S8, Ep 20: Behind the Scenes: Mark Melnyk's Adventure with The New Fly Fisher

Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. On this episode, I'm joined by Mark Melnyk, the driving force behind The New Fly Fisher. Mark shares his serendipitous journey to The New Fly Fisher, we take a look behind the scenes and Mark gives us a sneak peek at upcoming episodes. I think you're really going to enjoy this one. But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items.If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcast app of your choice. It really helps us out. And finally, a shout out to our sponsor, TroutRoutes.We all know streams and rivers are getting crowded and chances are you're not the only one at your local access point. Get away from the crowds and busy gravel lights by using TroutRoutes Pro.With over 350,000 access points mapped across 50,000 trout streams and much more, TroutRoutes has all the data you need to help you find angling opportunities that others will overlook. Up your game and download the app today. Use code ArtFly20. ArtFly20 All one word for 20% off of your TroutRoutes Pro membership at maps.troutroutes.com now on to our interview. Well, Mark, welcome to The Articulate Fly.

Thanks for having me, Marvin. Appreciate it.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. And you always like to ground these interviews and asking our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

Yeah, you know I, I was thinking about that leading up to this and, and I think the real first fishing memory I have, when I was a kid I'd spend my summers up at my grandparents cottage on Georgian Bay. And it's, it's a fantastic pike, muskie, smallmouth bass, walleye fishery.And you know, before, before the regular kids came up for the summer, I'd be up there on weekends and sometimes the kids weren't around so I'd preoccupy my time by fishing off the dock. So I'd have a little, you know, spin caster or, or whatever those little kid kid rod and reels are called.And I tie a leader on and a MEPs and I just sit on the dock and I just, you know, watch that MEPs spin in the water. And one afternoon I was doing that and a giant northern came up from under the dock and ate it and I called for my grandparents up at the cottage.It's quite a little hike up the rock to get to the, to the cabin and get the net. Get the net. And they just thought I was total, you Know, kind of thing.And then when they saw that this little Zebco spin caster was doubled over, they came flying down and the end of the story was a five year old kid with a, you know, 12 pound northern pike on a stringer. And it was, that was the, that was the fish that got me hooked. Marvin. That was, I was scared and exhilarated as I think I've ever been.It was, it was pretty awesome.

Yeah, that's super neat. So when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing?

Yeah, my, my parents divorced when I was 4 and my mom remarried when I was 12 and we moved to this, this place that had access to a local creek river really close to the house.And one day I was down there at the park and I saw these guys whipping these, you know, whippy sticks around and I went up and asked them, what is that? Well, it's fly fishing. And I was about 12 years old and I asked him, where do I, where do I buy a fly fishing rod that looks fun?And they said, we'll go to your local Canadian tire, which kind of, kind of like a catch all for anything. You get marriage licenses and guns and you know, tires and all that kind of stuff.And so my first fly rod for stream trout, stream rainbows, browns and brookies that are only, you know, 8 inches, 8 inches big if, if we're lucky, was a, a Royal Coachman 8 weight. I bought, I bought an 8 weight of my first fly rod. Didn't know how to, didn't know what to do. Tied the fly line right to the reel, no backing.Went and bought a how to fly tying kit and started tying my own nymphs and started catching these little rainbows, browns and brookies on this little river that was real close to the house. So it was, I taught myself a lot of bad lessons in those years, I'll tell you that much for free. I didn't have any guidance at all.You know, all my family were conventional anglers and, and yeah, it was just pile by fire. And what a rush though, when you, you catch your first fish on the first fly you tied. It was I, I can remember that, that brown trout for sure.

Yeah. And that's all pre Internet too, which is a totally different way to figure things out.

Exactly.

Yeah, it's, it's funny.So you know, if we talk about maybe mentorship, like up until you started working on the new fly fisher, who are some of the folks that kind of mentored you on that fly fishing journey and what do they teach you,

well, you know, I, I, I kind of fell into, so to back up a little bit, I fly fished a little bit when I started at 12, and then, you know, got into high school and started doing other sports and rugby and swimming and, and, and things like that. And the fly rod got put away for a while. Then I went to university and drank beer and chased girls and, and the fly rod stayed away for that.And then, you know, graduating university, you start your career and you know, so I didn't really pick up fly fishing again until around, I think around 2010. So I went a long time without having to fly right in my hand.I would still, I would still fish on weekends at, at my family cottage, but, you know, I didn't, it wasn't until I was doing a series called Real Road Trip, Real Jobs and guided those three TV series that I was starting to run with some pretty exceptional, you know, fly fishers.You know, there's, there's a, a guide in, in Key West, Florida, permit guide named Will Benson and you know, did a story on him and did, you know, did a story on Mike Gordon who owns, you know, a lodge up in Alaska and fishes for permit down in the Keys as well. And, and those guys really kind of helped me refine, refine what I was doing.I remember a trip to the Bahamas fishing with Black Fly Lodge, and the owner, you know, took me aside and said, your cast was a mess. Let's work on this. And, you know, he gave me my first real fly fishing lesson.Plant Kemp is his name, and he, you know, straightened out my cast pretty quick. And I mean, the fundamentals were there, but there's just little things that screw everything up and. Yeah.And then, you know, when I was working in television, met Colin McCune from the New Fly Fisher and we started becoming friends and he helped, he helped me produce a lot of those series. And he was a, he was a real mentor to me as well.So, you know, before the New Fly Fisher, my mentors were all, you know, professional guides, which was, which was, you know, proud by fire for sure. And a great learning curve.

