S5, Ep 63: Nick Conklin of Temple Fork Outfitters

**Marvin Cash (00:04):** Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. On this episode, I'm joined by Nick Conklin from Temple Fork Outfitters. Nick shares his fly fishing journey, gives us a peek behind the curtain at TFO, and shares the detail of two new rods TFO is releasing soon. I think you're really going to enjoy this one.

But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. Shout out to this episode's sponsor. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Artisan Angler. If you're looking for a better way to organize your flies, tippet, and tools, you should check out the Flytrap at artisananglerllc.com. I've dropped the link in the show notes. They sell direct through Amazon, so you get prime shipping and free returns. It doesn't get any easier than that. Make your time on the water more productive and check out the Flytrap today.

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Now, on to the interview. Well, Nick, welcome to The Articulate Fly.

**Nick Conklin (01:42):** Thank you, sir. Appreciate you having me on.

**Marvin Cash (01:42):** Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. And we have a tradition on The Articulate Fly. We like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

**Nick Conklin (01:42):** Oh, happy to. I mean, like I said, I feel like we should be sitting around the campfire and having a cocktail and talking about the end of the day. But we can talk about some fishing memories.

So first fishing memory for me was probably the first time I could stand up and walk down to the end of the dock and not either fall in the water or hook any of my siblings. So I grew up in Michigan. Just a quick little background. Grew up fishing, was raised on a little 70-acre-plus private lake in northern Michigan. So I spent all my summers up there, and from the first time I could, again, stand up and not hook anybody, pressed down on a push-button Snoopy pole, I was fishing in a northern Michigan lake — largemouth bass, all kinds of panfish, pike, a little bit of walleye.

Then walking across the street was the South Branch of the Pere Marquette River. For any listeners out there that are familiar with the PM, I was pretty privileged, if you want to say it that way, to fish that river and grow up in that lifestyle. So a lot of good memories fishing that way.

**Marvin Cash (02:55):** Yeah, and so that means you were really, I guess, like north central, kind of northeastern. So you were like maybe the ring finger and the pinky finger in the mitten?

**Nick Conklin (03:04):** Yeah, closer to the pinky. Again, Baldwin was a lovely, lovely big town I spent most of my summers in. I grew up down kind of more western Michigan in Grand Rapids, Michigan, which not much different. You could go, you know, 10 minutes in any direction and find some good fishable water. But spent my summers up north and got to lake fish and small stream fish. And when I got a little bit older, I could get dropped off down on the main branch of the Pere Marquette and learn — conventional tackle, but also fly fish that way.

**Marvin Cash (03:37):** So a lot of good opportunities. Yeah, and so when did you exactly come to the dark side of fly fishing?

**Nick Conklin (03:43):** Oh, the dark side, the lovely side. I would say I was about eight years old when I got serious — and I'm doing an air quote on "serious." Obviously, at the time, I thought I was serious. One of the cool things about this sport is no matter how old you are, how much experience you have, you can always grow. You can always adapt and learn new things.

But I would say I was about eight years old is when I really got serious about it, and had a neighbor up at the lake that had some VHS tapes and a lot of books. And we'll do a pause for everyone that needs to Google what VHS tapes means. But watched a lot of tapes and read a lot of books. You know, at that time, folks like Lefty Kreh and Ed and Bob Clouser and Flip and everyone was writing books. And that's how you learn to cast a fly rod — looking at old black-and-white pictures and VHS tapes.

So I got, again, what I say, I got serious about it then, and borrowed my grandfather's rod and stood on the dock for hours and hours. And both my dad and my grandpa gave me casting tips, and I'd run back inside and reread this book, whatever page this was, or replay this VHS tape and just tried to learn it that way. And that's kind of how I got started.

**Marvin Cash (05:01):** Yeah, that's neat. It's kind of funny — I've talked about this with other guests. Fish TV and their fly fishing channel, they have a ton of those old VHS tapes with like Lefty Kreh and Bob and, yeah, it's pretty crazy. Popovics is on there. And it's kind of cool to see those things, you know, particularly after you've known these guys in the industry. But it's super neat to go back and watch those old tapes. I'm glad people kept those, as well as the ones that — I can't remember the name of the company — the ones that did the ones with Kelly Galloup and Davy Wotton and —

**Nick Conklin (05:32):** All those guys. Oh, all those guys that were — I mean, that was, at least in my eyes, how you learned how to fly fish. And watching some of the old Walker Cay Chronicles tapes — that's how I learned to cast. At least in my eyes, that's how I learned to cast a fly rod, outside of some outside advice. But that was the resource at the time, right? You read books and you watch videotapes and you just kind of figured it out on your own.

**Marvin Cash (06:00):** So yeah, interesting. And so, you know, you had books and VHS tapes and your dad and your grandfather. Who are some other folks that have mentored you on your journey, and what have they taught you?

**Nick Conklin (06:10):** Outside of growing up where I grew up, I was pretty lucky to have some parents that were very supportive of my fishing and just outdoors career. They never put a ton of restrictions on me outside of just, you have to be serious about school. There's a funny story we can talk about later about me wanting to move to the little town near my cottage to be a fishing guide and kind of be a bum. But they didn't let me do that. They made me stick in school and stay in the city.

