S7, Ep 66: Tales of a Fly Fishing Legend: Remembering Dave Whitlock

EPISODE SUMMARY

Guest: Henry Cowen - Striper Specialist and Author at Henry Cowen Fly Fishing (Georgia) and Allen Rupp - Legacy Tier and Dave Whitlock Student at Fly on the Water (New York)

In this episode: Fly fishing legends Henry Cowen and Allen Rupp share intimate stories of their friendship with Dave Whitlock and his profound impact on their careers. Topics include Dave's perfectionist approach to fly tying, his handwritten correspondence tradition and his influence on making unpopular species like carp and bass "cool" decades before social media.

Key fishing techniques covered:

• NearNuff Crayfish tying and fishing methods
• Sheep Shad patterns for multiple species
• Strike indicator innovation (Dave's original creation)
• Freshwater striper tactics and seasonal patterns
• Air Jet Minnow presentation techniques

Location focus: Lake Lanier (Georgia), Oklahoma waters, Birmingham Alabama bass fisheries, Pennsylvania smallmouth rivers

Target species: Freshwater striped bass, smallmouth bass, largemouth bass, spotted bass, carp, bluegill

Equipment discussed: Dave's original fly patterns, NearNuff series, Vortex Diver, Kreelex topwater patterns, clear tip intermediate lines, handwritten fly tying instructions

Key questions answered:

• How did Dave Whitlock influence modern fly fishing?
• What made Dave's fly tying approach unique?
• How to preserve and learn classic fly patterns?

Best for: Intermediate to advanced anglers interested in fly fishing history, bass fishing techniques and the mentorship traditions that shaped modern fly fishing

Marvin Cash00:00:04

Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly.On this episode, I'm joined by Henry Cowen and Allen Rupp as they share stories of their friendship with Dave Whitlock and his impact on their fly fishing careers. Dave and Henry shared a common bond over sodium free stripers And Dave wrote the forward to and illustrated Henry's book.And before he passed, Dave selected Allen to be his legacy tire and spent many hours teaching Allen his techniques and flies. Alan's committed to preserving Dave's legacy through teaching and writing.I think you're really going to enjoy this one, but before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating review in the podcatcher of your choice.It really helps us out and a shout out to our sponsor, Trout Routes. I've known the team at trout routes almost before there was a team at trout routes.We all know streams are getting crowded and chances are you're not the only one at your local access point. Get away from the crowds and busy gravel lots by using Trout Routes Pro.With over 350,000 access points mapped across 50,000 trout streams and much more, Trout Routes has all the data you need to help you find angling opportunities that others will overlook. Up your game and download the app today. Use code artfly20. Artfly20. All one word for 20% off of your Trout Routes Pro membership at Maps.Now, on to our interview. Well, Henry and Allen, welcome back to the Articulate Fly.

Allen Rupp00:01:33

Thank you.

Henry Cowen00:01:34

Thanks for having us on, Mr. Cash. I'm looking forward to this evening. We're going to talk about one of our favorite subjects.

Marvin Cash00:01:41

Yeah, it's kind of funny you say that. We're going to talk about, about Dave Whitlock.You know, I went back and looked doing research for, for this interview and we actually did that interview five years ago.

Henry Cowen00:01:51

Really?

Marvin Cash00:01:52

It's almost five years ago. It was October of 2020.

Henry Cowen00:01:56

Yeah, that was fine. I know Dave really enjoyed that.

Marvin Cash00:02:00

Yeah, it was fun to do. And you know, Henry, before we get going, you know, you've been out on the water. Tell us a little bit about how the striper bites.Been going on Lake Lanier for you?

Henry Cowen00:02:10

Well, there is none right now. You know, it's the water temp on our lake is, is hovering around 88 degrees and the stripers are all deep.So we don't, you know, I don't fish for stripers this time of year.We're actually, Marvin, we're Actually starting to see fish floating from the, from the live bait guides that are catching fish, putting them on the bow of the boat, on the deck, taking pictures with their customers and then by the time they get them back in the water the fish are all stressed out and can't go back down to the thermocline and survive. So the other day a guy posted about a dozen fish floating on top. You just can't picture stripers this time of year.You gotta just hook em and let em go. And quite frankly I don't even fish for em right now. I fish for, I'm fishing spotted bass on top water right now. And carp.

Marvin Cash00:03:03

Yeah, I was just getting ready to say and a little bit of carp and you know Alan, I suspect if I know you, you've had some fishing adventures you probably want to share with our listeners.

Allen Rupp00:03:12

Yeah, I was recently down in Georgia fishing with Rob Rogers from Deep South Outfitters and Tim Bar from Coosa River Fishing Company. We caught a bunch of spots, largemouth, red eyes, gills. Had a really good time down there.Most of them came on Dave's Vortex Diver, but I did get it a couple and one of the big ones came on a top water Creole X. So one of my, those are two of my favorite top waterflies.

Marvin Cash00:03:39

Yeah, I actually had a really good day fishing a top water Crew X with Matt Riley probably about a year ago now and, and tore them up. Absolutely.And you know, so you know, it'd be interesting, I thought, you know, if each of you could share kind of like how you met Dave and a little bit about your relationship with him. And I thought Henry, you know, why don't you go first.

Henry Cowen00:03:58

Okay, well, you know, I met Dave. I don't remember even the exact date. It was something like 1876 or 1877.No, I met Dave back at one of the fly shows and I honestly can't remember if it was a, a Chuck Foreimski show prior to Ben taking over the fly fishing shows or whether it was a Mark Castello show down here in Atlanta that he used to do the Shallow water Fishing Expo. And I had met Dave at one of those shows, but it was definitely in the, in the early 2000, early to mid, you know, 2001 through 2006.And it was either in Edison, New Jersey or actually Somerset back then. It was either Somerset, New Jersey or it was, or it was here in Atlanta. I just can't remember.Him and Emily used to do the show circuit all the time and Dave would be selling his artwork and that, that's kind of how we, we met one another.

Marvin Cash00:05:05

Very, very neat. Alan, how about you?

Allen Rupp00:05:08

Well, I first, you know, met him. I don't know. It was at the Denver show when it was at the Denver Mart maybe nine or 10 years ago.And you know, my wife booked as a weekend fishing package. They would do these fly fishing schools at their house there in Oklahoma. And Lisa really took a liking to Emily in about.I think they made it to lunchtime on the first day, but they didn't bother to. Lisa stopped doing any of the classwork after lunch. The wine came out at lunch and her and Emily sat there and chatted for the rest of the day.And I had private lessons from Dave the rest of the time. So.

Henry Cowen00:05:53

That's a, that's a great story. That's a great story, Alan.

Allen Rupp00:05:57

Yeah, it was fun. He taught me a really cool cast that day about how to keep. Make sure your dry fly lands first. I just heard Chad Johnson talk about it on his podcast.Took. It took him about the same time it took you. Takes about an hour to learn it from Dave and he said it took him about an hour as well.

Marvin Cash00:06:15

Very, very neat.And you know, Alan, you, you met Dave kind of later in his life and it's kind of interesting because, you know, he's, he's kind of one of the OGs and you're a young guy, right? So I was just kind of curious, you know, as your.And I know you made of effort and we'll talk about this later, kind of about how he mentored you and kind of helped you launch your fly time business. But you know, tell me a little bit about what attracted you to Dave and his fly patterns.

