S7, Ep 54: Chasing Smallmouth: Topwater Tactics for Summer Success with Jake Villwock

In this episode, host Marvin Cash welcomes Jake Villwock of Relentless Fly Fishing to discuss topwater smallmouth tactics for summer success. Jake shares expert tips on fly selection, frog fishing techniques, gear, and presentation strategies for targeting smallmouth bass in Pennsylvania and beyond. Whether you’re a seasoned angler or new to fly fishing, you’ll find actionable advice to improve your summer bass fishing results.

Marvin Cash00:00:04

Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly. On this episode, Jake Villwock of Relentless Fly Fishing in Pennsylvania returns to the podcast.As we head into the heat of summer, we thought it'd be a good idea to bring Jake back to talk about topwater smallmouth. Jake shares his tips and tricks and updates us on his latest book project.I think you're really going to enjoy this one, but before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcaster of your choice.It really helps us out and we're already preparing for 2026 and we would like to hear from you if you're willing to have a short conversation with me about what you like and what we can do better at the Articulate Flyer, the butcher shop, shoot me an email or DM me on social media. All of our links are in the show notes. And finally, a shout out to our sponsor.Trout Routes we all know streams are getting crowded, and chances are you're not the only one at your local access point. Get away from the crowds and busy gravel lots by using Trout Routes Pro.With over 350,000 access points mapped across 50,000 trout streams and much more, Trout Routes has all the data you need to help you find angling opportunities that others will overlook. Up your game and download the app today.Use code ArtFly20 ArtFly20 all one word for 20% off of your Trout Routes Pro membership at maps.troutroutes.com now on to our interview. Well, Jake, welcome back to the Articulate Fly.

Jake Villwock00:01:36

It's so good to be here.

Marvin Cash00:01:39

There you go. I feel bad for you that you got a ton of rain last night.You're going to probably sounds like you're going to be off the water for probably four or five days, right?

Jake Villwock00:01:48

@ least. Yeah, I'm going to.I might try to see if some of the smaller creeks clear out by Thursday or Friday, but definitely not going out tomorrow, that's for sure.

Marvin Cash00:01:57

There you go. Well, you can beat the weekend Costco rush, I think. I think the last time I saw you was in Lancaster at the Lancaster show.Putting aside I know you've had a fair amount of rain, but how's your spring smallmouth season been?

Jake Villwock00:02:10

It's been really good. It's been a little strange.We had some like super warm, warm weather in March, and then about the time the bass started migrating, it got really cold. And so for like the first two and a half to three weeks, it was, it was, you know, in the 40s every day, 30s at night.And there was like a period probably around the 14th or 15th of of April that within three days the water temps went from 48 to 62. And so we had a really early spawn and then we kind of got low water. So it was, you know, not. There wasn't a lot of fresh fish coming in.Like we normally get three, four, five different waves of fish. And.And so then towards the end of, well, actually beginning of May, we got blown out and I thought all those fish were going to disappear because there was no new fish coming in. And I had heard reports from some guys that said the fish are spawning on some of the bigger rivers because they weren't coming up.And you know, honestly, after that water went down, I told my one client, I said, you know, we might just be catching little fish. I don't know what's in here. And it was just bonkers for the next two weeks. So we got a fresh push of fish that came in.I was on the water last Friday and we had fish still on beds on some of the creeks. So there was, there's been a. Another wave of fish that came in the last couple weeks too. So it's, it's.It's been a, an interesting, an interesting year for sure. But this is the first time that I've been able to fish the smaller creeks into the middle of June in probably six years. So it's been. Been all right.

Marvin Cash00:03:55

Yeah, that's pretty neat.So I guess you're a little bit different than maybe the Midwest or kind of down where I am that you have, you know, like the Susquehanna is huge, right. So you've got a lot of tributary. So you actually have maybe some more kind of small water options than we have down here in the mid Atlantic.

Jake Villwock00:04:11

Yeah, I mean in our, our spring season, basically mid March until at least this year mid June, we're pretty much fishing. Most of us are pretty much fishing all the smaller creeks. And I'll be honest, it's. It's so much fun.If I could fish the small creeks all year long, I would, but you know, they are, you know, very rain in rain influence. So you know, they get pretty unflowable by, by July. So we're back to the big water.But yeah, it's a, it's a different fishery than some of the western stuff that I've done or the Midwest stuff that I've done where, you know, you're kind of Changing locations as the season progresses, which is kind of fun. It gives you a different, you know, view of scenery throughout the year. So.

Marvin Cash00:04:56

Yeah, it keeps you from getting on a first name basis with people at takeouts that are doing things they shouldn't do at boat ramps.

Jake Villwock00:05:01

Right, exactly. Yeah. I mean we have, we have about seven different tributaries that we float.So one really neat thing that, that happens down here is at least in the past, this year was a little weird. But a lot of times in the southern end of, you know, the fish of the system, we've got fish that spawn, you know, towards the end of.Typically towards the end of April. And then some of the northern creeks, the fish are just starting to come in.So we have the ability to fish for three and a half months basically over fresh fish or falling back fish.And we never have to worry about fishing over the spawn because we've got so many different creeks that are different, you know, water temperatures and levels and stuff. So it's a pretty, it's a pretty unique, you know, fishery for sure.And if you're willing to drive, you can, you know, drive two hours to get to some of these creeks. And you know, typically the further you are from Harrisburg, the less people you're going to see. So me personally, I'm. I like making that drive.Even though at the end of the day it kind of wears on you. But you know, it's part of, part of the gig.

