S7, Ep 76: From Repetition to Retention: The Path to Mastery in Fly Casting

EPISODE SUMMARY

Guest: Mac Brown - Master Casting Instructor/Author at Mac Brown Fly Fish and Fly Fishing Guide School (Bryson City, NC)

In this episode: Casting expert Mac Brown shares mastery frameworks for moving from conscious competence to unconscious competence in fly casting. Topics include the four stages of learning, retention versus performance focus, teaching methodology that emphasizes understanding the "why" behind techniques and overcoming performance anxiety through proper instruction.

Key fishing techniques covered: • Double haul casting technique • Curve casts and advanced line layout • Line control using multiple airspaces • Wet fly techniques with Davy Wotton • Advanced casting mechanics and body movement

Location focus: Bryson City area, Great Smoky Mountains National Park, Arkansas (North Arkansas Fly Fishers)

Target species: Trout (general discussion, not species-specific)

Equipment discussed: Casting rods and lines, wet fly patterns, general fly fishing gear (focus on technique over specific equipment)

Key questions answered: • How to build retention instead of just performance in casting • What causes performance anxiety and freezing in kinesthetic movements • How to practice casting with purpose and intention • Why understanding mechanics eliminates casting problems

Best for: Intermediate to advanced anglers interested in casting mastery, teaching methodology and building unconscious competence on the water

Marvin Cash00:00:04

Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly. We're back with another casting angles with the man himself, Mac Brown. Mac, how are you?

Mac Brown00:00:12

I'm doing great. How are you doing, Marvin?

Marvin Cash00:00:14

As always, just trying to stay out of trouble. How are things in your neck of the woods?

Mac Brown00:00:18

Well, we're in that transition right now from after Labor Day to where, you know, it's going to get a little bit slower in town for a month and it ends up being one of my favorite time of year is to go up in the park. You know, the park's not going to be near as crowded in the national park. So it's kind of nice having it slow down for a change.

Marvin Cash00:00:38

Yeah, and you got, we'll be stocking DH here at the beginning of October and we were talking before we started recording that we thought, you know, some people, some people fish through the summer and they go chase bass and panfish and stuff. But then some people just kind of take a break and they kind of get ready to get back into it for the fall.And you know, for those folks, you know, we've talked a lot about practicing with intention and all kinds of self improvement techniques, but we thought it might be helpful to talk about, you know, how to think about mastery of a particular task.

Mac Brown00:01:04

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good, a really good lofty goal for sure is try to get to the, you know, work through the four stages of, you know, basically four stages of learning to where people can start to, to act without putting thought process in, you know, like a flow state kind of thing. And that's when usually people are at their best with any type of kinesthetic movement is when they don't think about it, they just do.And of course that comes through, you know, repetition and actually practicing things to where you don't have to try to think about how you're going to do something on the water and that that's a big difference. And yeah, so that's kind of what we were talking about before we started too.Just, you know, I think about this a lot with, in teaching lessons and things and on the road with educational things, Marvin, that, you know, a lot of when I was 20 years old, the difference is if you were given somebody, let's say whatever task it is, say it's going to curve or learning to double haul or whatever it might be, and the older you get, you start realizing that's not even, that's just the performance of a certain skill versus the retention of that skill. So that's kind of where I'm at at this age. A lot thinking about retention way more than I am saying, oh, look at, look at George. He just did this.And, you know, then you look at George five minutes later, and he's totally lost it again because it's not in a flow state. He's thinking too much. And usually their mind comes into play. And that's where.That's why, you know, getting the repetitions even that we talk about, you have to have really good days and bad days to start to appreciate retention, you know?

Marvin Cash00:02:40

Yeah. And you kind of have to break it down into kind of teacher and student. Right.And so, you know, when you're teaching, because we always talk about having a goal, like, what's it for?So, you know, as the teacher, you want to be really reductive, but also too, you know, your goal is if you teach someone to perform the task on Monday, you want to know that when they're not with you on Saturday, that they can still perform that task.

