S2, Ep 67: People of Bristol Bay - Tia Shoemaker of Grizzly Skins of Alaska

EPISODE SUMMARY

Guest: Tia Shoemaker - Second-generation hunting and fishing guide for Grizzly Skins of Alaska (Becharof National Wildlife Refuge, Alaska)

In this episode: Alaskan guide Tia Shoemaker shares her experiences growing up in the Alaskan bush and her family's opposition to the proposed Pebble Mine in Bristol Bay. Topics include subsistence lifestyle in remote Alaska, second-generation guiding business operations, the ecological importance of Bristol Bay salmon runs and the potential impacts of mining infrastructure on Alaska's hunting and fishing resources.

Key fishing techniques covered: • Czech nymphing techniques • Sockeye salmon fishing • Rainbow trout fishing with Moorish mouse patterns • Dolly Varden tactics • Arctic Grayling fishing

Location focus: Becharof National Wildlife Refuge, Bristol Bay region, Alaskan Peninsula, King Salmon area

Target species: Sockeye salmon, silver salmon, rainbow trout, Dolly Varden, Arctic Grayling, brown bears

Equipment discussed: Moorish mouse fly patterns

Key questions answered: • Why should non-Alaskans care about Bristol Bay conservation? • How does salmon ecosystem support Alaska's wildlife? • What infrastructure would Pebble Mine require beyond the mine itself?

Best for: All anglers and conservationists interested in Bristol Bay protection, Alaska fishing and hunting, wilderness conservation advocacy and understanding salmon ecosystem importance

**Marvin Cash (00:04):**
Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. Welcome to the first official episode of our limited series, People of Bristol Bay. For the last 15 years or so, the proposed Pebble Mine has been discussed in one form or another. As time marches on, particularly in the lower 48, we tend to lose sight of the actual people living and pursuing their livelihoods in Bristol Bay and Pebble's potential impact on their way of life. Once a month or so, we'll share an interview with you so these folks can share their love of the Alaskan outdoors and what the proposed Pebble Mine means to them. On this first official episode, I'm joined by Tia Shoemaker. Tia grew up in the Alaskan bush and is a second-generation hunting and fishing guide for her family's business, Grizzly Skins of Alaska. She has a really awesome story, and I think you're really going to enjoy our conversation. But before we move on to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please share it with a friend. It would also be great if you could subscribe in the podcatcher of your choice and leave us a review and rating. Now, on to our interview.

Well, Tia, welcome to The Articulate Fly.

**Tia Shoemaker (01:12):**
Thanks for having me.

**Marvin Cash (01:14):**
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to our conversation. And I will say that you're my first fishing and hunting guide, but I have to keep the tradition alive on The Articulate Fly and ask you to share your earliest fishing memory.

**Tia Shoemaker (01:27):**
Well, I don't know if I have one. You know, we were living a largely subsistence lifestyle from the time I was born, so I'm not sure if I can really distinguish the first time. I do remember fishing for Grayling when we lived up on the Salmon Fork River, which is near the Yukon, and eating grayling as a little bitty kid. And then once we moved down to the Alaskan Peninsula, of course salmon fishing was just something that we did as a family, going out and basically harvesting salmon just to eat. And that was kind of those first memories of getting fish to eat. Of course, that was what got me hooked, but then catch and release came later once I got into fly fishing.

**Marvin Cash (02:14):**
Got it. And when did you make the move to the dark side of fly fishing?

**Tia Shoemaker (02:19):**
I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure around the age of nine or ten, it wasn't really something that was a choice in our family. It was like, well, your parents are doing it, your brother's doing it, now you need to make the move over when you're around that age of ten. And my brother and I got really into tying flies. We started our own little business out there at the lodge where we would tie flies and sell them to the clients. So that was a great way to kind of get you interested in it and in what fish were eating and the aquatics and all that. And then about age 14 was when I started going out and helping a lot with the guiding. And there was a ton to learn at that stage because there's a lot of tricks or techniques I learned from clients that I hadn't heard anywhere else. Of course, there's lots of things I learned not to do as well.