Yeah.And which to kind of put that in context for folks, that means you really kind of came back to fly fishing only a couple years before you did those few episodes for the New Fly Fisher, right?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it was only by necessity that I had to have a fly ride in my hand because of the shows that I was, that I was hosting.A lot of the people that we were featuring were fly anglers. So you'd Be out there. And it's just like downhill skiing, right?When I was a skiing coach, I was taught something in my early career that, you know, only ski with people that are better than you because you learn by osmosis, you learn by watching, you learn by. And it's the same in fly fishing. You always fish with people that are better than you are.Sounds a little snooty now that I say it out loud, but, you know, we fish with everybody, but you know, you try, you try to watch these excellent casters and these excellent anglers and you, you do, you learn a lot by just simply watching and being a part of that experience.

Yeah, it's funny you say that. I was just talking to someone not too long ago about they were signing up for fly tying classes at the fly fishing shows.And I was like, you know, just the tricks that you learn in a class or worth the price of admission. I mean, that's the game changing stuff, right?

100. 100. Yeah.

And if we, you know, if we shift gears a little bit and we kind of go to your broadcasting career, you know, we can really kind of say that broadcasting was in your blood. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. I was fortunate enough. My, my father started in radio when he was 19 years old and worked at a, at a, at a station in Toronto, Ontario.And you know, when he was 19 years old, he was actually Billboard magazine's broadcaster of the year for the world. Right.So, you know, and then he went on from, from radio into television and sports television and I kind of grew up around sports figures and hockey players and, and that sort of thing.And, and he always told me, never, never get involved in television because, you know, broadcasts will take you away from your family and you won't ever be at home and you're life will end up like mine and a divorce and, you know, so I, of course, being a teenager, of course I gravitated to it and. Because he told me not to. Yeah.So, you know, my first time in a production truck for an NHL hockey game, I was five years old and just seeing all the director and the producer and all the people yelling and screaming at each other and having 50 monitors on the screen and buttons flying and all this sort of stuff, I was addicted by it. Um, so in my final year at university, I took outdoor recreation, parks and rec. I wanted to be an ecotourism business owner. And I said, screw this.And I fast tracked my degree, finished, finished the next semester and got a job that, that spring working for tsn, which is the equivalent of ESPN in the States as a showrunner for the World Nordic Games in I believe 1996, 1995 or 1996, and hit it off really well with one of the producers. And he said, you know, if you, if you need a job when you're done school, give me a call and if I have something for you, I'll bring you on.So I did and started doing highlight packs for Major League baseball and, and, and hockey games.You know, you're sitting in a, in a room with a bunch of guys and you're responsible for three, for three or four games a night to write the scripts and do the highlight packs and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, so that was my intro to tv.And it's been a fantastic road ever since, you know, making 110 bucks a day and scraping by and actually 110 bucks was for the guys who actually got to build the teases for the hockey game. The highlight pack guys only made 60 bucks a day. So I was living at home with my parents and yeah, it was a struggle, I'll tell you that.

Yeah, it's pretty neat too. But I mean, that's also like, I mean, light years away from fly fishing. Right.So you know, why don't we, you know, and I mean, you've done some amazing stuff. You've got like rodeo stuff, you've got western rocky lifestyle stuff, you've got bull riding stuff.You know, why don't you kind of, you know, walk through.I think people would be really interested in kind of that journey, but also too kind of, you know, the adversity and the serendipity that kind of got you, you know, sitting here doing a zoom with me as the executive producer of the new fly fisher.

Yeah, so, so when I was at tsn, I was offered a job to help launch a new channel called Animal Planet that was, that's run by Discovery Channel. And I worked on Animal Planet for a number of years, sort of working on their graphics packages and all that boring stuff.And then after that I was laid off, which happens a lot in television. And I ended up at a job with Outdoor Life Network, oln.And while I was doing ol and we started with adventure extreme sports shows, so we'd run around and do all these extreme sports. And I was a stunt double and a producer.And one afternoon sitting in the office, this ginger haired guy walked in and went into my boss's office and sat down. And an hour later he popped out and I met, I met him and it happened to be Colin McEwan.And he was there pitching the very first episode of the new Fly Fisher. And that was 25 years ago, almost 26 years ago. And I met Colin Men and didn't think anything of it.Went on and as you said, did rodeo and bull riding events for eight years and traveled with cowboys and you know, produced PBR events for TV and Calvary Stampede and did the Half Mile of Hell, which is a documentary chuck wagon series on the life of chuck wagon drivers. Um, and then once again, the network decided they were going to leave the western lifestyle. So I got laid off.One of the guys that I started at TSN with was now starting was the program director at a brand new network called WFN World Fishing Network.And he knew how much I love to fish because he, you know, he'd see my reverse raccoon tan every Monday, you know, after fishing on the water all the time. And he called me over to WFN and said, do you, you are interested in working for the fishing network? Said, I can't, I don't have a job.So yeah, why not? He said, but I've got one caveat that I want you to produce fishing shows that don't have any fishing in them.It's like, what are you, Cory, what are you talking about? Like, how do you. He's like, here's $10,000.I want you to go to Minnesota St. Paul area and come back with 10 industry stories about fishing in Minnesota. So I was like, okay. So I got on my horse and I started researching and everything, realizing, Marvin, that this was in February.He was sending me to Minnesota in February. So of course I did an ice fishing segment.And, and I, I, in my research, I found that there was a gentleman that used to own the Minnesota Vikings and he also owned the FLW tour and he owns ranger boats and a variety of other boat companies. So I ended up getting an interview with him. And that was just at as the economic crash started of 2008.And I came back with these 10 stories and I had to do on cameras to introduce the stories. And of course, like, man, these are good. How about we give you your own show? It's called Real Road Trip.I want you to travel around the states and provinces in North America and find the non fishing stories that, that are in each state. An angler, a conservation story, a unique story, and a species story to round it. It was like a magazine type show.So I would run around and do these shows and come back with, you know, shows that didn't have Any fishing, like physical fishing in them, which was killing me because I'm going to the Bahamas and the Keys and all these places that are so legendary for anglers. And I finally said, screw it, I'm bringing a fishing rod with me every trip I go.So after two years of doing that show, Corey took me out for a drink and said, I told you I didn't want any fishing in these shows. He put fishing in them. I know I can't stop you. So I'm going to send you on a new series called Real Jobs. A total ripoff of Micro's Dirty Jobs.