Mac Brown00:03:02

That's right. And I think the only way that really works is. Is. Is covering the where, when, you know, the how, why, what?I mean, when people start to understand why something works the way it does, even if kinesthetically, they're lagging behind, but they understand how it works, they'll get there as far as retention. But if. If we don't have those. Those other things in retention, I mean, what happens a lot in kinesthetic sports is. Is really performance.A lot of times, performance anxiety. You know, with the act of, you know, people will freeze joints and you show them a whole motion of what you want their whole body to do.Next thing you know, they're just bicep and tricep casting it like a lollipop rainbow. And it's like nothing's clicking. But there's a good example of. Of freezing because they didn't.They didn't do the motion they're supposed to do because then they're. They're actually using a freezing type.Blocking it blocks the body from opening up and using their whole body, you know, and that goes away once, Once people start to understand the, you know, the where, when, why, what, and how things work, then the, you know, the freezing and all of that stuff disappears entirely. And that. What. That's where they're getting towards mastery, as you call it. Yeah.

Marvin Cash00:04:19

And I'd say too, like on the student end, you know, when you're on the practice field, you know, you know, if you can go out and repeat the Task, you know, three or four times on different days, you probably might be time for you to kind of move on to master the next thing, right?

Mac Brown00:04:33

Oh, yeah, yeah. Once you get consistency, then it's time to look to the next thing. I mean, that's a great, that's a good way to look at it.Just because, just because, like in curves and, you know, advanced line layout and control, there's a lot of ways to throw those, you know, and it's, it's like you master it one way, you do that a few weeks and it starts to click. We'll go to step two and then play with that one. And if that one gives you trouble, go back and make sure you still got step one.Then after a while you're on step four and before you know it, that's how you're kind of building your, your mastery of, of line control. People always ask, well, why can't I just use one? Well, that's really self explanatory because they all use different airspaces.And what happens when you got five of those airspaces blocked with trees or cover or that kind of thing? Well, now we need a sixth one. You know, that's what makes people go back home and think, well, what do I need to do now?But yeah, that's the reason there's so many.

Marvin Cash00:05:33

Yeah, because I mean, it's interesting too, right?Because it sounds complicated, but actually if you take this approach, it makes it simpler because you're not having to remember, you know, here I am, I want to do an upstream min, because this is what the current's doing and this is where the fish is. And you know, and I think that's actually, you and I have talked about this a lot.It's kind of a knock we have on kind of the way people teach people. It's also kind of a lot of the stuff you see on social media.But if people want started to just understand the basic mechanics of the cast, kind of like that class that we put together, life on the water would be infinitely easier.

Mac Brown00:06:06

Oh yeah, yeah, it is. Definitely is. Hey, congratulations to Marvin for, for the Outdoor Writer Association. You want to tell us a little bit about speaking over there?

Marvin Cash00:06:18

Oh, yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah. So we had to skip. It's actually been a month, I guess, Max, since we spoke.And it's because, I guess two weeks ago I was in Chattanooga at the OW Annual meeting and I was fortunate enough to win first place in the podcast radio category in fishing for an interview I did with Andy Mill last year. So super Excited about that. That's always awesome.But then I was also excited because I was actually one of their keynote speakers and workshop teachers and spoke a lot about how to authentically use AI in your work process. So it was pretty cool. It was a lot of fun. And, you know, obviously I'm super honored with the recognition.

Mac Brown00:06:57

Oh, yeah, well, that's, that's a big. That's a big honor for sure. And before we go on into the teaching stuff deeper as well, I wanted to express our condolences there.You know, we lost a lot of legends in our sport since I talked to you last week.And AK Best, Flip Powlett and Rick Shelton from Birmingham, all, all were, you know, big, big into the sport of fly fishing for years and gave us a lot of, A lot of the nuggets that we hold on to today. So our hearts go out to their family and friends and wanted to mention that too, because that's a huge loss to our sport.

Marvin Cash00:07:34

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's kind of amazing, you know, the luminaries of fly fishing we've lost over the last, I don't know, two to three years. Right?