Allen Rupp00:06:39

At first it was steer sheer fandom. You know, I was just, you know, it was Dave Whitlock. I, I have a, A book by Mark Sosin and you know, other, the.All these other old books that he illustrated, you know, that were like Basque, like true and true bass guys. He wrote a book with Bill Dance and he illustrated it, you know, and I, you know, and I just did a book, a post last week.He, I didn't even realize he illustrated Harry Murray's book on smallmouth bass. I had forgotten that. But you know, that's how it was. It was just fandom at start. At the start.But then what, what made me realize he was different besides just special, just different is he was never happy with his flies as they were. He was always trying to see if there was a way to make them better.One of the last flies or one of the flies he taught me was the near enough crayfish.And he had talked to me about wanting to me to add rubber legs to the flanks of the fly on the sides to try to see if we could get more color into it, a different sonic footprint, better action, different act. He just wanted to see if it would make it better. He had seen somebody else do rubber legs coming out the sides.He's like, let's see if we, what we do it. I. He had done it, showed me some sample. He's like, I'm fishing them. I'm, I'm. I like them, but I'm not sure they're any better. So.And we didn't get a chance to come to a conclusion on that because, you know, he passed. But it was, it was so interesting that he was never. The fly's done. It was never done.He was always trying to see if there was a way to make it better.

Marvin Cash00:08:20

Yeah, it's interesting you say that because it's kind of funny, Henry.It reminds me of the conversation we had either today or yesterday, you know, about kind of that generation of angler and just in people like, whether it's Popovix or Lefty or Dave, that silent generation, they were always figuring stuff out. And you couldn't just go to Feathercraft and order stuff. You had to make it and figure it out.And it's just interesting to see that entire creative process.

Henry Cowen00:08:47

Yeah. No question about it. When I showed Dave the first time, when I tied him up a few sheep shed, because he had never seen that pattern before.No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

Allen Rupp00:09:01

Yeah.

Henry Cowen00:09:04

Oh, God.

Allen Rupp00:09:05

We'll be talking.

Henry Cowen00:09:05

This is going to be the comedy hour.

Marvin Cash00:09:07

Oh, well, yeah. No, it's always funny. I always look forward to, you know, whether you're singing me happy birthday or leaving me a voicemail.I called you back, so you didn't get to prank me today. But, you know, Henry, why don't you tell us a little bit about, you know, how Dave influenced your stripe wrangling.

Henry Cowen00:09:23

Well, you know, it's funny, I. When I met Dave back at the shows, he.The way I met him, actually, Marvin, was he actually sat in on a striper presentation that I was doing at the show and he sat in the back of the room and I didn't even know he was there, to be honest with you. I just went through my presentation that had been upgraded tenfold because of the stage advice given to me by Mr. Cray.And Dave sat through one of those first presentations when it was finally Updated. And then I had a featured fly tire seminar at one of the shows as well. And Dave sat in on that, watching me tie.And then he came over to me and we started chatting. And he said, you know, I'm a big striper guy. And I said, I know.I said, you're, you know, my two idols are Ewan Blanton, who pioneered these kinds of fishing back in the day for stripers and fresh water. I said, that's, you know, I'm a salt water guy, quite frankly. You know, I moved to Atlanta in 97.So when I, you know, by the time I met Dave and whatnot, it was probably seven or eight years in, and I had been figuring it out. But Dave and I, you know, we used to discuss the big difference.You know, Dave, I don't know if our audience even knows this, but Dave found stripers by. He was doing the fly fishing school for L.L.bean back, I want to say it was in the late 80s, maybe the early 90s, and he was going up to Maine doing their fly fishing school. And when he was up there, he got turned on to striped bass in salt water.And then he came back after the school ended, and he happened to have seen stripers in the back of a pickup truck in his hometown by a guy, and there were a bunch of guys hanging around. He thought there was actually. He thought somebody had harvested a deer.And he gets back there and he sees these giant stripers, and that's kind of the light bulb went off. And he and I then talked about what he had learned over the years and what I was trying to figure out over the years and had started learning myself.And what's so interesting is that striped bass don't know where they live.So a striper in Virginia on Blaine Chocolate's Smith Mountain Lake is no different than a striper on Lanier in my lake or a striper down in Oklahoma or Texoma down, you know, in. In either Texas, Arkansas, or even Oklahoma, they don't know where they live. The patterns are exactly the same.And that's what Dave and I used to discuss. And, you know, he'd say to me, man, when the winter comes, those fish are on. Are so hard to feed.And I said, yeah, they're on that itty bitty bait, you know, David goes, yeah, they're like 2 inches. What happened to the 4 and 5 inch shed that we used to get them on?So it was so interesting that we both kind of found the same ongoing problems and we had solved the same problems. Obviously, we Had a lot of success, but we all had the same kinds of problems.And that's where Dave and I used to have a lot of discussions about fly design and about. Mostly about the patterns of. Everything is dictated by water temperature and where is the bait going to be.You know, in fresh water, Marvin, you don't have tides, so it's really hard. It's probably the hardest fishing I've ever done. It's next to carp. It's right up there with carp.And permit is catching freshwater stripers in a lake, so. Or in a river system for that matter.So that was kind of how the two of us, you know, he'd get my, he'd get my, my, you know, the hair on the back of my neck standing up when he, he'd write me a letter and ask me if I'd ever experienced this or that or whatever. And so that was. That's kind of how he influenced a lot of what I was trying to figure out myself.

Marvin Cash00:13:34

Yeah, it's funny you say that because I'm.While you're telling that story, I'm thinking about like fishing with Blaine and having him tell me the exact same stories about learning striper and Smith Mountain Lake and calling you and be like, henry, I just can't find the fish. Where are they?

Henry Cowen00:13:45

Right?

Marvin Cash00:13:45

Or something like that. Right?

Henry Cowen00:13:47

Yeah.I mean Blaine, Blaine would be calling me four days a week, you know, when he started getting into the striper gig and just asking really pertinent questions.And he figured it out and his fishery is great up, up in Virginia, but we all suffer the same problems or go through the same problems that we have to figure out. So that, that's kind of how Dave influenced a lot of my striper fishing and so forth.

Marvin Cash00:14:18

Very, very neat. And Alan, I know you, your time since you were kind of knee high to a grasshopper from doing my research for the interview.But, but I also know that, you know, Dave had some very concrete impacts on your development as a tire. You want to share that with folks?

Allen Rupp00:14:32

Yeah.So it was a, it was a day we were tying the Dave's hopper and he was showing me how to tie it and I said, oh well Dave, you know, we got these legs tied onto the body and it's a, it's a two stage fly. You, you basically do the back half and then let all the glue cure and set up and then you do the, the deer hair head separately.So what happens if one of those legs is, you know, askew? He goes out. They, they never are. I'm like, okay, I didn't think anything of it. I was like, okay, well he's just a really good fly tire.And then the next day, for whatever reason we chose, he taught me the wit hair bug. And I was like, oh, what happens when, you know, when we're doing the spread hackle feathers for the legs?I'm like, what happens when one of those rolls, they don't roll. If there's a problem with the fly, stop and fix it. And I, I didn't understand what he meant kind of at the time, but I do now in that it's, there's.Because I was like, oh, so when you have this bad fly, is that what you put in your box and you go fish with. And he got up from the table, went downstairs, came back three minutes later and gave me his fly box. And every fly in it was perfect.Like they were presentation quality flies. I was like, wow. And his point is, if you know it's wrong, just stop it and fix it. Undo it.Take, undo the three turns that just put it on there and fix it. There's no reason to, if you know that it's wrong, there's no reason to continue moving forward with the fly.And I, it's, it is one of the things that takes your fly tying to the next level is when you, when you get to that point and you start or, and you stop accepting good enough like you, you can, I'm not saying you can get to perfection, but you can get to really consistent good looking flies.

Marvin Cash00:16:24

Yeah.It's funny you say that because I've taken that advice and bought razor blades and reclaimed a bunch of hooks that I'm now trying to figure out what they are. And I have a drug scale so that I'm like, you know, weighing, you know, size 14 TMCO, you know, 5263s. I'm like, I think that's what these are.

Allen Rupp00:16:39

So yeah, here's what I'll tell you. Hooks are pennies. They're 10, 20 cents a piece. Just throw them out. Yeah.If the, if you go, if you realize that the fly is bad and you've already completed it and it's not a fishable, like a truly fishable fly, just throw it out.