Right.

So I ran around and did all these stories of the, the, the jobs of the fishing industry.Everything from crabbing in the North Atlantic to making chum in San Diego and fly fishing for mako sharks and, and you know, being a professional, a professional bass angler working in a hatchery, all these things. But I kept bringing my fishing rod with me. After two years of that, I went to Corey and I said, you know what man?I'm, I'm seeing so many guides in this, in this job and they have so many unique stories to tell about how they became guides and how they are gu.Let's do this show where I will go and do an interview based biography of these guides and tell their story about, you know, how they got to where they are and their ups and downs. And that was the most fun show I ever did, you know, telling people stories.I'm a storyteller by heart from starting at tsm, telling stories of professional athletes. This was, this was a perfect mix of that.And anglers are no different than cowboys in that they're the generally the nicest people in the world and they give you their shirts off, off their back. So it was a nice meld of the, of the two sports that I really, really love to do in, in fishing.And then after two years of that, of course I got laid off again.It happens in tv, you know, you always get cut down at your, at your best gig, whether you're making too much money or the networks gets old or what have you. It's not, it's not a issue of performance, it's just the nature of the business.So Colin heard that I had been laid off and I hadn't, I had worked for a long time. And he called me and said, hey, I know you started fly fishing. Would you like to host a couple of episodes? AKA keep the wolves away from the door?Right. So he brought me on as a, as really a new fly fisher. And I, I think I hosted six or seven episodes that season. Then he fired me for his daughter.So I was out of work again and I went three years, Marvin, without even be being able to get an interview in tv. I mean it was just, you know, young kids are coming in, doing it for half the price.Even the guys that I started with who were executives at this time are like, sorry Mark, you're in trouble here. He's like, you gotta find something new anyway. And then the new fly fisher fell on my lap and became partner at the new fly fisher.And I actually forget what your question was now.

Yeah, well, it actually works out perfectly because we kind of ran through the question where, exactly where we need to be.And you know, I think the interesting thing is, sounds like you probably got laid off almost a half a dozen times probably before you got to the new fly fisher and you were out, you were out of work for almost three years. And you know, in some ways, you know, getting kicked in the teeth that much makes you tougher, but you kind of have to learn that resilience.So kind of like how did you learn that and kind of what was the closest kind of in the last? I guess, what would that be the last, I guess the first 20 years of your career from walking away from broadcasting and doing something different?

Yeah, so, so during those three years I, I had, I had to invent something and to, to you know, to keep some money coming in. So I ended up doing a show up on, on a, on a really remote river up in northern Ontario, Canada, fishing for big brook trout.And I'm talking big brook trail, like brook trout that are pushing double digits in, in, in weight. And I, you know, came back from doing that show and I said to the owner, I said, do you understand what you've got going on here?You don't have anybody fishing these rivers and you've got a plane. You know, let's, let's work, let's develop a, a brook trip program for world class brookies in the river.So I, I consulted with a lot of the aboriginal elders that used to fish those rivers when they were young. And we'd sit and look at a paper map and, and you know, find out, find a river. The elders would tell me what they thought of it.We jump in the beaver, go explore that river and, and deem it, whether or not it was, it was well enough, would fish well enough to be in part a part of the program. So that, that was kind of what I had to, to invent and I Did that for a couple years. You know, the program was great.You know, people catching giant, giant brook trout regularly. And then I got laid off again. And when I got laid off that last time, I really had to reevaluate where I was going in my career.And, you know, I had small. I had a young family. Times were tough. My wife. My wife supported me through everything and was.Was coming to the end of a rope, understandably, about bills and, you know, mortgages and all that sort of stuff. And I said, okay, I'm going to go back to school. I come from a family of teachers. I'm going to go to go get my master's of education.And so I got all my paperwork in order and my transcripts and everything, and I sat down at the computer with my credit card and I typed in all the information that I needed to do for the application, put the credit card number in, and my finger hovered over the enter button, the submit button. And I went to hit submit, and I moved up and I hit delete. And at that point I said to myself, mark, you're a TV guy. You've always been a TV guy.You got to stick this out and you got to make it happen. So about three months after that, I got a phone call from Colin. He's like, mark, he says, I want to diversify my productions.And being a past naval captain and doing military shows. He said he wanted to get back into military programming. And he offered me 50% or he offered me a hundred percent of the new Fly Fish.I said, well, Colin, how does that look like? You're the face of the network. You're the business guy for the show. You're the business guy, you know. He said, I'll just sell you a hundred percent.I'll sit with you for a couple months to get you up to speed, and it, it'll be yours. I said, I'm not interested. Not interested at all. That is a recipe for disaster. I don't know the business. All the.All the productions I ever did were funded by the network. I didn't have to go and chase money. I was given free reign to do whatever I want at those networks. And so I said no.A couple weeks later, he called me. He said, I've got Heather, his wife, on the line. Go get Jennifer, my wife, and we need to have a chat. So he sat down and the four of us talked.And the ultimate offer was 50% ownership. And we would. He would stay on for two years to, to steer me through the. The business side of It And Jen and I convened and said, you got a deal.Let's do this. Well, little did we know that Covid would, would come into play. And those two years span to seven, where, where we were still 50, 50 partners. Yeah.And you know, in June of 2024, we sealed the deal. I took over 100% and it's, it's been, it's been a, it's been a great ride from there.But the, the lowest part to get back to your question is that hovering over the accept or submit button and going to the wheat. And I'll tell you, man, I shed many tears that night because the fear of what am I going to do now? Was so overwhelming.But my, my gut and my heart said, you got, you got to stay in television, got to figure it out. And we did.