Mac Brown00:07:44

Yeah, yeah. It's just. That's really, really unfortunate. You know, Rick was.He helped us a lot down there out of Birmingham with the, with the Loop as an assistant editor for that, and he was getting ready to take his master's test and he was definitely really changing a lot of the, A lot of the casting events for the Southeastern Council throughout the South. I mean, he was really, really helping teach a lot. And he was, he was the epitome of a.Somebody that was going after, you know, becoming a world class teacher for sure. And so that was a huge, you know, shock with what happened, you know, with him. So. Yeah, I just wanted to bring that up too.

Marvin Cash00:08:24

Yeah.And it's amazing too, you know, seeing the outpouring for Flip on social media, how many people he touched and how many people he brought into the sport either as anglers or become guides or outfitters or industry people. Just absolutely amazing.

Mac Brown00:08:40

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I read a really good. A good write up and I know that from talking with him before, but he was. The Flip was the real deal. I mean, as far as a hunter.I mean, he liked to hunt, he liked to fish, and he really understood the balance of. One of the best things I think I learned off of Flip over the years was talking about, you know, the resources and infinite.And with technology, this technology, you know, keeps getting bigger and bigger with like, apply it to bass fishing. Okay. You Got sonar, you got people spending 30 grand on electronics that know exactly where the fish is. Where's the sport in that?So I, I tend to agree heavily with Flip. The more we keep getting more and more advanced, when are we gonna draw the line on going back and doing it? Doing it Primitive, I call primitive.Fly fishing's about as primitive as you can get. You know what I mean? You look at water, you read the water, you make a cast. And if fish is there, Lord willing, it, it eats.But I don't know, I'm pretty strongly opinionated in the fact that when we get all this technology, I mean, are we going to start hunting, you know, deer and gazelle and everything else with drones and drop a net from the air?Are we going to go out with archery, you know what I mean, and just sit and do it like years ago, I mean, he had a lot of really good opinions about that kind of stuff. And I think he, he's really the first person that I know that brought that up a lot.

Marvin Cash00:10:04

Yeah. And I would say, you know, AK best was a tire's tire for sure.

Mac Brown00:10:09

Oh yeah, yeah, with dying. And we used to read a lot of AK stuff, you know, three decades ago and it learned a lot of stuff about dying with vineyard dyes.And then of course Davey's help helped me a lot with, with that too. The vineyard dies of course, coming out of the UK and. But that's where I first got my interest from. It was from AK's books back then.And of course I'd see him at the shows, you know, since back in the early 90s, AK used to come to a lot of the shows and he'd be like featured tire and that kind of thing. So I got to spend a lot of time with him on the road and yeah, he definitely offered a huge amount of innovation there for tires worldwide. Yeah.

Marvin Cash00:10:49

And you mentioned Davey. You know, this is a great segue to get us to talk about your classes. You've got a casting school, a guide school and then I guess probably.Probably what? In about six weeks you're going to be down in Arkansas teaching with Davey, right?

Mac Brown00:11:02

That's right. We'd have a wet fly boot camp and we're going to cover, you know, some dry fly and nymphing techniques as well.But most of it definitely will favor heavy into the wet fly game. That's October 24 to 26. And then we got a school here, five day school, the 15th of October to the 19th.And the casting school's about, I mean I could I could maybe take one. There's one guy that was going to sign up, like, weeks ago, and he keeps saying he got check on the date.So, I mean, I probably got one spot left for 13th September to the 14th for the advanced line control class here in Bryson City.

Marvin Cash00:11:41

Well, got it. And, you know, folks can just go to your website and check all that stuff out.And then, you know, they can get in the boat, too, if they want to reach out, probably. I know you're an email man or smoke signals, you don't like social media, so we'll encourage people to reach out that way.And it's almost pumpkin spice latte time. And folks, as I always say, yo, it's yourself to get out there and catch a few tight lines, everybody. Tight lines, Matt, Tight lines.

Mac Brown00:12:06

Margaret.