Marvin Cash00:16:56

But I would say going back to kind of that frugality of people that came of age during the Great Depression like you, you know, I've heard these stories from guys that fished in the Smokies. They were like, it wasn't that they were cheap, right.So it was like there was A reason to be perfect about it because you couldn't just go, you know, get 50 more hooks. Right, right.

Allen Rupp00:17:13

And that's where, you know, I was. I, I live up here near the Catskills, and it's, it's a very similar thing.Everybody thinks that the reason why, you know, urine stain vixen fox was used for this particular pattern was because it's the right color and that's part of it. But what it was is it was an animal that was available locally and it was basically free if you shot it or trapped it or. Right.It wasn't that it was this super unique, rare hair that we think of it as it is now. No, it was readily available to them. It was frugality.

Marvin Cash00:17:48

Yeah, it's really neat. And you know, the interesting thing too about Dave is my understanding is he never succumbed to email.

Henry Cowen00:17:54

Right.

Marvin Cash00:17:55

So both of you guys have extensive correspondences with him. And I was wondering if you could, you know, maybe share a little bit about his letters with you.And I guess, you know, I'll traffic cop this a little bit. Henry, why don't you go first and then we'll let Alan go.

Henry Cowen00:18:10

Well, you know, I've got. I don't know how many letters I had gotten from Dave.He used to, I would call him and talk to him on the phone and he would answer by writing a letter back. And the letter was always double sided. You know, he wrote on both sides. He'd number the pages, and I'd never get a letter with less than if the.If, if one page would have two numbers, would have one on the front side, two on the back side. I never got a letter from Dave with less than eight quote unquote pages in it. He just loved to write. It was all handwritten, not typed out.And a lot of what he did was he would actually talk to you in the letter where you'd think you were sitting right across from the guy. I mean, he'd draw a diagram and say, this is what I'm talking about when I noticed blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he'd actually diagram it.And we once had a long conversation in letters that probably went on for over a month about the use of how important it is to Dave when you're fishing for freshwater striped bass to make sure that you have a clear tip intermediate line. And I always said, I don't think my, my fish give a, give a hoot whether it's a clear tip or, you know, whatever colored tip.And he's, oh, no, no, no. And it Was all in. There was no arguing because it was all in letters back and forth to one another.You know, I would, I would write back to him and say, you know, Dave, I understand everything you're saying, but I think you're wrong here. No, Henry, I'm not wrong. And I'll tell you, it was just great. So you had conversations the old fashioned way, if you will.

Marvin Cash00:19:51

Yeah, it's funny you say that.Cause it makes me think about when I was a kid and we would like come home from my grandmother's and we would, person to person, call ourselves back and we weren't there. And that was how we let people, you know, know that we were home. Because phone calls were really expensive until they broke up the bells.

Henry Cowen00:20:05

But you know what? I'll tell you one thing, Marvin, is that he was unbelievably kind, complimentary, transparent and incredibly respectful of your opinion.Whether he agreed or he didn't agree. There was no meanness to it. It was just like, you know, Henry, I mean, if it works, that's fine.But I, I wouldn't, you wouldn't catch me out there without a clear tip intermediate and you know, of that extent. But, you know, it wasn't like, are you crazy?You're not going to, you know, he's not like Allan from New York State where he tell me to go, forget about it, you know.

Marvin Cash00:20:44

Yeah. So, so Alan, how about you?

Allen Rupp00:20:47

You know, I'm going to add to it just a little bit because it's the letter I was thinking about is when I was, when he was teaching me the sheep shad, both the, the swimmer, the deep and the, the waker, I was tying it and I was, I kept placing the eye in the wrong place, right. And, and, and I was putting the dot in the wrong place as well, the operculum spot.So I, you know, he had sent me a bunch of, you know, he showed me it, he'd sent me a bunch of samples of every size, of every, you know, version for me to have as, you know, t to tie to. And I wasn't seeing the fly. Right.So all of a sudden what I get back is about a five or six page letter that hit eight topics that we were talking about.But in it, it was like Henry just said, he had drawn a picture of the fit of a shad with an eyeball and an operculum spot on there in the right place. He goes, alan, pay attention. And he goes. And I drew a halfway line through it. Look at where the eye is compared to that halfway line.And look where the operculum spot is compared to that halfway line. You know, they need to be a. Above that. Like he had. He was so meticulous about where that needed to be and where he wanted it on his fly.

Henry Cowen00:21:59

You know, Alan, that goes back to what you were talking about before about tying a fly, Right? He was a perfectionist, obviously.

Allen Rupp00:22:06

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yes. And. And that was. That was one of my favorite letters I got from him because it was. It was one of those eight pagers.And it's also the only one that he ever did for me where on the outside of the letter on the envelope, he. He would sometimes give somebody a colored pencil drawing. And then he'd put. He had a clear spray that he would put over it that would protect it.That was the only letter I ever had that had the drawing on the. On the letter on the envelope. So that was. That was a cool one to get. It was a rainbow trout leaping out of.I don't remember if it's eating an insect or not. But he. I later asked him. He. The trout had scales on it. I'm like, this is colored pencil. How did you. And he showed me.He would take his bodkin and scratch the paper. So it was like an embossing to get.

Henry Cowen00:22:59

Incredible.

Allen Rupp00:22:59

Yeah.

Henry Cowen00:23:00

And every letter he signed would say. When he was ending, he'd just say, henry, I love you.And then he'd say, Dave Whitlock, and he'd draw a little fish under his name and blah, blah, blah, blah. But every. No, not most of them. Every single one was I love you. I mean, he was so appreciative of his friends. And he meant it.You know, he really meant it. That was Dave. He's, you know, of all the icons out there, Marvin. And, you know, I was very close with Lefty.I'm just telling you, Dave was the sweetest of them all. There was no nicer, kinder human being that. That I had met in the fishing world than. Than Dave Whitlock. Maybe Joe Maz.But outside of Joe Maz, definitely Dave Whitlock.

Allen Rupp00:23:52

I'll throw Emily Whitlock in there.

Henry Cowen00:23:54

Yes.

Allen Rupp00:23:56

He chose the right lady there. She's super sweet. So I. I agree. The other thing I'll say is he was.He was genuine in his desire to get you to the point where he wanted you to understand what it is he was teaching you. He realized that sometimes it's going to take four conversations, it's going to take five months, and he didn't push it.Like, he let it happen on its own. He.At one point, he was talking to me and he was telling me how I was at, you know, we were talking about his drawing and his painting and all of that in the art side of his business and his passion. And then I was talking about fly tying and how it's, you know, for me, our fly tying at the time was very much a copycat thing.I copy Lefty's Deceiver very well. I do the Half and Half very well. I do the Clouser Minnow well. Right. I can copy things. At the time, I wasn't very. I didn't have a lot of good own.Of good ideas of my own. Even though I've been tying at this point, I'm think this is my 37th year or 36th year tying. But it, like, I just.I've never been, you know, creative like that. And he goes, no, Alan, you're fly tying is an art. And I was like, I. I said I didn't think it was.And he mentioned it to me again a month or two later. And then like three months into this, all of a sudden, when. When I'm doing a deer hair fly of his, one of his waking bluegills, and I'm.I'm seeing how I can add blue to get stripes to go down the cheek like a bluegill has. He's like, you can make stripes if you want, Alan. This is how. And he showed me how to make stripes.He goes, you don't need to very often, but it does make the fly look pretty. And sometimes we like to fish pretty flies. But I realized then that fly tying is art.It's just a different form than the colored pencils or the acrylics that he worked with. It was just a different medium.

Henry Cowen00:25:51

I agree. I totally agree.

Marvin Cash00:25:54

Yeah, it's really neat. And, you know. Alan, do you have a favorite memory of Dave?

