S4, Ep 30: An Evening with Guide Dustin White

**Marvin Cash (00:04):**
Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. On this episode, I'm joined by guide Dustin White of Steelhead Alley Outfitters and Crazy Rainbow Fly Fishing. Dustin shares his fly fishing journey and the travails and rewards of guiding more than 200 days a year. I think you're really going to enjoy this one. But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out. And a shout out to this episode's sponsor. This episode is sponsored by our friends at Nor-vise. Their motto is, tie better flies faster, and they produce the only vise that truly spins. To see for yourself, if you're in the Detroit area on March 12th or 13th, stop by the Nor-vise booth at the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo. If you miss them there, check out their April show appearances at www.nor-vice.com. Now, on to our interview. Well, Dustin, welcome to The Articulate Fly.

**Dustin White (01:09):**
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really grateful to be able to chat with you.

**Marvin Cash (01:12):**
Yeah, I'm looking forward to our time together, and we have a tradition on The Articulate Fly. We always ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

**Dustin White (01:21):**
Yeah, so mine's kind of conflated because my parents had me on the water basically as a toddler. So there's like two or three different distinct memories I have around three or four years old. But I think the first that I actually had was my mom took me catfishing. My mom used to take me catfishing as a young lad. And so I can recall being three years old and catching my first channel cat. And that was a lot of fun. And growing up in the Midwest, that was something that was always at our disposal.

And my mom also did drafting for a private aircraft company. And so the owner of the company would, at four years old, drag me into these puddle jumpers. And we would go from water to water and pretty inaccessible places. And not only would he let me take the stick, so to speak in the air, but Forest would show me the way around the rod at a pretty early age. So those are some of the earliest memories I have of both my parents — they were very avid anglers, still are — and had me on the water at a pretty early age.

**Marvin Cash (02:36):**
Yeah, that's pretty neat. What's your favorite catfish bait?

**Dustin White (02:40):**
Oh gosh. Whatever works, man. I mean, if we're going live bait, here where we're at in Northeast Ohio, it's hard to pass up suckers. It's pretty hard to beat that. So growing up, we did a lot of live bait fishing for catfish with suckers as the tool of choice, so to speak.

**Marvin Cash (03:04):**
Yeah, no chicken livers or dough balls like we do in the South?

**Dustin White (03:07):**
Yeah, I mean, we would, but honestly we would go and actually, and that was probably like part of the fun too, was the process of catching the bait to then catch the fish. So we would go out and catch suckers from the stream and utilize those for the catfish. So those are some really, really fond memories I have as a kid. Having both my parents showing me a good time on the water, and then that obviously translated into a passion and a career now at this point.

**Marvin Cash (03:45):**
Yeah, very neat. When did you come to the dark side of fly fishing?

**Dustin White (03:51):**
Because my family was so into fishing, we always, no matter what sort of vacation we would take, every single family vacation I grew up on involved booking some sort of guided trip. And so that just kind of came through guided trips, going out west with my family and hiring a guy to take us out on some trout waters. But it also could be, if we were in Maryland, jumping on a headboat to fish a flounder or something like that, not on the fly. So the fly fishing thing for me was a bit exotic. Growing up in Northeast Ohio, initially it was this thing that was a little exotic. It was what you did on vacation. But the typical warm water species we had, we would utilize conventional gear.

But eventually, as I got into my 20s, I really fell in love with targeting multiple species with a fly rod. First was actually carp on the fly. Just fell in love with pursuing carp on the fly, and that grew into multiple other species. So it was kind of a slow evolution, but yeah, I probably came around to it in my 20s. So later than most folks in other parts of the country, for sure.

**Marvin Cash (05:17):**
Yeah, but sooner than me, and most people don't start out with carp either.

**Dustin White (05:22):**
No, that was kind of the first go at it that I had, because that was what was an available species right in my home waters, right in our backyard. The Nimishillen Creek literally ran through my backyard growing up. The house that my wife and I bought, Nimishillen's a block away from our house, a different branch of it. But I just fell in love with targeting the native species that were within those waters and then other species that called it home as well in time. But yeah, carp was the first species on my home waters that I started to really pursue with a fly rod.

**Marvin Cash (06:05):**
Yeah, very neat. So you kind of pick up the fly rod in your 20s and obviously you're older than that now. Who are some of the folks that have mentored you on your fly fishing journey and what did they teach you?