So early on, again, reading books and watching tapes — Lefty Kreh, Bob Clouser, people like Flip Pallot. Then I started to really, post-eight years old, nine years old, get really into some of what I'd call the casting mentalist folks. You know, Ed Jaworowski and some of those people that really would break down a cast and fixate on, all right, your rod tip's doing this, your hand's doing this, your body's doing this, what's the end result? So really dove into some of those mentors.

And obviously, as I've worked more into TFO and gotten into the industry, there's a whole grocery list of folks that have helped me evolve not only my rod knowledge and casting knowledge but just general fishing industry knowledge. So a lot of family support and just a lot of — I don't know if you call it good luck and good timing — just to land in Michigan where I did and eventually land down here in Texas.

**Marvin Cash (07:37):** So, yeah, if you could do the summers in Michigan and the winters in Texas, it'd be pretty good, right?

**Nick Conklin (07:45):** Oh, absolutely. That was my goal when I was a small child. I mean, I'm only in my mid-30s now, but it's still my life's ambition — summers up north and the rest of the year down in the south.

**Marvin Cash (07:59):** So, yeah. And so you were lucky, right, to grow up in Michigan where you have a lot of different kinds of fishing opportunities. What's your favorite species of fish to chase on the fly?

**Nick Conklin (08:11):** Oh, that's a loaded question and a wonderful question to ask. So I still have a soft spot in my heart for brown trout and steelhead. Messed up a lot of good fishing opportunities growing up on the Pere Marquette with wonderful steelhead, wonderful browns, good rainbows, and, you know, hot salmon coming out of Lake Michigan.

I've shifted a little bit the last couple of years, started to focus a little bit more on the saltwater pursuits. Fascinated by sharks these days. I don't know what it is. I think they're a great animal and a good pursuit, not just on fly but on conventional gear. Got some tuna on my mind here soon. I know that sounds like a weird answer, but pretty much anything. We have some killer striped bass lakes here around the Dallas–Fort Worth area that are a lot of fun to fish, especially on a fly rod. So pretty much anything that comes up, to put it simply.

**Marvin Cash (09:13):** There you go. And, you know, folks may not know this, but you're a bit of a Spey rod nut. When did you get into fishing Spey rods?

**Nick Conklin (09:21):** Oh, a nut is putting it nicely. So I picked up a two-handed rod, a longer rod, probably later in my high school days. Again, we were fishing Michigan and just trying to figure out a more efficient way to deliver a big heavy sink tip and a big fly. And at that time — this was early 2000s, right? So not too long ago — but the line and tip technology wasn't quite there. At least we didn't know about it, right? We were doing everything the hard way.

We had old Wind Cutter lines, which are 50-plus feet. We were chopping up sink tip trolling lines. We had some lead core lines. We used to fish Michigan for salmon, right? So we were just chopping up lines and putting loops on it and just trying to figure it out, and fishing long 14-foot — at the time they called them 9-weight lines. So 9-weight rods, excuse me. So 600-plus grains, really just aggressive, obtrusive stuff that we were just trying to figure out.

So I started there. My two good friends — one's gone on to be a pretty prolific guide, both in Michigan and Colorado; the other friend's gone on to run a successful mobile hunting archery-type business — but both of those guys kind of got me into it. For whatever reason, the efficiency, the ability to reposition line and just fish heavier flies, get down in the water column, just appealed to me. So I kind of took it from there. And when I went to move down to TFO, that kind of opened up a whole other world of opportunities in the two-handed realm.

**Marvin Cash (11:04):** Yeah, you're their resident two-handed rod propeller head, right?

**Nick Conklin (11:10):** I was. I guess I still am. I was at the time, but it was one of those things — you walk into the NBA locker room and everyone's got a lot of experience and a lot of skills. And it's kind of like, well, what can I do that's going to set me apart and make me an asset and make me useful here? So I gravitated more towards that as I've gone on. And it just was an opportunity to be involved and to contribute to the team.

**Marvin Cash (11:38):** Yeah, I think the interesting thing too about Spey casting is that I think a lot of anglers think you have to fish a switch rod or you have to fish a two-handed rod. And you should really let folks kind of get a feel for how you can basically take your 9-foot 5-weight and use Spey techniques and really have a much better day on the water.

**Nick Conklin (11:59):** Well, absolutely. And you can even step back and stop calling it a Spey, stop calling it a switch, because a lot of that just confuses people. And for whatever reason, the fishing industry, the fly fishing industry, just likes to try to make things difficult for people. Call it a single-handed rod, call it a two-handed rod, call it a Spey rod — the idea is a more efficient tool, a more efficient lever to pick up and reposition line. So a lot of things translate, that correlate from your single-hand casting to your two-hand casting. So it's not as daunting as it should be. Unfortunately, it kind of gets that way and people look at it oddly.

