S8, Ep 65: Mastering the Roll Cast: Mac Brown's Essential Techniques for Challenging Waters
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How do you build a roll cast good enough to effectively fish tight, brush-choked mountain streams where there's no room for a backcast at all? On this Casting Angles installment of The Articulate Fly fly fishing podcast, host Marvin Cash and Master Casting Instructor Mac Brown of Mac Brown Fly Fish in Bryson City, North Carolina, break down what actually separates a "world class" roll cast from one anglers only think is dialed in. Mac frames the roll cast as the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free tool for the tight, overgrown trout streams typical of the Appalachians and mid-Atlantic, where casters rarely have the 15 to 20 feet of clearance needed for a conventional backcast. The conversation works through the mechanics of the shallow D loop, the critical role of a properly matched double taper fly line over a weight forward, and the anchor placement drills anglers can run in the late summer off-season before trout fishing picks back up. Mac also covers how to reposition the D loop to neutralize wind and why timing tightens up considerably when casting upstream and downstream on moving water. Whether an angler works small freestone streams in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park or any other tight, overgrown trout water, the episode offers a practical framework for turning a serviceable roll cast into a genuinely reliable one.
Key Takeaways
- How to build a genuinely long roll cast by prioritizing precise anchor placement before adding power, since consistent anchor placement handles roughly 90 percent of the battle once the cast becomes dynamic.
- Why a double taper fly line, not a weight forward, is the right gear choice for roll casting, since a weight forward's short head leaves too much thin running line at the rod tip to load the cast properly.
- How to throw a shallow D loop that occupies only 3 to 4 feet of space behind the caster, making it possible to fish brush-choked mountain streams with no conventional backcast room.
- When to set the D loop on the downwind side of the rod to turn wind from a safety and casting problem into a non-issue.
- Why timing becomes more critical on upstream and downstream roll casts, since moving water pulls the D loop away from its initial placement.
- How to use late summer off-season evenings to practice anchor placement in knee-deep water before trout season demands the skill on the water.
Techniques & Gear Covered
The episode centers on roll cast mechanics, starting with the shallow D loop: a compact, low-power pickup that occupies only 3 to 4 feet of space behind the caster rather than a full V loop, making it usable in the tight streamside brush typical of southern Appalachian trout water. Mac ties gear directly to technique, explaining why a double taper line outperforms a weight forward for roll casting, since the mass needed to load the cast sits near the rod tip rather than in a short head backed by thin running line. The conversation also covers anchor placement as a stand-alone practice skill, with Mac recommending anglers wade in knee-deep water and repeatedly set the line so the anchor lands close to a rod length away, refining accuracy independent of live fishing pressure. Additional technique notes include adjusting D loop size and forward loop size for distance and control, positioning the D loop on the downwind side of the rod for safer, easier wind management, and the added timing demands of roll casting upstream and downstream where current pulls the D loop after its initial placement.
FAQ / Key Questions Answered
What is a shallow D loop and why does it matter for trout streams?
A shallow D loop is a compact roll cast that energizes the line but backs off power quickly enough to occupy only 3 to 4 feet of space behind the caster, rather than a full V loop that might need 20 feet or more. It matters because tight, brush-lined Park and Appalachian streams rarely offer enough clearance for a conventional backcast, making the shallow D loop the tool that keeps anglers fishing productively in that water.
Why does fly line taper matter so much for a long roll cast?
A double taper line carries its mass in the belly of the line near the rod tip, which is the portion doing the work in a roll cast. A weight forward line, by contrast, has a short head followed by thin running line, so attempting a long roll cast with a weight forward often fails because there isn't enough mass positioned where it's needed to load the rod.
How should anglers handle wind when roll casting?
Mac recommends setting up the D loop on the downwind side of the rod as a simple, repeatable adjustment. This keeps the line moving away from the body rather than into it, turning wind from a safety concern and casting obstacle into a non-issue without requiring any additional technique changes.
When is the best time to practice roll cast placement?
Late summer, when water temperatures are too warm for productive trout fishing across the Southeast, is an ideal window to practice. Mac suggests wading in knee-deep water and repeatedly practicing where the anchor lands, aiming for a placement close to a rod length away, so that accuracy is dialed in before the cast needs to perform under real fishing pressure.
Why does timing become more critical on upstream and downstream roll casts?
When casting upstream or downstream rather than across the current, moving water actively pulls the D loop away from its initial placement. That added variable means anglers need tighter timing between forming the D loop and executing the forward stroke than they would casting across slower or stiller water.
