S8, Ep 44: The Legacy of Classic Flies: Allen Rupp's Insights on Timeless Patterns

In this episode of The Articulate Fly fly fishing podcast, host Marvin Cash sits down with fly tying guru Allen Rupp, Dave Whitlock's hand-selected legacy tier and the driving force behind Fly on the Water, for a deep dive into the classic fly patterns that built the sport. Allen traces his fly tying roots back to childhood phone calls with Bob Clouser and close proximity to Lefty Kreh growing up around Frederick Maryland, then explains why decades-old patterns like the Clouser Minnow, Lefty's Deceiver and Chico's Bonefish Special still outfish many modern flies for smallmouth bass, striped bass and bonefish alike. The conversation moves to the vise, covering the durability secrets, adhesive techniques and material sourcing challenges behind commercial fly tying, along with foundational lessons in simplicity and presentation that Allen learned from mentors including Harry Murray, Brad Yoder and Dennis Potter. Allen also shares a swing nymphing technique he later learned traces back to Charlie Brooks, plus practical tips on weedless Clouser construction and flexible-adhesive layering for fly durability. It's a conversation packed with fly tying history and hands-on craft for anyone who ties or fishes classic patterns.

EPISODE SUMMARY

Guest: Allen Rupp - Fly Tying Guru and Dave Whitlock's Legacy Tier at Fly on the Water (Manhattan, New York)

In this episode: Fly tying guru Allen Rupp shares decades of firsthand insight into classic fly patterns and the legendary tiers who shaped his career for fly tiers and anglers who want to understand why old patterns still work. Topics include the enduring effectiveness of classic streamer patterns, the mentorship culture of pre-internet fly fishing and the craft of durable commercial fly tying.

Key fishing techniques covered:

• Swing nymphing (a technique Allen independently developed before learning it traces back to Charlie Brooks)
• Filling thread wraps on Clouser Minnows with resin to create a weedless profile
• Fishing a single fly pattern for a full year to master presentation over pattern selection
• Using flexible adhesive instead of rigid adhesive on soft materials like deer hair to prevent cracking and improve fly durability
• Pre-treating eye cavities with Flexament before Goop and a final eye-set for long-term durability

Location focus: Upper Potomac River and the Frederick/Cockeysville Maryland fly fishing club scene; Manhattan's garment district as a fly tying material source; Seychelles and Golden Dorado destination fisheries

Target species: Smallmouth bass, trout, striped bass, bonefish, golden dorado

Equipment discussed: Clouser Minnow, Half and Half, Lefty's Deceiver, Lefty's popping bug, CK Baitfish (Chuck Kraft), Semper Fli, Flash Dancer (Larry Dahlberg), Chico's Bonefish Special, Lou Tabory's Snake Fly, NearNuff Crayfish and Sheep Shad, Renomed scissors, Mark Petitjean bobbins, Zap-A-Gap, Flexament, Tuffleye resin

Key questions answered:

• Why do decades-old fly patterns like the Clouser Minnow and Lefty's Deceiver still outfish newer designs?
• How do you make a fly more durable using layered adhesives?
• What does it take to become a commercial fly tier and source quality natural materials?

Best for: Intermediate to advanced fly tiers and anglers interested in classic streamer patterns, fly tying durability techniques and the history of modern fly fishing

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Marvin Cash00:00:04

Hey, folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. On this episode, I'm joined by fly tying guru Allen Rupp. Allen is the driving force behind Fly on the Water and is Dave Whitlock's legacy tier.We take a deep dive into our sport's classic patterns, from Whitlock to Karen to Clouser to Popovics. And Allen shares his deep affection for these patterns and what they can still teach us on the water and at the vise.I think you're really gonna enjoy this one, but before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and subscribe and leave us a rating review in the podcast app of your choice.In the age of AI, it's more important than ever, and it really helps us out. And finally, a shout out to our sponsor. TroutRoutes.We all know streams and rivers are getting crowded, and chances are you're not the only one at your local access point. Get away from the crowds and busy gravel lots by using TroutRoutes Pro.With over 350,000 access points mapped across 50,000 trout streams and much more, TroutRoutes has all the data you need to help you find angling opportunities that others will overlook. Up your game and download the app today. Use code ArtFly20.ArtFly20 all one word for 20% off of your TroutRoutes Pro membership at maps.troutroutes.com now, on to our interview. Well, Allen, welcome to The Articulate Fly.

Allen Rupp00:01:26

Thanks for having me, Marvin.

Marvin Cash00:01:28

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. And, you know, we have a tradition on The Articulate Fly. We like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

Allen Rupp00:01:35

I'm not sure what my first fishing memory is, but, you know, early in my life, my dad taught me, you know, took me fishing and stuff.But one of the first ones that I can remember is we used to go and fish for crappie with little ball head jigs and just had a absolute blast doing it, you know?

Marvin Cash00:01:54

Yeah, it's funny you say that. I can remember seeing those. They used to have them by the checkout in the. In the hardware store, Right.And they'd be on a piece of cardboard and you just pull them off and it was literally like a chartreuse painted head with just a hook.

Allen Rupp00:02:07

Yeah, and that's what I used to. We used to go to Hechinger's and get them, and they were just little fluorescent yellow heads with some fluorescent yellow feathers tied to them.Super effective, though.

Marvin Cash00:02:16

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, once you find one, you've got a whole mess of crappie.

Allen Rupp00:02:21

Yeah, we, we, you know, we didn't shy away from keeping them, so.

Marvin Cash00:02:27

Yeah, absolutely. Well, listen, when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing?

Allen Rupp00:02:31

So I actually had to look this up. The show that got me was Fly Fishing the World with John Barrett. It started in 1989, but the reason why is he took very famous people at the time.Chris Evert, who was the best tennis player in the world. Michael Keaton, who was Batman, Henry Winkler, who was the Fonz, Huey Lewis, Les Claypool. These are the people he had out and took them fly fishing.And it just looked amazing. Granted, he went to Patagonia and the Bahamas and that kind of stuff, but it was, it still looked really amazing. So that's, that's what got me.