Yeah, it's an amazing thing. I mean, I think, you know, as you get older, you kind of can see those like, forks in the road a lot more clearly.

Right.

And kind of like how different your life would be. You know, first of all, we wouldn't be talking. You'd be teaching something.

Right. And I'm happy probably.

Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting thing. Right.And, and yeah, I mean I kind of went through a similar experience with the kind of the Great Recession and I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you now if it wasn't for that. So. Yeah, it's amazing stuff.You know, the interesting thing too though is, you know, and I can remember watching those very early episodes because you're almost like, hi, I'm Mark Melnick, I'm kind of the gear guy. I'm here fly fishing with the new fly fisher. Right.You know, how was it kind of going from, you know, a not a super experienced flyingler to an experienced flyingler over kind of the, you know, the arc of your time so far with the show and kind of how did that impact your approach and kind of the content you created?

So the first couple of years were really, as a host were really nerve wracking because I'm a very self conscious person. I bruise very easily.And it's, it's one of those things where you got Internet trolls that, that rip you apart and are merciless in, in what, in what they, they say and what they do. And, and it was, it was really, it was really tough to, to, to, to watch that happen and to read that stuff and you know, it's, it.But it's, it's kind of like you gotta find your own confidence and the fact that Colin believed enough in me to keep me on the show was the confidence that I needed to. To be able to keep going amidst the learning curve. Remember, the show is called the New Fly Fisher, after all.And you know, everybody that fly fishes, no matter how experienced you are, it. There's always something new that, that comes to you. So Colin was a, Was a huge help in that.And, and then the guides that I would, I would fish with and, and the outfitters were, Were wonderful because the genesis of the show is education. So if I can, if I can learn from a guide, if I can be the avenue of. Of in information from the guide to the viewer, then it's a success.And it doesn't. Like I always say, fish don't matter what your cast look like. You know, it's, it's. It. I. I transform my mind frame to, to think of it that way.And then by fishing with all these fantastic outfitters and lodges and guides, your learning curve doubles over backwards. And. And it's just one of those things that, you know, just like downhill skiing, the more you practice, the better you get.I mean, even today, Marvin, I've got. Well, not now, because I got 3.3ft of snow on the lawn, but I've got fly rods that are always rigged in my backyard.And if I'm having a stressful day, I'll go cast for an hour, right? I'll just cast on the lawn. I'll try to.Try to put the fly close to my chickens kind of thing and watch them run around and then hit it again kind of deal. Yeah, so it. The early days were tough, but I had a support network that showed me that it's okay to fuck up, it's okay to, to.To get tangled and to land in trees and, and to lose giant fish and all that stuff. So, yeah, it's been interesting. It's been interesting.

Very neat. You know, it's kind of funny.Cause I was thinking when I was preparing for the interview, the first time I met Colin and Bill was the one year that the fly fishing show was in Raleigh at the fairgrounds. And I can remember this would have been, gosh, I don't know, I was just ballparking it maybe 15 years, give or take, right?And I can remember talking to Colin about the production qualities. Like what we're targeting right now is we want to be able to have the new Fly fisher on public broadcasting stations, which was really different.But I think the show's even more different than that.And it's certainly very different than Kind of your traditional go sit in a ranger, rip the face off a bunch of largemouth bass and then, you know, plug some sponsor stuff and go home.Talk to me a little bit about kind of how the new fly fisher is different kind of from a production design and philosophy and kind of how you're different from other, let's say, quote fishing shows.

Yeah, yeah, it's a great question.And, and I think what separates the new fly fisher from, from most others is the fact that we, we, we've never deviated from the original concept of the, of the series, which is based in education and conservation. Right.So as, as fly fishers as you know, we have a huge responsibility to, to conserve our waters, look after land that our waters run through and offer the avenue of education for the younger up and coming fly fishers to be able to access the sport. You know, I believe long gone are the days of, of the elitist, the elite imagery of fly fishing.When you see kids on BMX bikes going down to the harbor, you know, in an urban center with fly rods sticking out of their backpacks, kind of thing like, that's a win. That's a win for us. The other thing that, that sets us apart is our production value.I take great pride in the best possible production value we can offer our viewers. And, and we have some of the finest camera people and technical people behind the scenes that really take pride in, in, in what they do.One of my camera guys, the guy who's been with us the longest, he, he's never picked up a fly rod. He doesn't fish, but he's a storyteller at heart.He's, he's a documentary producer, director and he, he helps, they all help me with this, with the storytelling. The fact that we are non combative in any way. We have open, we have an open book policy with respect to the education that we give our viewers.There are no secrets. You know, we show the flies that are working, we show the techniques that are working, we show the techniques where we screw up.We, you know, what we show in an episode of the New Fly Fisher is how a real day happens on the water for Joe Blow.And you know, and I take great pride in that because people that are looking for a destination to go fly fishing could call up one of our videos and say, and I can say to them, this is exactly what this might be like if you decide to go there.So, you know, an open book policy, great production value and the willingness to be, to be open with our viewers is what I believe to be the key to our success.

Very neat. And kind of focusing on the storytelling component. You know, you said storytelling's, you know, very important to you.You know, talk to me a little bit about your storytelling philosophy and why you think the storytelling is so critical to creating great content.