**Dustin White (06:19):**
Yeah, for me, the early mentors were folks in my family. And so I still have what a lot of folks have, which is kind of a cliché experience of grandparents or parents telling you all of the well-rehearsed idioms of fly fishing — don't leave fish to find fish, and can't catch fish in the air, and all those sorts of quirks and quips that come along the way.

But then other folks that I encountered in the industry were colleagues of mine, friends of mine that were a few years down the road. Scott Kinsman, who was a Western guide and now in Florida, was very, very profoundly influential to me. In the last couple of years, I've been very, very fortunate to spend some time and be mentored by folks like Joe Humphreys. And Joe has just been a wealth of generosity and encouragement.

I think in many ways it goes beyond the fishing. A lot of those mentors that I've had — obviously there are things that I experienced as a young kid or even as a young adult getting into fly fishing, more the technical aspect of things. But the stuff that really has stuck with me and has been meaningful is the enrichment that comes just in spending time on the water with someone else. And those are the memories and those are the lessons that those mentorships have that you just can't put a price tag on.

But like I said, Scott Kinsman is a good friend of mine. He's a guide in Florida, now in the saltwater. And especially as I started getting into my guiding career and guiding became more and more full time, just bouncing ideas off of him, asking him questions, and having someone to pick up the phone whenever you're calling and you have a question or have a complaint or a problem to solve. Those have been the folks that have been so special to me.

**Marvin Cash (08:34):**
Yeah, very neat. And it's always interesting. It's one thing to be eaten up with fly fishing. It's another thing to want to become a guide. When did you get the guide bug?

**Dustin White (08:44):**
For me, and I think this is the case for a lot of folks, it was a gradual thing that I kind of stumbled into, simply by being a creature of haunting our local waters, and so just constantly being on the water every day and really dissecting our streams. And it became something at first where someone asks you to go fish together and you have your one fishing buddy that you go fishing with. And then eventually, hey, my cousin's wanting to go out. He's never held a fly rod before. Can I give them your number to take?

So it kind of became a little bit gradual to where you look back and you're, oh my goodness, I'm guiding these folks. And half the time you feel like you're faking it till you make it. But those opportunities kept growing and growing to where, several years ago, I was able to — I think this is my fourth or fifth season being a full-time guide now — but I had a number of years of doing it part-time on the side. So it really just grew gradually with a passion to expand and extend my own experience and the things that I loved about being enriched by what we encounter on the water to others.

And as you know as well as I do, it's infectious. And so word of mouth travels pretty quick. I did the part-time thing for a while, and then like I said, it's probably four or five seasons ago I was able to make the leap to guiding year round, which has been an adventure in and of itself.

**Marvin Cash (10:30):**
Yeah. We'll talk about that a little bit later in the interview. It's an interesting thing too, right? I wonder — did you have a different mentor group as a guide than you had when you were learning how to fly fish?

**Dustin White (10:43):**
Yeah, I definitely did. I mean, in some ways, when I was learning how to fly fish, it was kind of a group of folks locally that were piecing it together on our own, so to speak. And so kind of learning from one another and studying tapes from Joe Humphreys and Lefty and all these profound individuals who have shaped our sport, our passion. But then, yeah, as a guide, Blake Jackson out in Wyoming, who now I'm fortunate enough to not just call a mentor, not just call a friend, but also an employer — working for Blake now at this point. And as I mentioned earlier, Scott Kinsman in the Tampa area of Florida — those are folks that were profoundly influential for me in the guide realm of things.

**Marvin Cash (11:43):**
Yeah, neat. And when you say you guide year round, I mean you legitimately guide year round. How many days a year do you spend on the water?

**Dustin White (11:47):**
Yeah, I mean, officially booked days — this past year, 2021, it was 234 or 235 days that I guided on the water. And then many of the other days where you get to fish for yourself. So just about every day of the calendar year I'm on the water.

**Marvin Cash (12:08):**
Yeah, I mean it's pretty amazing. And so, just let folks know a little bit — let's start with winter steelhead. You want to kind of talk generally about what the 12 months in the life of Dustin looks like as a guide?