Allen Rupp00:26:01

Oh, goodness. It's really difficult to choose. It really is. But my. My favorite memory is one time we got to go fishing together, and he paddled me around the.He had a private pond there on the property that he lived ON that was Mr. Nichols Pond. And we went over there and, I mean, I caught 15 bass over five pounds all on top. Water flies in two hours. It was.It's just one heck of a little pond, right? I mean, wasn't very big. We're sitting in a canoe and like four or five, six times I turn, turn to him and go, Dave, let's go to the shore.Let's switch. I want you to fish. It's like, no, Alan, I. I'd rather watch you fish right now. And, and it was my first time fishing around Dave.It was quite stressful because I'm. I'm not the best canoe angler. I'm not gonna lie. I'm okay. And if this wasn't the world's most stable canoe.And I got out at the end and he goes, alan, I was impressed. Your. Your casting wasn't too bad. You, you didn't rock the boat much. I said, well, yeah, in a canoe I know you can only cast with the army.You can't use any of your body. It was correct. You can't.

Henry Cowen00:27:17

Was.

Allen Rupp00:27:17

But. So that was, that was one of my favorite memories of him is he just, he wouldn't. He wanted to see me succeed.He wanted to share those fish with me, which was cool.And I caught all the flies or all the fish were caught on flies that he tied because I showed up that for that trip I didn't bring any of my own fishing gear. And I was sitting there in jeans and a button down shirt, you know, looking to tie flies all day. He goes, and let's go fish instead.Like, okay, very neat.

Marvin Cash00:27:47

Henry, how about you?

Henry Cowen00:27:49

Well, it's hard to pick one story with Dave. I've had some really good times with him, especially around the dinner table. But my, probably my favorite story, Dave wasn't even with me.And it's my best Dave Whitlock story. I was out pre fishing. I had a guide trip. The next day I had a guide trip like on a Monday.And so I went out and pre fished on Sunday by myself to just get an idea, make sure the patterns were still holding up and when the fish are still doing what they're supposed to be doing at that time of year. And I had probably fished the better part of three hours. And it turns out that I had not caught a fish the entire morning. I got skunked.And I get to a point where I'm in the upper part of the Chattahoochee river on Lanier, and I make a cast. And as soon as the fly hits the water, the phone rings and I look and it's Dave Whitlock.And I put the phone under my, you know, resting the phone on my shoulder, cocking my neck against the foot, you know, my head against the side of my shoulder while I'm stripping the line in. And immediately I hook a fish. I'm like, Dave, you did it. You know you did it. You gave me the luck I needed.And Marvin, to this day, I kid you not, and you can talk to how many people I've taken on linear and the guides that are on linear. When we passed this point, it is called Whitlock's Point. We aptly named it after Dave because that's. And it was a great. And Dave was just laughing.How big is it, Henry? What's it. Is it running hard? You know, it was just unbelievable. So that's probably one of my most fun stories I tell with Dave.

Marvin Cash00:29:46

Yeah, that's pretty neat.And so, you know, Henry, for, you know, what should folks know about Dave that they wouldn't be able to pick up from spending time with him at his show? For example?

Henry Cowen00:29:58

You know, I, I would have to say that he was all. He was always trying to learn for a guy that, you know, he'd. He'd forget more than you would ever know because he studied the craft so well.But Dave would always want to learn whether he was picking your brain on leaders and set up or whether, you know, I can't tell you how many times at the shows in New Jersey and in Atlanta, Dave would. I was tying at a booth, you know, one of the tables, and Dave would come up behind me. I didn't even see him.And then he'd lean in and go, you know, I really like the way those colors look on the. And that was Dave. He was studying your technique. Technique to see if he could pick something up.And that was, you know, that was one of the great things, you know, he was a student at heart.Even though this guy knew it, knew more than, and could teach everybody so many different things, he was truly a student at heart, always looking to learn, always had an open mind. We'd go out to dinner at the shows. You know, Brad Beefus and scientific anglers would take a group of us out every year at the show for dinner.Whether it was George Daniel or Landon Mayer and myself and Emily and the cyangler guys, we'd all go out and Dave was the one guy at the table listening to everything.He always was trying to pick something up, whatever it was, whether you were talking about bone fishing or you were bluegill fishing, it didn't make a difference.And, you know, that's, that's the part of Dave that most people, you know, this is not a guy who's going to tell you, but he also wants to pick up what, you know, that maybe he didn't realize. And, and, and he'd be the first one to say, you know, I never thought about it. That way. That's a great idea. And that was Dave.That's what I would tell you about Dave. And he was so comfortable in his shoes.

Marvin Cash00:32:20

Yeah. Very neat. And Alan, how about you?

Allen Rupp00:32:26

Oh, yeah, I would, you know, if there was something that people don't realize about Dave, and Henry already said it. He, he truly was a kind man. Like, and I don't think people realize how giving he was to, if, if you made it into his inner circle.He was giving with his time and he didn't have a lot. Like, he was super busy between taking care of the trout stream and the ponds and, you know, doing the fly tying orders that he had and the art.And like, he was always busy working. He, he didn't take very many days off. Right. But if you need, if you were inside that circle and you called him up and had a question, you had him.He, you had his undivided attention. And he.And if it was a question that warranted a letter within, you know, by the end of the week, boom, there's a letter in your mailbox with the explanation that you were, you know, you know, with the further explanation after the phone call or after the text or whatever it was, he was just, he was so kind in that way.

Henry Cowen00:33:36

You know, the other thing I remember too is he was a jokester. You want to talk about somebody who was a jokester? He had a great sense of humor.I'd get on the phone and, you know, Emily would pick up and say, we'd be on the phone for 10 minutes and then he'd, you know, she'd give the phone to Dave, call Dave, and Dave would pick up the phone and, and he'd say, you flirting with my wife again? I mean, that was typical Dave Whitlock. You know, he had a great sense of humor.

Allen Rupp00:34:07

Agreed.

Marvin Cash00:34:08

Yeah. And Alan, you know, what, what do you think in terms of, you know, Dave's influence?And I know because both of you kind of, you know, had different relationships with Dave, but, you know, what do you think is his influence on current and future generations of Flaglers?

Allen Rupp00:34:22

Well, I'm, I have, I don't have a rosy opinion of that. I think he's being forgotten. It's partially because the decision he made for the last 10 or 12 years of his life, he wanted to focus more on his art.So he stopped going to a lot of trade shows. You know, he kind of did only the local ones or maybe did the, did the Denver one a couple of times.But he stopped doing all of the fly fishing shows that Ben and Chuck did, you know, and, and that's unfortunately, with our industry, if you're not in the people's face, then you, you do kind of get lost. You know, people don't realize that the first strike indicator ever put on a fly line was Dave trying to figure out a way to nymph better.He wrote about that in one of his last articles for Trout magazine.In that same one, he talked about the knotless leader connection that I know that Al Coochie and Bob Nastazi wrote about numerous times in their writings between, you know, the different magazines that they would write for. But they said it was an absolute must for the upper Delaware River. And I, I completely agree. I, I use it almost exclusively.And then, you know, even somebody that's more modern, you know, with today's, you know, hip crowd, quote unquote, is, you know, Kelly Gallup.And one of, and I think it was in his first book, Modern the Trophy Streamers book, he said that when he was trying to create the, the matuka or the woolly sculpin and the zookuber, he was just trying to make a sculpin fly that fished as good as the matua sculptum. That didn't take 45 minutes to. To tie because the matuka sculpting takes forever. It's a slow, laborious tie, but it's a fabulous sculpin fly.So even he realized the genius of, of Dave. He just was trying to do it quicker. So there's, there's so many things I, I was, I'm.I'm doing an order or a donation for the American Museum of Fly Fishing. We've got a gala coming up in early August, and a bunch of the people in there are always like bonefish and permit guys.Well, Dave in one, I forget which Dick Brown book, whether it was bonefish or bonefish flies, I forget which one. But Dick, Dave has flies in there. And one of them he called the Near Enough. The Near Enough shrimp.And when you look at it, it looks like a Near Enough crayfish with short, stubby claws. And when I asked him about it, he goes, oh, yeah, I remember that fly. Now, he had forgotten that he had done it.He had forgotten that he had a published fly for bonefish and permit in Dick Brown's books. So there's so many things that he's had an impact on, and there's a lot of people that don't know that that was the case.So I'm hopefully, you know, by these podcasts that we're doing here and the trade shows that we do. And, you know, I know Henry talks about them too, like we're just trying to make sure he doesn't get forgotten.