I was lucky enough to get some casting opportunities this spring at the fly fishing shows and some other smaller regional shows. And my whole point of the conversation was all the principles translate. You could break it down to some simple ideas. So whether you've picked up a two-handed rod before, fished a lot, or you're just brand new to the idea, there's a way to make the whole process more efficient, a little bit easier, hopefully more enjoyable, right? That's the point of the sport — to have fun and enjoy it.

**Marvin Cash (13:10):** Yeah. I try to tell people it's kind of like there's more than one kind of D loop, right? And so once you kind of get that concept, it kind of opens up the world for you.

**Nick Conklin (13:20):** Yeah. It should open up the world, and it's not all black and white. The plane's going to change and a lot of things are going to change in the cast. But can you effectively and efficiently pick up the line, reposition the fly, and again, spend more time with the fly in the water, which should ultimately be the goal, right?

**Marvin Cash (13:39):** There might be a slight positive correlation to catching more fish.

**Nick Conklin (13:43):** Yeah, that's the idea at least. So get rid of the mystique and all the confusion of terminology and grain weights and line weights and rod lengths and everything else.

**Marvin Cash (13:54):** So, yeah. And it's funny, too, because if folks don't know that you're a two-handed — well, I don't even know what we should call it — fanatic?

**Nick Conklin (14:07):** Two-handed. Fair enough.

**Marvin Cash (14:08):** And so if we go with that — but folks may not know that kind of before you got into the fishing game professionally, you were a journalist and an outdoor writer. And I was really curious where your love of storytelling and writing came from.

**Nick Conklin (14:24):** Absolutely. So that was my path since I was in fourth grade. Again, putting some dates and some ages on it. But that was what I felt was the right path for me. I read Ernest Hemingway's Nick Adams stories — specifically the "Big Two-Hearted River" story he wrote within that, which, you know, there's some debate on whether it was the lower peninsula or upper peninsula, but that's for your Michigan-specific listeners — and that was really the story I read that said, all right, you're meant to be either a writer or somehow in the fishing industry. Can you figure out how to merge both?

So really since that time I was fixated and interested in writing. That's what I went to college for. Got a journalism degree and tried to work my way up through very regional and local newspapers, and was lucky enough to get some freelance gigs in national newspapers and some magazines. And that's eventually how I found my way down to Texas here.

**Marvin Cash (15:31):** Yeah, it's neat. It's funny, because I've got a copy that's got all of the Nick Adams stories but they're in chronological order. So it's kind of a kick to read them in order and hear about Petoskey and the whole nine yards.

**Nick Conklin (15:48):** Yeah, and those were just a lot of stories that resonated well with me, again, growing up in that part of Michigan, and at the time trying to understand the best I could about what he was writing about. You have other folks — Jim Harrison would write about Michigan — and it was an opportunity to be into the fishing space and be into reading at the time. There were a lot of great books being written, and it's great to stumble across them.

**Marvin Cash (16:17):** Yeah. And so anybody else, in addition to Harrison and Hemingway, that kind of influenced you or you still follow today?

**Nick Conklin (16:26):** Oh, absolutely. So a lot of still a lot of Hemingway. And I still think the nuns to this day, if they're still around, will doubt that I actually read that when I was in fourth and fifth grade. I pulled some of those books out — The Old Man and the Sea — and they just stared at me like, you're not reading this, you're how many years old? You can't comprehend these types of books.

So a lot of those more traditional authors. I'm still a voracious reader when it comes to Florida fiction. You know, you get people like Carl Hiaasen, Tim Dorsey, Randy Wayne White — that's a good crossover, not just fiction but also fishing-related author. So still very into those books, reading a lot more about the expansion of the West and different things. But I try to maintain a pretty robust fishing and fly fishing-specific library. I was buying a bunch of used books the other day during independent bookstore day and just trying to build that type of library and remind people that's an important thing to remember and to share.

**Marvin Cash (17:35):** So, yeah, it's funny you say that — there's a family-owned bookstore in my hometown and they not only have new books but they have a massive used and collectible book section. And every time I go home, I have to hit that to see what I can pick up.

**Nick Conklin (17:49):** Yeah, I mean, it's a hard thing not to go spend some money. You pick up a book — I picked up one from an original pressing from 1948 and then I found a surf fishing book from the late '70s. So that's still a fun thing to get into. Still try to read as much as I can — just random fiction, Florida fiction, mystery, things like that.

**Marvin Cash (18:18):** Yeah, that's neat. And so I'm really curious — I always like to ask writers that wrote for newspapers or magazines if you remember the first piece that you got paid for and how it made you feel.

**Nick Conklin (18:27):** I remember the first piece I got paid for that I felt really good about. So I was, you know, working my way through high school and into college — just went to a little tiny school up in northern Michigan — so I worked for some local newspapers and I did some small beats and things like that.

The first dramatic, you know, earth-shaking, "I've made it, I'm something" — which, years later now, you're like, yeah, I'm glad they just paid me money and gave me an opportunity — was Field & Stream. So I was at the time — this may have changed, I'll have to double-check with the editor if he's still there — but I was at the time the youngest writer to have been published in Field & Stream magazine. I was about 21 or 22, and it was a several-week process. It wasn't something where, oh, I wrote the article and here's the check. It was a very generous check. It was wonderful at the time. Granted, I was still in college, so any money was great.