**Marvin Cash (03:19):**
Very neat. And what about your earliest hunting memory?

**Tia Shoemaker (03:24):**
Well, you know, growing up in a hunting camp, of course, your earliest hunting memories are of other people hunting and wanting to be part of that experience and thinking that you should be allowed to go out. But you're told that you're only three, you're not really old enough to go help guide a hunt. So a lot of my earliest hunting memories are not my own, but my own personal hunting was at the age of five. I was given a little compound bow, a little Fred Bear. And my brother and I would run across the tundra, barefoot, of course, slinging arrows left and right at the ptarmigan, which would just dodge your arrows and duck. And it wasn't until the end of that first summer of my fifth year that I actually connected with the ptarmigan and got one. And then it became a full-on passion for my brother and I, and we would chase them all season long, basically. And we would play guiding client - who got to be the guide for the ptarmigan hunt, who had to be the client. And we got good enough, finally. I think I was like eight, probably, that we got good enough that my mom put a limit on them, which was two a day and it had to be off of the 40-acre homestead. And then we got even better, and then it was two a day within a mile away from the homestead. So it got to the point where we kind of put our bows down and picked up shotguns. But that was definitely the fun early days of hunting for me.

**Marvin Cash (04:55):**
Yeah, very neat. And were your mentors mostly family members, or were there people that kind of visited the lodge that helped you with your hunting and your fishing?

**Tia Shoemaker (05:06):**
You know, both. We were very isolated in the winter times, but during hunting season, we have an influx of people come in, both clients and other guides. Both my parents were great mentors for us. They really taught us self-reliance, never giving up on a problem. My dad has this way of looking at the world where if something presents a problem, he doesn't throw up his hands and say, oh, I can't do this. He just gets innovative and thinks of a way that it can work. And I think my brother and I both picked that up, which is a super valuable skill in the wilderness. And then, of course, my mom taught us a lot of examples just by leading by example. You know, she was a Florida girl, born and raised, and came up to Alaska at 23 and was trying to raise two little babies up here in the bush. Originally, they were living out of pup tents in bear country, and my dad would go off guiding sheep hunts and leave her and she had no form of communication. And so I think just that attitude of mental toughness and, you know, this is just what we do and so we get by and you do whatever it takes. So I would say those are like the most valuable lessons that my parents certainly taught us.

**Marvin Cash (06:30):**
Yeah, that's very neat. And so you're born and raised in Alaska, and correct me if I mispronounce this, but I think you grew up on a homestead. Is it the Becharof National Wildlife Refuge?

**Tia Shoemaker (06:41):**
Becharof.

**Marvin Cash (06:42):**
Ah, well, I was close. Yes, Russian name. Yeah, and so for those of us in the lower 48, can you kind of let us know where that's located?

**Tia Shoemaker (06:52):**
So Iliamna is the largest lake in the state, and Becharof is the second largest, and it's south of Iliamna. There's a little fishing village called King Salmon, and that is about 60 air miles north of us. So we're kind of off the eastern edge of Becharof Lake and just south of King Salmon.

**Marvin Cash (07:15):**
Got it. And what attracted your parents to want a homestead in that particular location?

**Tia Shoemaker (07:22):**
Well, we have homesteaded many places throughout the state. It was something that was a big attraction for people coming to Alaska. That one in particular, we did not homestead. The original homesteader was Jim Kan, and he was a former guide who staked it during the Homesteading Act of 1972. But my parents bought it from him in 1987. And because it's within the wildlife refuge, it has to be basically grandfathered into that area. So it's a very unique and special spot for them to be able to locate our family.

**Marvin Cash (07:56):**
Very neat. And you talked a little bit about the hunting and fishing growing up, but what was it like to grow up in such a remote area, and how did that affect your worldview as you got older?