Marvin Cash00:37:20

And Henry, what are your thoughts?

Henry Cowen00:37:23

Well, you know, I agree with, I agree with what Alan said. You know, how do you keep that legacy alive? You know, I did a piece for fly fishermen a few years back about our Mount Rushmore of fly fishing.And, you know, who are the four guys that deserve to be on Mount Rushmore? And it was such an easy. It was such an easy selection.You know, I had Lee Wolf and I had Lefty Cray, and I had what's his name, who taught Lefty Joe Brooks, and then I had Dave, and it was such an easy selection. Those were the four. So, you know, he deserves to have a legacy. Go on.And, and if there's anything I remember, you know, about Dave as far as his legacy and what people should remember is, you know, in today's world of, in today's world of, of social media, whether it's TikTok or Facebook or, or any of the, you know, Instagram, you have all these influencers or these people trying to be big influencers. Dave was an influencer in the fly fishing market before there was ever social media. And you look at what he made cool and popular.He didn't just fish for trout, which he did in his early years. He made bluegill fishing cool. He made temperate bass, like hybrids and stripers and whatnot, white bass. He made that cool.He made carp fishing cool when people thought carp were just a trash fish.And if you carry that forward today, and you talk to guys like Blaine Chocolate, for instance, who is one of the big influencers in our, in our sport today. Blaine is all about muskie. Blaine is all about snakeheads and all these prehistoric paddlefish and stuff.I mean, this all comes from the roots of Dave Whitlock influencing the younger generation and saying, hey, it's not just about trout and striped bass. There's a lot of the species out there that are really cool animals to fish for and admire. And I think, I really think that's.That's what I'm going to know.What I feel is most important about Dave and how I feel about him and what he's done for the sport and what people, 50 years from now when they start fishing for mummichogs with a fly, you know, that all goes back to the roots of taking unpopular species and making them popular. And that's, to me, Marvin, that's what I think.

Allen Rupp00:40:22

I really like that, Henry. That's a, that's a really valid point.

Marvin Cash00:40:26

It's interesting, Henry, because I think I told you this yesterday when we were talking that, you know, like if you were to say Dave Whitlock, the picture that instantly comes to my mind is he's wearing a red long sleeve shirt and he's kneeling down and he's lipping a bass with a fly rod. And I don't know where that picture is, but it's somewhere that we've seen it a lot.And I think it's actually, honestly, I think it might be on the COVID an old fly fisherman pamphlet that I have here in my office. But to me that's kind of the, the quintessential picture.If you're not like, you know, watching Dave like interact with, you know, people that are buying his art and his coffee mugs and talking to him about stuff, that to me is the kind of quintessential picture of Dave Whitlock.

Henry Cowen00:41:06

Yeah, there's no question, no question.He was just, he was just a good old country boy who knew how to cast a rod and put fish in a, you know, on the beach or, you know, on the lake front or in a boat. And he just, he was a really fishy guy. Markman, I'm going to tell you, Dave had, did not have super short hair.And if you look behind his ear and just down, he had some gills in there, pal, let me tell you, there were gills under his ear. So just so you know.

Marvin Cash00:41:43

You know, one of the interesting things is, you know, you guys kind of bumped into each other because of your relationship with Dave, but you haven't really spent a lot of time together. So I thought it'd be really interesting this evening to let you each ask the other a question about Dave.So I don't know if you want a paper, rock, scissors for it, about who wants to go first or, you know, I'll just pick Alan and Alan, why don't you ask Henry a question then, Henry, you can return the favor.

Allen Rupp00:42:06

Well, I wanted to know if he ever worked with you on fly design and, and refining any flies or working with you on any of the ones that you had created.

Henry Cowen00:42:20

You know, that's a great question.Dave was too kind to want to refine my flies, you know, but he would always land an ear and say, you know, I'd send him something and say, hey Dave, you know, I've got this little fly called a something else. And you know, it's nothing more than a polar fiber minnow that's all. It's a polar fiber Clauser Minnow is what it is.You just take a Clauser, tie it on a size 6 hook with polar fiber, gray on top, white on the bottom, the ticket with a little silver flash and we put a little hot pink fluorofiber in at the throat as a trigger. And you know, Dave would look at that and he goes, you know, that is going to crush.He went before I even started really passing it around and whatnot. Dave said to me, that is going to crush him because those silly stripers are so hard to, to feed a fly to when they're on that ultra small bait.It's just incredible. And, but so, you know, you know, Dave knew what was going to work and what wasn't going to work. You know, he tied a lot better than olive a tie.But, but you know, I'm not the perfectionist. I tie guide flies, Alan. So I got to bang my flies out in five minutes because I lose so many to customers.Hitting them off the back of the motor or wrapping it around the antenna on the, you know, at the center console.And we just lose a lot of flies, you know, so I, I, when I was laughing when you were telling the story, you know, about, you know, about the, how he made that fly so much easier to tie. The other fly you were discussing earlier, what was that? The sex dungeon or one of those flies you had mentioned.

Allen Rupp00:44:12

Yeah, Kelly gallop was looking for Kelly.

Henry Cowen00:44:14

Gallop fly right the sculpt. And, and you know, that's my fly tie comes right out of that, that, that attitude of, you know, short and sweet, that catches fish is good enough.But I did not have Dave perfectionist eye like he has. So, but, so that was, you know, a little bit of influence.But like I said, he was always, I'll tell you one thing, here's something back, back in the early, about 2000, 2002, Dave saw my coyote fly, which had the little spinner blade in the front and it's a rabbit clauser with a spinner blade. And the spinner blade was there to pulsate and make noise in, in less clear water to get them to feel it.And back in those days, Alan tying flies with hardware was poo pooed. You know, everybody gave you a really hard time about that. And Dave was one of the first people to say, I love that. That's a great idea.He was so encouraging, you know, about stuff like that. That, that was the gentleman in Dave Whitlock. So that as, as, as Tom Hanks would say, that's all I'm going to say about that. So. Good old Ford scump.But I do have a question for you. I wanted to know, and this is just a personal question because you were close with Dave. You know Dave really well.If you had one day left to fish and you could take Dave fishing with you, where would you want to go and what species would you want to catch with him? What would be your ideal fishing day with Dave?

Allen Rupp00:46:16

That's actually a pretty easy one for me. I'm currently in love with Birmingham, Alabama right now. The fishing down there with Rob Rogers. He's just got some really cool canoe fishing.You can wait it a little bit. Virtually no other boat will do it. And it's, it's mostly spotted bass.There's a few red eyes mixed in, some nice sized gills here and there and it's, it's just intimate fishing. And he's got some good quality spots.He's getting some three and fours and you know, I haven't gotten a five there yet, but I've seen them and he's, he's shown me tons of pictures of them and I know Dave liked that area as well. And in fact the reason I go down there is because of Dave.So I'd like to go down there and fish with him and because we'd also get to fish those air jet minnows that I like to fish. They're. That little air jet minnow that he tied is a super effective little popping bug. It's so much more than a popping bug. He used to yell at me.He used to actually get upset when I would call it a popping bug because it is so much more than that. But the name that he chose was too much of a sentence to try to say every time you're talking about. It's the extra ultralight air jet minnow. It's.But it was a, it's a fabulous fly, so. And I'd love to do that with him.

