. I.I try to base it on, you know, not only the time of the year, but, you know, what people want to experience. And. And I'll be pretty upfront with people like, you know, here's what's. Here's what's going on right now. Or, you know, you want to catch pike.You know, this is. We're right in the middle. It's. It's August we're, this is not the time to be chasing pike.If you really want to come to see me and get into some pike, your best bet is to hit me up in late April or May into June, and then again in like October, November, even into December. That's when we have good chances at pike and some trophy fish.Some trophy pike during that, that time period, you know, I, I kind of, you know, I use the available resources for when they are coming to see me or I let them know, like, hey, you know, you want to get both in May through September is your best, best bet. So hit me up during those, that time period, you know.

Marvin Cash 00:35:08

Yeah, it's, it's neat too, right? Cause I mean, you know, from looking at your website and doing research for the interview, I mean, you've got, do you want to wade?Do you want to sight fish? Do you want to fish from the boat? It sounds like you kind of offer it all.

Drew Price 00:35:20

I, I really do. You know, I, I've, I offer muskie trips in, in muskie rivers in northern New York. I do walk and wait smallmouth trips.Like I said, I, I will do some trout trips here and there. I, I know some great trophy trout streams in Vermont and in northern New York.I've got, I've got some, you know, I spent a lot of time in, in, in northern New York. That's where I grew up.I offer landlocked salmon trips on Lake Champlain tributaries and Lake Metro, Magog tributaries, Clyde river, and you know, there's steelhead opportunities on both sides of the lake. You know, that. And that's all walk and wade.So there's, you know, I love having diversity like that at my fingertips, you know, and I've had people who, you know, I've got, I've got some clients lined up in April that want to do one day a walk away trout fishing and then they want to head out in the lake and see what they can get. I'm stoked for that. You know, I love those challenges.I love keeping things variable and really, you know, exploring the diversity of fishing opportunities that we have in Vermont and in northern New York, you know.

Marvin Cash 00:36:53

Yeah, it's neat too, right? Because I know you're particularly proud of your bowfin fishery and I was kind of curious, you know.Yeah, obviously you're fishing for all kinds of, you know, we'll just call them fly fishing exotics, but, you know, but what attracted you to start chasing bowfin on the fly?

Drew Price 00:37:10

Just to be blunt, they are the biggest badasses out there. They're really incredible fish. Like I, there is no other fish that I've encountered that will swim up to you and look you in the eyes.They are, they're very aggressive, they're very intelligent. They're a native species. They're basically unchanged for the past 300 million years.You know, they're not the same species in the fossil record, but if you look at a fossil record, when T. Rex is roaming the earth, a fossil bowfin from when T. Rex is roaming the earth, you can tell that it's a bowfin.And it looks almost exactly at the bowfin we got around here right now. It's pretty amazing. I mean they, the males in the springtime have incredible colors.Their fins get turquoise, they get an emerald green color on their sides. Their bellies kind of get this, this pumpkin yellow, orange.And their eye spot, they've got this orange eye spot that's almost glowing, it's so orange. And they get incredibly territorial and aggressive when they're defending their babies.I actually, I had one, I was in this backwater, I was in a flooded forest and we, we found this little male was 22 inches. I know because we ended up catching this thing.But it, it saw the nose of the boat come in and it literally jumped out of the water and bit the bow in this boat. And you know, like here's a 22 inch fish going after a 15 foot boat to defend its babies.You know there's, that is just really cool watching how they stock their prey, how they'll come in the dorsal fin.You know, it, it just this, it undulates and, and you can really tell a lot about how that fish is behaving and what it's thinking by what that, what that dorsal fin is doing and the way they do the smash and grab when they're, when they're in close because it's, it. Bowfin fishing is almost all sight fishing. It is, it's not particularly difficult fly fishing. It's really dapping or, or jigging with a fly rod.But you're hunting fish. I'm on the polling platform, I have my client in the front.And you're looking for these fish and, and, and if the fish, you know, bites the fly and gets off it, it's not gone. I've had them, I see this all the time.They'll, they'll grab the fly, they'll feel the hook, they'll shoot off, they'll turn around and they'll come in from a different angle to find out what that was. And you Get a second shot at them. I mean that really cool.I mean my, my very first bowfin guiding experience, I was in my canoe, we were going through this backwater and these lily pads and I hit a bowfin and the thing shot off and I washed it and turned around and came back and looked at the canoe to see what hit it. My client got a fly in front of it. It grabbed it. He's got it on and it circles around some lily stems, gets off. He gets to fly out of the lily stems.The fish comes back and he looks at the second time and it gets off a second time. Like what other fish does anything like that?You know, it's, they're really cool and, and the, they're very long lived and like I said, they're really smart.You know, I, I will splash the water and get them to come in because they're so curious and a lot of people around here think that, oh, you're splashing the water and the bowfin come in. They're really dumb. It's the opposite. They, they hear that splashing.They think something is wounded and they want to come in to see if they have an opportunity to eat something. That's, you know, that curiosity is, is intelligence. So these are an incredibly intelligent fish and more than willing to take a fly.But if you really keep hitting the same area again and again and again with the same flies and the same techniques, they pick up on it. They know what's going on. So you have to vary what you're doing, which to me keeps things more exciting.You know, I, I've, I've gone on record saying this before. I consider bowfin the most American game fish out there because they are so unchanged for so long. They're, they're incredible.And if you've never fished from both end, you really need to because it's a very, very cool fish to, to target.