But it was just a very proud moment. I had two close friends that were very happy for me and wanted to celebrate. We went to this little local bar in Michigan — it's a sportsman's bar, right? There's mounted fish, and there's rods and reels, and there's a bunch of old copies of Field & Stream magazine from the '50s and '60s, framed. And they felt the need to grab one for me in honor, and I'm saying this hoping that the statute of limitations has run out on that. But it was a very proud moment. I was very happy to have some close friends there with me for that first Field & Stream article.

So it turned into an okay career after that. I was able to write a little bit more for them, wrote for the Drake and some other outdoor-specific newspapers and magazines. But that was probably the best moment when that one was published. And again, I'm sitting in my office here in Dallas and it is framed right behind me. So every time there's a Zoom call or a meeting, I get to see that in the background. That's pretty cool. Good memories for sure.

**Marvin Cash (20:47):** Yeah. And so tell me a little bit about how you found your way to TFO and what attracted you to the company.

**Nick Conklin (20:53):** Yeah. So it was kind of a roundabout story. So I was wrapping up my college days up at Central Michigan and was trying to write and figure out that career path. And it was a little bit bleak, to be honest with you. When you're in college and doing some other things, a paycheck every couple months isn't too bad. But as an adult that's got to pay bills and work his way through life, it wasn't great.

So I started looking around at fishing industry-specific companies. I'd done some work in Texas, worked for a great boss, David Sams, who ran Lone Star Outdoor News. I worked for them for a couple summers as an intern. Came back to Michigan, continued to work for them. And I did my second round of junior year just because I enjoyed it so much. And I was graduating finally and had to figure out something to do.

Again, I knew the journalism path would be difficult. So I just started applying and sending out resumes and information to a couple of outdoor-specific companies, mainly manufacturers. And Rick Pope, the founder and president of TFO at the time, was one of the very, very few that ever responded and just kept the communication line open and said, hey, if you ever get your way back to Texas — because I kind of shared with him that I enjoyed my time in Texas, I liked working for the newspapers down there, I would like to come back, I'm tired of Michigan winters, don't like the snow and the cold, Texas seems like an opportunity-rich place — let's see what's happening.

So he was kind enough to just keep that conversation going. I moved down and worked for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, working nights on the sports desk and getting yelled at by all the moms of football players that thought their stats were better than they were. And I was doing that at nights, and I went over to TFO and did an interview one day. I met with all the partners, which were a lot of working partners at the time, and spent about eight hours there and went to lunch and went to dinner and eventually got brought on. Rick hired me, and then they all took off to Brazil for a couple weeks. I was left to kind of figure it out on my own. It was an interesting journey, but again, I kind of gave it my best shot and moved to Texas — which will be almost 12 years ago now — with a suitcase and a backpack. So it was a committed process.

**Marvin Cash (23:35):** Yeah, that's pretty neat, because that was back in the days — like in the original facility, which was near Restaurant Row, right?

**Nick Conklin (23:42):** Yep, over by Love Field there. And again, I sold pretty much everything I had. So I was taking the bus and the train at that time, and I bussed over to Love Field in my little white shirt and black tie, and did an interview and sat there for a couple hours and talked to everybody. And it obviously turned out to be a wonderful deal, but it was definitely a leap of faith on their part. I'm some Yankee guy that they've never heard of, and they took a chance for sure. But I think it's paid off.

**Marvin Cash (24:15):** Yeah, it's neat. And I think the amazing thing, too, is you wear a ton of hats at TFO. And, you know, I thought you could share with our listeners — because if you go to your LinkedIn profile, I mean, I think you've got like six things that you've done in the past that are still continuing to today. You want to kind of let folks know all the things you're in charge of at the company?

**Nick Conklin (24:32):** Oh, I just try to put pieces together. But yes, I'm in charge of a lot of things. And I was thinking about it earlier — I started working in the warehouse, packing boxes, working on warranties, and have moved up since then.

My current title is the fly fishing product category manager. I'll handle all of our product design and development, get to work with all of our dealers, advisors — again, people like Blane Chocklett, Jason Randall, Flip Pallot, all the folks you've already had on. Also work with all of our fly fishing sales reps; we have 12 currently around the country. Work with our international dealers and distributors — that's definitely a growing market for us. And I run all of our trade shows and events. So I spent a lot of time on the road talking to dealers, talking to consumers, building show booths, and just trying to get the brand message out there.

**Marvin Cash (25:29):** Yeah, and you're still the two-handed guy.

**Nick Conklin (25:32):** Yep, and still — single-handed rods, two-handed rods. Two-handed rods obviously are still a passion. Still a way I love to fish, and I was just down on the coast doing some two-handed overhead casting in the surf. Not too much luck, but still enjoy that type of casting. So if it's a fly rod or fly reel or accessory at TFO, I'm usually the one trying to put the pieces together and figure out the way to make it a little bit more enjoyable for the angler.