Henry Cowen00:47:45

Yeah, he, he loved his, he loved his bass, didn't he?

Allen Rupp00:47:49

You know, he did. But I, what it, what I realized at the last two or three years with him is he wanted to catch fish the way he wanted to catch them.So if the conditions didn't allow that, he wasn't bothered to go. He didn't have to go fishing just to catch a fish.Like if we went to that pond and, and the top water's bite was off, I'd pick up a Clouser or a half and half or you know, I would pick up other streamers and start going to town on him. Still, he wouldn't.If they weren't gonna eat a top water, if they weren't gonna eat the air jet minnow or one of his deer hair divers or a whit hair bug, like he didn't want to fish anything else for those.

Henry Cowen00:48:29

Right.

Allen Rupp00:48:30

And I kind of, at the time, I was like, wow, man. Like I. Because I don't get to, you know, I haven't had 60 years of fishing like you did or 70 years of fishing.I just want to catch fish anytime I can. I, I'm starting to understand why. He was like, no, when you go fishing, you want to catch them the way you want to catch them.And if that means you only get 15 in the day instead of 45, well, that's okay too, as long as you know that you've made that choice.

Henry Cowen00:48:57

Right. Right. I know that.You know, before he passed, for last few years, couple of years before he passed, we'd been trying to set up a north Georgia float trip for him to catch shoal bass. He loved. He wanted to catch shoal bass in the worst way.

Allen Rupp00:49:13

Yeah.

Henry Cowen00:49:13

And those are native as, you know, to Georgia. Yeah.And every time he came up and around these parts, the weather just, you know, when he planned a week and go, this is when I can come for these two or three days. And the weather just looked awful.And I regret that we never got the boys at Unicoi Outfitters up in Helen have some of the, you know, I know everybody talks about the Flint river and shoal bass. I am telling you, the boys up at unicoi have it dialed in and it's just a great fishery. And he really wanted to do that.

Allen Rupp00:49:50

Yeah, yeah. You talked to me about that in the red eye as well. Yes, I'm trying to get all of the red eyes now I've got two of the species done.

Henry Cowen00:49:58

Well, listen, if you come down to Georgia, we'll hook up and get a trip. The heck with Marvin. You and I'll get a trip and we'll, we'll go show that we'll get the boys from unicoida to row us down the river.We'll, we'll, we'll fish for show bass. And just so you know, you know, I'll fish anybody's fly. I don't care what, what I'm fishing. You know, I'm good, whatever.

Allen Rupp00:50:20

I'll show up with a bunch of air jets and deer hair divers.

Henry Cowen00:50:23

That sounds perfect.

Allen Rupp00:50:25

Yeah. And then I always have clousers too, because they Just work.

Henry Cowen00:50:29

Yeah, the. The American express of fly fishing. You don't leave home without it.

Allen Rupp00:50:34

You know what? That's going to be the new tagline for that fly.

Marvin Cash00:50:38

Yeah, there's a. There's a sticker for you.But, you know, it's interesting, Alan, because, you know, people, you know, see you on the show circuit, but I don't know that they know that Dave selected you to be kind of his legacy tire and one of the keepers of the flame. And one of the ways that you do that.Again, people see on tires row, you teach at the fly fishing shows, but you have a specialized Dave Whitlock school. They're near enough schools to really help people that are interested in understanding 1.To participate in all these great stories like we've shared tonight, but also to understand the way Dave thought about things and the way he tied flies. You want to talk a little bit about that?

Allen Rupp00:51:15

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I do. Near enough crayfish and near enough sculpin schools, and then I combine them and I call it the complete near enough school. But that's a.That's a full day class. It's about eight hours, six, six and a half to seven hours when you break for lunch at eight. And it's, you know, we go through.I teach you how to tie the flies. I teach you how to fish the flies.And more importantly, I spend time going through, you know, depending upon whether it's the crayfish or the sculpin, we go through probably 60 slides of different types of bait fish or crayfish so that people can understand why these flies are so important and so effective. There's over. There's over 380 species of crayfish in North America. And I. I forget the number of sculpins right now. Cause I haven't looked at that.That class in a couple of weeks or a month. A couple of months now, actually. But that same sculpin fly, it imitates the following species, which all live on the bottom.Whether it's darters, mad tom sculpin, stone cats and suckers, and hog roll. Hog hop, was it. Stone rollers, that's the other one. So all of those fish get imitated by the same pattern. Whether, you know, if it's under.Dave's rule is basically if it's under 3 inches, it's the near enough. If it's larger than 3 inches, we go to the matuga sculpin. And you just change the colors to. To match what's there naturally.But yeah, I go through presentation methods you know, and I bring in other people that have influenced me. I grew up in Northern Virginia, so Harry Murray. I grew up in Frederick, Maryland. Lefty lived in Frederick.I mean, I know, I know where they put the monument. I used to go fish in that pond as a kid. So the, these people all were part of my life in my growing up. But the.I have Harry Murray's talks about a fly tying or a fly fishing technique called swing nymphing, which he learned from Charlie Brooks.If you're on a small to medium sized river, I don't care if it's got any species of fish in it, whether it's channel catfish, walleye, smallmouth, largemouth, spotted bass, trout. If you swing them flies, you are going to crush fish. It's just incredibly effective.And you can do it with streamers like the Near Enough sculpin, the Near Enough crayfish, or you know, Harry Murray like to do it with his Murray strength or a Charlie Brook stonefly or, you know, you have lots of options. I used to do it a lot with a Clouser Foxy red minnow. That's going back like 15 or 20 years when I used to fish that fly a ton. So.But I go through all of these things, the different techniques, you know, Kelly Gallup's techniques work with some of these flies. But yeah, I do that. And then I do these same classes in person and then I do them on zoom calls as well. When I do a zoom call, I push out two images.One is 480, which means it's not very good. And that's when you get to see my wonderful face.And you know, so I can hold up a whole skin and say this is where we're going to get our feathers from or something like that. And then I have another camera that's focused just on my, the, my vice and that's pushing out at 1080p. That's pretty high res.And you can, you can see the, you know, you can count the Henkel barbs on a near enough crayfish pretty easily.

Henry Cowen00:54:40

You know, Marvin, I can, I can just tell you when it comes to Alan, and I mean this with the utmost respect and sincerity, I can't see Jerry Garcia and the Grateful Dead, but I can go to a Grateful Dead tribute band and have a wonderful time. This is our Dave Whitlock tribute tire.And you can get a lot of, you know, you can get a lot of good stuff out of that kind of a, out of that kind of a show and enjoy it just as much you know, and. And people will crave that, in my opinion. 10, 15, 20 years from now, for sure, as long as Alan's hands are still steady.

Allen Rupp00:55:17

Yeah, well, that's kind of you to say, Henry. I hope they're steady in 15 years. That was another thing. Dave had very steady hands all the way. That was impressive.

Henry Cowen00:55:27

Yeah.

Allen Rupp00:55:28

Yeah.

Marvin Cash00:55:29

And so before I let you gentlemen go this evening and watch Jeopardy. Or Murder she Wrote, do you have anything else you want to share with our listeners?

Allen Rupp00:55:39

Henry, you can go.

Henry Cowen00:55:41

No, I'm just. Listen, Are you kidding me? It's. It's always a delight to be able to talk about somebody who you cared for and loved and want to pay respect to.You know, guys like Alan and I, we were, quite frankly, really fortunate to know someone like Dave and get close to him. It's. It was an honor to have had that privilege.And I felt the same way with Lefty and not quite as close, but I felt the same way with Popovic and, you know, all these great fly fishermen.And, you know, we're very fortunate to live in the time we lived in history and be able to pass this forward because the history of the sport is so important. Especially, Alan, when you were getting involved with like, the.The museum of, you know, the fly fishing Museum up in Manchester and stuff, that's where it all started.I mean, I know they've been fly fishing for hundreds of years, but let's face it, it's really the, you know, the 20th century was a big part of fly fishing coming out of it, out of its shells, so to speak, especially late 20th century. And these guys, especially guys like Whitlock, we were just, as I said, privileged to be able to know them and spend time with them.