Marvin Cash00:03:12

Yeah, so when did you actually. You were watching on tv. When did you actually get in the water with a pair of waders?

Allen Rupp00:03:17

Oh, waders. A lot later we fished out of a boat mostly. We had a little John boat as a kid and.But my parents got me for either, I think it was Christmas that, that winter or for my birthday, they got me a Cortland 444 starter kit. It had a 9 foot 5 weight, you know, fly line, rod, reel. Basically everything you needed.

Marvin Cash00:03:40

Yeah, very neat. And you know, obviously you've got a few miles on the tires since then.Who are some of the folks that have kind of mentored you in the sport and what have they taught you?

Allen Rupp00:03:50

Well, you know, back then, the first person to give me a fly fishing and fly casting lesson was a guy named Mark Kobach. He was a guide on the upper Potomac for 40, more than 40 years. I think he made it 44 years before he retired.And then the other two, like these are big names, George Harvey and Lefty Kreh. But I didn't know who they were. And let me explain what that means.I lived in, you know, around D.C. whether it was northern Virginia, Southern Maryland. But I would go to trade shows in Virginia, Maryland and pa, and these two guys were always at them and I didn't know who they were.They were just always at them and they always were doing things.So I would always sit, sit in and listen and take notes, but I didn't know how, you know, how famous they were or how good they were, but those were two of them. And then there was a. Another person at that same time that I read a lot of his writing was Harry Murray.He wrote in the Mid Atlantic Fly Fisher's Guide, which was a free magazine that Fly shops would carry. And he would. He always wrote the report on the Shenandoah. And then he always.Almost every edition he would have an article in there about something, you know, whether it was brook trout fishing or smallmouth or a fly or a fishing technique, something. So that was kind of the, the first four or five that got me into fishing and really, you know, started me on the journey.

Marvin Cash00:05:23

Yeah. Very neat. I mean, and so when did you kind of get the bug to start tying flies?

Allen Rupp00:05:28

Basically right away that, that after they saw me fly fishing and not putting it down. After that first year, I remember for Christmas they got me the Cabela starter kit for fly tying. It came with the Thompson vise.And I still have the little book slash pamphlet that Eric Leisure wrote for them. But that's, that's what got me.And weirdly, I still have some of the fur pieces from it that are quite, you know, they were bigger pieces, but they were a really nice color for bluing dolls. And I've used it for years for my personal buys. And I still have probably a third of that thing left, plus some other random furs and stuff from it.

Marvin Cash00:06:07

Yeah, maybe some tinsel or some royal. Royal Wulff, you know, floss. Right.

Allen Rupp00:06:13

Yeah, I'm. I'm sure I've used up most of that stuff, but yeah, it was mostly garbage stuff.That's the one thing I'll say is a problem with all the beginning kits is most of the time you're getting scrap materials that are just absolute junk. So I really don't recommend them for anyone.

Marvin Cash00:06:29

Yeah. And so, you know, it's kind of interesting, right, because you learned to fly fish and to tie flies kind of, you know, before the Internet, Right.Back in the old days. And so, you know, you kind of touched on this already, but, you know, you benefited from. From being in really close physical proximity.Really, not just from shops, but just people that were within a reasonable drive of kind of where you were.And I was wondering if you could maybe talk a little bit about this because I think the young kids don't understand what it was like to get permission to make long distance phone calls and stuff like that. But talk a little bit about having easy access to Lefty and Clauser and people like that as you kind of grew in the sport.

Allen Rupp00:07:12

Yeah. So it's funny you mentioned the long distance phone calls. I forgot we had talked about that.So I grew up when long distance calls were a thing and they were expensive, but like once a month or so my mom would say, hey, you can have $10 to make a long distance call. And I called Bob Clouser every single time I was allowed to. And I would talk to him for the better part of 45 minutes to an hour.And I'm sure I asked the same question every single time. Um. Cause I was. I was infatuated with top water fishing for them. And then crayfish and Clouser minnows. Those were my three things that I wanted.Cause I knew I was already doing woolly buggers and they worked. Um, in fact, I was already selling flies to Mark Kovac. I think I started doing that when I was like 14.Um, I think that first year he bought about 60 dozen from me. And most of them were buggers. Well, but yeah, I would call Bob and ask him questions about, you know, leader design.And, you know, he was just, you know, he was just telling me, lefty's leader. But he was reinforcing it. And it really helped. Cause I was trying to use those.I don't know if you remember those braided leader butts that Orvis used to use and sell. I was trying those. And when you're doing, like trout flies, they work kind of well for me. You throw a weighted fly on, they don't have it.So it was a good thing that he got me to start tying my own leaders back then.

Marvin Cash00:08:38

Yeah, but you also, at least for part of your childhood, lived, I think, pretty much in the same town as Lefty.

Allen Rupp00:08:43

Right, like 20 minutes away, something like that. Yeah. I mean, he grew up in Frederick. I was in. I went to school in Frederick county in Maryland.Then he moved to Cockeysville, which is over north of Baltimore. But that was only like 35 minutes away. I was halfway between, like, Baltimore and Frederick. But yeah, he, but he was.He was at every show I ever went to. You know, any club meeting. My father's boss started two different chapters of Trial Unlimited.One out on the Savage, which is way western Maryland, and one right near Potomac, Maryland. And, you know, Lefty would come down and do talks. And whenever that happened, you know, this is back when kids were allowed to cut school, right.But my dad would take me out of school. I'd go into work with him and we'd go home with, you know, or go with Bill over to where Lefty was doing a talk that evening.And I'd sit there and get to listen to Lefty. It was. That's what I'm saying. Like, I didn't know who he was, but he was just at. Everywhere I saw him 10 times a year.And I'd ask him questions, and, you know, he would give very thoughtful answers if I had had a good question. But he was always cracking jokes, too. That was the. The. The fun thing about him was, is he. He had a thousand jokes.Like, you rarely heard the same one very often. So.

Marvin Cash00:10:09

Yeah, it's interesting, too, because that's kind of like the golden age of the club, right?