Yeah, another great question. So when I, when I arrived at the new Fly Fisher as a partner, the format was a 23 minute broadcast version of the show.And it was, and it was rooted, it was rooted solely in education and conservation with a little bit of travel into it. And, you know, Colin and I sat down and said, how can we make this better?And through my background of storytelling, you know, we sort of came to the idea that we've got this platform called YouTube where we can, where we can show extended play versions of our. Of our episodes. So people aren't are, you know, shackled by 20. A 23 minute version, which allows us to tell the story as it really happens.So what we do is as. As for anybody that watches tv, you know, whether they know it or not, there's four blocks to every show.Block one, commercial block two, commercial block three, commercial block four. And, and the format of our show is ideal for having a day in the life in every block.So day one is you get there, you get settled, you meet your guides, you know, you tour the lodge, you get to see the place, you go fishing. Day two is fishing. Day three is fishing. You know, day four is. Is the equipment used in fishing.So it's formulaic in that way, but it tells the story of arrival to departure and then all the good, bad and ugly that happen in between. And that's one of the things that our viewers tell us they love the most, is that they love to see people that are.Are thought of as, quote, unquote, professional fly fishers mess up because they can relate to it. Right. And there's no, there's no ego here. There's no, there's no ad like if I fall out of a boat, it's going in the show. Right. Because it's also.Is a good. It's what really happens. But it's also a good teaching moment as to why people should always wear a life jacket when they're.When they're fishing kind of thing. So we take those little moments of good, bad and indifferent and use those as teaching moments for our audience.And from the feedback that I get, they absolutely love it.

Yeah, I think too, as we kind of get more digital noise with all this AI stuff, I think that authenticity is more and more critical to kind of what I call sticky content.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And by sticking to the, the authentic side of it, AI can never take that away. Right.They can't take, they can't take emotion out of the, out of the, out of the equation. They can't take excitement out of the equation. It's, it's all natural, it's organic and it happens as it happens in real life.You know, our hosts don't put on a face when they catch a fish and, and over hype anything or anything like that. But like this is who they are. This is, that's who I am.I, I mean, I get genuinely excited when I hook a, you know, a 15 pound redfish versus a, you know, a bluegill on a spot, on a spider, on a spider fly. It's, it's just, it's just so fun that you can't, you can't fake it. As soon as you fake it, people see you right through them.The authenticity has got to be there.

Yeah. And I think too, I suspect most of my listeners have absolutely no idea how much work is involved in producing a single episode.And so I was kind of wondering if you could kind of walk us through that process, kind of soup to nuts, because I know you've got like the long YouTube version, there's everything that goes into that, but then cutting it down and repurposing it for all sorts of different delivery channels too.

Right? Yeah, exactly. So, so, so the work on an episode starts long before the first cast.So I'm currently off the road and I am home in the office for a number of months while we're in the office and not fishing.All the ancillary post production stuff is happening on the past season, but I'm working on the next season and then I get brought into the, to the, to the edits of the season before we do. 26 episodes a year.And the start, you know, the end of the winter, start of the spring is when I start to populate that next season's travel schedule.So once I have the travel schedule semi locked in, then I work on dates, flight bookings, all the, all the small details that we need to do to make sure that our camera people and our hosts are safe on the road. Then once we hit the road, it's a day of travel, four to five days on the water and a day of travel home or to the next location.Once, once a show is shot, it comes, it comes back. Once a show is shot, it is duplicated in the field. All the media is put on a separate drive so that we have two copies of everything.And then we get back to the office. The host has their, their copy of all the footage. The master footage goes back to the home office where another copy is made.And then the host will sit down and they will log every single shot describing what it is, color, code it based on a certain criteria that we've set forth as a formula. And that generally takes a week, a week to two weeks to go through all the footage and to code all that, to highlight what it is.You know, we highlight scenery, we highlight wildlife, we highlight fish catching scenes, we highlight bloopers, we highlight food, we highlight lodging, guide tips, all that sort of stuff. So it's real formulaic on how that's all organized. Once that's done, the host then starts building the show.And they build the show on something called a paper edit.So what they'll do is they'll go through their stack of papers from each card, from each day, from each camera, and they will start writing down the order in which they want the shows to run in or the show to run in. So openings on camera, this card, this clip, blah, blah, blah, all the way down to the closing scene. And that takes about two weeks to do as well.So once the paper edit's done and the voiceover is done, which is the voiceover is all the links to each, each segment that may have not been done in the field, then that whole package goes to an editor. That editor will start cutting the long version of the show. And that long version will be as however long as it needs to be.That long version will then go to our production manager for first set of eyes, and she will make notes on that, tighten it up, batten it out. Wrong music here. And you know, there's a technical glitch here. Whatever it needs to do goes back to the editor. Then it comes to me for final eyes.I will take one last look at it, approve it, or send notes back.And then it, once it's approved, it goes to the post audio editor after color correction, by the by the by, the editor goes to the post audio audio technician. They do all the audio mixing and everything on it. It goes back to Caitlin for finalizing approval.Once it's approved, then the shorter versions get cut of, of the episodes. So it's crazy, man. Like, think about cutting an hour and a half show down to 23 minutes like it's a hatchet job.The content's still great and broadcast quality, but it doesn't Tell the whole story in the way that we want it to be told. Then once those versions are done, we have finalized on that.And then the final version has to be delivered to the network at least two weeks before airing. So we have a rolling schedule of 26 episodes where shot listers, script writers, editors, and post audio all have to meet certain deadlines.If they don't, if that train falls off the tracks anywhere, we're screwed. We're absolutely screwed.So it's a really fine tightrope walk of being efficient and being able to put your head down and get it done based on the timeline so that we can make broadcast that broadcast window. So that's basically what happens. And then we do that times 26, right? It's 20, 26 times we do that process.I've got a number of great people on our team that understand that, you know, summertime's the quiet time when, you know, you can take vacation in August. Cause that's generally when we're super quiet. But, you know, we're fishing from April through to March, usually depending on locations.And for the editors, they know that, you know, come September through June, they have to have their head down and laser focused on delivering quality product.