Allen Rupp00:57:11

I. I feel. I wholeheartedly agree. It's why I have chosen to volunteer with the American Museum of Fly Fishing so much. It's. They have a good cause.You know, we got Dave's fly tying desk in there.

Henry Cowen00:57:26

Yeah, right.

Allen Rupp00:57:28

Yeah.

Henry Cowen00:57:29

Did I. Did I have a. You guys want to hear a real. You.You may not want to tell about this in the, you know, when you do the broadcast, but this is a great story about the American Museum of Fly Fish. When Lefty passed away, he needed to. We needed to try and preserve his legacy. So Lefty's words, I'm very close with his.The executor of his estate, which was his doctor, and he was. I'm still very close with. With him. And in order to preserve the legacy, we decided that we needed to take the Tarpon off of his.Off of his wall and send it to the Bonefish Tarpon Trust. And we wanted to get Lefty's desk and chair to the museum of, you know, to the Museum of American Fly Fishing.And so we saved up enough money to get as much as we could and we did. We got the chair, we got the desk, we got the tarpon. And now everything is being auctioned. And the day of the auction was in New York.And I said to my buddy the doctor, Dr. Mark Lamos. And I said, mark, we gotta get that vice.We've got to win Lefty's vice and send it up to the museum so that they have the table, the chair and his vice. And he's. That's a great idea. So the bidding starts. I bid $100 and it's, you know, it's an auction online. Somebody bids two, so I bid three.Somebody bids four, so I bid five. Somebody bids six, so I bid seven. Goes up. I got up to $900. Somebody bid a thousand and I just said I'm done. And I was going to just donate it.So they go on to the next item. Somebody won the. Won the vice. Five minutes later, the phone rings. It's Mark Lamos. I won the vice. I got it. We were bidding against one another.We had no idea. But the vice ended up making it up to the American Museum of Fly Fishing.And Allen, if you see behind me that print of the stripers in New York City, that was from 9 11.And I don't know if you can see there's a little yellow piece of paper right here and in the corner it says to be donated to the American Museum of Fly Fishing. It's, it's, it's, it's num. It's one of 100 a litho that Alan James Robinson did after 9 11.And I've got Lefty and Popovics and Clausers flies all shadow boxed in and tied by them with their signatures under the flies. And that is destined. I told my wife, you do not sell that. That goes to the American Museum of Fly Fishing when I'm gone. So it's a great organization.That's what I mean when I say the history is so important.

Allen Rupp01:00:31

Agreed? Agreed. Yeah, I, I have Emily and I, I think we've come to an agreement. I'm going to be buying all of the fly she has from Dave.I want them for selfish reasons because he taught me about 130 of his 400 and something flies. But you know, if I look at the going Back in time, he had those, you know, back in the 90s with. He had those bass flies that Umpka was.Was doing, like the Dave's Wit hair jig and the. The, you know, just other different, like, bass type flies. He had one with a deer hair head, one with a rabbit fur head, and one called the.I think it was called the Enticer, which was kind of a. Like a rubber worm imitation, but it was just long, thin saddles tied in a different length. So with some flat. Anyways, all of those.The electric leech, there are samples of those there that I'll be able to. Knowing his tying style, I can already look at, like, the Enticer Go. All right. I can see he put bead chains there. He wrapped lead around that.There's a hard mono foundation underneath it. Right. I can. I can see 2/3 of the fly already, and there's three or four of them in, you know, three or four colors.So if I have to dissect one to see something, I. I don't feel too bad.

Henry Cowen01:01:52

Yeah. If you've got two or three others there.

Allen Rupp01:01:54

Yeah. But then that way I can. I can write it because I'm working on a couple of books on his patterns. I'm. I'm done. I'm done writing one.And now it's the photography board. I went through and put placeholders. I need a photo that does this, a photo that does this. You know, the different techniques and stuff. So that's.That's the summer's project is photography.

Henry Cowen01:02:16

You know, that's how. That's how people restore old stuff is as they're taking it apart to restore it.They're taking pictures of things so that they can rebuild it the exact way it was originally. So that's really cool.

Allen Rupp01:02:31

After his passing, I went to their place in Oklahoma. I think three or four times. I'd have to go back and check the photography, but I. I went through. I even pulled flies out of his vest.I took over 3,000 photos of flies and videos. Every fly of his that I could find, there is a. A photo of it sideways, the belly, the top.If it's something that needed to be from Head on, it's from Head On. If it's something that I need, you know, if there was multiple colors of flash, I have it sitting in a real slow motion video of me rotating it.I bought a light box for there to do it all. It was. Emily was nice enough to let me come and do all of that, but it, like, I have a lot of his history there to try to just.I want to learn these flies and make sure that they're not forgotten.

Henry Cowen01:03:21

Marvin.This is where history is so important to, to our sport and you know, like what Alan's doing and people like Jay Nichols have preserved a lot of history in our sport and it's really important that they continue to do things like that and where whatever we can do to help will do, you know, but it's. It's a wonderful thing. Anyway, that's all I'm going to say.

Marvin Cash01:03:48

Well, you know, Alan, I'm so glad you mentioned the book project because I was afraid we were. You were going to escape tonight and we weren't going to be able to share that with folks.But is there anything else you'd like to share with folks before we go?

Allen Rupp01:03:58

You know, I, I can't think of much else I'm looking forward. I got a small amount trip coming up in first week of August on the upper Potomac. It's one of my favorite things I do every year with William.William Hnik from Eastern Trophies. He's. I mean, how about this? We got rained out in April for our dates. We got. We got a.Another set of dates in August and he didn't have anything else left. And this was in April. He was already sold out for the year.

Henry Cowen01:04:25

Amazing.

Allen Rupp01:04:27

It's great. It's a great problem for him to have. It's really hard as the customer and I, I don't care. Like I.Every year I book four to six days with him and hope I can get out on the water.

Marvin Cash01:04:37

They're.

Allen Rupp01:04:38

They're just. He's. He's got his fishery so dialed in. I'm really looking forward to it. Plus it's all top water. Like top water smallmouth. It's fabulous.

Henry Cowen01:04:47

Best.

Marvin Cash01:04:48

Yeah, I'm a little bit softer. I wait until the heat breaks to get out there because I figured out that the fish are in the shade and I'm not. And that's.I grew up in that part of the world so I always joke with Blaine about like that, that blue, green aqua haze that's on the water where you like look. And it's just, that's just how it is all day long. And it's, you know, it's, it's a 90 plus, 90 plus day.It's usually super high humidity and it's super hot out there with your straw cowboy hat on.

Allen Rupp01:05:16

That's what the midday dip in the river is for.

Marvin Cash01:05:19

Yeah, but that's not enough. Um, I figure if you wait until the Heat breaks. You've probably got, you know, two to three weeks of good top water fishing left.

Allen Rupp01:05:26

Oh, you know what, that's what I always thought. He catches fish all the way through until the first or the second really hard frost.He gets them all the way normally all the way through October and sometimes into November still. Yeah, he's like 20 fish days on top water that late season.

Marvin Cash01:05:42

Yeah, it's neat.And so, you know, it's kind of funny, right, because you know, the kind of the industry folks we're all starting to think about, like I'm thinking about, you know, advertising budgets that people start looking at in the third quarter. And so all of us now are starting to think about show season. So before I let you go, you know, do you guys know kind of where you'll be?You know, I guess the first one that might come up would be the fly tying symposium up in New Jersey in November before we kind of get into the thick of it. But if you have places where people know they can find you to talk about Dave, learn how to tie patterns, talk about sodium free striper.You guys want to share your, your show plans?