Marvin Cash00:06:06

Yeah, there you go. And so it's interesting because I know that like the funky spring weather we had, it is kind of.You made the periodical cicada hatch kind of atypical this year. But I do know that they're kind of firing up in your part of the world and.But I know there's also, you know, some small mouth guys don't really care about the periodicals and it's really a carp guy thing, you know, kind of. Where do you come down on that, man?

Jake Villwock00:06:29

I'll. Anything that'll get a bass to rise, I'll. I'll take it. We don't have. So we had our periodicals down in kind of the Harrisburg area three years ago.Two, two or three years ago. And unfortunately the entire time the water was blown out.But, but where the state college areas got them pretty heavy and the, the upper end of the juniata is going to have them. I'm actually, you know, if there were bass on them, I'd be all about it.But I'm actually getting ready to take my flats boat up to state College and fish a Couple of lakes up there on the flats for, for carp and largemouth. But yeah, so, I mean, if we had them in the bass horizon, I'd be all about it.I mean, we, I definitely tried to follow it really closely when it was closer to us and on the majority of the juniata. But we are blessed that, you know, we have a three year difference between the State College 17 year hatch and the Cumberland Valley 17 year hatch.So it's kind of neat that you get, you know, you don't have to wait a full 17 years to fish them.

Marvin Cash00:07:32

Yeah. And so I guess, you know, would you rather, you know, when the cicadas are out, would you rather chase carp or would you rather chase bass?

Jake Villwock00:07:41

Oh, that's a, that's a tough question. Definitely bass, for sure. Definitely bass.However, carp would be a very close second because, you know, the carp where we are, especially on the bigger rivers, are super hard to catch in the summertime. They're very weary. And if you're trying to do it in a boat, it's almost impossible.So whenever we get a chance where it's quote unquote easier, you know, I jump on that and, you know, I spend a little bit of time down in Florida chasing redfish.So this is a good, you know, kind of substitute for that up here and just kind of running around and fishing some of the flats and the edges of water. And so, yeah, that's for sure. Car. Very close second.

Marvin Cash00:08:24

There you go.And so, you know, we're recording here almost in the middle of June, which is kind of, you know, the jumping off place kind of in our part of the world for kind of the thick of, you know, summer fishing. And that means top water for smallmouth. And, you know, we'll get to the bug stuff in a minute.But I also know that you, that you like to fish top water frogs for smallmouth. When's the best time to chase smallmouth with a frog?

Jake Villwock00:08:47

Right now.Honestly, one of the things that I started talking about recently in some of my presentations is that May and June are two of the best frog months when it comes to fishing for smallmouth. I know the guys in the Midwest do it a lot because there's frogs up there pretty regularly.But one thing that's super interesting about, you know, our ecosystem is that the frogs and the toads are mating at the same time that the smallmouth are migrating to spawn. So, you know, talking about matching the hatch in, you know, some way, the frogs are around and the bats are willing to eat them.So if you can get water temps in the, you know, low to mid-60s. You should. You can have absolute banner days on. On frogs this time of year. So it's also typically when the water flows are a little heavier.And now that the fishing pressure's gotten, you know, greater in the last 10 years, those bass don't react to frogs quite as well as they used to when the water gets low and clear.So when, you know, early season, May, June, July, early July, when the water's, you know, kind of typically on the higher level, those fish can tend to eat a little bit more aggressively on top. So you can get away with frogs.

Marvin Cash00:10:03

Uh, got it. And so how long does your frog hatch last?

Jake Villwock00:10:07

Uh, honestly, it's kind of interesting that the frogs kind of mate first and then the toad start. I'm not really sure if fish know the difference between a frog and a toad, but the toads are spawning right now, so I'd say two months.Two to two and a half months is the. The season we have for good frog fishing.

Marvin Cash00:10:25

And so is it.Is it something that, you know, I don't know, like, they're on them, like they'll be on cicadas, or is it something like you're fishing, you're like, well, let's see if we can get them on a frog today? I mean, kind of. How does that work?

Jake Villwock00:10:36

I think it directly relates to water temperature.So, you know, once you start to see, like I said, that water in that mid-60s range and the water, you know, levels or the clarity of the water is kind of that more, you know, as we call, like, a big fish green, where there's like two or three feet of visibility but not like, gin clear. I. I would say it's more of, like, you start to hear them, and then when the conditions are right, you start throwing them.And so, you know, the other thing is some of the creeks that we float in the springtime also have really great trout fisheries. Autumn on the upper ends of the creeks. And so they've got all the different mayflies and stuff.And so as soon as you start to see, you know, bass rising to mayflies, it's a great time to start fishing frogs because, you know, they've got it enough, you know, the water's warm enough that their metabolism and their energy levels up, you know, and they're willing to kind of start jumping on those. On those bugs or those frogs, so.

Marvin Cash00:11:36

Got it. And so what are your favorite frog flies?

Jake Villwock00:11:40

My favorite is honestly, the umpqua sling frog, the kind of Dave whitlock. And what's the other guy's name? Larry Delberg.So Larry Delberg and, and Dave Woodlock were kind of the first two to pioneer the, the slider style frog. And so, you know, for me, there's so many different bugs out there and there's so many different, you know, deer hair frogs.The thing that I like the most about the Umpqua swimming frog is how thin the head is. When you're throwing a bigger bug, it takes longer for that fish to get it in its mouth.And so when you've got some of those, you know, kind of more bulky headed flies, your hookup ratio goes down significantly. But those Umpqua swimming frogs seem to kind of get wedged in their mouth a lot easier. And then, you know, I get into some of the foam stuff.I do a lot of the double barrel poppers in chartreuse and yellow and just kind of high. A traditional popper with legs coming, our feathers coming off the back as legs. Those work really well.But honestly, we don't get a lot of opportunity to throw deer here. So whenever we're sprog fishing, I always have the uncle. Swimming frogs is my first go to.