Got it. And so for a host, you know, how many camera people and sound people and folks kind of travel on each shoot?

Yeah, good question. And, and one of the things that I'm really proud of is that we are a skeleton crew.There's a host and a camera person, and the host takes care of a lot of the camera work that, that the main camera person can't do in, in, in the moment.So, for example, if I'm on a shoot and camera guy's busy and I see a good drone opportunity, I'll fly the drone, I'll shoot underwater, I'll, I'll, you know, do anything. I'll make coffee for them, whatever. Whatever needs to be done. We're a skeleton crew of two people.Sometimes we have two hosts, depending on what the fisheries like.If we're fishing muskies, you know, we really want to make sure we have two rods in the water or two, two flies in the water at all times just to up the chances of, of hooking a fish. But generally it's just the two of us two.Hosting a camera person on the road, that really makes it interesting because you have to really get along because you're spending so much time together, often sharing a room, often, you know, in less than ideal conditions. If you aren't a do it yourself or the weather sucks or you know, any, any. As you know, anything can happen when you're out in the field.So you need people that can cohabitate, that get along. You know, we work hard, we play hard and we fish hard.So it's, it's a great, it's a great group of people that, that you know, has taken a long time to find, but it works out perfectly.

Very neat.And you know, I know folks can go to the website and see the host, but you kind of want to give a quick shout out to the folks that are kind of in front of the camera and behind the camera so people kind of understand just how, even though you're skinny on each shoot, how big your team is.

Yeah, for sure. So I, I do host, even though I'm, I'm in, in the office a lot, I do, I am fortunate enough to get out and host some shows.I brought on a steelhead guide here from Southern Ontario named Rob Heal. Rob is, is from Nova Scotia so he's got that maritime flare that, that is just so infectious. And he's a, a triple F fly casting instructor, a guide.He knows his way around a fly rod multi species. I don't have to worry about him. We've worked with him to be able to develop his storytelling abilities and he's worked out great.Jeff Parks is, is a little bit of an older, an older guy.He's starting to wind down, his guidance, his guiding career and I thought, you know, what a great opportunity for him to be able to stay in the industry he's in, he's in better shape than most 30 year olds are and he goes, goes, goes, goes. And he, he too is a multi species guide here in Ontario. He's got a daughter named Alex Parks who is an absolute firecracker.She, she's a motivational speaker, she's also a fishing guide and just is a, is an entrepreneur.So if you hear dropping, you know, rock and roll lines from the 70s during the show, that kind of tells you what, you know, what kind of person she is. She's a hoot, she's a professional photographer as well.So she, you know, she gets, she gets what the camera people are doing and is really able to help.And then we've got, we've got a couple, couple of guys that are, that are specialty and the one that's, that's been sort of a staple on the show for many years is, is a Stillwater expert out of Alberta named Phil Rowley. And Phil though he can, he's a great Great flyingler in, in moving water as well.But he's, he's made his life his life making a living fishing still water. And anybody such like fly fishing is a niche to begin with, but to fish a niche of a niche and making a living at it is just my hat's off to him.And you know, he's, he's been a fantastic partner in, in hosting for us for, for years. But I think the bottom line is, is, oh, I do have to say Bill Spicer is still part of the team though.Bill, Though Bill isn't on camera anymore due to some medical issues, he is still very much a part of the new fly fisher family. I keep him busy behind the scenes here and there with shot listing and scripting and helping helping out what we, what we may need.He's asking me if he can start a podcast series which we're considering as well for the new fly fisher. So Bill's still very much a part of what we do.And, and you know, you talk about mentors, you know, he was definitely one because I'd be in the field and I'll be having, having hell with, with a fishery. And he was always willing to, you know, to take a phone call and say, okay, what are you doing? What happened? What have you tried?Try this, try this, try this, try this. And 99% of the time his advice would, would pull the show out for us.So, and then we've got Tom Rosenbauer that, that, that joins me on a couple of choice trips a year where we, where we produce shows together and we also bang out the, the Tom's Tips for Orvis at the same time.So all the tips that you see on the new Fly Fisher Channel, the Orvis Guide to Fly Fishing Channel and the Orvis site are all done by the new Fly Fisher team in conjunction with Orvis. And it's just a great partnership.But Tom has been a fantastic mentor in, in my fly fishing career and he's, I think, I think the biggest thing that he's taught me is you don't have to make fly fishing complicated. Just go out there, do what you do what you like first, and then if you're, if you don't succeed, then you can worry about complications of the sport.It's really an easy sport to catch fish with. You can make it as complicated or as not as you want. So those are our hosts for this coming season.I'm excited for it and yeah, I think I've got a pretty strong team in place.

Very, very neat and you mentioned earlier in the interview that you became 100% owner in 2024 and was just kind of curious. You know, you're relatively, you know, you've been with the show for a long time, but relatively new.Being the 100% guy, you know, kind of what's your vision for the show moving forward and you know, you know, how do you plan to kind of evolve and honor Colin's legacy?

Yeah, yeah, we lost Colin about two months after we, we closed the deal. He passed away from a terminal cancer situation and we knew it was coming.But Colin really set me up for success with the new fly fisher and, and you know, I went to see him a couple days before he passed away to say our goodbyes and I promised him that I wouldn't change the core of the show as education and conservation. But what I am planning on doing is developing that documentary series even more and increasing our travel reach.So we, you know, we do a lot in North America, we do a lot in South America, Chile and Brazil.I want to increase our saltwater presence with the show and then start poking around in, in places like Ireland and Scotland and Northern Italy and Estonia and you know, one day hopefully getting down to, getting down to New Zealand and fish Australia and you know, really make it a, a worldwide fishing adventure show that people, I mean, we're distributed in many of those countries now, so people know, they know the show, they know, you know, they know what we do.But to showcase, you know, northern Italy marble trout, to showcase, you know, XYZ species and X, Y XYZ place that we've never been, I think is, is, is a great opportunity for the new fly fish to expand not only education but also our footprint globally.