**Dustin White (12:17):**
Yeah. So my home water — the area of the country that I grew up on and call home — is Northeast Ohio. So we have migratory trout that we affectionately call steelhead, Great Lakes steelhead, that start entering the tributaries along the southern shores of Lake Erie early midway through the fall. But really, we start seeing big pushes of fish coming in mid to end of October. And so our steelhead season really kicks off then — in most years it's usually about the third week of October that we're kind of starting to be in full swing with trips. And that will run us all the way through up to the holidays.

Year to year it's a little different, as to whether January or February cooperates with conditions. There are some years where we can fish the whole way through both months and other years those rivers can lock up, the tributaries can ice over, and you kind of have to do a little extra effort into finding some water to fish. But then we have our spring run that usually kicks off the end of February, beginning of March. And those fish typically hang around in the water until the end of April, even the beginning part of May, before they head back into Lake Erie.

So I'm guiding our waters along the southern shore of Lake Erie, primarily between — if you think of every tributary, every river, stream, creek, even ditch that runs off of Lake Erie between Cleveland, Ohio, and Erie, Pennsylvania — you'll find steelhead in that, and we're very, very proud to guide that with Steelhead Alley Outfitters. Following that, I'll make the trek out west to Casper, Wyoming, and guide a number of different fisheries there for trophy rainbow, brown, and cutthroat trout.

**Marvin Cash (14:28):**
Yeah, and that's literally from mid-April to middle of October, right?

**Dustin White (14:31):**
Yeah. So literally my kind of departure from Wyoming is usually April 15th or so, and I'll get out to Ohio. In the last few years it's been about a two-to-three day drive. And I have about one or two days to kind of turn around and get geared up to start the season steelheading. And then April 15th or so, load up the truck and head out west. And usually by April 19th or 20th, we're running trips out west on the North Platte and Bighorn Rivers.

**Marvin Cash (15:06):**
Yeah. And so, I mean, it goes without saying that's a pretty challenging schedule. What's your secret to making it work?

**Dustin White (15:14):**
I think it's having — as you alluded to earlier, I'm not in my 20s anymore, I'm in my mid to late 30s. So it's afforded me enough of a perspective to put some guardrails up. So having a day or two blocked off each week to spend time with my wife, my family, and kind of recharge. And just having a pace and having a rhythm in it. And then having my own time to go out and fish for myself.

I think a lot of folks think that guides just fish themselves all day, and a lot of times that doesn't happen. So having those times where I can go out on the water with my wife and we can row each other around and we both fish and just having the space to recharge is pretty important. And then the change in scenery helps too. As the season starts to wane and you get a little fatigued from the grind of it, there's always the light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak, of something changing up. And that challenge in itself keeps it fresh and exciting year after year.

**Marvin Cash (16:22):**
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's interesting because when you see people like you that have longevity in the business, I mean, they have to get — for lack of a better word — really businesslike about the way they approach it or they just burn out.

**Dustin White (16:34):**
Sure. I mean, I think there's definitely that temptation for a lot of younger guys to just take every single day they can get and just go guns blazing with it. And they can burn out. And none of us are immune to this or impervious to it. You can very easily have the wrong priorities in mind. But time has afforded me the perspective to have some guardrails, have some boundaries — kind of personal boundaries — and allocating time to be able to navigate the schedule and not burn out and not even just tolerate it, but to actually enjoy it.

I tell a lot of younger guides all the time — the thing that we get to do, we're so fortunate — even on the toughest day, it's often the thing that your client has saved up maybe years to do. They've been planning and saving and allocating time and dreaming and everything else to go into that trip. And so that perspective that this is a special experience that you are getting to have on the water with folks, that in itself is so valuable in keeping it fresh, keeping it exciting, and keeping energy in it.

One of the things I remember growing up as a young kid that didn't just love fishing but loved baseball — I remember hearing a story of Joe DiMaggio and how he, even on years where the Yankees had no sort of hope of making the playoffs or being a contender, would just play with 100% of his intensity. And one day reporters asked him, Joe, why are you doing this? You're not even in contention. And he said, this might be the first and only time that someone watches me play. This might be their only experience of seeing the Yankees. And so we owe it to them, and I owe it to them for that.

And I think that made an impact on me as a young kid loving baseball, and I've tried to carry that into guiding — that this could be the first time or the last time that someone spends a day on the water. And so we're so fortunate to be able to help make a meaningful experience for them in that.