Marvin Cash00:12:55

Got it. And so how do you like to present the frog?

Jake Villwock00:12:59

Oh, man, if I can throw it and I can present it super aggressively, that's what I want to do. Because, you know, frogs aren't actually that great of swimmers for like long distances.So like, you know, when you're fishing a frog and you throw directly, you know, inches off the bank and then you, you know, pop it. What? Well, let me back up.What I like to do is let it hit the water, let the rings dissipate, and a lot of times before you even get a chance to pop it once a fish is on it. But if, if the water conditions are right and they're a little bit higher, a little bit dirtier.I like to be pretty aggressive with the frogs, but definitely not as aggressive as we used to or as aggressive as some people do with like, large mouth where it's kind of a constant bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop. I like to pop it pretty hard and let it sit for two or three seconds. Pop it, let it sit for two or three seconds.Or if the water is a little lower, then I just like to pull it. I like to create the wake. But just like fishing a streamer, I think the pause is what gets those fish, you know, going. It's.And I can, I can probably tell you that 80% of the fish that we catch on frogs are during that time where frog's not moving. So. And it's a pretty aggressive eat because they're like, oh, when's it gonna move again? I gotta get it now. So. So that's how I do it.

Marvin Cash00:14:22

Yeah.It's interesting because I kind of think about, you know, like, watching frogs and they usually when they swim, it's kind of like, you know, they go under and kick and glide and come back up, right? And it's usually not. Not sustained.

Jake Villwock00:14:34

Right. And. And it's the same thing with mice. You know, we fish a lot of mice for bats, too. And, you know, mice are kind of the same. They. They create a wake.They don't create a lot of, you know, loud noise.So as long as you can create that disturbance and then just depending on what your flow is and what the clarity is, directly correlate that to the amount of noise that you make with the frog. And that's going to get you the most eats. And.But a lot of times when they're really on them, you literally just hit the water with the frog and you wait two seconds and you've got a fish on. So it's like sometimes you don't even get a chance to pop. And I say that about any type of top water.I might be jumping ahead here, but, like, the initial plop of the fly hitting the water is the most realistic sound of your entire presentation. So ride that out as long as you can, because that's what those fish are keen in on, is something hitting the water.Because no matter whether it's a cicada, a frog, a grasshopper, they're all going to hit the water and create some disturbance immediately. And then after that, it's kind of just imitating what, you know, what the rest of that bug or that forage food does, so.

Marvin Cash00:15:49

Got it. And so when you want to wake, are you slowly stripping the fly? Are you lifting the rod and kind of almost pulling the fly towards you?

Jake Villwock00:15:58

I do a little bit of both. I like to pull the fly because you're connected the entire time.You know, if you lift the rod and then drop it, you've got to kind of be on it to, you know, pick up that slack because, you know, a lot of times those fish eat it pretty aggressively.But the flip side of that is that, you know, just like a big brown trout eating a grasshopper out west, like, sometimes the longer you wait, the better chance you have to hook that fish. So a little bit of slack's not bad. But typically what I do and I tell most my clients to do is just kind of a 12 to 18 inch pull.You know, just like you're stripping a streamer and just pull it and let it sit. If we're on anchor, that's another kind of interesting way to do it.What I typically do is have the my either myself or one of my clients cast slightly upstream and then you're presenting that fly as a mend instead of a strip so you can get a longer parallel drift to the bank versus like stripping it off the bank further and further away. You can, you know, kind of cast it upstream, let it float from five or six, you know, feet, then throw another mend in it.A little men, not a big one, little men in it. That frog slides or pops a little bit, you pick up the slack and now you're running kind of like you said, parallel to the bank for longer.And that's a great way to do it too. So instead of actually stripping it in, you're mending it, picking up slack. Mending it, picking up the slack.

Marvin Cash00:17:25

Got it. And obviously you're fishing them on a floater, but kind of what's your preferred kind of rod, reel and line and leader setup.

Jake Villwock00:17:34

So in the last two years I've, I've really got into like the seven weights for that. You can definitely get away with throwing an 8 weight. You can throw a 6 weight but you know, frogs are kind of big.So I think the seven weight gives you the most control and it also lands on the water a little bit softer. So set 9 foot 7 weight is definitely my go to when it comes to frogs. I do like the scientific angler bass bug line for fish and frogs.That's what it was designed for. So you know you can get away with a, a seven weight line which is technically a nine weight. There be a grain weight for the line.So it's just turns that fly over a distance further. When I'm fishing frogs leader length, I'm typically in that kind of eight foot range, seven and a half to eight foot range.Because the bigger the bug, this is one of my kind of rules of thumbs or guidelines is the bigger the fly, the shorter the leader because you can't, you can't turn over a big streamer, you can't turn over a big frog with a 9, 10, 11 foot, 12 foot leader. So typically I like to stay in that 8 foot leader section or length for, for frogs.So 9 foot 7 weight scientific angler bass bug line and an 8 foot leader poundage wise for the tippet, anywhere from 12 to 20 pounds just depends on, you know, what the clarity is and things like that. So.

Marvin Cash00:19:01

Got it. And you got a favorite flavor rod.