Allen Rupp00:10:14

Yes.

Marvin Cash00:10:15

And it also reminds me of, like, being a kid and we had family friends that were ornithologists, and I can, Gosh, being in elementary school in the 70s and sitting down, and the box would come back from the copy company, and you'd sit in the floor and put together the newsletters and handwrite the addresses on them, and then the box would go to the post office. I mean, it was a very, very different pace that I think created some very different outcomes than what we have today.

Allen Rupp00:10:45

Oh, I would agree. I would very much agree. I would. I. I handled the newsletter for one of my TU chapters in the late 90s up in Narragansett, Rhode Island.It was the same thing. Like, we'd get it back from the printer. It was an entire night writing the address labels.And then I remember when we were finally able to print them. Oh, was it that fun? But you had to type em in once, Right. And that took, you know, three weeks of typing.But then once it was in, every time you just hit print and, you know, and you just had to stick, you know, it was only an hour to stick the labels on.

Marvin Cash00:11:23

Yeah. Technology is our friend, right?

Allen Rupp00:11:26

It really is. Yeah, it really is.

Marvin Cash00:11:28

And, you know, so I think, you know, most people know you as being, you know, Dave Whitlock's legacy tire.But I think a lot of people didn't really, you know, know that you were literally calling Clouser on a monthly basis, and you were regularly spending time with Lefty. But, you know, also too. And I think I noticed. I think I mentioned this to you.Like, I noticed this when you were going down to Gulf Shores to tie that.You know, not only are you tying Dave's patterns, but you have a tremendous affinity for all of these classic patterns from, like, Lefty and Bobby and Bob. And, you know, I was kind of curious, you know, where did that affection come from?And how did you resist the temptation as a tire to kind of drift to the modern patterns, materials and techniques?

Allen Rupp00:12:10

That's a complex question. Um, the short answer is because they really work. Well, that's the. The real truth.Um, you know, whether it's Larry Dahlberg's flash dancer I still fish that fly often. You know, Lefty taught Lefty and Bob taught me the. The red and white hackle fly. I still, I use the semper fly a lot.Half and half's Clouser bend back. Like, there's so many flies that these guys used to, you know, say where they're deadly. Dozen or, you know, know the 10.You have to have, you know, pick the name of the article you want, but these were always in the list. And then you, you know, you fish them and you're like, yeah, these work. Yes.There are new flies that have come out that are supposed to be just as good and, you know, or maybe they're supposed to be better, but they're not. They're. They're just different. You know, I. I've used a Clouser half and half and a Clouser everywhere for every fish I've ever tried to catch.And they work. Um, you know, whether it's the Amazon, whether it's, you know, in Portugal, you. You pick it. I've caught fish on it. You know, it's. It's.They're just impressive. Same with the red and white hackle fly. That's one of my favorite flies. You know, I'm just trying to think of other ones that are like that.The Flash Dancer is another good one. You know, there's a lot of Chuck Kraft flies that are that way. You know, his CK bait fish. That thing is incredible, you know, and what it.What it lacks in motion and action compared to something else, it makes up for in durability. I mean, I know I've got a couple of those that have like 300 smallmouth on them. Like, can you imagine a single fly that gets 300 fish?There aren't very many that can do it, but that one does it regularly. Yes. So, yeah. And then Chico's Bonefish special, I think it's 40 years old, and it's one of my favorite bonefish flies.So, yeah, there's a lot of really old ones that are, you know, like you said, you know, we want to use EP fibers and an EP brush because we think it's faster. But you can tie a Chico's Bonefish special in like four minutes. You know, there's only four parts, four materials in it. I think Flash, the.The motto or the tubing to protect it. Hackle, marabou and chicken feathers. Anything else? It's pretty quick.

Marvin Cash00:14:36

Yeah, it's interesting.I mean, you know, and it's kind of funny because they are still effective, you know, so, you know, why do you think that, like, newer, younger, you know, anglers aren't finding these patterns?

Allen Rupp00:14:48

Oh, that's, that's really simple. Out of sight, out of mind. They're, they're not being, you don't see them in magazine articles.You don't see them on, you know, talked about in podcasts. You don't see them in, you know, many YouTube videos.So that's why, you know, like Fly Fishermen and Fly Tyer and Dark Skies and all these magazines, they have to produce the new fly, whatever the new thing is, right? That's just what they have to do. They can't sit there and, you know, they, you can't build a magazine around flies that are 60 years older.You know, that Bren white hackle flies from the late 1800s. How do you sit there and build a, you know, a magazine around that, a fly that's that old? You're like, it's got it.We have to have done better than that, right? No, we really haven't. It's still a really effective fly. You know, you don't see the clouds are mentioned often in a magazine anymore. Why is that?It's still a great fly.So I, I, it's, it's frustrating because there's a lot of these flies that I think are, you know, you really can slim down your, your fly choice, which, which forces you to go. It's presentation that matters mo much more so than the actual pattern. Um, that's something I learned from Brad Yoder.He was another one of my mentors in the late 90s. He was a guide up in Vermont. He had trout on the fly. Yeah, it was Vermont's trout on the fly.And at a certain point he was like, he got me to really like the gold rib hare's ear as my nymph. And that's still probably one of my favorite nymphs. But he goes, alan, I want you to become really good at this.You just have to fish it every day for a year. And I'm like, what do you mean? It's like, look, there's fish rising. Put the dry flying one. But he goes everywhere.Every other time, just fish that fly. Cause it's going to teach you how to fish it in the deep water, in the shallow water, in this, in every situ single different situation.And then you're going to realize it doesn't matter if you put the hairs you're on or a prince or a pheasant tail or a fox squirrel, once you know that it's not the fly, it's the presentation. Your Fly choice really doesn't matter. And you'll. You'll get to that point. But he goes, it'll take you a year.So the next year I went and I fished a hare's ear. Like, you know, that was one of the years I did a hundred days on the water, and like, 70 of those days, I had a hazard tight on.I don't think I caught any fewer fish. I don't think I caught any more fish. It was just. I learned how to fish it in every water condition I saw. So it was.It was a really enlightening experience.And I. I think a lot of people would really learn a lot from that process of just pick a pattern or two, focus on them for a year, and you'll see you'll still catch just as many fish, and you'll learn that it's not as much the fly as it is your presentation and how you're fishing it.