**Marvin Cash (18:55):**
Yeah, very neat. So would you say that's the secret to being a good guide, or do you think there's some other things out there too?

**Dustin White (19:00):**
Yeah, I mean, I think the number one thing is — I wake up every day and legitimately hope that I can make every person that I get to spend the day with on the water feel like they're the most important person on the planet. That obviously means that we need to be dialed into our fish. We need to know what's happening on the water, we can do our homework and be attuned to that. But ultimately, it's a vocation of people.

And I mentioned earlier, one of the mentors I had in getting involved in guiding was Scott Kinsman. And he told me my first year guiding — the difference between a good guide and a bad guide is a good guide can make a bad day fun. You can't always control the conditions, can't always control the bite, can't always control what happens there. But we can prioritize people and our clients and having a good time. So I think that's the secret to being a good guide. There's plenty of really incredibly fishy guides that are frankly unpleasant to be around for one of many reasons. But if you can be fishy and enjoyable to be around, that's the secret there.

**Marvin Cash (20:25):**
Very cool. And it's funny too. I always like to ask all of my guide guests to share what they think the biggest misconception is that folks have about the life of a fishing guide.

**Dustin White (20:35):**
Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of those circulating. I think from my experience, what strikes me is when a client asks you, like, well, what goes into being a guide? What's a day in the life of a guide look like? And I think a lot of folks are surprised that the day is not a nine to five. It is up and out of the door off time — you know, four in the morning — meeting your clients pretty early, getting everything rigged, having your lunches prepared and ready to go, spending the day on the water.

And then chances are if you've had a good day on the water and you've caught that fish of a lifetime, if you've had some laughs or if you need to lick your wounds, a lot of times folks are going to want to share a beer with you or something afterwards. And so very, very often a client will ask you to hang around and chat for a bit, or maybe go to the local watering hole to process the day. So it's not even done when you're down the ramp. And then back home at the end of the day, you're calling your clients for the following day, getting things ready to go. And then time flies for the night — you know, getting that fly box restocked and ready to go for the next day. So it's a long day. But again, the experiences that you have there make it worthwhile.

**Marvin Cash (22:00):**
Yeah, very cool. And we talked earlier — you're really just getting ready to kind of jump into spring steelhead season for Steelhead Alley Outfitters. How did you get hooked up with those guys?

**Dustin White (22:13):**
Again, because it's my home water, I mean, they are — I was initially guiding solo as an independent guide for a while. And just rubbing shoulders and reached out. And it was a pretty informal sort of connection to them. But the camaraderie was there and knowing that these are home waters, this is the place that we love so much and the fish that we love so much. It was a pretty natural fit.

And then once coming on, it really is a family. And so the whole ethos of the company is people first and building on that a value of conservation and taking care of the fishery and seeing that passion and that care and building our clients — it's super cool to be a part of. So it just kind of came from being in the same neck of the woods, me knowing of SAO just from being around here and reaching out. And it's been just an incredible match.

**Marvin Cash (23:25):**
Yeah, I mean, I fished with you guys last fall. You can see and feel the results of the chemistry and the guide team.

**Dustin White (23:33):**
Yeah. I mean, it really does feel like a family. And I think you just said it right. There's a chemistry there. And everyone has a different element that they bring to the table. And there's no sort of rogue heroes. There's no quote unquote quarterback of the team. We're all in there for each other's success on the water because that means that our clients are going to have the best day possible.

And like I said, it goes beyond the water. I mean, there's times — there's a life event that we're celebrating — and we all show up and we embrace that with one another. And there's times of pain and loss and we show up and we support one another. So it's a really great family. It's a great group to guide with and be able to work with one another and bring folks out on the water for a pretty memorable experience.

**Marvin Cash (24:26):**
Yeah, very neat. And so tell us — most people when they think steelhead, they think about fall and winter. But tell us a little bit about the spring steelhead season and how those fish are different from your fall-winter fish.

**Dustin White (24:38):**
Yeah. I actually think they tend to be a little more aggressive. And especially in Ohio, as kind of the season progresses from a fall run of steelhead to winter and spring, those fish tend to push a little further and further west. And so if you book the trip with us, say in the fall or even the winter, there's a good chance we're going to primarily be fishing in Pennsylvania. But as that season progresses, you kind of start to see more and more of our trips working towards the state line of Ohio and PA and then even more westerly.