Very, very neat. And kind of a, kind of a related follow up question.You know, to say that the media landscape has changed a ton in the last 25 years is a huge understatement. Right?Because I mean, 25 years ago you didn't have the option of like, well, it's as long as it needs to be, you know, what are some of the changes you've seen? But then, you know, also with the changes come challenges.You know, what do you see as kind of the, you know, the changes but as well as the challenges moving forward to kind of, you know, continue to stay in the game kind of at the level that you're playing now.

Right. So that's also a great question. This is a fun interview.I think the biggest change that I've seen in the last 25 years is, is Technology with respect to cameras.You know, when we first started shooting, shooting fishing, fishing shows for wfn, there was these big eng cameras that would sit on your shoulder and they were worth $350,000. And, and it was, you know, you had to have a separate truck for all your gear and, and, and so on and so forth.But today, I mean, I remember the first time I used a GoPro fishing Mako sharks in, in, in San Diego with Conway Bowman. And I had this epiphany that said, you know, this is a $500 camera. This is, this is a disposable camera.I can stick this thing in a shark's mouth and as long as I get the chip back and I, I can get that shot.So with today's technology, with DJI OSMO cans with drones, with action cams, you know, extended battery life on these things, it's really changed the landscape. I remember a time when it was 2000 bucks an hour to rent a helicopter.Right now you spend, you know, 1500 bucks, you got a drone, you can fly anywhere you want, pretty much. So, you know, the technology is, has been the biggest change, not only in camel camera gear, but also in fly fishing technology.And I think the biggest challenge is for us as creators is to keep increasing the production value. With these new cameras comes opportunity for bigger, better, stronger.And in order to have a team that stays on top of, that, stays on top of the tech that is able to effectively jump in with a brand new piece of technology and run with it is the biggest challenge. Moving forward.From the TV side, from the fly fishing side, I think our biggest challenge is, geez, just getting youth involved, getting, getting more people involved and, and, and spreading out the pressure on our rivers and lakes and, and looking after the resource and giving back. That's the biggest challenge on the fly fishing side, if you ask me.

On the monetization side, kind of anything in terms of like how things are financed and how they're monetized now and kind of that direction, because, I mean, you know, seems like kind of traditional cable TV's going away, right?

Yeah, it is, it is.And you know, Colin and I, two or three years ago at the Denver Fly Fishing show, were able to sit down with Simon Gosworth and Tom Rosenbauer and sort of bounce an idea off them, which to me at the time sounded absolutely crazy, which was, why are we working so hard in the endemic fly fishing space when the pie is only so big? There's a lot of people that are asking for money for fly Fishing films for productions, for gear for what have you. Why are we fighting that fight?If we put our collective brains together and come up with a business model that eliminates the need for endemic sponsorship, then we can play with everybody nicely in the sandbox and not stereotype ourselves as being allied with one. With one fly fishing manufacturer.And I think that was a huge step forward in opening the doors for other companies to utilize our platform to whether they have a new product coming out or just using their rods or their vests or their waders in a show for gentle product placement. Dropping the need to ask for money has gone miles, way further than I ever thought. Marvin. It would. I thought it would be a kiss of death. Right?But there's other ways to raise money and there's other ways to. To get around that nut that you need to be able to produce 26 episodes a year and keep 11 people employed and loving what they do. So, yeah, that.That was. That was the biggest. That was the biggest move that we did. And so far, touch wood, it's. It's. It's paid off.

Yeah, it's interesting you say that because kind of going back to the authenticity thing, I think people are smart enough to know that if it's not done that way, they're being sold to. Right.And, you know, my whole thing, like, and it's something I've worked really hard on the podcast is, you know, if I tell you to use something, it's because I'm spending my own money on it.

Right?

And I think, I think that's super valuable, you know, fly fishing for everything, Right?

Yeah, we're not nascar. I mean, we don't wear labels.It's all gentle product placement that gives awareness of what we're using because people are genuinely interested in the equipment and the clothing that we wear and the equipment that we use. And I think that instead of banging people over the head saying, you know, buy this, buy that, you know, it doesn't hurt us to have a different.A different rod in our hand, a different reel on our rod every week. It really doesn't. And it shows that, you know, yes, there's good product out there, we're using it.But, you know, what if, for example, instead of using the new Helios, if I'm using a, you know, Clearwater, you know, that's a great entry rod for. For somebody to. To get in. To get in and use. And if it's good enough for. For people to use in a TV show, man, it must be good enough for me.To, you know, butz around on my, on my back lake or my, or my, my backyard stream.

So yeah, in terms of kind of like pre production money and post production money.So for example, as opposed to like going to tourism people or, you know, something like that, you know, because I know one of the big things is like why YouTube doesn't work for networks, is they pay to produce it, but then they don't really get the direct revenue stream back.You know, what do you kind of see kind of in that mix between like, you know, getting paid for YouTube ad placements and other things kind of on the distribution side and on the front end. How has that changed?