Jake Villwock00:19:05

I love scott rods. That's pretty much all I fish now. The Scott centric 9 foot 7 weight in my opinion is one of the most fun bass rods or frog rods that you can have.It's, you know, it's definitely got a little bit softer of a tip to it, but it's got a really nice backbone to turn over those, turn over those bugs. So it's a great rod for that. But you know, any fast action rod is, is great. But scouts are definitely the only thing on my boat.

Marvin Cash00:19:37

Well, there you go. Well, before we get to bugs, you know, what other kind of non bug top water situations do you like to fish?

Jake Villwock00:19:44

Oh, non bug top water. So the, what the heck is that thing called?There's like that, that foam spook that's out there, that fish chase flies guy, I forget his name but he, he ties those things. So I'd like, I like to throw bait fish top water, especially in the fall.But I've gotten, I've gotten into, you know, kind of that spook kind of gliding glide bait, if you will, on top, which is super fun. But that's pretty much it.I mean if it's not, if it's not some sort of bug, the only other thing would be just, you know, if we don't see a lot going on, just throwing regular poppers, Google bugs and things like that.But you know, I, I typically try to imitate whatever is around and if I don't have a lot of stuff or you know, water temps are different, then I just stay subsurface and that'll be the end of it.

Marvin Cash00:20:46

So yeah, I guess. And so for kind of, let's just say the standard kind of non summer bug stuff, you know, do you, you know, do you prefer open face poppers, sliders?I mean, is there a kind of a preference there, any kind of colors or anything like that that you like, you know, one more than the other?

Jake Villwock00:21:02

I, I like the kind of more that open face deal. I don't do a lot of slider fishing personally, but if it's chartreuse or yellow, those are my two favorite colors.I mean, Google bugs have the solar flare which is that like yellowy chartreuse and they have yellow fellow which is just straight yellow. Those are probably the two most popular prospecting bugs that I use. And those are, I think they come in A, a 4, 6 and an 8.I really like the sixes, the mid, the mid sized one, they're, they're easy to cast, they create enough disturbance and they're super, super easy for those fish to get in their mouth. So when you talk about hookup ratio, that kind of mid sized Google bug is definitely, you know, the, the king of that, if you will. King or queen.

Marvin Cash00:21:57

Yeah, there you go. And I would imagine right tackle's the same except if you have a smaller bug, you're using a longer leader.

Jake Villwock00:22:04

Yes, Yep, yep, exactly. So, you know, we get into that summertime situation.There's times where we're running 12 to 14 foot leaders which, you know, a lot of people don't like to do. But in my personal opinion, I love that kind of technical dry fly fishing, you know, where you've got to have a long leader.It's got to be, you know, presented properly and, you know, quietly but still within, you know, earshot of the fish. So, you know, and typically when we get to that level, we're starting to sight fish on, on top water. And that to me is the coolest thing ever. So.

Marvin Cash00:22:38

Yeah, and to kind of help manage frustration at the bow of the boat, you know, how far do you need people to be able to cast in the summertime? Because I know the fish get spooky, right.And so, you know, obviously longer can generally be better, but kind of what's a, you know, people are in the backyard practicing for a trip, what do they need to be able to do?

Jake Villwock00:22:55

I mean, minimum summertime 50ft. You know, it's, and to a lot of people, like that seems like a lot, but it's, it's really not. I mean, typical shooting heads on fly lines are 30ft.So if you think about, you know, basically casting a 10 foot leader plus the shooting head, you're already at 40, so an extra 10ft is not that far.And you know, you're throwing smaller bucks so you don't have to worry about, you know, a super heavy fly, you know, you know, falling too quickly or, you know, collapsing your cast and things like that. So, you know, I'd say 50ft. But you know, most people could probably already do that without even realizing they can do that.And so, you know, 60, 70 is never a bad thing. But then the further you get, then you run into the issue of, you know, when that fish eats, are you going to be able to set the hook on it?So, you know, I try to, I try to get them to within 50ft. That seems to be the sweet spot of just far enough for everything to work.

Marvin Cash00:23:56

Got it.And so, you know, kind of in your neck of the woods, when do you shift over to kind of what, you know, I would consider kind of traditional top water bug fishing for smallmouth.

Jake Villwock00:24:06

It, it depends on the, the flows, of course, but typically we're that last week of July, first week of August, you know, we start to get those lower flows, you know, those fish are starting to pattern. You know, different May flies, the annual cicadas are out. You know, we, we get a, a pretty good summer sulfur and kale hatch on, on our rivers.And on any given day, depending on flows, you can see fish, you know, bank to bank, sitting inches under the surface, patterning those bugs, which is super fun. We also get a bunch of bluing olives, which are typically really, really tiny in the summertime. But, you know, they're bass, they're not trout.So if you throw a smaller olive anything in front of them, they're going to eat it.So, you know, I'd say end of July, early August, and then we'll kind of run that until everything slows up, you know, in the middle to end of September. So.

Marvin Cash00:25:07

Got it.And so it sounds like, you know, I mean, I know we've got like dragonflies and we've got mayflies, you know, kind of in Virginia and the Carolinas, but sounds like you've got, you know, a whole kind of top water level of action that has nothing to do with fishing. Cork bugs.