**Marvin Cash (26:02):** Yeah, that's neat. And so what's your favorite part of working at the company?

**Nick Conklin (26:08):** Favorite part is just the enjoyment people get out of the sport. Again, spend a lot of time traveling and working and dealing with people and dealing with everything that goes into travel. Just the enjoyment people find in it. I could be ornery, grumpy, tired. But when someone walks in the booth and just shares a story about what they like about fly fishing or what they like about TFO, it's hard to not smile and just be happy. Again, it's everyone's leisure time and leisure money. This is what they want to do. This is what makes them happy. I'm here to just try to help facilitate that.

So it definitely makes me happy that people enjoy it and are into it. And as you spend time doing this, you get to know people, right? Even if they're just a normal customer that fishes a couple of times a year, they're into it. They love the sport. They're fired up about it, fired up about the product. Makes it worthwhile.

**Marvin Cash (27:10):** Yeah. I also would say you guys have one of the more active booths at the trade shows, whether it's the business trade shows or the consumer shows. And so it's always a good place to hang out. I'm a big fan of your foam flooring — it's very good on the feet.

**Nick Conklin (27:27):** Well, thank you.

**Marvin Cash (27:29):** Yeah.

**Nick Conklin (27:29):** Thank you. Try to make it a comfortable environment. Make it a booth people want to come into, tell their fishing story, tell me about the things they like. More importantly, if there's something they don't like, something we can do better, that definitely helps too. But want it to be an open, welcoming environment and a good experience for everyone.

**Marvin Cash (27:47):** Yeah. And I would add all the hand sanitizer you could possibly need.

**Nick Conklin (27:52):** I'm pretty particular about that part too. So, you know, you mentioned that you're the product category manager, and that puts you kind of in charge of all R&D on the fly rod side. And I think folks see your rods in shops and at trade shows, but I think most people have absolutely no idea what it takes to bring a rod to market.

**Marvin Cash (27:59):** And I was kind of wondering if you could walk us through the typical development process and literally how long it takes — from the idea, when you guys are sitting in the conference room saying, I think this would be a good idea, to the rod that people see in the store.

**Nick Conklin (28:30):** Absolutely. So the quick answer is it takes a long time to put together. I've been working on rods that we may not move to market until 2025, 2026 or later. I typically operate off of a five-year plan that I re-adjust and re-evaluate every couple of months. Most rods will take a year and a half, two years, depending on what the intention is, what the goal is, who's on the project.

Some advisors are a little bit more particular, which I love, about how they want a rod to feel, how they want it finished out. And we did some good videos a few years ago in our exclusive TFO factory about essentially that question, right? What does it take to make a fly rod, to build a fly rod?

So it's a longer process probably than most people realize. It's about solving a goal or answering a question, right? How do we solve this problem? Someone wants to cast a fly or get a fly to these types of fish, and how do they do it most efficiently? Of course, we're dealing with people that have different casting abilities and skill, but how do we do this effectively, and do this at a price point that makes sense for what they want to do? So a lot goes into it. A lot more science and math than I'll admit that I thought was in play when I first got into this business. But as a non-engineer, there's a lot of ways you could solve the problem or answer the question that makes sense, and you could turn out a good product for people.

**Marvin Cash (30:15):** So, yeah. And I think people — maybe they don't understand — you've got your own factory in Korea. And so when you're prototyping rods, you're literally having conversations. Blanks get made, get shipped to the U.S. Ambassadors and field testers test them, bundle up that feedback, send it back to Korea. They make new blanks and send it back, and you keep iterating that process till everybody's happy, right?

**Nick Conklin (30:42):** Yeah, essentially, that's the way it goes. Our factory is exclusive — it's been exclusive for 30 years, since we started this business — so they're only making TFO fly rods there. So I have almost daily conversations with BJ, who's our lead engineer. And again, I don't have a deep science background; he's an engineer and he knows how to put a lot of those pieces together in a way that I do not know how to do.

But I take a lot of feedback from, again, a lot of our advisors, a lot of our ambassadors, our 750-plus nationwide dealers. This is a tool they need to accomplish this job. How do we make it? How do we make it at a sound price with components that are going to hold up, in a style that fits for our brand?

**Marvin Cash (31:35):** Yeah. And I think it's interesting, too, right? Because Temple Fork has really been built around the philosophy of producing reasonably priced high-performance gear. And I was kind of curious — two things. One, what challenges does that create in the design process? And also, how about the marketing process? Because some people think that a $1,200 rod has to be three times better than a $400 rod. So I was kind of curious if you wanted to talk about that a little bit.

**Nick Conklin (32:06):** Well, absolutely. That's an unfortunate misconception, right? No different than the Spey, switch, line, two-handed rods conversation — a lot of that's been misconstrued to think, well, this is what you need. We're going to throw a bunch of terminology at you, now we're going to throw a bunch of price points and money at you. And, you know, old football axiom, right? You can't just walk up to a rack and buy the skills, right? You can't put the money down and just expect this rod, this reel, whatever tool you're buying, to perform how you think it's going to perform. You've got to earn those skills.