Related Content
S8, Ep 49 - Mastering the Cast: Mac Brown's Insights on Shooting Line
S8, Ep 60 - The Bare Necessities: Mac Brown's Guide to Minimalist Fly Fishing Gear
S8, Ep 57 - The Power of Habit: Mac Brown's Strategies for Fishing Success
S7, Ep 20 - Practice Makes Perfect: Mac Brown on Mastering Casting Techniques
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In this Casting Angles segment of The Articulate Fly fly fishing podcast, host Marvin Cash reconnects with fly casting instructor Mac Brown of Mac Brown Fly Fish in Bryson City, North Carolina, to break down what actually makes a roll cast "world class." Mac traces the idea back to a lesson from Joe Humphreys about sequencing fundamentals correctly, then applies it to the tight, brush-choked trout streams of the Southern Appalachians and Great Smoky Mountains National Park, where there is often no room for a backcast at all. The conversation covers the mechanics of a shallow D loop for confined spaces, gear selection (Mac makes the case for double taper fly lines over weight forward tapers for roll casting), anchor placement practice, and using the downwind side of the body to manage wind safely.
EPISODE SUMMARY
Guest: Mac Brown - Fly Casting Instructor at Mac Brown Fly Fish (Bryson City, North Carolina)
In this episode: Fly Casting Instructor Mac Brown returns for another Casting Angles segment with host Marvin Cash to break down the mechanics of building a genuinely world-class roll cast. Topics include sequencing casting fundamentals correctly, adapting the roll cast to tight, brush-choked Southern Appalachian trout streams, and selecting the right fly line taper for roll casting.
Key fishing techniques covered:
- Building a shallow D loop (roughly 3-4 feet of backspace) for tight, brushy streams with no backcast room
- Managing wind safely by setting up the D loop on the downwind side of the body
- Selecting a double taper fly line over a weight forward line for effective roll casting
- Practicing precise anchor placement (nail knot landing roughly a rod length away) in off-season conditions
- Drilling upstream and downstream roll casts to manage timing as current pulls the D loop away
Location focus: Southern Appalachian trout streams, including Great Smoky Mountains National Park waters, the Nantahala River and the Tuckasegee River
Target species: Wild and stocked trout in Southern Appalachian freestone and Park streams
Equipment discussed: Double taper fly lines, Wulff Triangle Taper lines
Key questions answered:
- What actually defines a "world class" roll cast?
- Why does a double taper line work better than a weight forward line for roll casting?
- How do you build a shallow D loop for fishing tight, brush-choked streams with no backcast room?
Best for: Intermediate anglers looking to sharpen roll casting mechanics for tight, brushy Southern Appalachian trout streams
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Marvin Cash
Hey, folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly, back with another Casting Angles with the man himself, Mac Brown. Mac, how are you?
Mac Brown
I'm doing great. How are you doing, Marvin?
Marvin Cash
I'm still digging out. I was out of town, I guess, weekend before last at this point, at the Outdoor Writers Association annual meeting.And when I travel and go away like that, same thing. When I go and fish for, you know, a few days, it's always kind of takes me a little bit of time to get back in the saddle.
Mac Brown
Well, yeah, I get it. And traveling always takes time to get back in the saddle. And tell us about the. Tell us about the awards up there. Marvin, congratulations.
Marvin Cash
Oh, yeah, thanks. I. I was very fortunate this year and really appreciative.I won first place and third place in fishing in the radio podcast category and won first place in conservation. So, you know, folks, if you watch the. Watch the social media stuff over the next week or so, you'll see which episodes those were as I kind of drop.Drop those out for folks. But yeah, it's funny too, you know, watching social media.We were talking before we started recording, and our buddy Joe Humphreys turned 97 and caught his first Atlantic salmon.
Mac Brown
I know that really touched my heart when I saw that post. And just. Just to have the. The gall to go to Iceland, you know, at 97 wanting to always catch an Atlantic salmon.I just thought that was really, really cool about goal setting and meeting. Meeting your goals, you know?
Marvin Cash
Yeah. And you were saying, we were talking before you started recording. That made. I don't know why, it's kind of weird, Mac.You were hiking and you're like. That made you think about the roll cast?