Marvin Cash00:17:43

Yeah, I would add to that, too, that if you really want to kind of put that game on steroids, fish the same piece of water for a year.

Allen Rupp00:17:50

Ooh, that would. Deep, painful, I think, but, I mean, if it was a big enough river or something, maybe. But I fish a lot. I used to fish a lot of really small creeks.That would be tough for me, but, yeah, I could see that. Oh, that's a really good idea. I'm gonna have to try that one time. I don't know if this. That's got me thinking.

Marvin Cash00:18:12

Yeah. I mean, for me, it was during COVID and I had a couple secret places that I knew to go to that didn't get a lot of traffic.And it was, you know, doing that allowed me to connect some dots on seasonality that I wouldn't have seen if I was fishing all over the place. Right. Because I wouldn't be able to, you know, correct for the watershed versus the season.

Allen Rupp00:18:30

Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's a really interesting. I'm going to be giving that a shot here shortly.

Marvin Cash00:18:40

Yeah. Well, there you go. I've just told you how to fish for the next year.

Allen Rupp00:18:44

I think that's going to be 20, 27 fish the same water.

Marvin Cash00:18:47

Yeah. And so, you know, it's interesting. Right. So we know all of these patterns are effective at catching fish.And, you know, fish are educated, but they're not that educated. But, you know, like, why don't we bring it to the vice and talk about, you know, what these.These classic patterns can do for us to make us better tiers and kind of what the. What foundational tying elements are embedded in these patterns.

Allen Rupp00:19:09

Well, that's interesting. Yeah. So the first one that comes to mind is, you know, these guys really did figure out a few key elements.You know, Dave Whitlock, he added gills to every single fly that he, you know, every streamer fly that he ever tied or a popping bug, they had gills in there. He wanted that little red hotspot. You know, Lefty liked that a lot as well on his deceivers.Um, but the other thing, you know, the, the other thing that I, I liked about their flies was is you could tell they had spent time refining the fly. So.And I know Blane's talked about this on your podcast that I've heard that, you know, your friend, to get from the idea to where he is, like, happy with it, might take him as many as two, three, four years.And I know some of these flies would, you know, whether it was cloud, the Clouser minnow, or, you know, some of Dave's flies, these guys would literally continually try to mess with the fly and say, can I make it better? Can I make it better? Does is this better? And they, they kept whittling it down to what is the, the essence of this pattern?How simple can I make it, yet still how to be effective. And the deceiver is the ultimate in that, if you don't count flash. It's two materials, you know, and the flash can be.When you develop the flash, there was no flash, right. It was just chicken feathers and some bucktail. The flash was an addition once we started having Mylar. And it does make it better. So please add flash.But like, it doesn't get any more simple than that. So I, I'm, I'm a big fan of making sure people know to, you know, whether it's that simplified a half and half.You know, one of the things I liked about it is, and you know, Bob doesn't do it much anymore.I think it's because he's, he's realized that what causes the tail to foul when you, when you're casting is either rushing your back cast or waiting too long. Right? It's when you crack the whip at the back. That's what caused that tail to whip around and foul on the hook most of the time.But at the beginning, he used to put a little anti foul guard around his by just putting a little bit of bucktail around there.If you have his book, it's in there, he shows you how to do it, and it just helps stiffen up that first inch of the feather going out past the bend of the hook, and it really does prevent it from fouling very well. So, you know, I'm. I'm just impressed with all of the, you know, the thought that they put into these things.You know, Lou Tabory's snake fly is another really good example of that.If you fish at night for stripers from anywhere from, you know, Virginia and Maryland, all the way up through Maine, if you're not fishing a black or black and purple Tabory at night, well, you're kind of missing out the. You can tie it to be as small as, you know, three or four inches or as long as eight or nine. You can make it super skinny, big and fat. It.He talks about it, you know, in his books about the fly is what you need it to be. Have it imitate whatever bait you. Is around. But the point of the fly was that at no point is it not in motion.There's ostrich, there's marabou, there's flash. Then you have that deer hair head that's, you know, giving a sonic footprint to it as well. So it's, it's just incredibly effective.Um, so there's a. I think there's a lot of older flies that people like, we've been talking about, that people need to, to learn about. Um, so hopefully this, this podcast, you know, gives them the idea to go do some research.

Marvin Cash00:23:05

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, right? I mean, it's. I think one of the, The.One of my favorite stories is basically how the Clouser minnow didn't start out with dumbbell eyes like the gremlin weights.

Allen Rupp00:23:16

Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, he was just pinching the split shot on there.

Marvin Cash00:23:20

Yeah.And so, I mean, it's interesting, but I also think too, like, you know, if you just kind of look at, like, you know, how simply dressed these flies are. Right.

Allen Rupp00:23:30

Yes.

Marvin Cash00:23:31

You know, so you start talking about kind of the basics of, you know, you know, profile, you know, all of those types of kind of basic kind of constructions of fly tying and fishing that really, you know, kind of like fishing one fly for a year, fishing one piece of water for a year. You know, if you really kind of get rid of the fluff. Right. It really helps you kind of drill into what's really, really important. Yes.

Allen Rupp00:24:00

Like, well said. I can't agree with you anymore. It's simplicity is really what makes really great patterns great because it's.It's all well and good to have a fly that takes 45 minutes to tie. You know, I, I love fishing. Dave's extra ultralight air jet minnows, but they're not a, A flat.A fast popping bug to, to tie up, you know, but it's, you know, they're effective, but, you know, it's hard to beat Lefty's popping bug if you just want something that's quick and kind of down and dirty, you know, it's. Three quarters is good for. You can put one of those together and probably, you know, if you don't count paint less than five minutes.So it's a, A lot of these older bugs are really like that.