It's, it's getting better actually.It, you know, the distribution side is, is fantastic in, in the sense that, you know, since the pandemic, there's been such a huge increase in interest for fly fishing that, you know, I get, I get a email from my distributor once every three months saying, hey, I just, you know, are you okay with if I sign a deal for Germany and Austria? You know, are you okay if I sign a deal with Ukraine? Are you okay if I. And absolutely. So those distribution models are definitely helpful in revenue.YouTube is helpful in revenue. But all those monies just go right back into the, into the production budget so that we can continue to create great content.I wish I could take my distribution money and put it towards something fun, but the fun thing that I choose to put that money towards is, is, is the production.And you know, the more money, the more money we can play with, the more freedom we have to create great content and keep those production values going up.

Very neat.And so as we kind of start to wind down, what should folks, kind of maybe some highlights for our listeners to be on the lookout for as the new episodes drop this season.

Yeah, so we've just started. We've delivered our first eight episodes from season 21.We've got some great content coming from Chile with Tom and I where we challenge the guides down there.We're there down there for two weeks fishing two different lodges and we challenge the guides to one fish waters that we have never seen before as, as flyingers. And the second part of each show is to find water that they have never fished before.So, you know, it's fun to go to new water as an angler, but it's really interesting to see how guides work when they've never been been to that body of water either.And, and how you have to work together in order to, to figure out the puzzle, you know, I've never had, I've never had a guide say to me on a body of water, can I see a rod? I want to try something. And I guess variantos. Who fish who? We fish very, very well together. We, we're, we're totally twins in our fishing philosophy.He's like, can I. Like this isn't working. There should be fish here. Can I try something? It's like, yeah man, go for it.And he put on this crazy contraption, xyz, which you'll see in the show.And sure enough, you know, 24 inch brown hair, you know, so it's, it's, it's those kinds of things that, that you know, I look forward to in these episodes coming up. We've got a bunch of Ontario shows that are on, on the docket. We've got a, a great big northern pike show up in Manitoba.We've got grayling, lake trout and arctic char in Saskatchewan. We do big brook trout and Atlantic salmon shows in Newfoundland and Labrador.We, we still do a lot of great content out of the American West, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana.I've just got this great new contact down in Colombia that I wanted that, that is very interested in having us come for peacock bass, payara, arowana, bakuda, all kinds of crazy jungle fish. And then they have a saltwater element there too.So a lot of pelagics like dolphin, marlin, sailfish and then they've got an inshore, inshore fishery and in tarpon and, and, and like mutton snappers and things like that and mangroves, all kinds of stuff. So um, and then looking forward to trying to get into Ireland, Scotland and, and, and the Dolomites up in Northern Italy.Um, yeah, so just there's all kinds of great stuff coming down the line. I'm going to try to step back from my hosting duties a little bit to be on the business development end.But I've tried that for years and it never happens. The, the, the lure of being in the field is just too much, Marvin. Especially when you're going with great guides and great locations and things.So yeah, lots to look forward to, that's for sure, 100%.

And so you know, where can folks find the show?

Yeah, so the best way to find us is on our YouTube channel, the new Fly Fisher YouTube channel.We've got thousands of videos up there, whether they be tips or full length episodes from multi species from many of the years that we've, we, that we've done it. That's the best way. That's where that's the way you can see the extended play versions.You can also find us on traditional broadcast on World Fishing Network WFN in the US and on Sportsman Channel Canada in, in Canada, as well as a bunch of regional channels around as well. And I don't know the international distribution channels, so we're also on mltv, I believe, which is a streaming service.Fish TV out of Britain, which is a streaming service. Yeah. So there's, we're. YouTube's the best one, though, for sure.

Got it. Anything else you want to share with our listeners before I let you hop this afternoon?

No, I think, I think one of the things that, you know, we talked about with, with respect to mentors is what I, what I, what I, what I have written down here, and I wanted to say when we were talking about it, is the support that, that we have from our families and doing what we do. You know, there are times when I'm gone for four to six months out of the year. You know, my kids are 20 and, and soon to be 17.And, you know, my wife Jen holds, holds down this fort while I'm out gallivanting and in, in great locations catching amazing species.And, you know, I, without her support throughout the years and, and having faith in what we do, she's not only my, my partner in life, but she's my partner here and in the new fly fisher and has my, she's a fantastic backstop, has my back for everything I do.And many of us in this industry, whether it's guiding, outfitting television or what have you, podcasting, traveling all over like you do, Marlon, without the support of your family behind you, you're, you're really doing it. It's, it's not worth it.So, yeah, that's, that's the only thing I wanted to add other than, you know, I want to thank our viewers for being so loyal over the years. Know, email's always open if anybody wants to contact me or any of our team. And lastly, Marvin, thanks for the opportunity.This was, this was a lot of fun. A lot of fun. I really enjoyed it.

Yeah, it's been a blast. I mean, it's kind of fun and, you know, hopefully our paths will cross before we get together again in November up in Pennsylvania.You know, if, if folks want to learn more about The New Fly Fisher, kind of follow your adventures on the water, where should they go?

You know, our Instagram. Instagram is updated weekly on, on the adventures of what we're doing, same as our Facebook page.One of our hopes, as I mentioned Alex Parks looks after the Instagram stuff and, and you know, we do a lot of collaboration with, with Orvis Scientific anglers and things like that.So if you, if you stay close to social media in the fly fishing space, chances are, you know, you'll be able to see what's going on that week where, where we're in the field or, or what have you and some of the fun things that, that we're up to. Yeah.So I think that's probably the best way to, to keep in touch and to keep abreast of what, what host is, where and what they're fishing for and, and all the fun stuff that goes along with it.

Absolutely. And I will drop links to all that stuff in the show notes.

Fantastic.

Well, listen, Mark, I super appreciate you making the time this afternoon.

My pleasure, Marvin. Let's, let's make sure to do it again.

Absolutely. Take care.

Thank you. You too.

Well, folks, we hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Don't forget to check out the links to all this episode sponsored monsters in the show notes. Tight lines, everybody.