Jake Villwock00:25:22

Yes, absolutely. We, we fish a lot of foam in the summertime.And you know, again, when we get into those kind of low summer flows, our fish start to act a lot like spring creek trout. So, you know, cork, as much as I love cork, it hits the water pretty hard no matter how good you are and how delicate you drop it.So, you know, fishing foam is really, really important. And you know, we fish old Mr. Wigglies from the guys up in, in Wisconsin and tight lines.I've got a articulated damselfly that I tie now that's, you know, very similar in style of the wiggly, but, you know, different stone flies and grasshoppers and things like that. And, you know, it's. It's kind of fun.And, and the reason, one of the reasons I also switched to more of that foam bug stuff is because there's not an adult on this planet that if you put a popper on the end of their rod and tell them not to pop it, that they'll listen to you. So, you know, no Matter what happens, everybody wants to pop a popper. So I got this so frustrated in that that I was like, that's it.I'm cutting it off and you're getting something you can't pop no matter how hard you tried it. So that's why we kind of switched over to some of that more foam stuff.But foam is also, again, the smaller you get that's more slender you get on profile, the easier it is to get in a fish's mouth. So again, hookup ratio seems to go up, you know, even more once you get into that kind of slender foam bug.

Marvin Cash00:26:55

So interesting. So you don't fish, say for example, like some of the Chuck Kraft style kind of hard, hard cork bugs.

Jake Villwock00:27:02

I do, I do that typically earlier in the season. So July would be kind of the time frame that I fish that. I love the Excalibur. I have some of his damsel flies. Those, those do work.But you know, those Excaliburs are pretty heavy.So the only time, you know, kind of dead summer, August, September, that I'll fish those is when we're kind of fishing banks that have, you know, pretty low hanging trees where, you know, it's not uncommon to see bigger bugs like cicadas fall out of them because when they hit the water, it's a pretty big flop. I mean we were, we were fishing State College on Friday. I guess the last time I bass fish was Thursday. Friday we went trout fishing.We went up and fishing cicadas on, on one of the Spring Creek or one of the creeks up in State College.And we were throwing the cicadas in the water and even just us throwing them them kind of fluttering down, you know, 20ft, they still hit the water pretty hard. So that's where Chuck Craft bugs really, really come, you know, come out I think is when those bigger bugs are around. So.

Marvin Cash00:28:13

Got it. So why don't you give me, I don't know, you know, 3, 4, 5, 6 of your kind of favorite top water flies for smallmouth.

Jake Villwock00:28:24

So one of mine is the Russ Madden Scorpio. I think that's how you say it. It's a kind of a foam bug with some rubber legs and some deer hair coming off the back.Tie it in a lot of different colors and kind of imitate, you know, anything. I know you be, if you're a fly tire, you can find that, you know, find the recipes for that. But it's also a Montana fly company pattern.So you can, you know, purchase that. The old Mr. Wiggly is probably my number one, you know, summertime bug when it comes to foam, the stream bank hopper is the western grasshopper.That's one of my favorite grasshopper patterns for the summer. And then my new articulated damselfly, that's, that's definitely one of my more favorite ones.But I'll be honest with you, I, that those are the like the main four that I fish.I don't go super deep in different patterns when it comes to like top water because I know that if they don't eat one of those four, there's not a lot of other stuff you can throw that you're going to get those fish to eat. They're either just not eating or you're not presenting it properly.So, you know, there's plenty of different grasshopper patterns out there and things like that. But, you know, those are my top four, so.

Marvin Cash00:29:39

Got it. So you're probably, you know, using your seven weight. Scott, have you changed your fly line and your leader approach drastically for those bugs?

Jake Villwock00:29:48

That is a great question and yes I do.So one thing you can do now, maybe a guide and having, you know, the ability to have different, you know, reels and spools and lines is, is, is kind of nice.But I tell a lot of people that if they can't, if they can't have multiple fly lines for top water to just buy bass bug or whatever bass bug line, they have one line weight lighter because technically it's still a line weight heavy.So, you know, for instance, if I was fishing the SA bass bug 7 weight for frogs on my 7 weight, in the summertime you could run a 6 weight bass bug on your 7 weight and that's still going to give you plenty of power to, you know, cast that fly at good distance. But it's not going to hit the water super hard.But my fly line of choice is the new SA Infinity plus, which is basically a line heavy, heavier 40 foot shooting head. So it's a little bit longer. So it's not great for short casts.But again, typically when you're running those lighter fly lines, you're trying to cast further. So the SA Infinity plus is my favorite summertime one.Still running seven weights occasionally, you know, if we're running super small stuff, I'll run a six weight.But seven weights seem to be, you know, pretty versatile when it comes to presenting something softly or still wanting to punch something big through the air. So it's the kind of jack of all trades, if you will, fly rods.

Marvin Cash00:31:28

Got it. So we now know that you yell at people that Pop poppers, right?

Jake Villwock00:31:32

I do, absolutely.

Marvin Cash00:31:34

And you take them away. But you've got a lot of different kind of dry flies, right?For lack of a better word, it seems like maybe some of them you animate and some of you don't you want to kind of walk through that for folks.