So a lot goes into keeping it both a quality product, but also the design process and keeping it a reasonable tool. A lot of challenges there. TFO has presented some interesting challenges — for a lot of years we've made some really amazing products. Talk about the Professional Series, whatever iteration: Professional I, Professional II, go back to the BVKs, TICRs, TICRXs. So you start to think, and one of the challenges I have — which everyone has at TFO, not just specific to me — is, what improvements are you making to this product? Are you messing with a classic? Whatever the classic is, are you doing it because you want to do it, you want to look smarter, or are you improving it somehow?

So a lot of the fly rod design function is, how are we improving this rod? What are we doing to make it a little bit better without just increasing the price and making it seem like it's better? How are we evolving it? What are we doing to make it a better tool for the customer while trying to keep the price sound?

**Marvin Cash (33:58):** Yeah, it's an interesting thing too, right? Because it's not just fly fishing — it's everything. So like, you know, basketball shoes get refreshed every year. And so there's this kind of trap that you get into, this kind of almost a fictional product generation cycle that's really not necessarily correlated with product improvement.

**Nick Conklin (34:20):** Well, absolutely. And yeah, you get into a trap, right? I was reading a David Bowie quote earlier about that, right? Talking about writing music and producing characters and just coming up with things. And when you get into a trap — which has accelerated the last couple of years — previously, we could have rods in the market 8, 10, 12 years. Sales would be consistent. Consumers would be happy. It makes sense. Nowadays the attitudes have definitely shortened. We've got to cycle out rods in seven years, five years. Man, that's also starting to drop, and attitudes have shifted.

And again, it's not all about sales, but the attention span, right, has all of a sudden changed. And you see companies that are turning over rods in three years. And while I understand that, and that makes sense in terms of sales, you're kind of sticking your dealers and your consumers with something. Every three years you're coming out with something new. So definitely a line to tell and something you have to be aware of.

And again, I say I have a five-year production plan that changes every couple of months, because you don't know — components could change, attitudes can change, there could be some new technique, there could be something else in the high-stick nymph market that comes up that, man, we're not making this rod, we've got to look into this market. So there's a lot that changes, and unfortunately it takes a while to put everything in front of the customer and have all the other assets together. So a little bit more developed process than probably most folks realize.

**Marvin Cash (35:58):** Yeah, but it's kind of cool, right? Speaking about new rods, you've got two that are coming out here pretty soon — the Blitz and the Signature 3. And I thought it would be kind of cool — we can start with the Blitz. If you want to kind of tell us a little bit about the rod and the fishing problem, because like you were saying, you like to kind of find a problem or an improvement you can make and not just turn stuff out. What was the fishing problem you were trying to solve with the rod?

**Nick Conklin (36:24):** So the theory, the idea behind the Blitz was — a lot of people fish sinking lines, intermediate lines, sink tip lines, big heavy things. What's a rod that's going to better sustain that load, be a little bit more efficient casting tool? A lot of rods, right, gone really fast, really stiff — and that's not always the best tool to unroll the flyline, deliver the fly.

So this rod sits in what we'd call a unique spot in our saltwater-specific rod lineup where the Axiom 2X is a little bit faster and stiffer. So if you're carrying a floating line at distance, got some distance shots, maybe a better tool for you. The Blitz series is a little bit better suited for the heavy line applications, right? Talking to my ambassador Joe Maz, he said, well, this is a fishing rod, not a casting rod. While it casts beautifully, it's still designed and engineered to deliver a big heavy line and a big fly a little bit more efficiently. It's got some other finish-out things that are a little bit different, some improved guides, and trying to update the look and the feel of some of our saltwater-specific fly rods.

**Marvin Cash (37:35):** Yeah, got it. And so to solve that sinking line problem — because I don't fish sinking lines a lot, and when I do, it drives me nuts — from a design perspective, does that mean you're making a rod that's kind of moving away from a fast to more of a medium action, but it's probably got a little bit more backbone kind of deeper down towards the butt? Is that kind of how you work on that sinking line large fly problem?

**Nick Conklin (37:59):** So yes and no, right? Remember, keep in mind, action is different than stiffness or softness. And that's another one of those wonderful fishing-related things that kind of gets misconstrued. And you'll go back and forth from the fly fishing and the conventional world on how to describe a fast action or a heavy action. All those things, right?

Think of action as where the rod bends; stiffness and softness is the resistance of bending. So while this rod is a fast action, it's kind of got more of a middle or intermediate level of stiffness. So it's got plenty of power in the butt. But when you go to pick up a big heavy sinking line, an intermediate line, and a big fly, you can sustain that load a little bit easier than if you had a very fast and very stiff rod, or a slower, softer rod.

So a lot of terminology there, but an important distinction that consumers hopefully are starting to get and understand — that there is a difference. Unfortunately, the term "fast action" gets thrown around and doesn't necessarily do a lot of rods, not just TFO rods but a lot of rods, a real justice. So there's a different tool for a different job. And that's what we're trying to share with everyone here with the Blitz series.

**Marvin Cash (39:15):** Yeah, it's neat, too, right? Because when you have more of a value pricing performance paradigm, you actually enter a position where you could conceivably buy two or three rods for the price of one rod. And it gives you — it's almost like buying a custom pitching wedge set.