And so in the spring, I don't at all want to say it's easier, but you get more opportunities. And those fish coming in seem to be really, really fired up. And so they seem to be a little more supercharged. They might be a little more eager to take a fly, but to keep them on the line it's a little more challenging than in the fall. So you might not have the best landing ratios, but you'll definitely have more grabs traditionally in the spring than in the fall or the winter.

So in the fall, a lot of times if we're nymphing, it's going to feel a little more like traditional trout nymphing, a little more matching the hatch. Sometimes that water clears up quick on us and we've got to get a little buggy with them more than normally. But in the spring, they're really, really aggressive fish. They come in real fired up, real hot off the lake, and it makes for a really exciting day.

**Marvin Cash (26:13):**
Yeah, and so does that mean that they're more eager to take the streamer and to kind of take on the swing? And so you don't nymph as much in the spring, or is it still kind of a similar tactic?

**Dustin White (26:22):**
Yeah, well, we really build a day around what the client wants to experience. And we're always eager to swing a streamer and strip streamers. But in the spring, because they are spawning, they're just so keyed in on eggs coming their way. And so fishing those deep buckets where those fish are staging at can be the most productive if you are wanting to have numbers. But as you said, they're a little more aggressive. And they get a little more territorial too. They're wanting to kind of establish their area. And so stripping a big streamer or swinging a streamer through those areas in the spring can be very, very productive.

**Marvin Cash (27:14):**
Yeah, very neat. And so as we mentioned, you do that until basically the middle of April and you get in the car and head west. And you basically have until October for Crazy Rainbow Fly Fishing. And I assume that's the outfitter that's associated with Ugly Bug Fly Shop.

**Dustin White (27:29):**
Yep, yep, yep.

**Marvin Cash (27:30):**
Yeah. And so, how did you get hooked up with those guys?

**Dustin White (27:34):**
Yeah. So I had been working for another outfitter in town and kind of the same way of how I got connected with Steelhead Alley Outfitters here in Ohio. Just in proximity, we're on the water with each other every day. And we see one another every day on the water. And the guide community in the West functions as one big family. I know there are some sections of the country where it can be a bit competitive and a bit adversarial, but it's just not the culture out West. We all recognize that we're there for the same purpose. We're sharing the water, and we want to be good stewards of the water and take care of our clients. And so the guide community there is pretty small, so to speak, even though it's pretty large — if that makes sense.

So just in guiding there, I got to know the folks at the Ugly Bug and Crazy Rainbow, and Blake had extended the opportunity, and the time was ripe. And again, it's just been a wonderful fit. And in the same way that SAO here in Northeast Ohio and Pennsylvania functions as a family, the folks at Crazy Rainbow really are that as well.

**Marvin Cash (28:52):**
Very neat. And I always think that every fly shop has its own personality. What's the vibe at the Ugly Bug?

**Dustin White (29:02):**
Yeah, I mean, if you've been out west, if you've been in the Rocky Mountain region, there is an ethos. It seems to be a bit of a juxtaposition in that there is a Western laid-backness, if I could say that, but also a seriousness in getting down to business as well. So they seem like they're kind of mutually exclusive, but it's not the case. So you walk into that fly shop and you're going to feel like you've been friends with the folks in that shop forever. And there is a relaxed nature there. But when it comes down to fishing and it comes down to the time on the water, we need business. And the folks there really know their stuff and they take it seriously. And it's all about building a memory. I think the number one thing that would typify the Ugly Bug is that relationship — that you are going to feel like you have come away from that experience with a lifelong friend.

**Marvin Cash (30:02):**
Very, very cool. And for folks that haven't been lucky enough to fish in Wyoming, where do you fish?

**Dustin White (30:09):**
Yeah. So we guide about 100 miles of the North Platte River and also on the Bighorn River coming out of the Wind River Canyon up in Thermopolis. So about 100 miles of river around the Casper area and then up in Thermopolis as well, which is about an hour and a half from us. So in total, we're guiding over about 120 miles of water that are blue ribbon and gold medal trout fisheries.