Jake Villwock00:31:47

I am a very strong proponent of the dead drifts.So I, I, what I typically do when I get into those smaller quote unquote drive lines is instead of popping it or stripping it, what I basically do is tell the client to lift their, lift their rod about six inches and that'll pull the fly or it'll just barely move it, depending on how far it is away. Just creating a little bit of a ripple around that, around that bug. Otherwise I'm leaving pretty flat.One thing I will say is that I'm convinced that there is what I, I've now dubbed the zone of interest around a small mouth. And it's about an eight foot circle from its gill plates to the front of its nose.And when you're dry fly fishing, casting that fly, whatever it is within that eight foot range is almost always going to get their attention. So I, I tell people, and you can tell exactly who's a traditional dry fly trout fisherman versus a bass angler.Because the trout fisherman is going to cast their wiggly or their grasshopper 30 or 40ft in front of that, that bass that's sitting just under the surface. They're going to mend it, mend it, mend it. Get this beautifully, you know, beautiful drag free drift down to that fly or down to that fish.And the fish is either going to completely ignore it or, or you're gonna, as the angler, when it gets close, try to pop it and you're gonna spook that fish.So I sell everybody, it's a hundred percent chance that fish is going to ignore your fly or get spooked if you try to, you know, lead that fish super far.But if you can drop that fish or drop that fly within an eight foot circle of the front of that fish, you're going to almost always get their attention. Whether or not they eat it or not. That's kind of up to you and the fish at that point.But you know, that like I said before, that plop is what gets their attention. That's the most natural sound of your presentation.Now once that fish comes up and starts looking at your fly, then you have to decide if that fish is interested in that bug. You know, is it looking at it? Because it's going to Eat it or is it looking at it because it wants to know if it's alive before it eats it?So that's when a little tiny twitch comes in where I'm just like, you know, lift your thumb an inch so that fly barely moves. And a lot of times that fish, immediately as that fly goes to move, will jump on and eat it.Or there are plenty of times where that movement spooks the fish. But if you put it in an eight foot circle in front of that fish, I guarantee you're going to get that vision's attention. So.

Marvin Cash00:34:21

Got it. And I would imagine you want to put it on kind of your side of the eight foot circle so you don't risk lining the fish or them seeing the line. Right?

Jake Villwock00:34:29

Yep, that is, that is true.You know, if you're on the far side of them by a foot or two, that's probably not that big of a deal just because, you know, the leader is not going to create that much disturbance.But, you know, I can't tell how many times I, I ask a client, like, you see that push over there 35ft and I like, yep, I'm like, all right, put that fly right in front of that fish and the, the fly line hits it in head, you know, and so there is plenty of times where you know that the cast isn't made properly. But as long as you get that fly quietly in front of that fish, they will come up and look at it.

Marvin Cash00:35:06

Got it. And so, you know, you're, you know, we were talking before we started recording, you're kind of, you know, headquartered south of Harrisburg.And you know, so, you know, kind of what you're talking about maybe not all of the kind of, you know, mayflies and things like that, but you know, generally, you know, the arcs of the smallmouth season are similar. They just kind of start and end at different times across the country.So, you know, if someone is listening to this and they're not in the PA area or they're down near me, or they're in the Midwest or, you know, maybe even down like in Tennessee. You know, what are your tips for, you know, helping them figure out kind of where they are kind of in the smallmouth season on their home waters.

Jake Villwock00:35:43

Best thing to do is, is, you know, always be checking water temperatures. You know, I feel like the majority of smallmouth seasons directly correlate with water temperatures.So, you know, whether or not you're in the Midwest, you know, they might, their spring might start a little bit later than us. You know, down in Tennessee, Virginia, you know, North Carolina, they might start a little earlier than us, just depending on what water temps are.So, you know, always pay attention to everything that you can, that you can look at. I mean, we have these super, you know, ridiculously smart computers in our hands at all times.So you can see, you know, what the weather's doing, what the flows are doing. And so I always just say water temperature. That's the short answer of it. And then just observe what else is going around.You know, start looking to see if you see bugs. Do you hear cicadas, you hear crickets and grasshoppers.You know, when you're walking through the grass to get the boat ramp, are there, you know, are there bugs jumping up just like, you know, out west when you're walking to a spring creek, are they kicking grasshoppers up like crazy? So just observe with what's going on around you and check water temps. Those are the two most important things.

Marvin Cash00:36:49

Yeah, and I guess, you know, not all USGS gauges have temperature, but a lot of them do.I do know that like TroutRoutes has a lot of the US I think though, actually they probably have all the USGS gauges and you can get temperature information there.

Jake Villwock00:37:02

Yep, you can do that. I always carry a thermometer with me. I've got one in the center console, my truck.So, you know, if I'm going out, see what's going on or, you know, if I'm getting ready to go fishing, the first thing I do is throw that thing in the water, you know, try to, I try to drop it to the bottom and check the bottom temperature.And sometimes, you know, for instance, like a lot of our boat ramps, there's, we have a lot of jet boats on our big rivers and so the, they blow out an eight foot deep hole right below the boat ramp. So you can throw, throw your thermometer in there attached to hopefully some string and see what it is at 8ft.And then you can throw it over, you know, foot, you know, over to the bank where it's a foot deep and see the difference in water temperature. But you know, so I think thermometers are a great thing to have. You know, I probably own like 12 of them because I always forget them.So I now have one in every single pack, bag, box, you know, crevice and crack that I can put them in. So I never don't have one.

Marvin Cash00:38:01

Yeah, it's interesting. So you don't do an infrared one. I know I've got one of the old fish pond ones. It's in like an aluminum case.

Jake Villwock00:38:08

Yeah, yeah, I've thought. I honestly, I've just never had one. I've always just bought the either Umpqua or Science of a Gangler or Orvis ones, the metal ones.And they tend to be pretty durable. I mean, I. So when I'm floating in my drift boat or my raft, a lot of times I'll throw it overboard.Three hours later I'll forget it was in the water and it's still completely fine just dragging on the bottom, you know, attached to a six foot piece of, you know, monofilament. So they're pretty durable. But if you can get a thermal one, that would be awesome. Does anybody still make those?

Marvin Cash00:38:45

You know, I don't know because I just, you know, I've got my old school one that works and so I just, you know, I don't, you know, I don't really troll the catalogs for the ones that look like a, you know, an infrared gun that you point at the water.

Jake Villwock00:38:59

Right.

Marvin Cash00:39:01

Um, but yeah, so, I mean, it's, it's interesting. Like. So for me with trout, I have mine on a carabiner that I actually like hooked to my laces on my waiting boots.