**Nick Conklin (39:32):** Yeah, and hopefully that eliminates a little bit of the barrier to entry. That was always always the model — you don't have to spend this amount of money to get into the sport. You could be a little bit more price-focused and then, as you delve into it, you get a little bit more specific, you figure out what you want, what you like, the type of rod — no different than a golf club. I mean, it's personal preference. And I don't know how many calls and emails I take and answer a day where people want, well, what's your favorite rod? What do you like about this? What do you like about that? Well, you really have to pick something up and cast it. It's not a silver bullet. You've got to — it's not an easy sales pitch all the time. But that's how this type of world operates.

**Marvin Cash (40:20):** It's funny, you take the leftover money and you get casting lessons and a little bit of money for beer and bourbon, right?

**Nick Conklin (40:27):** There you go. Go to your local shop, get some casting lessons, and understand that your casting is going to evolve. I talk about picking up a fly rod at eight years old. I promise you at 34, my casting's evolved I don't know how many dozens of times. And it probably evolved just this spring, sitting there watching people and casting at shows. It's not something that's just going to stick with you — you're going to evolve and adapt, and rods are going to change. Pick up the rod and cast it yourself and don't necessarily listen to what you're being told.

**Marvin Cash (41:00):** Right, but yeah, for sure. I know Lefty Kreh always did such a good job of letting people know that different people with different body types and different physical abilities had to cast the fly rod differently.

**Nick Conklin (41:17):** No, absolutely. And he was a great example and great mentor when it comes to that type of thought — when it came to that type of thought, it was, you know, there's different ways to do this. Just because you're being told this one way, there's no one way to do it. Someone tells you there's only one way to do things, you might want to question it. There are different ways to operate it, right? It's a tool. There's a different way to swing a hammer. There's a different way to do other things. So don't let what you're being told or what you think is the only way to do it derail you from figuring out your own route.

**Marvin Cash (41:54):** Yeah, for sure. And tell me a little bit about your Signature 3.

**Nick Conklin (41:59):** So the Signature 3 is going to be an evolution of our two-piece rods. I know it's not very common these days, but two-piece rods still hold a special place in a lot of anglers' hearts. And it's a really efficient rod. So it'll be a 2-weight through a 10-weight series — everything from some small creek fishing to the salmon and steelhead folks, or some of the boat rod anglers that are just looking for a little bit easier way to transport a rod. Again, evolution of an existing two-piece series. But trying to trim things down and make the SKUs and the models a little bit easier for dealers and consumers to understand, but keep a really strong price point that fits in the market and deliver a good product at a sound price.

**Marvin Cash (42:49):** Yeah. So just to let folks know kind of the performance differences between, say, a three- and a four-piece rod and a two-piece rod — I mean, I think people understand you break them down, they're longer. And if you don't have to break them down or you're driving to fish, size is not a big deal. But it definitely has some design and performance things you have to think about too, right?

**Nick Conklin (43:12):** Yeah, and again, it's a function of travel. Pretty lucky these days with the materials we get to work with. What was a two- or three-piece rod 10 or 15 years ago is negligible now. You wouldn't notice a difference. There'd be no real weight difference, no performance difference. So what graphite and carbon fiber has done in the last couple of years has been absolutely wonderful. Some wonderful materials to work with. So really no difference. It's just a convenience factor for anglers.

Machining — how we operate our mandrels, and how almost everybody operates mandrels, how they build and design their mandrels — there's no real difference from a two-piece to a four-piece. It's just something that, I don't want to say specialized, but it fits certain markets, certain anglers and guides and boats and different things a little bit differently than it used to. But performance-wise, the materials are so great these days across the board that there's really no difference. Just preference.

**Marvin Cash (44:20):** Yeah, got it. And so when can folks expect to see these rods at their TFO dealer?

**Nick Conklin (44:25):** So new rods will be out end of June. EFTTEX, which is the European Fishing Tackle Trade Exposition — we always release our new products there — will be June 21st as the public launch of both the Blitz and the Signature 3. And then dealers will be able to start ordering soon after that. We'll have ICAST, which is the International Tackle Convention in Orlando in July, which will have a lot of dealers there and a lot of interest. And our program starts in early fall — September, October. So those rods will be out hopefully by end of June. And social media-wise, they should be seeing a few posts and some snippets here in the next couple of days.

**Marvin Cash (45:11):** Yeah, there you go. And of course, in your abundant spare time, you're a relatively newly elected board member to AFFTA. For folks that don't know what AFFTA is, you want to tell them a little bit about it and kind of what it does to support our industry?

**Nick Conklin (45:27):** Absolutely. So yes, in all my free time — I'm on three boards. AFFTA, which is the American Fly Fishing Trade Association, whose goal is to support manufacturers, retailers, guide operations, and a lot of lodge operations in the fly fishing industry. One of their bigger functions, one of their bigger presentations, if you will, is what formerly was called IFTD, which is now called the Confluence, which is our trade show for the fly fishing industry. The goal being to bring all these interests together and provide a financially beneficial situation for them. Retailers can come in, have special ordering, special buying with manufacturers, be part of the community.