**Marvin Cash (30:40):**
Very neat. And every river has its own personality. How are those fisheries different than other places out west?

**Dustin White (30:48):**
Yeah. So the first thing to know is that they're both tailwaters. So there's a lot more consistency. Whereas a lot of other rivers — if you're in Montana, if you're in Colorado, if you're out in California — runoff is a big thing. You're kind of subject to the conditions. Because of the tailwater, there's a lot more consistency to our flows. It's a lot more predictable, which enables us to have a pretty dynamite, sustainable trout fishery. Additionally, both are, as I said, blue ribbon and gold medal. So we have a lot of fish and a lot of big fish in those rivers.

**Marvin Cash (31:34):**
Yeah, very neat. I was kind of curious too — how long does it take you to shift from steelhead to trout when you get out there?

**Dustin White (31:43):**
You know, it's kind of trial by fire. So you kind of got to get thrown in. The experience we have is, in some ways, when we jump in there the rainbows are spawning. And so it seems to be in many ways a pretty even transition. The tactics are kind of similar. Obviously we're avoiding fishing on redds, and we want to protect and make sure that those fish are not abused in any way. But you have plenty of eager fish that are sitting deep in buckets and willing and ready to eat.

And the thing that we have that's so wonderful is the amount of aquatic life in rivers out there is pretty substantial. And so you can, with some observation skills, get dialed in pretty quickly into what those fish are keyed in on, what they're eating, and how to target them.

**Marvin Cash (32:52):**
Yeah, pretty neat. How long does it take you to get comfortable on the sticks again?

**Dustin White (33:00):**
At this point, I mean, comfortable — I'm comfortable kind of right out of the gate. Muscle memory and all that. And not being sore — it's about a week or so before those muscles start to not feel so fatigued or aching, so to speak. But I love rowing folks around the boat. So the comfortability is there. The muscle fatigue takes a week or two before the aches and pains go away and you're kind of in the swing of it.

**Marvin Cash (33:31):**
There you go. And if we kind of think about it, right, we kind of break the season down into thirds. So we'll just say you got your early season and your mid-season and your late season. What does that look like and what should folks expect in each of those segments?

**Dustin White (33:48):**
Yeah. So a lot of folks, when they come out, I get clients from out east that say, I want to come out and fish west. When should I book? And a lot of that is, well, what do you want to experience? If you're wanting to put a lot of fish in the net and really don't care about the tactics by which that's done, then definitely that first third of the season is the time to come. We can have some pretty prolific days if you want to put a lot of fish in the boat.

As that season progresses and we get the dog days of summer, all of a sudden a lot more tactics become employable by us. Wyoming has a pretty prolific hopper season. And so as we get into that July-August stretch of summer into September, the hopper fishing can just be dynamite. Additionally, on the Miracle Mile, which is a destination fishery along the North Platte, we have a stellar golden stonefly hatch and fishing some pretty substantial dry flies that those big rainbows want to gorge themselves on — it can be really, really dynamic.

And then as we get into the fall, the streamer fishing really picks up. Browns start migrating in to spawn from the reservoirs. The streamer fishing really picks up. And I actually think that that last third of the season can be our best dry fly fishing for those that really want to see some surface action from really, really special trout. So it offers something to everyone in terms of what they would like to experience, and it's distributed among those thirds of the season that you had remarked about.

**Marvin Cash (35:48):**
Yeah. And it's interesting — that's kind of the fishing part. But what's the best way to come and enjoy Casper in terms of how many days should they try to fish with you to give it a real shot — because every day is not great — and also what are some places to stay and cool things to do in the area?

**Dustin White (36:06):**
Yeah, I mean, if there's a group coming in, we at the Ugly Bug and Crazy Rainbow have a couple of facilities that we can host people at. So we have a lodge that's right on the river, and it sleeps 12 people. And you have access to private water to walk right out of the back door and have water that no one else can have access to, to wade fish at your disposal. Just a little bit downstream, we also have a river cabin that sleeps about four to six folks if you want something on the smaller end. But there's a number of hotels and Airbnbs and VRBOs in town that can accommodate folks as they come in.

And Casper, while relative to the rest of the country is a small town or small city, it's the second biggest city in the state of Wyoming. So even though it is relatively quite small, it has just about every amenity that someone could want in town if they're wanting to journey there. Yeah, you've got a Rib and Chop, right?