**Tia Shoemaker (08:08):**
Well, it was all I ever knew, so it was normal. Later in life, I guess I learned how unique and special it was to be presented with these opportunities. And then my parents chose that lifestyle for us. And I realized how exceptionally rare it was to be raised under the circumstances I was raised in. But, you know, just the whole thing from growing up, homeschooling, running a trapline as a youngster, going into the field to help clients and guides, learning to fly a taildragger on skis at 14, how to handle bears and be around wildlife. I guess it all just made me realize that a lot of the challenges I face today are pretty minimal. And my capabilities are, you know, I'm certainly capable of a lot of the things, the little challenges I come across today because of those early challenges and early lessons. And just a unique opportunity to be there really helped me, I guess, be grateful for all that my parents provided in that lifestyle and then just the uniqueness of it.

**Marvin Cash (09:18):**
Yeah, very neat. And so when did you catch the guide bug?

**Tia Shoemaker (09:24):**
Well, we were deemed old enough, both my brother and I, when we reached the age of 10. So I remember getting to go out with one of the assistant guides and a hunter, and sitting on the hillside thinking, how long are we supposed to sit here quietly? And sitting there for 12, 13-hour days glassing was pretty challenging for a 10-year-old. And then there's the client aspect of, you know, we were very shy and were also taught impeccable manners. So you're always on your best behavior around clients. So I think it was a real job, and I'm not sure if I saw the joy in it for a while. But I do remember one moose hunt that I was on when I was 13, and we were successful. And I remember helping pack back all the meat and loving that part of it, and, of course, the stock and all that. But then right before the client flew out, he handed me a $100 bill and a quarter of his rotgut whiskey in his plastic bottle. And I was like, I'm going to do this for the rest of my life. I love this.

**Marvin Cash (10:33):**
Yeah, that's really neat. And so as you kind of progressed in the guiding profession, who are some of the folks that mentored you and what did they teach you?

**Tia Shoemaker (10:43):**
Well, in the guiding field, predominantly was my father. But a lot of the guides that worked for my folks, I hunted with a lot of them in the early years. And just, you know, every one of them had something different to teach. One of them was a great people person. Another one was mental toughness, able to teach that. And then one of my favorite guides to hunt with, his big thing was you'll be successful so long as you have patience and optimism. And that's the key. And so just kind of learning these, picking up all these little things from hunting with so many different people that are very professional in the industry and good at what they do. I felt really fortunate to have that for mentors.

**Marvin Cash (11:28):**
Yeah, very neat. And so what do you think is the secret to being a good guide?

**Tia Shoemaker (11:36):**
I guess I'd have to say, you know, paying attention to people, being a good people person. My father likes to always say that you can teach anyone to hunt, but you can't teach them to be a good people person. And it's so true. You see people that want to guide because they want to hunt. But it's really not, you know, that's not what it's about. It's about being interested in other people, taking their very different worldviews and their hunting styles in stride, getting along with them. You know, it's maintaining an optimistic approach when things get bad or when the weather's rough. Because a lot of times, the clients are reacting to your attitude and your perspective. And I know that when things get hard, you know, if it's 70-mile-an-hour winds and sideways rain and the temperatures are just above freezing, which is really common on the peninsula in hunting season. And if you just show them that the weather can't get you down, they tend to kind of want to copy that approach. And I think that keeping your client upbeat and optimistic and reminding them that it takes patience, I think those are all the things that, you know, it's a people person job. It's not really a hunting job.

**Marvin Cash (12:50):**
Yeah, got it. And can you share probably one of your kind of craziest guide stories or experiences?

**Tia Shoemaker (12:59):**
Well, fortunately, I don't have too many crazy ones. If it gets too crazy, it usually means you've done your job wrong. I try to mitigate the crazy ones. And then in terms of clientele, we're incredibly fortunate to have the ones that we do. Each one has taught me something completely different. And I think growing up and being surrounded by these folks that are highly successful in their field was a great learning lesson for me in how to be and how to succeed in life.

**Marvin Cash (13:30):**
Yeah, very neat. And I ask all of my guide guests this question too, is to share what they think the biggest misconception people have about the life of a guide.