Jake Villwock00:39:09

Ah, perfect. Yep. That's a great idea.

Marvin Cash00:39:11

Yeah. So you've gotten rained out.I don't want to like, you know, give you PTSD or anything like that, but I also know you're working on another book, so maybe you have a few days to do book work. You want to share details with our listeners about what you're working on.

Jake Villwock00:39:27

Well, honestly, I'm done, so that's, that's good. But yeah, I just finished, finished my second book is part of a series. So Stackpole started the series, I think, I think four years ago.They did favorite flies books. And so there's favorite flies from Pennsylvania. There's a favorite flies for Colorado. And so it's going to be a series book.So I just wrote the favorite flies for smallmouth bass. So it's got 50 of what I would consider, you know, that my.Well, they're my favorite, but I would consider them the top 50 flies for smallmouth and you know, today's day and age. So they're not just mine. I've got some from the guys at Schultz Outfitters. I've got some from the guys at Tight Lines.I've got some from, you know, the guys down in Virginia. And so we. I've got a wide variety of, of flies to display for this book. But what's really neat about it is, you know, you write, you take.I took a picture of each fly. It's not a tutorial book. It's more of a. Here are the 50 flies, and, you know, who created them, why they created them, and then how to fish them.And so there's recipes for all of them. So there's, I think, 16 or 17 top water, 16 or 17 made columns.So bait fish or swim flies, and then the same for the bottom with crayfish and hellgramites and things like that. So it's. It was a smaller project than my first book, but it was. It was super fun and, you know, kind of awesome to be done with a second book. So.

Marvin Cash00:41:04

Yeah, there you go. Did. Didn't Naguski do the trout fly one for Pa?

Jake Villwock00:41:09

Yep, yep. Nagaski did the child fly Favorite flies for Pennsylvania.I actually had his book sitting on my table the entire time I was writing it just to make sure I was doing it right. Like, looking at how he.How he did the recipes for each one and how many, you know, flies he added, you know, different pictures and things like that, too. And actually, speaking of Naguski, I used his camera and his studio to take all of the photos of the flies. So that was pretty fun.

Marvin Cash00:41:37

Yeah, that's a. We could do an entire interview on the nightmare of macro photography for flies for books. Right.

Jake Villwock00:41:44

You know what the worst part was, was, like, you know, you use these, like, little pieces of shale or something like that, and you. You make them wet so that they kind of glisten a little bit, and you take this awesome picture of this fly.It's all in focus, and then you blow it up on the computer, and you're like, there's three dry spots in it, so you kind of go back through and retake it again. So. But yeah, it was, you know, I.I learned a lot because he's got all the stuff, the little, like, light reflectors and the, you know, big hood with the. The flash on it and all that stuff. And so, yeah, macro, macro photography is. Is kind of a pain.But my flies, being bass, are a little bit bigger than, you know, trout flies, so they weren't quite as bad as, you know, time or taking photos of size 16, you know, stone flies or nymphs or whatever.

Marvin Cash00:42:34

Yeah.And you weren't developing film, which would have made it even worse because you would have had to wait three weeks to realize you'd screwed up the shot.

Jake Villwock00:42:41

Exactly. I did. I did make the mistake, though, of taking all the photos and then going home. I live about 30 minutes from Eric.And so I went home, put, put them on the computer and I had to make a list of all the flies I had to re photograph and went back two days later, did it all over again. So it was kind of a pain, but, but again super fun. And actually because I was writing that book, I tied some flies that I hadn't tied yet.Such as like Schultz's the Woodsman and the Leggy Boy.I hadn't really tied those flies before and you know, I kind of had to get really good at it to make them, you know, photo worthy and ended up fishing them a lot in the spring and they were just as effective as those guys said they were. So that's good. Yeah.

Marvin Cash00:43:26

And I would imagine too, right. If you're done with the book, that probably means it'll be ready to launch kind of for the holiday season and show season in 2026, right?

Jake Villwock00:43:36

Yep, yep. As far as I know, it should be, it should be out right around the Edison show.I was, they were thinking they might be able to have it done by, you know, the holidays, Christmas time. But this is actually from what I was told and this just could be because I was a little late on sending it in.But they're pretty busy on books this year. So I think it'll be beginning of 26 is when that, when that book will come out.

Marvin Cash00:44:02

So yeah, very cool. Any other projects you want to share with our listeners?

Jake Villwock00:44:07

I don't really have anything else going on right now. Well, I guess the only other thing I will say is that that's not true. I have a huge project.I just signed a contract with Montana Fly Company so they are taking all of my bass flies. So they're going to do a Jake Billow signature launch next year. It's gonna have nine or 10 patterns.As I'm tying flies for samples right now, once they, once they officially picked which ones they wanted, now I'm tying the samples for them and tying samples of flies to send to somebody in the middle of guide season is quite painful because you spend all this time tying flies and you can't put them in your box. But I keep coming up with a couple new flies as I'm doing this and I'm like, hey, what do you think of this one?They're like, yeah, send me a sample of that too. So as of right now, they've got nine, but they may have, they may have up to 11 when the actual launch happens next year.So that'll be pretty exciting.

Marvin Cash00:45:08

It's pretty Neat. I mean, gosh, those guys are, they're really kind of taking over kind of the streamer space and fly fishing 100%.