Mac Brown
No, it did. So I was hiking. I gotta tell you the story.So I'm hiking up the trail in the park going up towards Clingman's Dome, and I got to thinking about something Joe told me years ago when I started doing the Furimsky shows. And he talked to me at the. At the hotel that night. Of course, we used to room together a lot back then. And he says.He goes, brownie, because he always called me Brownie.He says the whole key is this when you're teaching, because he taught the programs, you know, at Penn State for so long, Implement the proper fundamentals in the proper sequence is always the key to success.So then I thought about taking that little line and thinking about what do we do to bring this back to casting angles and, you know, setting goals like in folks, casting would be a really worthy goal.Is I started thinking about one thing I did a lot with the kids when they were small, like my boys, is to make really certain they had a world class roll cast when they were little bitty. And the reason I say that is it's the get out of jail free card.The most adaptable cast and fishing situations of, you know, variability of surroundings and things that.That's probably the number one thing that, that really somebody that's out there trying to fish, you know, however many days a year they're blessed to be able to be on the water.To say, I really want to improve that to where I've got something I can use for all these challenging, you know, places where there's not room to go to and from.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, I think it's interesting too because, you know, you know, you generally teach it like, hey, you know, you're on the bank and there's brush behind you.But I think it's, if you think about it, you know, you know, where we fish in kind of the, the Appalachians and kind of the mid Atlantic, you know, trout streams often are really, really choked. So we're not, we're just talking about like, there's no back cast space period. Right.Like, you know, you can roll cast pickup, but you don't have anywhere to send the line on the back cast. And it makes the roll cast super critical. Right?
Mac Brown
Yeah. And especially with, you know, when it gets really covered is the ability to, to have a really shallow, shallow D loop.You know, that's the hardest thing there is to teach is when we talk about shallow D loop. Like, you energize this pickup, but then we back off the power so much that we only occupy 3 to 4ft of space in back of us total.That's what we mean by shallow D loop. Of course, if there was 20ft, would take the full 20ft and throw more of a V loop if we had it.But chances are in this part of the country, we very rarely have that unless you're on like, you know, Nantahala's got more room if you're wading out in the middle or tuckaseegee. But when you're talking about the park streams, you know, in the national park, very rare, we get to do that. So.And also not just for the surroundings, but also just dealing with wind. Like, we can set up, set up these same roles.So easy to deal with wind where it's, you know, more of a safety issue of like putting it on the downwind side. It's real simple concept. You always make that on the downwind side and you don't have to worry about anything. So I don't know, it's just.I just know when I thought about this with the. When the kids were small, now they're in college and senior and high school, my boys.And then I thought about what is it one of the best things really talking about overall with all of this casting stuff, I mean, it's just. It's basically going back to what Joe's talked about of implement the proper fundamentals and the proper sequence.And that's the key to getting a world class roll cast.
Marvin Cash
Yeah. And so let's define world class roll cast because I think a lot of people think they have one and they probably don't. Right Mac?
Mac Brown
Yeah, probably. You're probably right. Yeah. Yeah. So what would it be is like the ability, like when people talk about longer roll cast, what is long?Well, that's gonna vary. If I ask a hundred people, you get a hundred different answers.But being able to send it, let's just say that and sending it doesn't mean just 20, 30ft, doesn't mean just 40ft. And it tops out. You follow me?So if you, if you play around with the goal of really perfecting the roll and you have the right type of line, of course we gotta talk a little bit about the gear with this. Cause if you got the wrong kind of line, it's not gonna work out well for you.So you wanna have like a double taper to do these kind of fishing casts with the rolls. Okay.Cause if you got a, a weight forward and you're trying to do a 50 foot roll cast and there's 20 foot of running line, it's not going to work out well because you got the wrong gear.And so that's a big reason why I think so many of us, you know, myself included, I've always been real partial to double tapers for that reason, you know. So you have the mass in the line that. Because the part that's doing all the work is the amount of line that's up near the rod tip.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, you know, it's kind of like, you know, actually I have some Wulff triangle tapers. Right. Which is kind of the. Probably the best.But if you don't want to do that, you know, to your point, you don't want that short weight forward, head on the water and then you got running line at the rod tip. Cause you're not going to go anywhere, right?
Mac Brown
That's right. Yeah. And that's, that's just a gear mismatch.So even if you're, you know, like the, the U.S. team, we talked about that a little bit before we started. They did really well in Italy this year. But yeah, just having the wrong setup would totally sabotage, you know, of the, the gift of ability.So it's a really, it's really important. It's not just a little bit important. It's. It's pretty critical that we have the right type of gear to do what we're talking about.And of course for me it's like, as long as it's a double taper, man, everything's going to be golden. Whether it's a two weight or a four weight. I mean I fish a lot of two weights. That's pretty much my preference.It's two weights, 80 grains for the first 30ft. So if it's a double taper, we've got, you know, it's still quite a bit of weight.Everybody thinks, well that's really light, but go ahead and take that. 80 Grains times three. That's still quite a bit of weight. That's 240 grains of weight.So it's pretty easy to take a two weight double taper and still send it just like you'd send it with a four or a five, you know.