Marvin Cash 00:42:34

Yeah, that's very neat.And so tell me a little bit about kind of like your rod reel line set up and then sounds like you got to kind of change the fly situation up because they kind of get dialed in, right?

Drew Price 00:42:45

They do, they do. So I, I've used a lot of different rods. Seven and eight weight tends to be the, this, the sweet spot. I like to use a stiffer rod.I think, you know, at this point the rod, my go to rod right now is, is the, the 8, 5, 7 weight helios. It's a short, stiff rod and it, and it really gets the job done very well.You can, you can cross that fish's eyes with the hook set line really isn't that important. Any, any floating line will do. The leader is very short. I usually just do a short, like maybe a foot of or so of like 20 pounds fluorocarbon.And then I will tie off 16 pound to that, about three foot piece of that. So you only have a like a four foot leader. You really don't need a very long leader.A long leader is actually detrimental to good presentation when, when you're, when you're doing the style of fishing that I do for these guys because you only have a couple inches of fly line out from your rod tip.You know, like I said, you're really dapping and, and to properly present that fly and to be able to get a good hook set you actually have to have the rod pretty much perpendicular to the water, parallel to the water.You want to have that rod parallel or parallel to the water because you're going to set the hook kind of keeping the rod flat and parallel to the water. So you kind of got this, this upward stroke. You don't want to set back with your wrist.And when you sit back with your wrist it's a lot like trying to set a hook into a concrete block. And I've had three rods that have broken right in front of the grip because of just, you know, the way you're setting the hook like that.As far as flies, I have kind of a number of my own patterns that I use for them. They're, they're for the most part fairly heavily weighted. They're kind of really buggy, buggerish flies. I've got one I call the Mr.Beauregard and I got another one I call Mr. Bo Squiggles. I've also had very good luck with crayfish patterns.Changer craws are fantastic certain times of the year when they get really, when the boat can get really finicky in mid summer. I find that the, the, the changer cross can be more difficult to get a hook set with.At that point you really, you really want to have a good, you want to get, you have your better opportunities with the changer cross earlier in the season when they're really a lot more aggressive with their, with their takes. But they will, they will take carp flies they'll take, they'll take almost anything to be very honest with you.But if you've got the wrong hook, it gives the fishing advantage when you're fishing with bow. Fishing for bowfin, a short shank heavy wire hook is much more effective. In getting a hook set than a laundry shank hook.And if you have a longer shank hook and you're playing those fish, that, that hook acts more as a lever and their mouth is just almost all bone and teeth. And if you have any kind of lever like that and the way these guys fight, they, they thrash around a lot.A longer shank hook will work itself out a lot easier than the, the short shank hooks. So it's, it's, it's a lot of fun. I try to keep the, the fight pretty short and sweet, you know, using really stout leader.When, when somebody hooks into one of these things, I, I come flying down from the, the, the pulling platform and grab a net and scoop them up as fast as I can because if they get into the weeds, they will break you off. I carry a lot of, I carry a lot of bowfin flies because there are a lot of break offs.

Marvin Cash 00:47:12

Yeah. So it's not exactly the no changer left behind mentality.

Drew Price 00:47:17

No, no. I mean, you know, it's, it sucks to lose a changer to these guys, but that, you know, that's kind of part of the process. Right.You know, it's, it does happen from time to time.One thing that I, I will say and, and I've heard people, you know, say that when you're fishing bowfin, you got to use a, you got to use a wire leader. And nothing is further from the truth. Yes, they do have a mouthful of teeth and you do not want to get your, your fingers in there.They will shred you. However, their teeth are conical teeth similar to like what a walleye has. They're not cutting teeth like a pike or a snakehead.So you don't necessarily have to have wire. Well, you don't need wire. And actually I think wire is, doesn't allow you to give as good a presentation as you will with just fluorocarbon.So, you know, wire is not necessary for their type of teeth.

Marvin Cash 00:48:18

Got it. And so, you know, Drew, what's a day like, you know, either waiting or on the boat with you?