**Tia Shoemaker (13:43):**
I think that the biggest misconception is that it's about hunting, kind of what I addressed earlier. It's not. It's about helping someone else endure the challenges of a hunt. And it's about psychology. Another thing my dad's always saying is, you know, you need to know how to hunt, but you need to have a master's in psychology. It's about knowing when to push a person and when to back off. You know, it's about helping folks that wouldn't normally be capable of getting an animal by themselves or be successful. You know, and of course, all the moments in between, which includes a lot.

**Marvin Cash (14:22):**
Yeah, very neat. And I know that you and your brother are the second generation of your family business, Grizzly Skins of Alaska. Can you tell me a little bit about Grizzly Skins?

**Tia Shoemaker (14:35):**
Well, it started off with my dad, who began guiding over 40 years ago in the state. He was guiding for other folks, and then eventually my parents decided to start their own business in 1984, which is the year I was born. So it was a lot going on then. And there's a lot of transformations, of course, that happened between then and now. We originally had a guide area on state land up on the Salmon Fork of the Black River, which is, like I said, near the Yukon. Very hungry country, very remote country. And then in 1987, we wound up moving down to the Alaskan Peninsula, which was game-rich and much easier access. You know, there was a village only 60 air miles away that we could fly into for supplies. And we've been there ever since, guiding. We offer bear hunts, moose hunts, fishing trips, both fly-out and raft trips.

**Marvin Cash (15:28):**
Very neat. And did you leave Alaska to go to college or guide anywhere else?

**Tia Shoemaker (15:33):**
You know, I did. I went to college. I started off at the University of Fairbanks, and then I transferred down to the University of Idaho in Moscow, Idaho. So, and that was basically just to bird hunt and fish. I took my shotgun and all my fly rods and went down there to go to school. And then I traveled a ton after that. I got to help guide some hunts in New Zealand. I went over there to spend six months hunting and fishing for myself. I learned Czech nymphing from Czechoslovakians. I worked in Antarctica. I used to run youth backpacking and kayaking trips in Baja, Mexico. I worked as a raft and backpacking guide in Glacier National Park. Let's see, I hitchhiked across three different countries in Africa, hunting Cape Buffalo in Zimbabwe. I chased snow monkeys around Japan, fished different parts of Mexico and Hawaii. But really, I mean, nothing honestly compares for me, like the hunting and fishing opportunities in Alaska and the hiking that we have here. I guess it just always held my heart, and I think it always will. Nothing really has even tempted me to move away from the state.

**Marvin Cash (16:40):**
Wow, that's really neat. And can you kind of, I guess, break down the various hunting and fishing seasons that you guys guide for out of Grizzly Skins?

**Tia Shoemaker (16:46):**
Yeah, so our business season runs from May to October. Bear season is every year in May, odd years in October. So fishing starts, you know, we've got fishing for sockeye, Dolly Varden, Arctic Grayling, rainbow, and that starts, yeah, like I said, in July. It goes through August. And then our prime silver salmon fishing starts in late August, which is always a hoot. And then we move right on into moose season, back to back. And then we finish off with an October bear season on the odd years.

**Marvin Cash (17:23):**
Very neat. And do you have a favorite season?

**Tia Shoemaker (17:28):**
I can't say that I do. You know, I absolutely love all of them. There's something that I look forward to with each season. I probably get the most nostalgic over the fishing season. You know, the salmon are running strong and it's the warmest time on the peninsula. It's sunny a lot of times. You know, the berries are out by August and we're watching bears every day and we're fishing almost every hour of daylight and flying out from the lodge daily to a new spot. So you're seeing lots of different country. It's just a really special time of year. It's special for all the game animals of the state. You know, summertime and everybody's in this frantic frenzy to collect food.