Marvin Cash
Yeah. And I would say too then to me the kind of.The two other things that kind of hop to mind are the loop size on the forward cast, small versus large, and then also playing around with the size of the D loop and back. Right. Cause you know you can go dynamic, right. If you have the room and you get a really big D loop. Right?
Mac Brown
Yeah. If you have the ram, by all means take it. You know, use what you got in the course.The best way for folks to do this go to go to like this time of year especially. Cause it's still hot. Still not gonna be great trout fishing anywhere around the southeast.I mean, I know social media might say it is, but the reality is at 90 degree, no, it's not the tuck. And a lot of the rivers here are still in the upper 60s, low 70s. So you could practice this stuff in the evening. Just put some fluff on there, put a.Literally go out in the water, stand about knee deep and just start practicing where the line's gonna land for the anchor. You know, the anchor being out where the nail knot is.The amount of line you're gonna set down on the water and just sit there and precisely practice like, where are we setting this? Like There is an optimal. You know, a lot of times we wanna have that optimal close to a rod length away where the anchor lands.Of course, what's gonna happen when they practice it is. Sometimes it's gonna be way past the rod length, and sometimes it's not gonna be far enough. So. And then sometimes it's just right.And so the goal is about practicing these roles when it's off season is to start to add some perfection to where the placement is. Because that's 90% of the battle when it becomes dynamic.
Marvin Cash
Yeah, I would say, too. Another thing to practice is upstream and downstream. Right.Because timing gets really important when you basically are having your D loop taken away from you. Right.
Mac Brown
Timing gets. Yeah, I think it gets more critical.
Marvin Cash
Yeah. Cause it'll just wash away from you. So those are just some ideas, folks. Something to kind of think about as we kind of are waiting for.You know, I guess we've got what we got about five weeks before DH season kind of fires up again. Assuming it cools off enough for him to stock.
Mac Brown
That's right. Yeah. It's coming up pretty quick. And yeah, for anybody interested too, we've got a.We've got one spot left in the 19th of September in the weekend, you know, 19th and 20th. So, yeah, if you want to fix your real cast and really, really get one down, then that'd be the. A good spot to do it.
Marvin Cash
Yeah. And that's your. That's your Mastery weekend workshop, right?
Mac Brown
Yep, yep. So we're looking forward to that. I'm really. I really am looking forward to getting that started. And.Yeah, that's one of my favorite, favorite weekends pretty much of the year. Yeah.
Marvin Cash
And then we leave that. And then you got guide schools, right? Yeah.
Mac Brown
Then we go right into those in October. And of course, October's starting to pick up already with calls and things and. Yeah, I'm looking forward to.I'm just looking forward to cooler temperatures. Marvin. To be honest, it's like. Feels like I live in South Carolina now and I live in, you know, one of the coolest places in the Southeast.And it really hadn't felt that way the last few months, you know?
Marvin Cash
Yeah. It's not going to help that wood get split, is it, Mack Brown?
Mac Brown
No. And plus we got a whole bunch of wood to split for winter still. So. Yeah, I've got my chores cut out for me the next couple weeks.
Marvin Cash
Yeah. And so, you know, folks, you can learn about all of Mac's classes at macbrownflyfish.com guide trips and all that sort of stuff. Too.And, you know, I think he's probably got his 2027, you know, show schedule ironed out. He may not have it on the website yet, but, you know, folks, as always, say yo to yourself to get out there and catch a few. Tight lines, everybody.Tight lines, Mac.
Mac Brown
Tight lines.
Guide | Casting Instructor | Author
Mac Brown is the owner of Mac Brown Fly Fish and Fly Fishing Guide School in Western NC. Mac created the first full-time fly fishing guide service in Western North Carolina. The first Delayed Harvest on the Upper Nantahala River in early 1993 was also a result of his efforts.
Mac Brown is the author of “Casting Angles” which is a fly casting handbook for those on the journey of understanding the mechanics of the cast. The ACA, FFI, and others have endorsed this text as a reference for instructors as well. Mac is a Master Casting Instructor through the Fly Fishers International.