**Marvin Cash (37:27):**
Yes, we do have a Rib and Chop. And it's directly next door to the fly shop. So you can come in and get your fly box filled up and then go get your belly filled up next door.

**Dustin White (37:29):**
Yeah, man. Yeah.

**Marvin Cash (37:30):**
Yeah. Country fried steak, good stuff.

**Dustin White (37:30):**
Yeah, man. Yeah.

**Marvin Cash (37:38):**
Yeah. And so the season winds down for you in the middle of October and you head back east to SAO for fall and winter steelhead. You talked about that a little bit more, but maybe a little bit more detail about what that season looks like. Obviously you said the fish are not quite as hot, but what's it like fishing for them until — if you don't get iced out — through maybe late January, early February?

**Dustin White (37:53):**
Well, I don't mean to imply that they're not hot. I mean, any fish that's fresh and coming off the lake is going to be lightning on the end of your line. But they afford us to get a little buggier, right? A lot of times those rivers coming out of the summer are a little more temperamental. Most of our tributaries on Lake Erie — the southern shore of Lake Erie in Northeast Ohio and Pennsylvania — are a shale-based riverbed. And so as feeder creeks pour into them, the coloration of those rivers can change pretty drastically on us.

And so sometimes, yeah, we are fishing egg patterns and big and bright things those fish are keying in on because it's off color. Or it could quickly go low and clear. Much like we do out west, we're matching the hatch and identifying what sort of aquatic insects or baitfish those fish are really keyed in on. We do have a really prolific population of emerald shiners. And so smaller baitfish patterns, especially in the fall, can produce very, very well for us.

So it's fun. And additionally, Marvin, coming out of summer, a lot of folks are just really antsy to get out there and fish for steel. You've been waiting for so long. And that first run of fish — it's almost like it's the new year where we've all been waiting for it. It's this moment of celebration. And a lot of times you're seeing other anglers out on the water that you haven't seen in months. And so it's a celebratory experience for sure.

**Marvin Cash (39:43):**
Yeah. That's even before you get to walking through the woods at 5:30 in the morning with your headlamp on to get the spot you want, right?

**Dustin White (39:50):**
Yeah, exactly. And that's why sometimes we have to get there pretty early with that headlamp on, just because everyone else is real anxious to get there and get to their spot too. So the fall definitely makes for some early mornings, but for some pretty dynamic fishing as well.

**Marvin Cash (40:12):**
Yeah. It's interesting too because when you say match the hatch, I mean it's anything from like a stonefly down to probably like a size 18

**Dustin White (40:22):**
Pheasant Tail. Oh, for sure. And that can be the absolute difference between a banner day on the water or scratching your head thinking where in the world these fish are at. And I always tell folks — the biggest mistake we can make in steelheading is forgetting that at the end of the day, these fish are trout. And when we stop treating them and approaching them and targeting them like they're trout, that's the moment where we're going to really shift from being successful on the water to struggling.

**Marvin Cash (40:59):**
Yeah, very neat. And before I let you go this evening, Dustin, do you have anything else you want to share with our listeners?

**Dustin White (41:05):**
No, I'm just very, very grateful for the opportunity. And if anyone's interested in coming out on the water, either in Northeast Ohio and Pennsylvania with our Steelhead Alley Outfitters team or venturing west in the central area of Wyoming, please look us up at either Steelhead Alley Outfitters or the Ugly Bug Fly Shop and Crazy Rainbow Fly Fishing. We'd love to have you on the water and make some memories together.

**Marvin Cash (41:36):**
Yeah, absolutely. And I'll drop all the links to that and the social media stuff in the show notes. But also, how can folks follow your fishing adventures?

**Dustin White (41:46):**
Yeah, my Instagram is @dustinjameswhite. And then also if anyone would like to reach out to me via email, dustinwhiteflyfishing@gmail.com are easy ways to get a hold of me and follow all the adventures that we have traipsing around the country chasing fish. Yeah, you and Dan and Steven and all the guys and everybody else.

**Marvin Cash (42:11):**
Yeah, absolutely. Well, listen, Dustin, I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me this evening. Yeah, thanks so much. I really enjoyed it. Have a good one. You too. Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Again, if you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. Tight lines, everybody.