**Marvin Cash (18:10):**
Yeah, absolutely. And so what do you do in the off-season?

**Tia Shoemaker (18:15):**
Off-season? What's that? It's funny because people always ask me what I'm doing with my time, and other guides have the same complaint of, what do you do in your off-season? And I think if you're helping to run or if you're running a business yourself, you don't really get an off-season. It seems to be speeding up every year too. I'm like, where is the off-season? I thought I used to have time off. But, you know, between corresponding with clients, doing bookings, which involves a crazy amount of time and dedication. And that also includes usually attending the hunting shows in Reno, Vegas, Dallas, those type hunting shows, the SCI events. Involves tons of emails, phone calls, family arguments, you know, just a lot of work. But I also, when I'm not doing that, I'm doing freelance writing. I write for different hunting magazines and blogs. And I just recently, a little bit over a year ago, partnered with another gal to start our own print-only hunting publication. And it's a new style of hunting journal where the idea is to get the stories out that you tell your friends around the campfire, the kitchen table. You know, just the different stories of what worked, what didn't, stories about your failures, along with your successes when you're hunting. Because I read a lot of hunting magazines today, and they just have such polished hero stories and these highlighted successes. And they broadcast these trophy shots, these smiling, goofy trophy shots. And so I think we're just trying to get away from that and produce something that's fresh and new and very different. So that's been pretty time-consuming in the last year.

**Marvin Cash (19:54):**
Yeah, I can only imagine. What's the name of the publication?

**Tia Shoemaker (19:58):**
Traverse. Traverse Journal.

**Marvin Cash (19:59):**
And where can folks find it?

**Tia Shoemaker (20:02):**
Well, we've started a website, Traverse Journal. And we're also, we've got an Instagram page and a Facebook page. But that stuff is, like I said, it's kind of all up and coming. We're really focusing on being print-only. So that'll just be marketing aspects. But once we get the print out there, we'll be pushing it a lot more, trying to get people to look into it.

**Marvin Cash (20:29):**
Yeah, very neat. And I'll drop a link to the website and Instagram feeds in the show notes.

**Tia Shoemaker (20:34):**
Awesome.

**Marvin Cash (20:35):**
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we're recording this, I guess, in the middle of May. And so we have to kind of ask, you know, how is COVID-19 affecting your upcoming guide season?

**Tia Shoemaker (20:48):**
Well, I'm getting emails daily from concerned fishermen and hunters asking what I think the likelihood of them coming up this summer is going to be. And I keep answering the same way, which I don't know. You know, we just aren't sure if fishing season's going to go this year, which is highly concerning. We're already out of spring bear season. It was a spring bear year and that was shut down in Unit 9, which is where I guide and where the lodge is. So, you know, I should be out guiding right now instead of doing podcasts. The future is pretty unknown for the lodge right now.

**Marvin Cash (21:25):**
Sure. Yeah, and that's been, I guess, kind of the similar feedback I've gotten from bear viewing guides and other folks too. And I know there's a lot of concern about outsiders coming to the state for the commercial fishing season too.

**Tia Shoemaker (21:40):**
Right. And, you know, Alaska's economy is based on tourism, so it's got everybody paying attention.

**Marvin Cash (21:46):**
Yeah, and, you know, despite the pandemic, I guess one of the things that's happening that's been in the news recently is that the Army Corps of Engineers is committed to maintaining its timeline to evaluate Pebble Mine's first federal permit. And I think the decision is due sometime kind of late this summer. You know, to help folks understand, where is the proposed Pebble Mine in relation to your family's lodge?

**Tia Shoemaker (22:13):**
So it's north of us. It's about 150 air miles north of us. And I know that sounds like a far distance, but, and while it's not directly in my backyard, I mean, it will dramatically affect us because the mine will sit at the headwaters of the most massive sockeye run on the planet. So yeah, 150 miles doesn't seem like very much when you start looking at the grand scheme of things.

**Marvin Cash (22:38):**
Right. And I guess, you know, one of the things too is that the impact of the salmon fishery is really more than just related to commercial and recreational fishing. Can you help our listeners understand kind of what salmon do in the broader Bristol Bay ecosystem?