Marvin Cash00:24:50

Yeah, I, I think too, there's a generational component of resourcefulness. Right. So you're talking about kind of people of that generation being, you know, pretty close to depression era kids or not too far after that. Right.And. And there's a level of resourcefulness that, you know, we just don't have anymore. Where.And you know, my favorite kind of story I have about that is, I think the first time I met Popovics, you know, he literally had a, a big tube of GE silicone and he was making lips with ramswool. Right.And that level of resourcefulness where you couldn't go to, you know, for lack of a better word, fly tying, Walmart and kind of buy whatever you wanted. I was kind of curious, you know, you know, how getting away from that, you know, has affected, you know, modern fly tying.

Allen Rupp00:25:41

What I will say is I still think there's a.It's a small population now that still goes to Michaels and Joann's Fabrics to do things, you know, to get some of the materials, whether it's glass beads or plastic beads, you know, or just if you want to save money on just regular brass beads, get them from there. You know, they might not be countersunk, so getting them around the bend of the hook is a little bit more difficult.But as long as you're crimping your barbs, it go. They go around quite easily still. But, you know, there's. I still go there. You know, I get most of my foam from there for my sheep foam.And you know, a lot of my bonefish bodies are, you know, the, the braid kind of. I don't know what to call it.It's no the brand, it's fry work, but it's, it's the braid that's used in needlecraft for when you have the hoop of, you know, like a piece of fabric and you needle through it. Needlepoint, I think it's what it's called.

Marvin Cash00:26:42

Yeah. Or maybe, maybe embroidery thread.

Allen Rupp00:26:45

Yeah.But it's, it's you know, I'm buying stuff that might be an eighth of an inch wide or whatever, but it comes in so many colors and it's got metalized fat. There's also polyester fiber to it. So it's got really good strength.And it, it takes resin well, or it takes fleximate well because of that, it's kind of little wicking that holds those, you know, those adhesives well. But there's a ton of stuff like that you can get at those stores Eons. My friend Joe Jackson, you know, the, the.He showed me the best leg puller I've ever seen. He uses an. I forget the size, but it's an embroidery needle that's about 5 inches long.It's so much easier than trying to deal with all the smaller needles that we've done over the years.You know, it's big enough that, you know, it still slides right through the hair, but it's big enough you can grab it with pliers or your fingers and pull it through. So there's a lot of things that we can get from other stores.You know, I know Dave Whitlock used his, the eyes on his Matuka sculpin were doll eyes that he picked up at the, you know, Joanne's or Michael's. That's still what he used. He didn't like any of the. He had access to any eye he wanted, right, for that fly for the last 20 years.He didn't change it. He liked that eye. He thought it looked the most accurate.

Marvin Cash00:28:04

Yeah.It's interesting too, because I mean, I would guess, I mean, tools are a little bit different, but I would imagine probably 95% of all fly tying material is repurposed from somewhere else.

Allen Rupp00:28:15

Oh, I, if it's not higher than that, I'd be surprised. About the only thing that isn't is our dry fly hackle, you know, and our, that stuff is bred for us, right?Whiting Farms and Ewing and Metz, they, they're growing the hackle for us. But everything else, you know, it's. We are the second third user of that product.You know, I, I live here in Manhattan and I can, I go down to the, the garment district all the time and get, and get saddle feathers down there. Granted, I have to buy it by the pound, so it's a year's supply for me, but I can get them for half the price of any wholesaler. Right.Or ostrich hurl.I can go down there and I can, I can sort through 25 to 30 inch long ostrich heels that have 8, 8 inch long fibers on each side to get the ones I want. Kind of nice.

Marvin Cash00:29:08

Yeah, There are definitely advantages, which is a great segue to my next question. Right. Because, you know, classic patterns mean natural materials. And I was kind of curious, you know, how challenging.I mean, if you don't live in New York City, Right? Yeah. You know, how challenging is it to get the quality of the natural materials? You need to continue to tie these patterns.And I would say kind of a related question is it makes me think about like Griff's head cement. Like there are components that go away too, right?

Allen Rupp00:29:33

Yes. Yeah. Listen, that. It's funny you say that. When Dave taught me the Near Nuff Crayfish, I had the technique down that day.I've been tying for 30 years. Like the techniques in that pattern aren't that difficult. It took me 18 months to get him to approve that fly because it was finding the materials.He was going off materials that he had. So he had this really unique relationship with Tom Schmucker at Wapsi. You know, they had been friends for 40 years.He was out there promoting that company for all that time as well. So his deal was. And when he lived there, he took much more advantage of this.Walk through the warehouse, Dave, take whatever you want, whenever you want. So he would high grade on top of that. Like he would just walk in. Oh, my God. I already have six of those, but that one's amazing. Let me get a seven.So when he passed, he had 28 CRE necks sitting in a. Like a plastic shoebox. That's what he used for his matuka sculpin. You wonder why his matuka sculpens always looked so good.Cause he used actual Cree feathers. Well, you know, I couldn't find those. So. And he. And for the crayfish, he used Cree feathers as well for the claws.And then he would dye those olive, which is why his olive crayfish had that. It. They have a very brassy, shiny quality to them. Cause it wasn't a grizzly feather dyed olive. Right. They just really did look a lot better.But you know, it. After a year and a half, I found the claw materials. Finally I found the. The schloppen material. You know, the dubbing took.You know, that took six or eight months as well, because some of the dubbings that are out there weren't quite right. So he had to teach me how to make his dubbing for those. Um, so he had to go back to, you know, he just made it from Scratch.Every time he had just write it down, say, all right, it's this much of this. And then he sent me like a gallon Ziploc bag of each color. So here, use this as your reference.So, you know, after a while I was able to get my own fiber in to start doing my own blends for that. But there's a lot of stuff like that that's really hard.If you want to tie a really good Semper Fliy, which is an outstanding good fly, it's really hard to find the right tail feathers. You know, if you're on a, a Whiting Farms American hackle, there's only maybe three flies, four flies on that whole saddle.There's just not a lot of really good feathers on it because he really liked long, skinny feathers for that tail. So it's, it is a challenge. What I will say is, is I don't buy re.Pay retail for very much, but when I'm at a store and I see something that's just outstandingly good, I will pay retail. Um, and that, that's the only time I really will, is if it's something that's, you know, just extremely unique and hard to find.But it's, it, it is a serious challenge with some of these flies. Another one. Another material I struggle with is the, the shad cheeks for Dave's swimming and deep sheep shad minnow.They're just mallard flank, which doesn't sound like it's very difficult to get, except for you have to remember most mallard flank is harvested from. Yes, they're wild birds that were hunted, but they're using those plucking machines now. That completely destroys the feather for what I needed to do.If you're gonna palmer it and wrap it, you know, in a streamer, it's fine still. But I need it to stitch to hold that its same shape. So mine basically have to be hand plucked and I don't hunt anymore.Cause I live in New York and there's not really great duck hunting around. So I always have to rely on friends to go out and hunt a duck. And then I have to find somebody that's willing to hand pluck a bird, which is not fun.You know, it's a lot of work. So there's. That's another one that's a challenge to get.