Jake Villwock00:45:16

And you know what? I, I, I had a contract with fully Mills Slash Orbis for a long time, and that kind of contract expired.And it was just like the perfect storm and timing for me.Montana fly reached out to me, but I, they sent me some flies from a couple different tires to, to photograph for the book, and I honestly could not tie that fly better myself. So, you know, the quality of streamer tying is amazing. And the way they package them, they don't get all smashed and stuff.And so the quality control of MFC is, is pretty, pretty phenomenal. So I'm, I'm really excited to work with them and it'll be nice to finally have, you know what?I would consider some of the, you know, more modern bass bugs available for people to purchase. Because not every Thai, every fly fisherman, or should I say fly angler, ties flies. So, you know, when I'm people like, oh, do you sell your roamer?Do you sell your crayfish? I'm like, no, but you know, maybe somebody else could time for you and you know, so it'll be nice to be like, no, I don't.But you know, they Montana fly ties as well as I do, so go buy them from them. So it's pretty cool.

Marvin Cash00:46:30

Yeah. Plus, I mean, these ties are involved, Right. So even if you tie, you may not want to tie that. Right?

Jake Villwock00:46:36

Yeah. And you know, I, I know that like when Covid hit and we weren't allowed to guide, I spent the entire month of April.I threw the Roamer and a couple other bath bugs back up on my website purchase and expected to get a few orders.And within 48 hours, I had 36 orders and I was tying flies for eight hours a day during COVID And I just kind of realized that I never wanted to tie commercially again. And I also charged more because I didn't want to do it and people didn't have any issues paying, paying it because they wanted to fly.So at this point, I can't tie commercially because any fly that I tie besides these samples has to go in my fly box because I don't, you know, I don't have. Well, right now I have plenty of time because the river's blown out.But unfortunately for me, I have a full box of flies, so I don't even get to tie flies. But yeah, so any, any bug that I tie has to go in my box. It's Too valuable for my job.

Marvin Cash00:47:37

Yeah, there you go. And I will.We haven't talked really about your kind of relentless and everything you do there, but I will drop a link to our original interview in the show notes for this one.But, you know, you know, before you go tonight, you want to let folks know, like you told me before we started recording that you picked up State College. So you now are running all the guides at tco.You want to kind of give folks kind of, you know, the locations and you're more than just, you know, smallmouth.You're doing trout and other stuff too, kind of all that kind of good stuff and how they can reach out and get on the water with you or one of your guides.

Jake Villwock00:48:09

Yeah, so we do, we do the trout stuff. So we've got. TCO has five locations, one in Bryn Mawr, one in Reading, State College, Boiling Springs, and the most recent one is up in Muncie.Muncie, Pennsylvania. So kind of Northern Pennsylvania, Pine Creek, West Bench, Susquehanna. So, you know, we.One of the beauties of what we have is we have guides that are really good in each one of those locations. So we're not like a centrally located outfitter that just kind of goes here, goes there.And so we have, you know, trout guides, we have steelhead guides, we have smallmouth guides, we have muskie guides. And so we do it all in Pennsylvania.And then the one other thing that we've got that's kind of neat is I have a guide that spends three months in, in North Carolina every fall, but chasing false albacore and amberjack. So we also actually have a saltwater guide that works for us as well, which is kind of nice.So, you know, if you want to do some saltwater, we've got you covered. If you want to trout fish, bass fish, or really any freshwater, you know, game fish in Pennsylvania, or we can do that.We also have two licensed guides in New York, so they do the same in river and for steelhead and West Branch of the Delaware, Neil Sunday is my head guide. He's actually up on the West Branch of Delaware right now for the next three weeks guiding. So it's kind of a. We kind of do it all.And then most recently, we just started working with Bear harbor, which is an online booking company.And so you can go to relentlessflyfishing.com and you can pick your location, pick your day, and then pick your guide and book everything online right there to get a confirmation email, you get a pre trip packet. So we've made it pretty seamless. The book stuff.But if you also have questions, you can send myself an email@relentless spy fishingmail.com or you can give any one of the TCO shop phone call and we've got somebody there at each location that can help you figure out what you want to do, so.

Marvin Cash00:50:12

Well, it sounds, sounds pretty slick. Well, I appreciate you taking some time out of your rained out day to hang out with me and talk about the top water smallmouth bass.But before I let you go, you want to let folks know the best way to get in touch with you and follow your adventures, I guess, you know, on the water, at the vice and at the word processor.

Jake Villwock00:50:33

Yeah, I mean, most of my stuff's on Instagram, so Relentless Fly Fishing is, is our, is our page.You know, we've got a website, Relentless Fly Fishing.com that's got a blog that we update about two to three times a month with different fishing, you know, techniques, different tying videos, things like that. Also have a, a YouTube channel, which is relentless TV getting ready to drop a new cicada tying video.So I've got a cicada from two or three years ago when we had them right here. But while tying some cicadas the other day, I kind of came up with a new pattern. So that'll be out.So Instagram, YouTube website, those are the main three.And then, you know, keep your eye out later in the season for the show scan schedule to come out for the fly fishing shows because I'll be doing a bunch of those as well, so.

Marvin Cash00:51:22

And I'll drop links to all that stuff in the show notes. And Jake, I'm sorry you're going to be off the water for a few days, but I appreciate you spending some time with me this evening.

Jake Villwock00:51:31

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's part of, part of this being a fishing guide. Some you, some days you get them, some days you don't.

Marvin Cash00:51:37

Yeah, well, hopefully our paths will cross before, before Edison next year.

Jake Villwock00:51:42

Yep. I, I think we should go fishing sometime soon.

Marvin Cash00:51:44

There you go. Take care. Well, folks, we hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you.Don't forget to check out the links to all of this episode's sponsors in the show notes. Tight lines, everybody.