**Tia Shoemaker (22:56):**
Well, it's simple. Salmon are the lifeblood of the area. Without them, the entire region's ecosystem and then economy would collapse. Salmon are highly susceptible to environmental disturbances, as we've discovered on both coasts of the United States. We've discovered that in Canada. Europe's discovered that. Bristol Bay is, you know, it's the last great game field and home to the world's densest population of brown bears, not to mention tons of other critters. And it's due to, you know, it's largely due to them because of undeveloped lands, but also the high caloric, you know, the accessibility to high caloric foods, which is salmon for the bears. Herbivores rely on them. Just, you know, the caribou and the moose depend on the influx of nitrogen and fertilization of the soil and of the vegetation that the salmon runs provide. You know, the entire food web is based on these salmon. And that's not even to mention the human economy and people actually subsisting off the salmon still.

**Marvin Cash (24:03):**
Yeah, because I guess, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that when the salmon migrate upriver to spawn and then they die, that's literally what brings the bulk of the nutrients back to what's not necessarily a terribly rich ecosystem otherwise.

**Tia Shoemaker (24:20):**
Absolutely. Yep.

**Marvin Cash (24:23):**
You know, one of the things, and we were talking about this a little bit before we started recording, you know, I think you have to have not been paying attention the last 15 years if you're an angler or a hunter and you don't, you know, you're not aware of the proposed mine. But I think a lot of people are unaware of the infrastructure that's potentially, you know, well, it is related to the proposed mine. I think there's 80 to 100 miles of roads and previously roadless areas. There's a power plant. I think there's an icebreaker ferry across Lake Iliamna and a plan to run a gas pipeline under Cook Inlet. Can you kind of give us your thoughts on what that infrastructure will do to the Bristol Bay ecosystem and how it'll affect your family business?

**Tia Shoemaker (25:11):**
Yeah, well, I mean, a lot of people, like you said, and we've been talking about it for 15 years, a lot of folks know about how dangerous a massive open pit mine could be for the environment. How dangerous or how destructive these dams built on porous soil in a seismically active area, holding back billions of gallons of toxic sludge, potentially seeping in the waterways would be. And plus, we have to maintain these long after the minerals are extracted. People know about that stuff. But few people are talking about what building that infrastructure would look like. If it's got to be big enough to run this entire mine, what's that going to do to the game? There's a road that's proposed to go 400 yards from the McNeil River Bear Sanctuary. It speaks for itself. What's that going to do to the bear numbers? History shows that once roads and infrastructure are in place, they'll be used by all, and of course that fragments the habitat. And so just, I mean, just looking at what the infrastructure is going to do to the hunting alone, that's going to displace hunters throughout the state of Alaska, which is going to cause more competition in the hunting areas that already have a lot of competition in the state. So it's, you know, that's just a good argument for saying it's not just my backyard, it's going to be yours too if you live in northern Alaska. A lot of people aren't talking about the flooding that's going to occur as a byproduct of resource extraction, which will reduce the food for all the ungulates of the area. The Pebble Partners draft environmental impact statement only addresses the initial mine footprint. And so that means that the development and resource extraction that they're proposing is not even enough to make a profit on. So we can assume that it's going to expand. That seems to be the rule rather than the exception when it comes to mining, right? I mean, that's what we've seen in the past.

**Marvin Cash (27:08):**
Yeah, and it's interesting too, and to kind of help people that don't live in Alaska, can you kind of share with our listeners kind of a sense of, you know, who in Alaska is opposed to Pebble? And is it, you know, outdoor-oriented businesses like your family business and conservation organizations, or is it a broader coalition of Alaskans that aren't in favor of the mine?

**Tia Shoemaker (27:33):**
Well, I would say it's all people. It's across the board, as it should be. It's Republicans, it's Democrats, it's anglers and hunters, non-hunters, non-anglers. It's people who don't want to see the state become what the lower 48 already has with the strip malls and the suburbs everywhere. It's people who don't want roads traversing the wilderness. I know miners who don't support it. I know native groups that don't support it. City dwellers, people who don't, you know, they don't even have anything necessarily invested in that area. They just don't want a foreign mining company coming in and destroying our state and taking our resources.