Drew Price 00:48:25

Well, you know, it really depends on what time of the year it is. You know, with lake trout in the fall, it could start at 3am going out and chasing them for dawn hours using glow in the dark flies in my boat.You know, it's, I'm really trying to help people dial in their, their cast and presentation to the fish that we are fishing for. I also like to make sure that, I like to, I like to educate people about where they're at.You know, Lake Champlain, not only is it an amazing place for, for fishing, but it's, it's, it's an incredible place for, for U.S. history. You know, we're. When I launch at Otter Creek, we go right by the very spot where basically The War of 1812 was won.And most, you know, we got tens of thousands of people who go by that every, every summer and have no idea that, you know, a one hour gun battle right there is what changed the course of the war.So that's, that's pretty cool to be able to share that with people and also explain, you know, the natural history of the fish that we're going after or other animals that we see. You know, it's a really neat place and I love sharing my home with other people. I also like to have like plenty of good snacks.I work for a small business that has some amazing sweets. Anytime anybody is going out with me. I have these maple pecan bars which everybody seems to just think is the cast Meow. And they're really good.They're incredibly addictive, which can be detrimental to my waistline at times. But you know, it's, it's sharing this incredible, the incredible resource that's right here between New York and Vermont.You know, this, this lake is, is. I love sharing this lake with people because it is just, it's such a great place.

Marvin Cash 00:51:02

Very, very neat. And rumor has it that you, you might have a book in the works.

Drew Price 00:51:08

I do. I will have a book coming out from Stackpole in September called Favorite Fries for Vermont where you will see some of the offerings that I have.But it's also kind of going to go through some historic flies, but also flies from, from folks like Tom Rosenbauer and a lot of other guides and, and anglers throughout the state. Mostly trout flies, but there's a lot of other good stuff in there.And you'll see some of my, my, my bowfin flies and gar flies and it, it'll be, it'll be pretty neat to, to see my first book being published.

Marvin Cash 00:51:51

Yeah, we'll have to bring you back. As we talked about before we started recording, you can't do justice to the God experience.And then the whole trauma of writing a book deserves its own entire interview.

Drew Price 00:52:07

You got that right.

Marvin Cash 00:52:10

You got that right. Yeah. So I know the bucket that you fall into because there are kind of two flavors of ice cream there. They're the people that love writing the books.And then there are people that are like, they did it once. It almost killed them. And they Never want to do it again.

Drew Price 00:52:23

Well, I, I would like the opportunity to do it again. I got, I, I've got some other, some other ideas floating around, but we'll see what happens with this first one.

Marvin Cash 00:52:33

Very, very neat. And so, you know, before I let you go this evening, Drew, is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners?

Drew Price 00:52:39

You know, just, you know, come up and visit, Visit Vermont and check out Lake Champlain. It's, it's, it's a really cool place. And, uh, you'll really enjoy yourself.

Marvin Cash 00:52:53

Yeah. And so, you know, for, like. So I'm down in Charlotte, North Carolina.If you're not kind of within a reasonable drive distance of your neck of the woods, kind of, what's the, what's the best way to get up there?

Drew Price 00:53:05

There's a, there's an international airport in Burlington. That's, that's really your best bet. We're, you know, it's, it's about a four and a half, five hour drive from New York City.We're about three and a half hours away from Boston, hour and a half from Montreal. So it's, it's, it's not really too far from a lot of stuff, but it's just far enough away to, to make it a little challenging to get here.But there's a lot of, A lot of great accommodations. There's a lot of things for families to do here. You know, Burlington is a wonderful city. We have great food culture here.If you like beer, you've really, you know, you can't go wrong with Vermont beer. It's a cool place. And fall foliage in Vermont can't be beat.

Marvin Cash 00:53:56

Yeah. And I've never found bad beer. So there you go. Right?

Drew Price 00:54:00

No, well, there you go. I mean, well, you know, we got helmet, Heady Topper, and there's a lot of other really good beers around, too.So, you know, we, we definitely pride ourselves on, on the microbrews here.

Marvin Cash 00:54:14

Yeah. And so, you know, if, if folks want to learn more about Masterclass Angling, you know, book a trip with you. Follow your adventures on the water.You know, where should they go?

Drew Price 00:54:25

Masterclassangling.com is my landing page. But also I'm on Instagram at Masterclass Angling. All one word and.Yeah, give me a follow and check out the adventures that I get into and that I get other people into.

Marvin Cash 00:54:41

Yeah, very, very cool. I will drop all that stuff in the show notes.

Drew Price 00:54:46

Fantastic.

Marvin Cash 00:54:47

Well, Drew, I really appreciate you spending some time with me this evening. And, you know, maybe around the 4th of July, we I'll reach out again and we'll get you on the calendar to do a full blown interview on your new book.

Drew Price 00:54:59

Thanks a million, Marvin. I'm looking forward to getting you on the water sometime as well.

Marvin Cash 00:55:04

Absolutely. Take care. Well folks, we hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you.Don't forget to check out the links to all this episode's sponsors in the show notes. Tight lines, everybody.