So very community-focused — a lot of transitions, a lot of changes going on within AFFTA, positive changes. Elected a lot of people to the board, relatively new president. So a lot of good things going on. But it's about, again, making it financially beneficial for its members. There are some other incentives for folks like that. But keeping the community attitude strong while backing it up with some financially beneficial situations for everyone.

**Marvin Cash (46:53):** So, yeah, it's interesting, right? I mean, I've been at several shows. I know Lucas and Ken and everybody at AFFTA have been working really hard, because the industry has changed so much in the last 10 or 15 years. And so I think the fundamental idea is you can't keep the trade show experience the same either. So I think they've really been working hard to come up with a new model that, to your point, covers as many bases as possible to make it as industry-inclusive and as profitable for dealers and everybody else too.

**Nick Conklin (47:28):** Well, absolutely. And it's a moving target, and it'll continue to move. Ken, Lucas — they've done a lot to not necessarily move away from the trade show floor buying program, but incorporate a community aspect, incorporate an outdoor environment. So there's some demo opportunities. There's a lot that is changing and, you know, a lot that still has to be done. But there's a lot of people that are focused and committed to doing it and understand the realities of it.

You see how other trade organizations evolve — ASA, essentially ICAST, and EFTA or EFTTEX, the European Fishing Organization. That's not an easy prospect. There's a lot to be done and there's a lot of moving parts, but we're moving in a good direction. Again, trying to get the message out that this is why AFFTA exists, this is what it does for the members, this is how participating in a trade show — not calling it a trade show, but, for lack of better articulation — this is what can benefit a manufacturer, a retailer, a guide, or a lodge operation.

**Marvin Cash (48:39):** Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned you were on several boards. Do you want to kind of let folks know what you do on the board and also kind of what you want to accomplish during your tenure on the board at AFFTA?

**Nick Conklin (48:51):** Sure. So presently I'm the chair of the Show and Summit Committee. So we are responsible for the fall show, which is the Confluence now, formerly IFTD, and the spring gathering, which is a little bit more industry-focused. It revolved originally around the Jim Range National Casting Call, which had a very important and critical role in terms of conservation. And what we call the Hill Walk — meeting with congressmen and congresswomen in Washington, D.C. I'm also a member of the membership committee and most recently the finance committee — the people that hold the purse strings.

My goals are kind of immaterial, but the focus I at least entered with is, how do we make the trade component beneficial to manufacturers of various sizes? With my experience at TFO, not every company is a massive $100 million or $300 million organization. There are a lot of companies in the fly fishing space that are mid-range to smaller and deserve a voice and deserve to be involved. And they need to have an opportunity to participate and have a show booth and whatever level of program or pre-season buying they're at — let them be involved. And it shouldn't be an organization just run by the big players.

So a lot of individual goals, but more importantly, getting other companies involved. And if a physical presence at a show doesn't necessarily fit the company, there's other ways to support it and participate, but also get your name out there, get dealer attention. So a lot relative to the show committee — membership-wise, finance-wise, it's how do we grow the membership base in a meaningful way? What are we providing our members? And is this a reasonable expense for a manufacturer, for a retailer, for a guide, for a lodge operation? So a lot that goes into that, but the tide is turning there. And again, it's about making it meaningful for the members and the companies and the guides that put their money forward. What are we doing for them and how are we articulating that message?

**Marvin Cash (51:19):** Yeah, got it. And before I let you go — we decided we weren't going to talk about lacrosse — but I just wanted to check and see if there's anything else you wanted to share with our listeners.

**Nick Conklin (51:34):** Well, outside of lacrosse and the MCLA championships that are down here in the Hill Country in Texas — I guess to catch up there — oh, a lot of new products coming from TFO. As we discussed, end of June and end of July will be a good, exciting year. Again, evolving a lot of things and making very thoughtful, conscious decisions on how we evolve certain products and move things forward.

Have an exciting book project coming up. That's kind of fun. Going to work with a close friend of mine that's been in the industry for a number of years — a book focused on fishing pressured waters in the West. So I've gotten a lot of good advice from Jason Randall and a number of other Stackpole-published authors. So it'll be coming down the pipe here hopefully in the next couple of months.

**Marvin Cash (52:32):** Very, very cool. We'll be on the lookout for that — you'll have to come back and tell us about it, we can talk book stuff. But before I let you go, why don't you let folks know the best way to get in touch with you and folks at TFO, and to kind of keep up with your adventures and TFO's adventures on and off the water?

**Nick Conklin (52:46):** Well, absolutely. So best way to reach TFO is just through our Instagram, through our Facebook. tforods.com is the website. I've got a personal page — swing4steel — unfortunately I haven't caught a lot of steelhead recently so you have to excuse that part of it. But tforods.com is probably the best way to keep an eye on what's going on in terms of rod and reel design and what we've got coming down the pipe here.

**Marvin Cash (53:19):** Well, there you go. Well, Nick, I appreciate you taking a little bit of time out of your evening to talk to me.

**Nick Conklin (53:24):** Absolutely. Thank you very much.

**Marvin Cash (53:24):** You bet. Have a great one.

**Marvin Cash (53:30):** Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Again, if you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. Tight lines, everybody.