**Marvin Cash (28:08):**
Yeah, got it. And, you know, how do you think, you know, you got, I know that mining and oil and gas exploration are a large part of the Alaskan economy. How do you think the policymakers in Alaska and outside of Alaska should kind of balance these various interests so that you get, you know, energy development when you need it, but you also protect natural resources and natural places?

**Tia Shoemaker (28:34):**
Well, I think that's an awesome question. I think it's one that we're not talking about enough. I get it. I think most people do. We understand that we need a lot of resources that come from mining. I grew up on the Alaskan Peninsula, but when I was 10, my parents decided my brother and I were getting a little bit bushy, meaning that we couldn't interact with people in society, at least kids our own age, very well. And so they decided to move us part-time up to a gold mining town of about 60 people right on the Arctic Circle. And it's a town called Central or Circle Hot Springs. And, you know, I grew up with miners. I grew up around mines. A field charity to go check out the mines and how they worked. My parents' first job in Alaska was working on a gold dredge. There is a place for mining in the state. We need the natural resources produced by the mines to run our current economy. And I don't take issue with most mines. But, and I think that you'll find this across the board, that people are saying placing a mine of this scale in this part of the area, in this area of the world, it's just, it's foolish and outlandish. I don't want to be labeled your average, not in my backyard greenie, but the risk of a mine in Bristol Bay is just too high. I totally get that we need the raw materials and the resources produced from mining, but this is like deciding that because we need a place to put our trash in the world, that we should dump it into the Grand Canyon or dump it on the Arlington National Cemetery or Mount Rushmore. Some places just need to be protected. And it should be said that, you know, the Army Corps of Engineers is pushing this through in such a way that's incredibly poorly executed. They're not using good judgment and it's sloppy. If we decide in the long run that Alaska's most renewable resource, which is our salmon, should be traded for gold and copper because we decide we need it, then let's spend the adequate amount of time and energy needed to mine the resources responsibly, you know, to be able to mitigate the damage to the resource. Let's have it be Alaskan miners developing a plan. How about not a foreign-owned mining company that doesn't care how they leave our state?

**Marvin Cash (30:41):**
Yeah, interesting. Do you have a feel for how the COVID pandemic is impacting kind of support or opposition for the mine in the sense of, you know, do people think that interest in developing the mine will decrease because of an economic depression? Or do you think that people are starting to say, well, we've had an economic downturn result of COVID-19, so we need to, you know, jobs are more important than they ever were, so we really need to move forward with Pebble Mine. Can you kind of share kind of what you're hearing in Alaska and what you feel is going on on that front?

**Tia Shoemaker (31:15):**
I think from where I sit, the COVID pandemic is killing our opposition groups. It's, you know, it's human nature for us to be concerned about the here and now and our immediate future. Folks are more concerned, as they have every right to be, about the global pandemic and how they're going to put food on their table than they are about a proposed mine. So the Army Corps of Engineers is pushing their agenda right now while people are not focused on what's going on. And I imagine, you know, frankly right now with the economy being the way it is, the few jobs that Pebble would offer to Alaskans probably looks pretty enticing to some at the moment, which in my opinion is taking complete advantage of the American people.

**Marvin Cash (32:01):**
Yeah, and, you know, a question that I've asked a lot of folks that I've interviewed or talked with about Bristol Bay and the proposed mine, you know, if you're not an Alaskan and you're not an angler or a hunter, you know, why should you care?