Marvin Cash00:33:40

Yeah. So I guess Wonder Bread and Central park are off limits.

Allen Rupp00:33:44

Yeah. Listen, I'm, I'm sure I could, but I probably shouldn't do that.

Marvin Cash00:33:50

Yeah, fair enough. And so, you know, folks don't know you spend quite a Few hours a week as a commercial tire at your vice.How have these classic patterns affected you as a commercial tier?

Allen Rupp00:34:02

I think it. They. They've made me appreciate, you know, the artfulness that these guys used to have.A lot of people think, you know, and I know Lefty says that Bob was the. The best fly tier he's ever met. And I won't disagree with him. But what I will say is I. I think Dave Whitlock is right there.Maybe even technically better, in my opinion. But they had the same thing that I don't think many other fly tires did.They both studied their quarry or their bait that they were trying to imitate what they might have been. Flies, sculpins, crayfish, all of those different, you know, Bob's out doing shrimp and menhaden and mullet and. Right. Anchovies and sardines.But they looked at their bait more than anybody else in their, you know, their fields. And then they figured out flies that did what the bait did. So I think that's the. The thing those two guys really excelled at.And what I like to do is just be able to bring that back to people nowadays and try to explain to them about why these flies are so good. You know, I. I send a lot of Semper Flis down or out to the Seychelles and down for Golden Dorado, you know, the Gold Dorado.It doesn't matter really what the fly is. You're only getting one or two fish per fly. But the Semper fly has such good action to it. It pushes water. You know, it's a really effective fly.And same with the Seychelles. It's. It's super effective over there. Um, a lot of the guides really, you know, they've started telling people to come with my Semper Flis, which is.That's a big honor over there. Cause they have a lot of choices for flies. So it's. Those are tough ones.

Marvin Cash00:35:51

Yeah, it's interesting. Cause I've always kind of thought that, like, you know, you can be a very, very competent fly tire if you don't fish a lot.But you can't design flies if you're.

Allen Rupp00:36:01

Not solving fishing problems 100% correct. It. It's. And that's where I. I see a lot of people at Instagram and stuff, whatever. And they.They've created this new fly and they're just looking at go.But you took this fly and you made it harder to tie, or you took this fly and you added a tail that can foul now, whereas before the towel, the tail would Never have fouled or the crayfish claws wouldn't, you know, now they can foul and they wouldn't have before you. You're not making it better. Like it's, it is very frustrating to see it, but they look beautiful in the photo and they get a lot.

Marvin Cash00:36:36

Of likes but we won't go down that rabbit hole.But you know, the interesting thing is, you know, I know you have a tremendous affinity for classic patterns, but I'm always curious when I get the hardcore tires. You know, you must have some new tools or materials on your time bench you're playing with, right?

Allen Rupp00:36:51

Listen, I get them. They're, you know, sometimes they're given to me.A lot of the times they're, they're offered to me and you know, I'm one of the few people that unless I actually see a valid need for it, I turn things away a lot. I'm not going to just take something for free and, you know, put it in my tool caddy and never use it.That being said, I, I do have a few tools that I, I absolutely love and I don't know if they're going to be around much more anymore for all of my not big fly stuff. So basically anywhere I'm using 140 denier or less. I have a bunch of Mark Petitjean bobbins. They are so good.But I know that he's just recently sold the company and I don't know if they're going to make the bobbin the same or as good. You never know when there's a change like that.Um, and then, you know, the, the most recent thing that I've changed in my fly tying, it's been about three or four, four years maybe now are with my Renomed scissors. I used to, I've tried every brand of scissors I've ever. You could ever have heard of it. A whole bunch you've never heard of.Um, and prior to that, Chris Helm used to import a German scissor that I, I really liked and I bought the last seven that were in the US And I've still got four sitting in my Caddy.It looks like up there tho, those were the best scissors and I could get four months out of those when I was really tired when I, as you know, you said I, I commercial ties spend about 60 hours a week at the vice. So I was getting four months out of a pair of scissors. My reno meds I can get over a year out of and then on top of it they have a lifetime warranty.So if you get them to turn dull, which at my volume I do. But it takes me a year. The mail em back and then, you know, two or three weeks later there's a new pair in the mail.Like it's a great, it's a great scissor and it's a great deal as well. Those are some things that I, I couldn't live without. Then the other thing that, and I know it's not as much of a tool, but it's different adhesives.I have nine different adhesives on my desk and I used them all in different ways, different times. It's one of the things that I know Dave really taught me a lot about is how to, and where to reinforce flies to make them extremely durable.A lot of his flies, I was always confused when I, when I'd watch him tie it. I was like, wow, that doesn't look like it's going to be very durable.But it's the way he used the adhesives and where he used them and a few subtle things that he did while he was tying. Then all of a sudden you'd go fish it and you'd get a fly that you would look at and go, it's a, you know, the Near Nuff Sculpin is a good example.It's, it doesn't have a wire reinforcing that. The hackle rib, you would think that would, you know, fail after a couple of fish.I have, I can get like 40 or 50 smallmouth or, you know, 40 or 50 trout on that fly before I, you know, something gets in there and nicks that hackle quite often.That's a pretty good, you know, durability level for a fly because, you know, if you did a woolly bugger like that, that thing's gonna fail in, you know, five, six, seven fish quite often. So the adhesives are the other one. And, and the list of adhesives is, like I said, it's lengthy. There's nine.I do have heads, regular old fashioned head cement days, Flexament. I have two different viscosities of Zap a Gap. I have the, the brush on which is the CA plus I have the thin, which is the pink bottle.I do have Softex as well. And then I also have, you know, pick your brand of rubber cement, either E6000 goop or Zap a goo.I use Zap a Goo and then I have my light cured resins that I like. You know, I use Tuffleye. But if you're a fan of RaidZap or Solarez or Gulf or whatever.