Allen Rupp01:06:17

Henry, you can go first.

Henry Cowen01:06:19

You know, it's really easy for me if I'm going to do any show this year, it's going to be if they have if Atlanta happens.And right now it's not a guarantee that Atlanta is going to happen because the venue where we've had it for the last several years is not renewing the fly fishing shows contract. They just never felt we were a good fit, which is ridiculous, but such a nice. Yeah, it was a great venue, but.And all the other venues that are local that time of year, they're already booked. So Ben may have to pass on 26 and then come back better than ever in 27.We have a wonderful place that he's looking into now that would actually be better than the, the venue where it's been at. So he's looking at the Cobb Galleria going forward and we're going to keep our fingers crossed.And then, you know, if I'm feeling up to it, I, you know, I haven't been up to Edison, New Jersey in a long time. So I may show up, I may show my face there and, and, and walk around Edison a little bit.And if that those are the two shows, you know, that those are the two shows because of my health that I could really afford to do if I was going to do other shows. What I would consider doing is I'd love to do Denver Because I hear it's a great show.And you know, my, my, you know, my audience would be in San Francisco at that. At, you know, at the west coast show that would. There's a lot of freshwater striper fishing up there for those guys.And so I would consider doing that too. But for sure, right now, Atlanta, if it's on, I'll be there. And good chance I'm going to try and get up to the January show in Somerset.

Marvin Cash01:08:10

We'll have to go to Harold's together if that happens.

Henry Cowen01:08:12

Oh, now we're talking.

Allen Rupp01:08:16

Yeah.

Marvin Cash01:08:17

How was you?

Henry Cowen01:08:17

Have you been to Harold? Have you been to Harold?

Allen Rupp01:08:19

Is that the place for the pastrami sandwich?

Henry Cowen01:08:22

Yeah, the one. The one where if you spread your forefinger and your thumb as far apart as you can, that's what one sandwich looks like. Of pastrami.

Allen Rupp01:08:30

Yeah, it's great.

Marvin Cash01:08:31

Yeah. And the matzas are the size of a coconut.

Henry Cowen01:08:34

Yeah, it's true.

Marvin Cash01:08:36

Nice.

Allen Rupp01:08:36

Nice. Yeah. All right, well, I'm. I'll be at the fly tying symposium. I just mailed my check in yesterday to Chuck there. November, was it November 15th?I think it is. And 16th, but you'll have to check his website for that. Then I'll be doing the Virginia fly fishing and Wine Festival. Typically do the Jersey show.I'll do the Lancaster show again if Atlanta happens. I normally do the Atlanta show. I do the show in Maryland. It's a one day event towards the end of March.I do the Saalbug Roundup every year out in Mountain Home. What's the other one? I did Denver last year. I'm not. Denver was a weird show. It was very busy, but it, it seemed like there were a.There were a lot of non fly fishing anglers that came because it was a family. A family day out kind of thing. So that was. I'm not sure about that one because it's. It's a rather expensive show to begin with, so that one might.May or may not happen. There's one other show that. Oh, I do the.

Henry Cowen01:09:43

You do Texas.

Allen Rupp01:09:46

I, I haven't done both. Stopped doing the Texas one. I haven't been invited to the. The Trout Fest.

Henry Cowen01:09:54

Oh, yeah, the one in Florida that they had this year.

Allen Rupp01:09:58

Oh, the lefty. The tie Fest. I wasn't. But I, I have since spoken to Jackie and Bob about that and they're working on getting me an invitation for next year.

Henry Cowen01:10:09

Oh, we'll get you in that. No, Blaine is very. A big part of that. We'll get you in. Blaine was always Looking for. For good tires. So if you want to tie there, just let me know.We'll get you signed up immediately.

Allen Rupp01:10:22

Yeah, no, I want to do that. And then I also do the. My. My second favorite or even my favorite show depending upon the mood.I'm in the Gulf Coast Classic down in Gulf Shores, Alabama. It's a very small FFI show. It's a Friday, Saturday show. It's a. They got. I think they got 400 people this year between the two days to walk through.It's really small. It's like a. Smaller than like a. A high school basketball, you know, thing. But it's. They're really good about. They have free fly casting lessons.They have a bunch of free stuff for beginners. They had advanced people. You know they have two.They had one mass certified master casting instructor there and three certified casting instructors doing this. We got a. A good group of tires that came down. We had somebody from South Dakota, Texas, Mac Bryson from Georgia came over.

Henry Cowen01:11:18

I'm sure sp. I'm sure Space Coast Flies was probably there.

Allen Rupp01:11:22

They were, you know, just. There's so many people there that. And it's the only desire there is to just teach fly tying and fly fishing. If commerce happens, that's great.There's something nice about. It's kind of how I feel about the Sabug Roundup, which is my other favorite show. Commerce isn't the, the main reason. Fly fishing is the reason.Teaching is the reason. You know, the sal bug for me to go outside of. Once I'm there, it's free. I get to walk in every day. It's free. I don't get, I don't get charged.But the, the, the. The deal I have where they have with all of the tires is there's two seats on the other side of the. Where you're tying.Somebody walks up and wants to learn how to tie that fly that you're doing. Teach them. That's the only rule.

Henry Cowen01:12:09

And great seafood to boot for dinner.

Allen Rupp01:12:13

Yeah. The Gulf Coast Classic has. We have found a couple of good places.

Henry Cowen01:12:17

I can only imagine you're not going to get any better. Any fresher grouper than down there.

Allen Rupp01:12:23

Yeah. I will say that the, the Dave's, the. The air jet Minnow hooked its first alligator down there this year.

Henry Cowen01:12:30

Nice.

Allen Rupp01:12:31

Yeah. Jeff Riley hooked an alligator with. Was small. It was only like six or seven feet, he said.And I was like glad we didn't play around with that thing too much.

Marvin Cash01:12:41

So very neat. So Alan, if folks wanted to follow your adventures at the Vice on the water or reach out about flies or classes. Where should they go?

Allen Rupp01:12:51

Website's pretty easy. It's flyonthewater.com social media, Instagram, it's fly on the underscore water. And then on Facebook, it's bespoke flies.But you can also type in fly on the water there and it'll come up.

Marvin Cash01:13:03

Well, there you go. How about you, Henry? If folks want to, you know, know about all things sodium free striper, where should they go?

Henry Cowen01:13:09

Well, they can go to the website at Henry Cowan. Fly fishing. C O w e n fly fishing.com if they want to book a trip or learn about it. If they really want to learn about it, just go buy the book.You know, fly fishing for freshwater stripers. That's all encompassing about how to find fish on a lake or a river. In general, it's geared to stripers, but it works for bass as well.And you know, Dave Whitlock wrote the forward to that thing, so that, that's. That's the. The easiest, least expensive way to learn.

Marvin Cash01:13:43

Yeah, there you go. You'll help you with your skyhorse royalties, right?

Henry Cowen01:13:47

Yeah.

Marvin Cash01:13:48

Yeah.

Henry Cowen01:13:48

I'm trying to sell you. Five years later, I'm still in arrears of $800, you know, so I will.

Marvin Cash01:13:56

Drop all that stuff in the show notes.And guys, I really appreciate you spending the time with me, but also, you know, sharing your memories about a very, very special person in the sport.

Henry Cowen01:14:05

Well, thanks for having us, Marvin. Appreciate it. Alan, it's always good seeing you.

Allen Rupp01:14:10

You too, my friend.

Marvin Cash01:14:11

Take care, fellas.

Allen Rupp01:14:13

Thank you. Bye.

Henry Cowen01:14:13

Bye.

Marvin Cash01:14:14

Well, folks, we hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Don't forget to check out the links to all of this episode's sponsors in the show notes. Tight lines, everybody.