**Tia Shoemaker (32:14):**
Well, I think that's a multifaceted question. I mean, there's so many ways you could go with that. Of course, the first one at least that comes to my mind is that we still need wild places. We've encroached on so much habitat with our developing houses and strip malls and all these things that we're pushing out the wild animals. There's still time to learn from our past mistakes. You know, there aren't grizzlies in California any longer. The bison herds don't roam in the same numbers that they used to in northwest continental United States. The mountain caribou of Idaho, the last one I think was transported to Canada. They don't even have a caribou herd anymore. You know, our salmon runs all along the West Coast of the United States are dwindling. But in Alaska, and particularly on the peninsula, we have a super dense, rich, healthy animal population. They're thriving. You know, we boast the largest salmon runs in the world, the largest bears, the densest numbers of bears. There's an abundance of other critters. There's lynx, fox, wolverine, wolves, ermine, caribou, moose. You know, a lot of the peninsula is still wilderness. Even if you aren't a hunter or angler, maybe don't intend to even visit that part of the state, it's something just for us to know as humans that we haven't destroyed the last remaining wilderness that we have. It's a chance to prove to ourselves that greed doesn't outweigh our desire for wild places. I don't know. I mean, growing up, there was a sticker my dad had up in our house, and it's the, I'm sure you've heard, it's the Cree Indian Prophecy, which reads, only when the last tree has been cut down and the last fish has been caught and the last stream poisoned will we realize we cannot eat money. Well, we can't eat gold and we can't eat copper. And I think it's, you know, it's far-thinking politicians back in the day that recognized that we need to have wild lands to maintain our sanity. You know, where would we be as a nation without our Roosevelt, without our Muir? And I guess, you know, if that's not convincing to folks, how about caring about the United States as a whole? If a foreign-owned mining company was to go into Montana, not my backyard, and propose a massive open pit mine be put into Glacier National Park to pull out resources, and the byproduct would be destroying the park, but they could hand out a few jobs to the residents of the area, I think people would be up in arms. They'd say, no way. Or, you know, like, micro-scale that down to, let's say it really is you in your backyard, and you discover gold. You're like, oh my gosh, there's some gold in my backyard. And a foreign company comes in and says, okay, I want that gold. So here's a shovel. I'll pay you to get it out. And here's the minimum wage to get out the gold for me. And no one's going to be silly enough to go for that. And you look at what the bigger scale is there and that's Pebble for you.

**Marvin Cash (35:04):**
And I really appreciate you sharing those thoughts because I think it's one of the challenges that, you know, for those of us that live in the lower 48, that, you know, it's hard to appreciate, you know, to get close to it. I think I've told people before, you know, this isn't like the proposed mine site is in Kansas and most Americans could drive and see it if they wanted to. And I think the scale too is hard for us to understand without actually being there. So, I mean, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts as an Alaskan who loves the outdoors. Kind of shifting gears to kind of look forward. We know COVID-19 is disrupting your potential guide season, but what are you looking forward to the most guiding this year?

**Tia Shoemaker (35:52):**
Well, I'll still head out there to the lodge, regardless of whether we have a fishing season or not. You know, it'll be very different, but most years, I don't know, it's probably a toss-up of what I look forward to, either tasting that first chrome sockeye, maybe watching the first rainbow of the season leap out of the water when you're fishing a Moorish mouse. And then, you know, when we have clients, of course, it's visiting with these repeat customers that we have that they've been coming for 20 some years and you only see them once a year and they become actual friends. So there's a lot to look forward to, I guess is my answer to that one.

**Marvin Cash (36:33):**
Very neat. And, you know, why don't you let folks know where they can find you in the lodge on the internet and can follow your adventures?

**Tia Shoemaker (36:43):**
So our website for the business is grizzlyskinsofalaska.com. And I also have an Instagram page. I think it's Tia Shoemaker. And then, like I say, the traversejournal.com.

**Marvin Cash (36:59):**
Absolutely. And I'll drop links to all those in the show notes. Okay great, awesome. Well, Tia, really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me this evening.

**Tia Shoemaker (37:10):**
Yeah, I really appreciate you asking all the good questions and getting to chat with you.

**Marvin Cash (37:14):**
Oh, it's been a lot of fun. Thanks so much. Well folks, I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Please share it with a friend and again, if you like the podcast, it would be great if you could subscribe in the podcatcher of your choice and leave us a review and rating. Thanks so much for your support. Tight lines, everybody.