Marvin Cash00:40:49

They're.

Allen Rupp00:40:50

They all work pretty well for that. I don't use epoxy anymore. That's the one. I, I luckily have been able to kind of drop out of the.The desk, which is good, because that stuff smells bad.

Marvin Cash00:41:05

Yeah. You have any kind of. You have a squirrely tool that most people wouldn't expect you to have that you can't live without? Really?

Allen Rupp00:41:16

No. I mean, the only one that would be kind of that way would be Dave's bodkin.

Marvin Cash00:41:21

Like, he.

Allen Rupp00:41:21

He made his own bodkin, and he showed me how to make it, and it's just darn effective. It has a dubbing brush on the back. But no, I don't use a lot of tools. I use scissors and my fingers. You know, if I, If I whip finish, it's by hand.But I use Zappa Gap to. To do most of my heads now. I, I'm not a big tool person. I don't use them. You know, I have ballpoint pen casings that I use for hollow fleyes.And I, I, Whatever. You know, every time I go somewhere that has the right pen, I pick, you know, oh, can I have two or three of those?You know, whether it's a restaurant or whatever. Cause I break them all the time, you know, pushing on flies and stuff. So I'm not a big tool person.

Marvin Cash00:42:03

Got it.And, you know, can you maybe pick two or three tips you learned from, like, Dave or Lefty or Bob or Bobby that you could kind of share with us that, you know, folks may not have kind of thought of or heard about before?

Allen Rupp00:42:16

Sure. The. The first rule will be around adhesives.Learned this from Dave, and it was when you have a soft, flexible material, deer hair, something like that, you need a soft, flexible adhesive. So soft materials need a soft adhesive. If you have a. If you put a rigid, hard adhesive on there, I use Zap a Gap.All you do is give it a place for it to bend and crack. And it will. Might not be today. It might be after three or four fish, but that's where.Because it's not flexible, it will end up cracking there and falling off or breaking off. And where that conversation came from was we were doing a deer hair bug. I forget whether it was the hair bug or a diving bug.And we were, you know, putting the eyes in, and I was like, oh, what do you use? The zap gel or Zap? And he goes, nope, flexament.

Marvin Cash00:43:09

I'm like, what? Really?

Allen Rupp00:43:10

He's like, yeah, he pre. Treats the eye cavity with Flexament. Then he fills in the cavity with goop, puts another drop of flexament on top of that and puts the eye into that.He goes.What we've basically done is by pre treating the hair, we've given it something to, for the next level of adhesive to bond to cause flexament will bond to itself. And it just, I, I, I know I've gotten Jeff Rowley to do it and Joe Jackson to, to do it on their bugs.They're getting you know, 60, 70, 80 bass to their before their eyes start to fall out. It's just incredibly more durable. So that's one trick.The other one that I learned from Bob Clouser years ago is if you tie a Clouser fill in the thread wraps to the lead eyes with resin he used. You know, back in the day it was epoxy.Now we can use resin, but if you fill that in and create either a little triangle shape or a little heart shape to it, you have a fly that will slide through grass and sticks and stent, you know, twigs a lot better. And then if you had a weed guard like Dave always did, you can have a fly that's virtually weedless.Now there would be my two or three trips tips for someone.

Marvin Cash00:44:28

Got it.And so of course, you know, you know, if folks want to learn more about these patterns, not just Dave's but you know, Popovics and the others, you know, you spend a fair amount of the year either virtually or in person teaching. You want to kind of let folks know kind of places they might be able to catch up with you.

Allen Rupp00:44:46

Yeah. So listen, the next one I've got coming up at the, I think it's at the end of June here, beginning of July, I'll be on April.Vokey has an April anchored insiders two or three times a year she has me on doing a tiny demonstration for those group of folks. I'll be at Tailwaters Fly Fishing company in Bluff City, Tennessee at the end of August. I think it's the weekend of August 22nd.International fly tying symposiums in November in Jersey. I'll be at the Virginia Fly fishing and Wine festival in early January. Weekend after that there's a fly fishing and whiskey festival in Tennessee.I'll be at that the New Jersey fly fishing show in Edison at the end of January. I go to that one every year. I'm going to get the order wrong now, but I also do the Lancaster fly fishing show. I'll be at Denver as well.And then I always do the Maryland fly fishing and collectible tackle show as well. Just growing up in there, you know, it's kind of a hometown show. It's a very, it's a one day show in March.I also go to the Sowbug Roundup in Mountain Home, Arkansas every year. And I also do the Gulf Coast Classic in Gulf Shores, Alabama.And there's probably another show or two that I do that I have forgotten about, but those are the main ones that I do every year. And I, you know, I sometimes teach classes down at Urban Angler here in Manhattan.And I've got a couple of other fly shops that have asked me to come out that were. I'm working on to see if we can find some time and it works out financially for everyone's. But I, I absolutely love teaching. That's.I would rather teach than tie a fly and try to sell it. But, you know, I gotta make money, which means I gotta sell flies. But the more teaching I do, the happier I am.And I, and I, I learned all of my teaching technique from a guy named Dennis Potter. He's a fly tire from New York. I think it's Traverse City, Michigan, Grand Rapids, Michigan.And he worked with Rusty Gates Ausable Lodge for years and years and years and had a private fly tying section where it was, you could go and you were buying flies that he had tied. But he did a couple hundred dozen every year for that shop. And I think he's an Umpqua Signature tire as well.But anyways, he, I took one of his fly tying classes in the, oh, maybe the mid-2000s. And it was a day and a half class.And at the beginning of the class he goes, all right, so we're gonna sit down, we're gonna tie for eight hours today and four hours tomorrow. And we're not gonna tie a single fly. It's just a techniques class. So he brought out the materials to do mayfly tails on dry flies.He said, all right, so this is how we're gonna do a split V tail. And just doing a figure eight wrap in the back.Now we're gonna do it and we're gonna put a dubbing ball instead and show you how to do it with a dubbing ball. And then we're going to show you how to do kind of like the fan tail. And then we're. And he just kept going through different. And each time it was. He.You watched him tie it, then you tied it, you tied one with him. And then as you were tying a second one on your own, he's getting the materials out for the next technique. So the class actually went pretty quick.Each technique was, you know, 8, 10, 12 minutes long if that. Some of them are much quicker. Right.But he sh, he showed us how to do a, you know, a fat catus dry fly body versus a thin mayfly body versus a, a wolf style body, you know, and how to fold the hair back under to build the bulk underneath the dubbing for a wolf. And just every, every single little technique you can imagine.And that's what I've taken to all of my classes now is I go through, we do one, you or I do one, you guys get to listen to the whole explanation of how and why we do it this way. Then we do one together step by step. Then you guys do one on your own and I'm there to ask questions and walk around. So it's, it works out very well.And I. He's on my mind right now. Cause I know he's going in for open heart surgery here in I think two weeks. So I'm, I'm wishing him the best of luck there.

Marvin Cash00:49:11

Yeah, absolutely. And I would imagine, just because I know you, Allen, that you probably have all the, all the shows and events on your website. Right.

Allen Rupp00:49:19

I had all of last year's. I haven't updated them for next year yet, but thanks for reminding me. I have to get on that.

Marvin Cash00:49:25

It's, it's early but I'll drop a link to that in the show notes. And so yeah, you know, if folks, you know, want to buy flies, what's the process for that? Where should they go?Lead time, all that kind of good stuff.

Allen Rupp00:49:37

Yeah, unfortunately right now my lead time's pushing six or seven weeks. It has consistently for a while. But the best way, if you're looking for anything custom, pick up the phone and give me a call.872-205-9211 Or drop me an email, which is Allen, which is allenn@flyonthewater.com.If you're just looking for kind of standard stuff, I have my Etsy store, which is flyonthewater.etsy.com you can also go to my website and link to it, which is flyonthewater.com those are the best ways to get, you know, most directly there. You can also go through my Instagram or my Facebook page. Facebook is bespoke flies. Instagram is flying on the underscore water.But that's, you know, if you're looking for customer, if you're going on a destination trip, if you're Going to, you know, Ascension Bay or the Bahamas or Argentina or the Amazon or New Zealand. Like, pick up the phone, call me, let's talk about it. Because time of year matters.Which system, what river, you know, what, all of that stuff can matter. So we make sure you get. Plus your casting ability. You know, I can, I can help out with that.You know, I can, I can tie flies with more weight or less weight to make it easier or more difficult to cast. Right. A lot more difficult. But you know, we can, we can adjust things to, to help you out in the situation.

Marvin Cash00:51:01

Got it. And before I let you go this evening, are you working on any projects or any other cool stuff you want to share with our listeners?

Allen Rupp00:51:08

No, just those classes this summer. I've got, like I said, I've got the April Vokey one coming up and then the one in tailwaters and I've got, I think three more.We're trying to figure out sometime in September and October for them. Those are the, those are the main, that's the main focus for the next couple of weeks. I've got a couple of magazine articles coming out this summer.I think the next one's coming out next week, but I'm not allowed to say anything about it yet until it's actually released. But I'm excited for it. Well, actually by the time this comes out, it'll be out.So I have a magazine article on swing nymphing, which is a technique I thought I developed, but it's actually something that Charlie Brooks developed back in like the 40s for fishing on the Yellowstone.But it's a, it's a nymphing technique that I was just trying to copy what we did with spinning rods and light lead headed jigs and I was doing it with my fly rod. And then I found out from Harry Murray that he learned, you know, he'd been doing it and he learned from Charlie Brooks, so.But it's a, it's a very effective technique. I've got it coming out in Dark Skies Fly fishing magazine and I think it comes out Thursday.

Marvin Cash00:52:17

Yeah, very neat. It's kind of funny you say that because it reminds me of listening to Harry in one of his trout videos talking about, Talking about exactly that.

Allen Rupp00:52:25

Yeah. Oh, it's, he's been talking about it for, I don't know, 40 years.But I thought I, I figured it out because on my own when I was fishing the upper potomac As a 15 year old kid, because I just, I did the exact same thing I was doing with light lead headed jigs and soft plastics with my flies was crushing fish. And I thought I, you know, I thought I was this great inventor of technique. And it wasn't until 10 years later that I.It was actually when I got Harry Murray's book, Fly Fishing for Smallmouth Bass, he had a whole chapter on it. I was like, this is what I've been doing. So, yeah, I thought I had invented something, and I hadn't.

Marvin Cash00:53:06

Yeah, I'll. I'll leave you with your disappointment on that one. But the.Is there anything else you want to share with our listeners before I let you hop this evening?

Allen Rupp00:53:14

No, just thank you for having me on. It's been really fun.

Marvin Cash00:53:16

Yeah, absolutely. And also, too, I know you. You gave it to us a few minutes ago, but I assume Instagram is probably your favorite flavor of social, right?

Allen Rupp00:53:25

Sure. Fly on the underscore water.

Marvin Cash00:53:27

Gotcha. Well, I will drop all that stuff in the show notes, and I appreciate you making the time.

Allen Rupp00:53:33

All right, thanks, Marvin.

Marvin Cash00:53:35

Take care. Well, folks, we hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you.Don't forget to check out the links to all this episode's sponsors in the show notes. Tight lines, everybody.